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Posted to dev@lenya.apache.org by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org> on 2005/02/20 11:30:49 UTC
Feature list for 1.4 and beyond [was Re: vacation]
On Sat, 2005-02-19 at 20:41, Andreas Hartmann wrote:
...
>
> But this brings up the question re. the feature freeze for 1.4
> again. I guess we really need to discuss the roadmap for 1.4 and
> beyond and create a new branch if necessary.
+1. As soon as possible. I already tried that. Maybe you have more luck.
IMHO it is important to agree on a feature list for 1.4, which makes it
possible to make a first release in 2-4 months. This implies for me, 1.4
will not contain a repo.
--
Rolf Kulemann
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Re: Feature list for 1.4 and beyond [was Re: vacation]
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Rolf Kulemann wrote:
[...]
>>
>>- The new publish+deactivate implementation does not allow to schedule
>> tasks.
>
>
> Why not? What is the story behind that?
Currently the scheduler runs in a separate servlet. That's why it doesn't
have access to the Avalon service manager.
The new usecase framework is built using the Avalon framework. Usecase
handler objects are Avalon components and have access to the service manager.
This way, Cocoon services like source resolving etc. can be used.
It would probably be possible to pass the service manager to a job before
scheduling it. But a job can only use string parameters, it is not possible
to make the service manager persistent. So it won't be possible to shutdown
the servlet and have the jobs available after restarting.
The only workaround I can imagine at the moment is:
- The parameters which were used to invoke the usecase are stored in a map.
- It must be possible to invoke the usecase immediately (without displaying
a form first) using an HTTP request.
- The scheduled job executes the HTTP request using the stored parameters.
But this is quite ugly, as we need to store all parameters as strings again.
It might be easier to
- Transform the scheduler into an Avalon component. I don't yet know how
to instanciate a component on startup, but that is probably possible.
- Pass the service manager to the job when it is re-initialized.
Basically that's the problem, maybe you have some more ideas ...
-- Andreas
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Re: Feature list for 1.4 and beyond [was Re: vacation]
Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 2005-02-20 at 19:38, Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> Rolf Kulemann wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > IMHO, for 1.4 all currently started features should be scheduled and not
> > more and no new ones, but maybe less. Otherwise we will do the first 1.4
> > release next year and that is too late. That is my opinion. This also
> > should make the discussion a bit easier and less time consuming.
>
> OK, IIUC that means an immediate feature freeze for 1.4?
More or less, yes.
> This would be a good starting point for a vote.
Exactly.
>
> I have the following concerns:
>
> - I'd like to have as many usecases as possible ported to the
> usecase framework or to an appropriate flow-based solution.
> If we can get rid of the XSP+task concept, that would be a big
> step IMO.
IIRC, Gregor already ported a lot. Of course some work is left.
>
> We could probably live with the current mixture of tasks and flow-based
> usecases, but if someone could lend me a hand in refactoring the
> tasks, that would be great.
Yep. Fortunately you are not alone :)
>
>
> - The new publish+deactivate implementation does not allow to schedule
> tasks.
Why not? What is the story behind that?
> If we want to support the scheduler in 1.4, we have to transfer it
> to the Cocoon servlet. Using the cron block might be too far away, but maybe
> we can find another way to access the service manager etc. from scheduled
> tasks.
I'm not that familiar with scheduler, yet. Maybe I get some ideas, once
I have more knowledge. What is the problematic?
--
Rolf Kulemann
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Re: Feature list for 1.4 and beyond [was Re: vacation]
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Michael Wechner wrote:
> it's not a chicken and egg problem. How did Lenya 1.2 get started in the
> first place or other projects?
>
> Why should I base my publication on a release which will be broken
> within the next version again?
>
> Just because there is a release doesn't mean anything, especially if one
> needs to tell everyone better use SVN, because the release doesn't work.
>
> It's just the experience we have made in the past. And I doubt it will
> change if we make a release artificially.
?
the proposal has a well-defined scope. it is the repository that will
destabilize things greatly, and again, there is no reason whatsoever to
hold back the other useful changes while work on the repository starts.
--
Gregor J. Rothfuss
COO, Wyona Content Management Solutions http://wyona.com
Apache Lenya http://lenya.apache.org
gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com gregor@apache.org
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Re: Feature list for 1.4 and beyond [was Re: vacation]
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> Michael Wechner wrote:
>
>> Re releasing in general: Do we really want to release something which
>> nobody is using in production? I really doubt that makes a lot of sense!
>
>
> you do realize the chicken and egg situation here, do you
it's not a chicken and egg problem. How did Lenya 1.2 get started in the
first place or other projects?
Why should I base my publication on a release which will be broken
within the next version again?
Just because there is a release doesn't mean anything, especially if one
needs to tell everyone better use SVN, because the release doesn't work.
It's just the experience we have made in the past. And I doubt it will
change if we make a release artificially.
Michi
>
>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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Re: Feature list for 1.4 and beyond [was Re: vacation]
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Michael Wechner wrote:
> Re releasing in general: Do we really want to release something which
> nobody is using in production? I really doubt that makes a lot of sense!
you do realize the chicken and egg situation here, do you
--
Gregor J. Rothfuss
COO, Wyona Content Management Solutions http://wyona.com
Apache Lenya http://lenya.apache.org
gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com gregor@apache.org
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Re: Feature list for 1.4 and beyond [was Re: vacation]
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>
>>> IMHO, for 1.4 all currently started features should be scheduled and
>>> not
>>> more and no new ones, but maybe less. Otherwise we will do the first
>>> 1.4
>>> release next year and that is too late. That is my opinion. This also
>>> should make the discussion a bit easier and less time consuming.
>>
>
> +1
>
> we should definitely finish the usecase conversion, but not start new
> areas of work, like the repository.
didn't we agree to do the data abstraction layer long time ago?
IIRC then the Lenya sprint nearly one year ago was all about Repository.
I think we should definitely update the roadmap
http://lenya.apache.org/roadmap.html
and try to stick to goals we agreed on or at least re-discuss them.
Re releasing in general: Do we really want to release something which
nobody is using in production? I really doubt that makes a lot of sense!
Michi
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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Re: Feature list for 1.4 and beyond [was Re: vacation]
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>> IMHO, for 1.4 all currently started features should be scheduled and not
>> more and no new ones, but maybe less. Otherwise we will do the first 1.4
>> release next year and that is too late. That is my opinion. This also
>> should make the discussion a bit easier and less time consuming.
+1
we should definitely finish the usecase conversion, but not start new
areas of work, like the repository.
> OK, IIUC that means an immediate feature freeze for 1.4?
> This would be a good starting point for a vote.
>
> I have the following concerns:
>
> - I'd like to have as many usecases as possible ported to the
> usecase framework or to an appropriate flow-based solution.
> If we can get rid of the XSP+task concept, that would be a big
> step IMO.
>
> We could probably live with the current mixture of tasks and flow-based
> usecases, but if someone could lend me a hand in refactoring the
> tasks, that would be great.
we definitely should finish that. the big tasks are as i wrote a couple
weeks ago, revision control and access to tasks. at the time, i proposed
we write a task wrapper to use tasks with the usecases. it would be
better of course to get rid of tasks altogether, but it may be easier to
have a wrapper first.
> - The new publish+deactivate implementation does not allow to schedule
> tasks. If we want to support the scheduler in 1.4, we have to transfer it
> to the Cocoon servlet. Using the cron block might be too far away, but
> maybe
> we can find another way to access the service manager etc. from scheduled
> tasks.
i think i sent an email pointing out that the cron block now has
persistence (via jdbc). that of course only takes care of the job
persistance, and does not solve the "how to trigger usecases" problem.
--
Gregor J. Rothfuss
COO, Wyona Content Management Solutions http://wyona.com
Apache Lenya http://lenya.apache.org
gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com gregor@apache.org
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Re: Feature list for 1.4 and beyond [was Re: vacation]
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Rolf Kulemann wrote:
[...]
> IMHO, for 1.4 all currently started features should be scheduled and not
> more and no new ones, but maybe less. Otherwise we will do the first 1.4
> release next year and that is too late. That is my opinion. This also
> should make the discussion a bit easier and less time consuming.
OK, IIUC that means an immediate feature freeze for 1.4?
This would be a good starting point for a vote.
I have the following concerns:
- I'd like to have as many usecases as possible ported to the
usecase framework or to an appropriate flow-based solution.
If we can get rid of the XSP+task concept, that would be a big
step IMO.
We could probably live with the current mixture of tasks and flow-based
usecases, but if someone could lend me a hand in refactoring the
tasks, that would be great.
- The new publish+deactivate implementation does not allow to schedule
tasks. If we want to support the scheduler in 1.4, we have to transfer it
to the Cocoon servlet. Using the cron block might be too far away, but maybe
we can find another way to access the service manager etc. from scheduled
tasks.
-- Andreas
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Re: Feature list for 1.4 and beyond [was Re: vacation]
Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 2005-02-20 at 17:51, Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> Rolf Kulemann wrote:
> > On Sat, 2005-02-19 at 20:41, Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> > ...
> >
> >>But this brings up the question re. the feature freeze for 1.4
> >>again. I guess we really need to discuss the roadmap for 1.4 and
> >>beyond and create a new branch if necessary.
> >
> >
> > +1. As soon as possible. I already tried that. Maybe you have more luck.
> >
> > IMHO it is important to agree on a feature list for 1.4, which makes it
> > possible to make a first release in 2-4 months. This implies for me, 1.4
> > will not contain a repo.
>
> Maybe we can use http://wiki.apache.org/lenya/1_2e4 to collaborate a
> consolidated version of the roadmap. The current state of the page is
> rather a wishlist than a roadmap.
Ok.
>
> After a certain time, we could start a vote using the Wiki page as the
> proposed feature list for 1.4. That would probably mean voting on
> single features, I assume we won't agree on a complete list.
Exactly, see my comments below.
>
> When the feature list is determined by evaluating the single features,
> we declare a feature freeze and open a new branch. Of course this would
> imply the danger that someone agrees on single features, but not on the
> final list, but I guess we have to live with that.
>
> WDYT?
IMHO, for 1.4 all currently started features should be scheduled and not
more and no new ones, but maybe less. Otherwise we will do the first 1.4
release next year and that is too late. That is my opinion. This also
should make the discussion a bit easier and less time consuming.
1.x with x > 4 is another thing.
--
Rolf Kulemann
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Re: Feature list for 1.4 and beyond [was Re: vacation]
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Rolf Kulemann wrote:
> On Sat, 2005-02-19 at 20:41, Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> ...
>
>>But this brings up the question re. the feature freeze for 1.4
>>again. I guess we really need to discuss the roadmap for 1.4 and
>>beyond and create a new branch if necessary.
>
>
> +1. As soon as possible. I already tried that. Maybe you have more luck.
>
> IMHO it is important to agree on a feature list for 1.4, which makes it
> possible to make a first release in 2-4 months. This implies for me, 1.4
> will not contain a repo.
Maybe we can use http://wiki.apache.org/lenya/1_2e4 to collaborate a
consolidated version of the roadmap. The current state of the page is
rather a wishlist than a roadmap.
After a certain time, we could start a vote using the Wiki page as the
proposed feature list for 1.4. That would probably mean voting on
single features, I assume we won't agree on a complete list.
When the feature list is determined by evaluating the single features,
we declare a feature freeze and open a new branch. Of course this would
imply the danger that someone agrees on single features, but not on the
final list, but I guess we have to live with that.
WDYT?
-- Andreas
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