Re: Cocoon Marketing Position

[Ovidiu Predescu <ov...@cup.hp.com>]

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 14:26:21 +0200, Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org> wrote:

> giacomo wrote:
> 
> > You can have a look at it using http://fw.otego.com/demoshop/
> 
> If we enter the 'pet shop' marketing arena, we might find ourselves
> having to fight J2EE from one side and .NET from the other.
> 
> *this* is exactly the marketing and technical pressure that I don't
> think we can affort to stand at this very moment.

Yes, I agree with you. We are not yet ready to compete with all the
other technologies. Besides code, we need some a good practices
document. But for this to happen we need to collect all the current
methodologies for doing Web app development. People get really
confused after they read the documentation available, but don't know
how to start developing their own application. So a collection of all
the methodologies available is a must. I'm afraid however there are
just too many ways of doing things, which might hurt us in the end.

> First of all, without Cocoon Blocks, we can't stand their usability, so
> I would not even try to compete.

Yes, this is a real must! The lack of a nice way to start a new
application is the biggest hurdle users encounter when starting
developing their own application on top of Cocoon.

> Second: I'd rather market Cocoon as an awesome glue technology than a
> "new" way of doing stuff compared to J2EE or .NET. Cocoon can be used to
> create SOAP web services using J2EE technology. It will also be possible
> to turn a web service into a web application, and also glue advanced
> publishing and report functionalities.

Agree. We shouldn't position ourselves as yet another way of doing
applications, but instead we should leverage and integrate all the
other Java and J2EE technologies. I don't think we can talk about .Net
integration yet, as there are just too many things going on in that
area.

> In short, instead of a competitive tagline 'use Cocoon instead of J2EE
> or .NET' (which would eventually emerge out of a Cocoon Pet Shop demo),
> we should do something different 'no matter what you what to do with
> your web, Cocoon will help you doing it better'. [please, excuse the
> shitty marketing tone, but we are talking about vapor anyway]

I strongly believe this is the right message we should send.

Regards,
-- 
Ovidiu Predescu <ov...@cup.hp.com>
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/7464/ (GNU, Emacs, other stuff)

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org

Re: Cocoon Marketing Position

["Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>]

Ovidiu Predescu wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Apr 2002 14:26:21 +0200, Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>>giacomo wrote:
>>
>>>You can have a look at it using http://fw.otego.com/demoshop/
>>>
>>If we enter the 'pet shop' marketing arena, we might find ourselves
>>having to fight J2EE from one side and .NET from the other.
>>
>>*this* is exactly the marketing and technical pressure that I don't
>>think we can affort to stand at this very moment.
>>
>
>Yes, I agree with you. We are not yet ready to compete with all the
>other technologies. Besides code, we need some a good practices
>document. 
>
agreed

>But for this to happen we need to collect all the current
>methodologies for doing Web app development. People get really
>
disagree, we only need to tell them 1 or 2 RightWays (tm) to do it.

>
>confused after they read the documentation available, but don't know
>how to start developing their own application. So a collection of all
>the methodologies available is a must. I'm afraid however there are
>just too many ways of doing things, which might hurt us in the end.
>
partially agree.  Show them a path and let them find their own shortcuts 
and scenic routes.  You only need to demonstrate the use.

>
>Agree. We shouldn't position ourselves as yet another way of doing
>applications, but instead we should leverage and integrate all the
>other Java and J2EE technologies. I don't think we can talk about .Net
>integration yet, as there are just too many things going on in that
>area.
>
partially agree.  I mean JSP is a J2EE technology.  Would one not wish 
to use an alernative in a "best practices" example?  (like one that 
sucked less)

>
>>In short, instead of a competitive tagline 'use Cocoon instead of J2EE
>>or .NET' (which would eventually emerge out of a Cocoon Pet Shop demo),
>>we should do something different 'no matter what you what to do with
>>your web, Cocoon will help you doing it better'. [please, excuse the
>>shitty marketing tone, but we are talking about vapor anyway]
>>
>
>I strongly believe this is the right message we should send.
>
Thats nice but you need examples of "how"


>
>Regards,
>




---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org

Re: Cocoon Marketing Position

[Uli Mayring <ul...@denic.de>]

On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:

> Ulrich Mayring wrote:
> >
> > The strange thing is that in the days of Cocoon1 we were ready to
> > compete, simply because no other vendor had any tools to speak of (with
> > a few $$$ exceptions). Struts didn't really amount to much back then, so
> > they must have done something right to get where they are today.
>
> I disagree. I don't see how Cocoon1 was better than Cocoon2 for web
> applications.

I didn't say in absolute terms. But compared to the competition then and
now Cocoon1 did better. First results were quick to come by, simple web
apps were easy to build.

> Anyway don't forget one thing: as a publishing framework, we kick all
> the asses we can find, on the commercial world as well.

Yes, but to no avail. My impression is that companies don't want/need a
publishing framework, they want/need a CMS. And once they have that, the
publishing framework is usually included and Cocoon cannot be integrated.

I tried to push for Cocoon in our company, but the users outside of the
software dev department didn't want a piece of it. They want a nice GUI to
manage their content painlessly.

Ulrich

-- 
Ulrich Mayring
DENIC eG, Softwareentwicklung


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org

Re: Cocoon Marketing Position

[Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>]

Ulrich Mayring wrote:
> 
> Ovidiu Predescu wrote:
> >
> > Yes, I agree with you. We are not yet ready to compete with all the
> > other technologies.
> 
> The strange thing is that in the days of Cocoon1 we were ready to
> compete, simply because no other vendor had any tools to speak of (with
> a few $$$ exceptions). Struts didn't really amount to much back then, so
> they must have done something right to get where they are today.

I disagree. I don't see how Cocoon1 was better than Cocoon2 for web
applications.

Anyway don't forget one thing: as a publishing framework, we kick all
the asses we can find, on the commercial world as well.

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------



---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org

Re: Cocoon Marketing Position

[Ulrich Mayring <ul...@denic.de>]

Ovidiu Predescu wrote:
> 
> Yes, I agree with you. We are not yet ready to compete with all the
> other technologies.

The strange thing is that in the days of Cocoon1 we were ready to
compete, simply because no other vendor had any tools to speak of (with
a few $$$ exceptions). Struts didn't really amount to much back then, so
they must have done something right to get where they are today.

Ulrich

-- 
Ulrich Mayring
DENIC eG, Systementwicklung

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, email: cocoon-dev-help@xml.apache.org