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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Peter Kovacs <le...@gmail.com> on 2016/12/03 12:21:49 UTC
[discussion] Roadmap for Open Office
Hello all,
I thought a little. There were some people claiming that they want to
help. But then wrote nothing more. I think if you come here, with the
will to fight alone through all the mess, you will give up fast because
you have no Idea what your next step is. I personally do not have the
Problem, since I have a plan what I want to do. However I think this is
not true for a lot of people.
I would like to get us a bit organized. Get people work to do, while
giving everyone the freedom the need / claim in order to advance.
So I suggest to keep Bugzilla as Bugtracker, and use Jira as a Todo
backlog List type. I love Agile methology. Never came to use it thought,
because companies can not deal well if there is no timeframe. But I
think for us its perfect.
This is something that might be small sounding, but there are lots of
tasks involved. We collect all the necessary tasks List them up, and
offer them on the TODO Bazar (The Backlog).
Volunteers can take the task from there, and solve it. It gets
introduced into our trunc. If task is fullfilled, we generate a release
out of it.
I do not have an example ready. But maybe just roughly the signing issue:
# EPIC: Signing in MAC
## Extend build tool with sign task
## build Online certificate vault plus client
## Test system
Some thing like this. Maybe a bit more detailed, best Idea would be that
no task takes more then estimated 12h to accomplish.
If we manage to chop tasks into small pieces like this It is easy to wor
through the tasks.
What do you think? Is this nuts? What are your thoughts?
I think if we have such a roadmap, we can go also on public and have
something to talk about. I think it would make our Project a lot more
lovely.
All the best
Peter
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Re: [discussion] Roadmap for Open Office
Posted by Carl Marcum <cm...@apache.org>.
On 12/06/2016 01:39 AM, Peter Kovacs wrote:
> I have created a page on the Confluence Wiki
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Roadmap
>
>
> I made a start, with Points that came into my mind without haveing to
> check on something. I thought we have in the upper Region our Release
> Plan and the a Backlog where we simply collect Toppics which we can
> then devide and maybe add to our release plan by copy paste.
>
> I have kept every point quite short and crisp. Please feel free to add
> or change Points.
>
> As soon as I have access I would like to delete the Roadmap on Media
> wiki Page and refered Files. (->
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Features and
> http://www.openoffice.org/development/releases/ooo_roadmap.pdf )
>
>
> Maybe it would make sense to add to
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Product_Release the Releases 4.1.4
> with some rough estimate (my suggestion would be Q1 2017) and also add
> 4.2.0 with a note to be decided or something.
>
> So it is clear that we have more Releases in the pipe.
>
>
> That would clear the situation up a bit.
>
>
> All the best
>
> Peter
Hi Peter,
Thanks for the initiative.
I agree, some people may show up and need a place to find helpful tasks.
Best regards,
Carl
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Re: [discussion] Roadmap for Open Office
Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 12/06/2016 07:39 AM, schrieb Peter Kovacs:
> I have created a page on the Confluence Wiki
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Roadmap
>
> I made a start, with Points that came into my mind without haveing to
> check on something. I thought we have in the upper Region our Release
> Plan and the a Backlog where we simply collect Toppics which we can then
> devide and maybe add to our release plan by copy paste.
>
> I have kept every point quite short and crisp. Please feel free to add
> or change Points.
great, thanks for the start.
> As soon as I have access I would like to delete the Roadmap on Media
> wiki Page and refered Files. (->
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Features and
> http://www.openoffice.org/development/releases/ooo_roadmap.pdf )
Right, they are really outdated and no longer needed.
> Maybe it would make sense to add to
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Product_Release the Releases 4.1.4 with
> some rough estimate (my suggestion would be Q1 2017) and also add 4.2.0
> with a note to be decided or something.
I've added a line for 4.1.4 and 4.2.0. Let's see if this makes a
difference. ;-)
Marcus
> On 05.12.2016 22:18, Matthias Seidel wrote:
>>
>> Yes, we could use our cWiki for that...
>>
>> Apart from that, it would be a good idea to give our users a small
>> overview of what is planned for the future.
>> Maybe combined with a Christmas greeting? ;-)
>>
>> regards, Matthias
>>
>>
>> Am 04.12.2016 um 15:11 schrieb Marcus:
>>> Am 12/03/2016 01:21 PM, schrieb Peter Kovacs:
>>>> So I suggest to keep Bugzilla as Bugtracker, and use Jira as a Todo
>>>> backlog List type. I love Agile methology. Never came to use it
>>>> thought,
>>>> because companies can not deal well if there is no timeframe. But I
>>>> think for us its perfect.
>>>
>>> we have already so many tools that some of us still don't know any of
>>> them. So, it won't help us when we have just another tool to document
>>> some tasks. We should use our Wiki like we do for other tasks.
>>>
>>> My 2 ct.
>>>
>>> Marcus
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Re: [discussion] Roadmap for Open Office
Posted by Peter Kovacs <le...@gmail.com>.
I have created a page on the Confluence Wiki
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Roadmap
I made a start, with Points that came into my mind without haveing to
check on something. I thought we have in the upper Region our Release
Plan and the a Backlog where we simply collect Toppics which we can then
devide and maybe add to our release plan by copy paste.
I have kept every point quite short and crisp. Please feel free to add
or change Points.
As soon as I have access I would like to delete the Roadmap on Media
wiki Page and refered Files. (->
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Features and
http://www.openoffice.org/development/releases/ooo_roadmap.pdf )
Maybe it would make sense to add to
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Product_Release the Releases 4.1.4 with
some rough estimate (my suggestion would be Q1 2017) and also add 4.2.0
with a note to be decided or something.
So it is clear that we have more Releases in the pipe.
That would clear the situation up a bit.
All the best
Peter
On 05.12.2016 22:18, Matthias Seidel wrote:
>
> Yes, we could use our cWiki for that...
>
> Apart from that, it would be a good idea to give our users a small
> overview of what is planned for the future.
> Maybe combined with a Christmas greeting? ;-)
>
> regards, Matthias
>
>
> Am 04.12.2016 um 15:11 schrieb Marcus:
>> Am 12/03/2016 01:21 PM, schrieb Peter Kovacs:
>>> So I suggest to keep Bugzilla as Bugtracker, and use Jira as a Todo
>>> backlog List type. I love Agile methology. Never came to use it
>>> thought,
>>> because companies can not deal well if there is no timeframe. But I
>>> think for us its perfect.
>>
>> we have already so many tools that some of us still don't know any of
>> them. So, it won't help us when we have just another tool to document
>> some tasks. We should use our Wiki like we do for other tasks.
>>
>> My 2 ct.
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>>
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>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>>
>>
>
Re: [discussion] Roadmap for Open Office
Posted by Matthias Seidel <ma...@hamburg.de>.
Yes, we could use our cWiki for that...
Apart from that, it would be a good idea to give our users a small
overview of what is planned for the future.
Maybe combined with a Christmas greeting? ;-)
regards, Matthias
Am 04.12.2016 um 15:11 schrieb Marcus:
> Am 12/03/2016 01:21 PM, schrieb Peter Kovacs:
>> So I suggest to keep Bugzilla as Bugtracker, and use Jira as a Todo
>> backlog List type. I love Agile methology. Never came to use it thought,
>> because companies can not deal well if there is no timeframe. But I
>> think for us its perfect.
>
> we have already so many tools that some of us still don't know any of
> them. So, it won't help us when we have just another tool to document
> some tasks. We should use our Wiki like we do for other tasks.
>
> My 2 ct.
>
> Marcus
>
>
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>
>
Re: [discussion] Roadmap for Open Office
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
Peter Kovacs wrote:
> Also there are lots of document that describe old processes in Planing
> and so forth. We should Archive them too. However I can not move things
> to an appropriate Folder.
> So I left the Link to avoid unlinked pages.
> Can we maybe add a Open Office.org Archieve and move all the depricated
> pages there?
Sure. Why can't you move pages? Do you think it's a matter of
permissions? We can look into giving additional permissions.
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: [discussion] Roadmap for Open Office
Posted by Peter Kovacs <le...@gmail.com>.
I have now Archieved the Roadmap on the Mediawiki. It is now in a
subpage features/Archieve/OOo 3.3
And put a note out that the new Roadmap is to be found on the Confluence
Wiki.
But I have not delivered any link. Should I add it?
Also there are lots of document that describe old processes in Planing
and so forth. We should Archive them too. However I can not move things
to an appropriate Folder.
So I left the Link to avoid unlinked pages.
Can we maybe add a Open Office.org Archieve and move all the depricated
pages there?
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Re: [discussion] Roadmap for Open Office
Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 12/05/2016 09:35 PM, schrieb Peter Kovacs:
> Because I read much concern about the freedom of activity and
> meritocratic spirit of the Project. In my eyes it is not about who does
> what, but where we want to go. This has to be a common understanding.
> Nothing more, nothing less is the intent. The meritocratic workbase is
> not affected by this. If people do not agree, on a single common goal,
> then this is as okay as we agree on one vision how Open Office will change.
it's not pro or contra regarding a product roadmap. It's just where to
document this. Maybe this was not clearly enough expressed.
Marcus
> On 04.12.2016 15:11, Marcus wrote:
>> Am 12/03/2016 01:21 PM, schrieb Peter Kovacs:
>>> So I suggest to keep Bugzilla as Bugtracker, and use Jira as a Todo
>>> backlog List type. I love Agile methology. Never came to use it thought,
>>> because companies can not deal well if there is no timeframe. But I
>>> think for us its perfect.
>>
>> we have already so many tools that some of us still don't know any of
>> them. So, it won't help us when we have just another tool to document
>> some tasks. We should use our Wiki like we do for other tasks.
>>
>> My 2 ct.
> I think a Wiki is a good Documenting Platform. For tracking tasks it is
> more medicore tool in my Opinion. esspecially when it starts changeing
> all the time. And I think that will happen when topics get started and
> then delays for some reasons, while other Topics having a drive.
> Plans will have to constantly be revised and changed. On the other hand
> you are right. To get started again Wiki is as good as any other approach.
>
> @Patricia
> In my opinion the building tool is part of our Roadmap. Not only that we
> need to document things, but we also need to think to extend its
> functionality to support us in future requirements. For example the
> requirement to sign Packages as our Product to prohibit that other sites
> change our product without changing the name.
>
> Also I agree with J�rg that the Roadmap should contain tasks that this
> list is concerned about but are not necessary a programming task.
>
> # Concerning 12h period. (did not find who brought this up :) )
> What I mean is that it would be great if we could devide all activities
> in good estimate able chunks. Agile methology claims everything that an
> experienced developer estimates beyond 24h h (3 working days) of effort
> is inaccurate and there is a high propability that something has been
> forgotten.
>
> Thanks for you feedback! I will overhaul now our outdated Roadmaps, and
> start a base for a new Roadmap.
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Re: [discussion] Roadmap for Open Office
Posted by Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>.
On 12/5/2016 12:35 PM, Peter Kovacs wrote:
...
> # Concerning 12h period. (did not find who brought this up :) )
> What I mean is that it would be great if we could devide all activities
> in good estimate able chunks. Agile methology claims everything that an
> experienced developer estimates beyond 24h h (3 working days) of effort
> is inaccurate and there is a high propability that something has been
> forgotten.
...
There are important, even essential, tasks that cannot be handled in
neat, tidy, estimatable chunks.
I am trying to simultaneously learn AOO internals and analyze a bug.
Debug on a very large body of unfamiliar, long-maintained code is a
messy process. I have done it intermittently for decades, and still
don't know a way to make it clean and tidy. I usually know what to do
for the current step, but the next step will depend on its results.
It is less a matter of "something has been forgotten" than of "most of
the necessary knowledge is not yet known".
It would be great if we could divide **some** activities in good
estimatable chunks. I just don't think aiming for "all" makes sense. On
the other hand, the tasks that can be handled in tidy pieces are exactly
the ones relatively inexperienced contributors should be starting on.
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Re: [discussion] Roadmap for Open Office
Posted by Peter Kovacs <le...@gmail.com>.
Hi All,
Because I read much concern about the freedom of activity and
meritocratic spirit of the Project. In my eyes it is not about who does
what, but where we want to go. This has to be a common understanding.
Nothing more, nothing less is the intent. The meritocratic workbase is
not affected by this. If people do not agree, on a single common goal,
then this is as okay as we agree on one vision how Open Office will change.
On 04.12.2016 15:11, Marcus wrote:
> Am 12/03/2016 01:21 PM, schrieb Peter Kovacs:
>> So I suggest to keep Bugzilla as Bugtracker, and use Jira as a Todo
>> backlog List type. I love Agile methology. Never came to use it thought,
>> because companies can not deal well if there is no timeframe. But I
>> think for us its perfect.
>
> we have already so many tools that some of us still don't know any of
> them. So, it won't help us when we have just another tool to document
> some tasks. We should use our Wiki like we do for other tasks.
>
> My 2 ct.
I think a Wiki is a good Documenting Platform. For tracking tasks it is
more medicore tool in my Opinion. esspecially when it starts changeing
all the time. And I think that will happen when topics get started and
then delays for some reasons, while other Topics having a drive.
Plans will have to constantly be revised and changed. On the other hand
you are right. To get started again Wiki is as good as any other approach.
@Patricia
In my opinion the building tool is part of our Roadmap. Not only that we
need to document things, but we also need to think to extend its
functionality to support us in future requirements. For example the
requirement to sign Packages as our Product to prohibit that other sites
change our product without changing the name.
Also I agree with J�rg that the Roadmap should contain tasks that this
list is concerned about but are not necessary a programming task.
# Concerning 12h period. (did not find who brought this up :) )
What I mean is that it would be great if we could devide all activities
in good estimate able chunks. Agile methology claims everything that an
experienced developer estimates beyond 24h h (3 working days) of effort
is inaccurate and there is a high propability that something has been
forgotten.
Thanks for you feedback! I will overhaul now our outdated Roadmaps, and
start a base for a new Roadmap.
All the best
Peter
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Re: [discussion] Roadmap for Open Office
Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 12/03/2016 01:21 PM, schrieb Peter Kovacs:
> So I suggest to keep Bugzilla as Bugtracker, and use Jira as a Todo
> backlog List type. I love Agile methology. Never came to use it thought,
> because companies can not deal well if there is no timeframe. But I
> think for us its perfect.
we have already so many tools that some of us still don't know any of
them. So, it won't help us when we have just another tool to document
some tasks. We should use our Wiki like we do for other tasks.
My 2 ct.
Marcus
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Re: [discussion] Roadmap for Open Office
Posted by Raphael Bircher <rb...@gmail.com>.
Hi Peter, *
Am 12/3/2016 um 1:21 PM schrieb Peter Kovacs:
> Hello all,
>
> I thought a little. There were some people claiming that they want to
> help. But then wrote nothing more. I think if you come here, with the
> will to fight alone through all the mess, you will give up fast
> because you have no Idea what your next step is. I personally do not
> have the Problem, since I have a plan what I want to do. However I
> think this is not true for a lot of people.
> I would like to get us a bit organized. Get people work to do, while
> giving everyone the freedom the need / claim in order to advance.
This can be one reason. An other one could be, that they see, that all
is more complicated as they expect, and they give up.. It's a common
thing, that a much more people offer help than realy jump in.
>
> So I suggest to keep Bugzilla as Bugtracker, and use Jira as a Todo
> backlog List type. I love Agile methology. Never came to use it
> thought, because companies can not deal well if there is no timeframe.
> But I think for us its perfect.
>
> This is something that might be small sounding, but there are lots of
> tasks involved. We collect all the necessary tasks List them up, and
> offer them on the TODO Bazar (The Backlog).
Listing where we working on, is a good idea. But also keep in mind, that
everyone deside on there own if what they do
> Volunteers can take the task from there, and solve it. It gets
> introduced into our trunc. If task is fullfilled, we generate a
> release out of it.
>
> I do not have an example ready. But maybe just roughly the signing issue:
> # EPIC: Signing in MAC
> ## Extend build tool with sign task
> ## build Online certificate vault plus client
> ## Test system
>
> Some thing like this. Maybe a bit more detailed, best Idea would be
> that no task takes more then estimated 12h to accomplish.
> If we manage to chop tasks into small pieces like this It is easy to
> wor through the tasks.
I believe 12h task is unrealistic
>
> What do you think? Is this nuts? What are your thoughts?
> I think if we have such a roadmap, we can go also on public and have
> something to talk about. I think it would make our Project a lot more
> lovely.
At least, I think, OpenOffice stays OpenOffice. It's big, complicated
and not a smart project for programmer. It's mor a challange as fun. But
there are people who search the challenge and they are right here.
Regards Raphael
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Re: [discussion] Roadmap for Open Office
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
Hello,
> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:leginee@gmail.com]
> I thought a little. There were some people claiming that they want to
> help. But then wrote nothing more. I think if you come here, with the
> will to fight alone through all the mess, you will give up
> fast because
> you have no Idea what your next step is. I personally do not have the
> Problem, since I have a plan what I want to do. However I
> think this is
> not true for a lot of people.
> I would like to get us a bit organized. Get people work to do, while
> giving everyone the freedom the need / claim in order to advance.
>
> So I suggest to keep Bugzilla as Bugtracker, and use Jira as a Todo
> backlog List type. I love Agile methology. Never came to use
> it thought,
> because companies can not deal well if there is no timeframe. But I
> think for us its perfect.
>
> This is something that might be small sounding, but there are lots of
> tasks involved. We collect all the necessary tasks List them up, and
> offer them on the TODO Bazar (The Backlog).
> Volunteers can take the task from there, and solve it. It gets
> introduced into our trunc. If task is fullfilled, we generate
> a release
> out of it.
>
> I do not have an example ready. But maybe just roughly the
> signing issue:
> # EPIC: Signing in MAC
> ## Extend build tool with sign task
> ## build Online certificate vault plus client
> ## Test system
>
> Some thing like this. Maybe a bit more detailed, best Idea
> would be that
> no task takes more then estimated 12h to accomplish.
> If we manage to chop tasks into small pieces like this It is
> easy to wor
> through the tasks.
>
> What do you think? Is this nuts? What are your thoughts?
> I think if we have such a roadmap, we can go also on public and have
> something to talk about. I think it would make our Project a lot more
> lovely.
+1
Basically, I support your statements.
Please understand, however, that I do not want to interfere in details if these details concern the work of programmers because the project works meritocratically.
On the margins, I would like to point out that a roadmap, when it comes about, should also consider non-programming tasks.
Greetings,
Jörg
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Re: [discussion] Roadmap for Open Office
Posted by Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>.
I think there is something that comes before this. Developers need to be
able to build AOO. I think we still need more work on the step-by-step
instructions, making sure they are complete and work for all systems.
On 12/3/2016 4:21 AM, Peter Kovacs wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I thought a little. There were some people claiming that they want to
> help. But then wrote nothing more. I think if you come here, with the
> will to fight alone through all the mess, you will give up fast because
> you have no Idea what your next step is. I personally do not have the
> Problem, since I have a plan what I want to do. However I think this is
> not true for a lot of people.
> I would like to get us a bit organized. Get people work to do, while
> giving everyone the freedom the need / claim in order to advance.
>
> So I suggest to keep Bugzilla as Bugtracker, and use Jira as a Todo
> backlog List type. I love Agile methology. Never came to use it thought,
> because companies can not deal well if there is no timeframe. But I
> think for us its perfect.
>
> This is something that might be small sounding, but there are lots of
> tasks involved. We collect all the necessary tasks List them up, and
> offer them on the TODO Bazar (The Backlog).
> Volunteers can take the task from there, and solve it. It gets
> introduced into our trunc. If task is fullfilled, we generate a release
> out of it.
>
> I do not have an example ready. But maybe just roughly the signing issue:
> # EPIC: Signing in MAC
> ## Extend build tool with sign task
> ## build Online certificate vault plus client
> ## Test system
>
> Some thing like this. Maybe a bit more detailed, best Idea would be that
> no task takes more then estimated 12h to accomplish.
> If we manage to chop tasks into small pieces like this It is easy to wor
> through the tasks.
>
> What do you think? Is this nuts? What are your thoughts?
> I think if we have such a roadmap, we can go also on public and have
> something to talk about. I think it would make our Project a lot more
> lovely.
>
> All the best
> Peter
>
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Re: [discussion] Roadmap for Open Office
Posted by "Keith N. McKenna" <ke...@comcast.net>.
On 12/4/2016 2:13 PM, toki wrote:
>
>
> On 03/12/16 12:21, Peter Kovacs wrote:
>
>> But then wrote nothing more. I think if you come here, with the
>> will to fight alone through all the mess, you will give up fast because
>> you have no Idea what your next step is.
>
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Features
> http://www.openoffice.org/development/releases/ooo_roadmap.pdf
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Product_Release
Product Release was updated today. Was a simple one line addition to add
4.1.3 Release which you could have added when you saw it was missing.
>
>
> But as can be seen, they are unmaintained.
>
>
> jonathon
>
Re: [discussion] Roadmap for Open Office
Posted by toki <to...@gmail.com>.
On 03/12/16 12:21, Peter Kovacs wrote:
> But then wrote nothing more. I think if you come here, with the
> will to fight alone through all the mess, you will give up fast because
> you have no Idea what your next step is.
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Features
http://www.openoffice.org/development/releases/ooo_roadmap.pdf
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Product_Release
But as can be seen, they are unmaintained.
jonathon
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Re: [discussion] Roadmap for Open Office
Posted by Matthias Seidel <ma...@hamburg.de>.
+1 for a roadmap!
regards, Matthias
Am 03.12.2016 um 13:21 schrieb Peter Kovacs:
> Hello all,
>
> I thought a little. There were some people claiming that they want to
> help. But then wrote nothing more. I think if you come here, with the
> will to fight alone through all the mess, you will give up fast
> because you have no Idea what your next step is. I personally do not
> have the Problem, since I have a plan what I want to do. However I
> think this is not true for a lot of people.
> I would like to get us a bit organized. Get people work to do, while
> giving everyone the freedom the need / claim in order to advance.
>
> So I suggest to keep Bugzilla as Bugtracker, and use Jira as a Todo
> backlog List type. I love Agile methology. Never came to use it
> thought, because companies can not deal well if there is no timeframe.
> But I think for us its perfect.
>
> This is something that might be small sounding, but there are lots of
> tasks involved. We collect all the necessary tasks List them up, and
> offer them on the TODO Bazar (The Backlog).
> Volunteers can take the task from there, and solve it. It gets
> introduced into our trunc. If task is fullfilled, we generate a
> release out of it.
>
> I do not have an example ready. But maybe just roughly the signing issue:
> # EPIC: Signing in MAC
> ## Extend build tool with sign task
> ## build Online certificate vault plus client
> ## Test system
>
> Some thing like this. Maybe a bit more detailed, best Idea would be
> that no task takes more then estimated 12h to accomplish.
> If we manage to chop tasks into small pieces like this It is easy to
> wor through the tasks.
>
> What do you think? Is this nuts? What are your thoughts?
> I think if we have such a roadmap, we can go also on public and have
> something to talk about. I think it would make our Project a lot more
> lovely.
>
> All the best
> Peter
>
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