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Posted to dev@pdfbox.apache.org by Andreas Lehmkuehler <an...@lehmi.de> on 2015/07/26 22:00:40 UTC
PDFReader vs PDFDebugger
Hi,
I like all those new features which were added to PDFDebugger lately, as far as
I've already found them ;-)
I'm thinking about removing PDFReader as PDFDebugger is now able to render
single pages as well and it is doing it even better.
WDYT?
BR
Andreas
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Re: PDFReader vs PDFDebugger
Posted by John Hewson <jo...@jahewson.com>.
> On 26 Jul 2015, at 13:00, Andreas Lehmkuehler <an...@lehmi.de> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I like all those new features which were added to PDFDebugger lately, as far as I've already found them ;-)
>
> I'm thinking about removing PDFReader as PDFDebugger is now able to render single pages as well and it is doing it even better.
>
>
> WDYT?
Yes. PDFReader is overly complex. It's a terrible example of how to render a PDF using Swing. PDFDebugger achieves a better result in a fraction of the number of lines of code.
Given the long-standing rendering glitches in PDFReader, it's unlikely to have "production" users, so I doubt it would be missed. It's useful as a quick debugging tool, but we could (and should) easily extend PDFDebugger to serve that purpose better.
One related question is "should we offer a standalone Swing component?", personally I don't think so, firstly because Java GUIs are not so popular anymore - the demand just isn't there, and secondly because doing so is very hard to get right for a "one size fits all" approach. Smooth scrolling, multi-page views, double buffering, background rendering, etc. are needed to produce a "production-ready" experience. That's not something I have any appetite for.
It might be worth moving PDFDebugger into its own module where it can develop freely without intermingling with our public APIs in the tools module.
-- John
>
> BR
> Andreas
>
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Re: PDFReader vs PDFDebugger
Posted by John Hewson <jo...@jahewson.com>.
> On 26 Jul 2015, at 23:09, Maruan Sahyoun <sa...@fileaffairs.de> wrote:
>
>
>> Am 27.07.2015 um 07:59 schrieb John Hewson <jo...@jahewson.com>:
>>
>>
>>> On 26 Jul 2015, at 13:11, Maruan Sahyoun <sa...@fileaffairs.de> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>> Am 26.07.2015 um 22:00 schrieb Andreas Lehmkuehler <an...@lehmi.de>:
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I like all those new features which were added to PDFDebugger lately, as far as I've already found them ;-)
>>>>
>>>> I'm thinking about removing PDFReader as PDFDebugger is now able to render single pages as well and it is doing it even better.
>>>
>>> I'm not using PDFReader but the use case is different to the PDFDebugger. Shouldn't we be able to share the rendering between both and keep it?
>>
>> There isn't really any rendering code in either of these projects, it's simply a difference in how the image is presented via Swing components. These aren't compatible across the two projects due to differing GUI approaches being taken (e.g. PDFReader is a total mess).
>
> i.e. we'd need to rewrite the PDFReader?
We could do but PDFReader is so limited that it's really only useful for debugging, so PDFDebugger seems like a better place for that functionality.
> BR
> Maruan
>
>
>>
>> PDFDebugger's viewer is likely to gain further features specific to debugging, so one size does not fit all.
>>
>>> BR
>>> Maruan
>>>
>>>>
>>>> WDYT?
>>>>
>>>> BR
>>>> Andreas
>>>>
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>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pdfbox.apache.org
>>>
>>>
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Re: PDFReader vs PDFDebugger
Posted by Maruan Sahyoun <sa...@fileaffairs.de>.
> Am 27.07.2015 um 07:59 schrieb John Hewson <jo...@jahewson.com>:
>
>
>> On 26 Jul 2015, at 13:11, Maruan Sahyoun <sa...@fileaffairs.de> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>> Am 26.07.2015 um 22:00 schrieb Andreas Lehmkuehler <an...@lehmi.de>:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I like all those new features which were added to PDFDebugger lately, as far as I've already found them ;-)
>>>
>>> I'm thinking about removing PDFReader as PDFDebugger is now able to render single pages as well and it is doing it even better.
>>
>> I'm not using PDFReader but the use case is different to the PDFDebugger. Shouldn't we be able to share the rendering between both and keep it?
>
> There isn't really any rendering code in either of these projects, it's simply a difference in how the image is presented via Swing components. These aren't compatible across the two projects due to differing GUI approaches being taken (e.g. PDFReader is a total mess).
i.e. we'd need to rewrite the PDFReader?
BR
Maruan
>
> PDFDebugger's viewer is likely to gain further features specific to debugging, so one size does not fit all.
>
>> BR
>> Maruan
>>
>>>
>>> WDYT?
>>>
>>> BR
>>> Andreas
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pdfbox.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pdfbox.apache.org
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>
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Re: PDFReader vs PDFDebugger
Posted by John Hewson <jo...@jahewson.com>.
> On 26 Jul 2015, at 13:11, Maruan Sahyoun <sa...@fileaffairs.de> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>> Am 26.07.2015 um 22:00 schrieb Andreas Lehmkuehler <an...@lehmi.de>:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I like all those new features which were added to PDFDebugger lately, as far as I've already found them ;-)
>>
>> I'm thinking about removing PDFReader as PDFDebugger is now able to render single pages as well and it is doing it even better.
>
> I'm not using PDFReader but the use case is different to the PDFDebugger. Shouldn't we be able to share the rendering between both and keep it?
There isn't really any rendering code in either of these projects, it's simply a difference in how the image is presented via Swing components. These aren't compatible across the two projects due to differing GUI approaches being taken (e.g. PDFReader is a total mess).
PDFDebugger's viewer is likely to gain further features specific to debugging, so one size does not fit all.
> BR
> Maruan
>
>>
>> WDYT?
>>
>> BR
>> Andreas
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pdfbox.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pdfbox.apache.org
>
>
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Re: PDFReader vs PDFDebugger
Posted by Maruan Sahyoun <sa...@fileaffairs.de>.
Hi,
> Am 26.07.2015 um 22:00 schrieb Andreas Lehmkuehler <an...@lehmi.de>:
>
> Hi,
>
> I like all those new features which were added to PDFDebugger lately, as far as I've already found them ;-)
>
> I'm thinking about removing PDFReader as PDFDebugger is now able to render single pages as well and it is doing it even better.
>
I'm not using PDFReader but the use case is different to the PDFDebugger. Shouldn't we be able to share the rendering between both and keep it?
BR
Maruan
>
> WDYT?
>
> BR
> Andreas
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pdfbox.apache.org
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>
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Re: PDFReader vs PDFDebugger
Posted by John Hewson <jo...@jahewson.com>.
> On 27 Jul 2015, at 00:04, Tilman Hausherr <TH...@t-online.de> wrote:
>
> Am 27.07.2015 um 08:42 schrieb Tilman Hausherr:
>> Am 27.07.2015 um 08:26 schrieb John Hewson:
>>>> On 26 Jul 2015, at 13:11, Tilman Hausherr <TH...@t-online.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Am 26.07.2015 um 22:00 schrieb Andreas Lehmkuehler:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I like all those new features which were added to PDFDebugger lately, as far as I've already found them ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm thinking about removing PDFReader as PDFDebugger is now able to render single pages as well and it is doing it even better.
>>>> -1
>>>>
>>>> I've seen this coming... but although I had a part in including reader features in PDFDebugger, I think that PDFDebugger is for the professional "PDF detective", while PDFReader is to "just view" a PDF file. I.e. a newbie, when starting PDFDebugger, would be confused. PDFReader does have some small features not in PDFDebugger, like PageUp / PageDown (also implemented by my student).
>>> I don't think that there are many newbies using PDFReader, most seasoned users don't seem to know that it exists. Based on the mailing list, it seems that PDFToImage is the far more popular choice.
>>
>> That has the disadvange that it leaves image files in the directory. Even I use PDFReader to view the rendering of PDF files.
>>
>>>
>>> Here's an idea: if we switch PDFDebugger to using "View Pages" by default, it will no longer be confusing for casual users. I've found myself using this mode most of the time anyway. We can add page up/down too, of course - preferably using the actual "Page Up" and "Page Down" keys rather than the bizarre choice of the +/- keys which are currently used in PDFReader.
>>
>> Yes that would be a good idea. But don't ask student to do it, there's still a lot of regular features to implement, and don't delete PDFReader before that is done.
>
> I meant to write:
>
> Yes that would be a good idea. But don't ask my student to do it, there's still a lot of regular features to implement, and don't delete PDFReader before these improved View features in PDFDebugger are done.
I’ll add it to my “todo” list.
— John
> Tilman
>
>>
>> Tilman
>>
>>>
>>> -- John
>>>
>>>> Tilman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: PDFReader vs PDFDebugger
Posted by Tilman Hausherr <TH...@t-online.de>.
Am 27.07.2015 um 08:42 schrieb Tilman Hausherr:
> Am 27.07.2015 um 08:26 schrieb John Hewson:
>>> On 26 Jul 2015, at 13:11, Tilman Hausherr <TH...@t-online.de>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Am 26.07.2015 um 22:00 schrieb Andreas Lehmkuehler:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I like all those new features which were added to PDFDebugger
>>>> lately, as far as I've already found them ;-)
>>>>
>>>> I'm thinking about removing PDFReader as PDFDebugger is now able to
>>>> render single pages as well and it is doing it even better.
>>> -1
>>>
>>> I've seen this coming... but although I had a part in including
>>> reader features in PDFDebugger, I think that PDFDebugger is for the
>>> professional "PDF detective", while PDFReader is to "just view" a
>>> PDF file. I.e. a newbie, when starting PDFDebugger, would be
>>> confused. PDFReader does have some small features not in
>>> PDFDebugger, like PageUp / PageDown (also implemented by my student).
>> I don't think that there are many newbies using PDFReader, most
>> seasoned users don't seem to know that it exists. Based on the
>> mailing list, it seems that PDFToImage is the far more popular choice.
>
> That has the disadvange that it leaves image files in the directory.
> Even I use PDFReader to view the rendering of PDF files.
>
>>
>> Here's an idea: if we switch PDFDebugger to using "View Pages" by
>> default, it will no longer be confusing for casual users. I've found
>> myself using this mode most of the time anyway. We can add page
>> up/down too, of course - preferably using the actual "Page Up" and
>> "Page Down" keys rather than the bizarre choice of the +/- keys which
>> are currently used in PDFReader.
>
> Yes that would be a good idea. But don't ask student to do it, there's
> still a lot of regular features to implement, and don't delete
> PDFReader before that is done.
I meant to write:
Yes that would be a good idea. But don't ask my student to do it,
there's still a lot of regular features to implement, and don't delete
PDFReader before these improved View features in PDFDebugger are done.
Tilman
>
> Tilman
>
>>
>> -- John
>>
>>> Tilman
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pdfbox.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pdfbox.apache.org
>>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pdfbox.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pdfbox.apache.org
>>
>
>
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Re: PDFReader vs PDFDebugger
Posted by Tilman Hausherr <TH...@t-online.de>.
Am 27.07.2015 um 08:26 schrieb John Hewson:
>> On 26 Jul 2015, at 13:11, Tilman Hausherr <TH...@t-online.de> wrote:
>>
>>> Am 26.07.2015 um 22:00 schrieb Andreas Lehmkuehler:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I like all those new features which were added to PDFDebugger lately, as far as I've already found them ;-)
>>>
>>> I'm thinking about removing PDFReader as PDFDebugger is now able to render single pages as well and it is doing it even better.
>> -1
>>
>> I've seen this coming... but although I had a part in including reader features in PDFDebugger, I think that PDFDebugger is for the professional "PDF detective", while PDFReader is to "just view" a PDF file. I.e. a newbie, when starting PDFDebugger, would be confused. PDFReader does have some small features not in PDFDebugger, like PageUp / PageDown (also implemented by my student).
> I don't think that there are many newbies using PDFReader, most seasoned users don't seem to know that it exists. Based on the mailing list, it seems that PDFToImage is the far more popular choice.
That has the disadvange that it leaves image files in the directory.
Even I use PDFReader to view the rendering of PDF files.
>
> Here's an idea: if we switch PDFDebugger to using "View Pages" by default, it will no longer be confusing for casual users. I've found myself using this mode most of the time anyway. We can add page up/down too, of course - preferably using the actual "Page Up" and "Page Down" keys rather than the bizarre choice of the +/- keys which are currently used in PDFReader.
Yes that would be a good idea. But don't ask student to do it, there's
still a lot of regular features to implement, and don't delete PDFReader
before that is done.
Tilman
>
> -- John
>
>> Tilman
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pdfbox.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pdfbox.apache.org
>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: PDFReader vs PDFDebugger
Posted by John Hewson <jo...@jahewson.com>.
> On 26 Jul 2015, at 13:11, Tilman Hausherr <TH...@t-online.de> wrote:
>
>> Am 26.07.2015 um 22:00 schrieb Andreas Lehmkuehler:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I like all those new features which were added to PDFDebugger lately, as far as I've already found them ;-)
>>
>> I'm thinking about removing PDFReader as PDFDebugger is now able to render single pages as well and it is doing it even better.
>
> -1
>
> I've seen this coming... but although I had a part in including reader features in PDFDebugger, I think that PDFDebugger is for the professional "PDF detective", while PDFReader is to "just view" a PDF file. I.e. a newbie, when starting PDFDebugger, would be confused. PDFReader does have some small features not in PDFDebugger, like PageUp / PageDown (also implemented by my student).
I don't think that there are many newbies using PDFReader, most seasoned users don't seem to know that it exists. Based on the mailing list, it seems that PDFToImage is the far more popular choice.
Here's an idea: if we switch PDFDebugger to using "View Pages" by default, it will no longer be confusing for casual users. I've found myself using this mode most of the time anyway. We can add page up/down too, of course - preferably using the actual "Page Up" and "Page Down" keys rather than the bizarre choice of the +/- keys which are currently used in PDFReader.
-- John
> Tilman
>
>
>
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Re: PDFReader vs PDFDebugger
Posted by Tilman Hausherr <TH...@t-online.de>.
Am 26.07.2015 um 22:00 schrieb Andreas Lehmkuehler:
> Hi,
>
> I like all those new features which were added to PDFDebugger lately,
> as far as I've already found them ;-)
>
> I'm thinking about removing PDFReader as PDFDebugger is now able to
> render single pages as well and it is doing it even better.
-1
I've seen this coming... but although I had a part in including reader
features in PDFDebugger, I think that PDFDebugger is for the
professional "PDF detective", while PDFReader is to "just view" a PDF
file. I.e. a newbie, when starting PDFDebugger, would be confused.
PDFReader does have some small features not in PDFDebugger, like PageUp
/ PageDown (also implemented by my student).
Tilman
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