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Posted to users@httpd.apache.org by Ted Byers <r....@gmail.com> on 2009/12/10 20:55:20 UTC
[users@httpd] http video streaming
Presently running Apache's httpd v 2.2.9 on Windows Server (and also on XP,
but my tests in question were run on the server).
I have attempted to get httpd video streaming working by making a wvx file
pointing at the video file I want to stream. When I then point my browser
at it, the dialog asking to open media player appears, and when I click ok,
th eplayer opens immediately, but it waits until the entire file (a WMV
file) has been transferred, showing the progress of its being buffered by
the player, before it actually plays the file.
Perhaps I am misinformed, but I thought streaming video would start
immediately. What did I miss? Does the wmv file need to be constructed in
a particular way? Does a special module need to be added before http
streamed video works as I'd expected?
The thing is that I am attempting to reduce the time between when a user
clicks a link to our video and the time when it starts to play and I don't
see a benefit between the way this streaming is behaving and my original
option (make the video and deploy it to a fast host that has good bandwith),
which has the video opening on my workstation in just under 20 seconds.
So, while my test works in the sense I do see the video eventually, I see no
improvement because the client waits until the entire file has been
transfered before playing it.
Can this be improved using only the httpd server or do I have to resort to
either Adobe's streaming video server or Apple's streaming video server and
buy tools to convert ASF or WMV or mpg files into flash or quicktime files?
Thanks
Ted
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Re: [users@httpd] http video streaming
Posted by "Mark H. Wood" <mw...@IUPUI.Edu>.
What you are missing is that HTTP is not designed for AV streaming.
You need something like Helix Server or Darwin Streaming Server to do
the streaming. These implement other protocols that offer all kinds
of adaptive mechanisms to deal with the absurdity of trying to run an
isochronous medium over a packet switching network.
Then your pages can link to the right protocol and port to hit your
streamer, and pass this highly specialized buck thereto.
--
Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer mwood@IUPUI.Edu
Friends don't let friends publish revisable-form documents.
RE: [users@httpd] http video streaming
Posted by Robert Mattson <R....@latrobe.edu.au>.
Hi Ted,
I have a bit of experience as I've just set up a system to stream mp4
video files, and other hinted media.
1. The best advice I can give is to use VLC media player as the client.
It is pretty good, and when included as a plug-in for Mozilla firefox,
it's pretty darn good. Check out http://vlc.revolunet.com/ for examples
- I used the ext.us example for eye-candy value.
2. Where I set this system up, it was very important for us to maintain
open standards to avoid vendor lock-in. What is vogue today (cough,
cough, flash) may not be tomorrow (cough, cough, HTML5). So we convert
everything using mencoder on gentoo to mp4.
What you're after is a hinted media file. Hints are a section at the
header of the media file that tell the browser/decoder what timeslot is
at what byte offset. When VBR encoded files are streamed, offsets are
damn hard (impossible?) to calculate - so the whole file must be
downloaded then parsed until the correct time offset when skipping. But
if you're client is brain-dead, there is no telling what it will do.
3. I needed to stream the file from a php script to control a few things
dynamically and found this code to be of great use:
http://mu.wordpress.org/forums/topic/14757
Apache + VLC + script + mp4(with hints) = SWEEEET
Good luck,
Rob
p.s. if you're deploying streaming with VLC over https, don't forget to
put the root certificates in the correct folder. There is little / no
doco on this.
<snip />
Please consider the environment - do you really need to print this
email?
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Byers [mailto:r.ted.byers@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, 11 December 2009 6:55 AM
To: users@httpd.apache.org
Subject: [users@httpd] http video streaming
Presently running Apache's httpd v 2.2.9 on Windows Server (and also on
XP,
but my tests in question were run on the server).
I have attempted to get httpd video streaming working by making a wvx
file
pointing at the video file I want to stream. When I then point my
browser
at it, the dialog asking to open media player appears, and when I click
ok,
th eplayer opens immediately, but it waits until the entire file (a WMV
file) has been transferred, showing the progress of its being buffered
by
the player, before it actually plays the file.
Perhaps I am misinformed, but I thought streaming video would start
immediately. What did I miss? Does the wmv file need to be constructed
in
a particular way? Does a special module need to be added before http
streamed video works as I'd expected?
The thing is that I am attempting to reduce the time between when a user
clicks a link to our video and the time when it starts to play and I
don't
see a benefit between the way this streaming is behaving and my original
option (make the video and deploy it to a fast host that has good
bandwith),
which has the video opening on my workstation in just under 20 seconds.
So, while my test works in the sense I do see the video eventually, I
see no
improvement because the client waits until the entire file has been
transfered before playing it.
Can this be improved using only the httpd server or do I have to resort
to
either Adobe's streaming video server or Apple's streaming video server
and
buy tools to convert ASF or WMV or mpg files into flash or quicktime
files?
Thanks
Ted
--
View this message in context:
http://old.nabble.com/http-video-streaming-tp26733531p26733531.html
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Nabble.com.
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Re: [users@httpd] http video streaming
Posted by André Warnier <aw...@ice-sa.com>.
János Löbb wrote:
>
> On Dec 10, 2009, at 3:48 PM, André Warnier wrote:
>
>> Ted Byers wrote:
>>> Presently running Apache's httpd v 2.2.9 on Windows Server (and also
>>> on XP,
>>> but my tests in question were run on the server).
>>> I have attempted to get httpd video streaming working by making a wvx
>>> file
>>> pointing at the video file I want to stream. When I then point my
>>> browser
>>> at it, the dialog asking to open media player appears, and when I
>>> click ok,
>>> th eplayer opens immediately, but it waits until the entire file (a WMV
>>> file) has been transferred, showing the progress of its being
>>> buffered by
>>> the player, before it actually plays the file.
>> ...
>> I don't really know, and I am also interested in an authoritative answer.
>>
>> But I will dare a guess, based on what I think I know of HTTP.
>> My guess would be that streaming video (or audio) would rely on the
>> capability, both of the client and the server, to handle "range"
>> requests. The client can ask for an object, but also specify "from
>> byte x to byte y". The server then sends that part, and the client
>> starts plaing it. At the same time, the client issues more requests
>> for subsequent ranges, and the server sends these chunks, etc..
>> I guess that this must also mean that the format of the media itself
>> lends itself to it, in the sense that the information needed to play
>> the thing is sent at the beginning or with each chunk, and not at the
>> end.
>> All in all, I would thus guess that to do real streaming, both the
>> client and the server have to be rather specialised for that task.
>>
>>
>
> There is more info here: http://dss.macosforge.org/
Seems so, thanks.
Particularly this link : http://soundscreen.com/streaming/compress_hint.html
That kind of confirms that one needs specialised stuff (as opposed to
just Apache and Media Player).
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RE: [users@httpd] http video streaming
Posted by Kevin Miller <Ke...@ci.juneau.ak.us>.
Ted Byers wrote:
> I've been there, and was looking at it as a medium term option.
>
> I guess I have two followup questions for you.
>
> 1) Am I to understand, then, that your answer is that I can't do this
> with Apache's httpd server and I have to deploy Apple's open source
> streaming video server?
>
> 2) If I use mpeg-4 files, will they then stream pproperly using http
> streaming?
Haven't tried it myself, but maybe look into Icecast. It will stream ogg-theora (open source). Don't know about other formats. But with other formats you potentially have licensing issues. Or not, depending on how you're producing your videos.
Anyway, Icecast is also open source & free and may suit the bill. On other lists I've seen good reports about it...
...Kevin
--
Kevin Miller Registered Linux User No: 307357
CBJ MIS Dept. Network Systems Admin., Mail Admin.
155 South Seward Street ph: (907) 586-0242
Juneau, Alaska 99801 fax: (907 586-4500
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Re: [users@httpd] http video streaming
Posted by János Löbb <ja...@yale.edu>.
Hi Ted,
As others pointed out streaming video is using another protocol, /
RTSP/. Unless there is a mod_RTSP somewhere that can be plugged into
apache, you need a piece of software that can speak RTSP.
If You do not like Apple software, then others provided hints what to
use.
János
On Dec 10, 2009, at 6:22 PM, Ted Byers wrote:
>
> Hi Janos,
>
>
> János Löbb wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Dec 10, 2009, at 3:48 PM, André Warnier wrote:
>>
>>> Ted Byers wrote:
>>>> Presently running Apache's httpd v 2.2.9 on Windows Server (and
>>>> also on XP,
>>>> but my tests in question were run on the server).
>>>> I have attempted to get httpd video streaming working by making a
>>>> wvx file
>>>> pointing at the video file I want to stream. When I then point my
>>>> browser
>>>> at it, the dialog asking to open media player appears, and when I
>>>> click ok,
>>>> th eplayer opens immediately, but it waits until the entire file (a
>>>> WMV
>>>> file) has been transferred, showing the progress of its being
>>>> buffered by
>>>> the player, before it actually plays the file.
>>> ...
>>> I don't really know, and I am also interested in an authoritative
>>> answer.
>>>
>>> But I will dare a guess, based on what I think I know of HTTP.
>>> My guess would be that streaming video (or audio) would rely on the
>>> capability, both of the client and the server, to handle "range"
>>> requests. The client can ask for an object, but also specify "from
>>> byte x to byte y". The server then sends that part, and the client
>>> starts plaing it. At the same time, the client issues more requests
>>> for subsequent ranges, and the server sends these chunks, etc..
>>> I guess that this must also mean that the format of the media itself
>>> lends itself to it, in the sense that the information needed to play
>>> the thing is sent at the beginning or with each chunk, and not at
>>> the end.
>>> All in all, I would thus guess that to do real streaming, both the
>>> client and the server have to be rather specialised for that task.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> There is more info here: http://dss.macosforge.org/
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The official User-To-User support forum of the Apache HTTP Server
>> Project.
>> See <URL:http://httpd.apache.org/userslist.html> for more info.
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@httpd.apache.org
>> " from the digest: users-digest-unsubscribe@httpd.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@httpd.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>
> I've been there, and was looking at it as a medium term option.
>
> I guess I have two followup questions for you.
>
> 1) Am I to understand, then, that your answer is that I can't do
> this with
> Apache's httpd server and I have to deploy Apple's open source
> streaming
> video server?
>
> 2) If I use mpeg-4 files, will they then stream pproperly using http
> streaming?
>
> Thanks
>
> Ted
> --
> View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/http-video-streaming-tp26733531p26736282.html
> Sent from the Apache HTTP Server - Users mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [users@httpd] http video streaming
Posted by "Joseph M. Morgan" <jo...@hotmail.com>.
Sorry for the double post on this.. but I accidentally sent my response
in HTML...
It has more to do with the video file. I host streaming WMVs, and they
work just fine without having to completely stream. My system is Apache
2.something running on Windows XP. You don't need a special streaming
server unless you want to do something like live TV or large video
streaming...
I encode my file for WMV using Adobe Premiere Pro, but have done it with
Adobe After Effects. You probably don't need such exotic software. I
think Windows Movie Maker has an option for streaming WMV.
MPEG4 may require a plugin codec on some machines, but... now that I say
that, Safari doesn't stream WMV out of the box.
Ted Byers wrote:
> Hi Janos,
>
>
> János Löbb wrote:
>
>> On Dec 10, 2009, at 3:48 PM, André Warnier wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Ted Byers wrote:
>>>
>>>> Presently running Apache's httpd v 2.2.9 on Windows Server (and
>>>> also on XP,
>>>> but my tests in question were run on the server).
>>>> I have attempted to get httpd video streaming working by making a
>>>> wvx file
>>>> pointing at the video file I want to stream. When I then point my
>>>> browser
>>>> at it, the dialog asking to open media player appears, and when I
>>>> click ok,
>>>> th eplayer opens immediately, but it waits until the entire file (a
>>>> WMV
>>>> file) has been transferred, showing the progress of its being
>>>> buffered by
>>>> the player, before it actually plays the file.
>>>>
>>> ...
>>> I don't really know, and I am also interested in an authoritative
>>> answer.
>>>
>>> But I will dare a guess, based on what I think I know of HTTP.
>>> My guess would be that streaming video (or audio) would rely on the
>>> capability, both of the client and the server, to handle "range"
>>> requests. The client can ask for an object, but also specify "from
>>> byte x to byte y". The server then sends that part, and the client
>>> starts plaing it. At the same time, the client issues more requests
>>> for subsequent ranges, and the server sends these chunks, etc..
>>> I guess that this must also mean that the format of the media itself
>>> lends itself to it, in the sense that the information needed to play
>>> the thing is sent at the beginning or with each chunk, and not at
>>> the end.
>>> All in all, I would thus guess that to do real streaming, both the
>>> client and the server have to be rather specialised for that task.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> There is more info here: http://dss.macosforge.org/
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The official User-To-User support forum of the Apache HTTP Server Project.
>> See <URL:http://httpd.apache.org/userslist.html> for more info.
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@httpd.apache.org
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> I've been there, and was looking at it as a medium term option.
>
> I guess I have two followup questions for you.
>
> 1) Am I to understand, then, that your answer is that I can't do this with
> Apache's httpd server and I have to deploy Apple's open source streaming
> video server?
>
> 2) If I use mpeg-4 files, will they then stream pproperly using http
> streaming?
>
> Thanks
>
> Ted
>
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RE: [users@httpd] http video streaming
Posted by Boyle Owen <Ow...@six-group.com>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Byers [mailto:r.ted.byers@gmail.com]
>
> ...
>
> 1) Am I to understand, then, that your answer is that I can't
> do this with
> Apache's httpd server and I have to deploy Apple's open
> source streaming
> video server?
One way to think about it is to reflect that streaming media is not
really HTTP (which was originally designed to transfer entire files).
Streaming is yet another protocol that sits on top of TCP/IP (along with
SMTP, DNS, HTTP, etc...) The last time I looked, RTSP was the flavour of
the month (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Time_Streaming_Protocol).
In principle, you shouldn't really expect an HTTP server to deliver a
streaming media feed any more than you should expect it to receive mail.
That it apparently can be done is a bonus :-)
Rgds,
Owen Boyle
Disclaimer: Any disclaimer attached to this message may be ignored.
PS - before someone points it out, apache actually *can* receive mail!
>
> 2) If I use mpeg-4 files, will they then stream pproperly using http
> streaming?
>
> Thanks
>
> Ted
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://old.nabble.com/http-video-streaming-tp26733531p26736282.html
> Sent from the Apache HTTP Server - Users mailing list archive
> at Nabble.com.
>
>
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Re: [users@httpd] http video streaming
Posted by Ted Byers <r....@gmail.com>.
Hi Janos,
János Löbb wrote:
>
>
> On Dec 10, 2009, at 3:48 PM, André Warnier wrote:
>
>> Ted Byers wrote:
>>> Presently running Apache's httpd v 2.2.9 on Windows Server (and
>>> also on XP,
>>> but my tests in question were run on the server).
>>> I have attempted to get httpd video streaming working by making a
>>> wvx file
>>> pointing at the video file I want to stream. When I then point my
>>> browser
>>> at it, the dialog asking to open media player appears, and when I
>>> click ok,
>>> th eplayer opens immediately, but it waits until the entire file (a
>>> WMV
>>> file) has been transferred, showing the progress of its being
>>> buffered by
>>> the player, before it actually plays the file.
>> ...
>> I don't really know, and I am also interested in an authoritative
>> answer.
>>
>> But I will dare a guess, based on what I think I know of HTTP.
>> My guess would be that streaming video (or audio) would rely on the
>> capability, both of the client and the server, to handle "range"
>> requests. The client can ask for an object, but also specify "from
>> byte x to byte y". The server then sends that part, and the client
>> starts plaing it. At the same time, the client issues more requests
>> for subsequent ranges, and the server sends these chunks, etc..
>> I guess that this must also mean that the format of the media itself
>> lends itself to it, in the sense that the information needed to play
>> the thing is sent at the beginning or with each chunk, and not at
>> the end.
>> All in all, I would thus guess that to do real streaming, both the
>> client and the server have to be rather specialised for that task.
>>
>>
>
> There is more info here: http://dss.macosforge.org/
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> The official User-To-User support forum of the Apache HTTP Server Project.
> See <URL:http://httpd.apache.org/userslist.html> for more info.
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@httpd.apache.org
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>
>
>
I've been there, and was looking at it as a medium term option.
I guess I have two followup questions for you.
1) Am I to understand, then, that your answer is that I can't do this with
Apache's httpd server and I have to deploy Apple's open source streaming
video server?
2) If I use mpeg-4 files, will they then stream pproperly using http
streaming?
Thanks
Ted
--
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/http-video-streaming-tp26733531p26736282.html
Sent from the Apache HTTP Server - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [users@httpd] http video streaming
Posted by János Löbb <ja...@yale.edu>.
On Dec 10, 2009, at 3:48 PM, André Warnier wrote:
> Ted Byers wrote:
>> Presently running Apache's httpd v 2.2.9 on Windows Server (and
>> also on XP,
>> but my tests in question were run on the server).
>> I have attempted to get httpd video streaming working by making a
>> wvx file
>> pointing at the video file I want to stream. When I then point my
>> browser
>> at it, the dialog asking to open media player appears, and when I
>> click ok,
>> th eplayer opens immediately, but it waits until the entire file (a
>> WMV
>> file) has been transferred, showing the progress of its being
>> buffered by
>> the player, before it actually plays the file.
> ...
> I don't really know, and I am also interested in an authoritative
> answer.
>
> But I will dare a guess, based on what I think I know of HTTP.
> My guess would be that streaming video (or audio) would rely on the
> capability, both of the client and the server, to handle "range"
> requests. The client can ask for an object, but also specify "from
> byte x to byte y". The server then sends that part, and the client
> starts plaing it. At the same time, the client issues more requests
> for subsequent ranges, and the server sends these chunks, etc..
> I guess that this must also mean that the format of the media itself
> lends itself to it, in the sense that the information needed to play
> the thing is sent at the beginning or with each chunk, and not at
> the end.
> All in all, I would thus guess that to do real streaming, both the
> client and the server have to be rather specialised for that task.
>
>
There is more info here: http://dss.macosforge.org/
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Re: [users@httpd] http video streaming
Posted by André Warnier <aw...@ice-sa.com>.
Ted Byers wrote:
> Presently running Apache's httpd v 2.2.9 on Windows Server (and also on XP,
> but my tests in question were run on the server).
>
> I have attempted to get httpd video streaming working by making a wvx file
> pointing at the video file I want to stream. When I then point my browser
> at it, the dialog asking to open media player appears, and when I click ok,
> th eplayer opens immediately, but it waits until the entire file (a WMV
> file) has been transferred, showing the progress of its being buffered by
> the player, before it actually plays the file.
>
...
I don't really know, and I am also interested in an authoritative answer.
But I will dare a guess, based on what I think I know of HTTP.
My guess would be that streaming video (or audio) would rely on the
capability, both of the client and the server, to handle "range"
requests. The client can ask for an object, but also specify "from byte
x to byte y". The server then sends that part, and the client starts
plaing it. At the same time, the client issues more requests for
subsequent ranges, and the server sends these chunks, etc..
I guess that this must also mean that the format of the media itself
lends itself to it, in the sense that the information needed to play the
thing is sent at the beginning or with each chunk, and not at the end.
All in all, I would thus guess that to do real streaming, both the
client and the server have to be rather specialised for that task.
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