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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org> on 2014/10/27 21:33:18 UTC
Importing translations into Pootle (Re: Proposal: AOO 4.1.2)
Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
> Well I think we added all languages on Pootle where we see activities or
> interest in working on the translation. Why should we add languages
> where nobody is working on? I don't get it.
That was an example, but still it is one improvement that needs to be
done. Why? Because volunteers are much more likely to be involved if
they can have an idea of what they would be working on, and because we
can't keep volunteers waiting too much.
Concrete example: http://markmail.org/message/usn5khq3imrdibzq Sinhala
(si) was requested two weeks ago and
http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/openoffice/trunk/extras/l10n/source/si/
hasn't been imported yet. Probably you are now the only person who has
the skills and the permissions on the relevant systems to help with
this. If you take care of documenting the process in the wiki in
https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Pootle_User_Guide (or a sibling page)
this time, we may be able to delegate it the next time the need arises,
and then maybe find someone who will progressively import the SDF files
to Pootle: keeping only the SDF is really bad since one can't see
progress or submit a quick fix, and if everything is on Pootle we lower
the entry barrier.
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: Importing translations into Pootle (Re: Proposal: AOO 4.1.2)
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On 10/29/2014 01:46 AM, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
> On 28/10/14 18:07, Kay Schenk wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 10/28/2014 01:28 AM, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
>>> On 27/10/14 21:33, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
>>>> Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
>>>>> Well I think we added all languages on Pootle where we see activities or
>>>>> interest in working on the translation. Why should we add languages
>>>>> where nobody is working on? I don't get it.
>>>>
>>>> That was an example, but still it is one improvement that needs to be
>>>> done. Why? Because volunteers are much more likely to be involved if
>>>> they can have an idea of what they would be working on, and because we
>>>> can't keep volunteers waiting too much.
>>>>
>>>> Concrete example: http://markmail.org/message/usn5khq3imrdibzq Sinhala
>>>> (si) was requested two weeks ago and
>>>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/openoffice/trunk/extras/l10n/source/si/
>>>> hasn't been imported yet.
>>>
>>> The natural way would have been to submit an issue task to integrate it.
>>> I am currently don't follow the l10n list in detail and easy miss such
>>> requests that are on the mailing list only.
>>>
>>> Documenting the current process is still a to-do on my long list and
>>> it's too bad that we won't make progress with the genlang project. I
>>> believe it is dead and nobody really knows enough details to continue
>>> (probably).
>>>
>>> Anyway if somebody feels motivated to work on translation relevant task
>>> on Pootle just ask. Don't wait on me until I have documented everything.
>>> Asking directly is much more efficient.
>>>
>>> Juergen
>>
>> OK. I have some questions. How often are uploads to Pootle done? How are
>> they done? It seems people designated as Pootle admins can do this and
>> that's it. The reason I ask is we've had changes to helpcontent and
>> these were not in the content I saw on Pootle. I can't find a "time
>> stamp" for recent uploads, etc.
>
> not often it requires some work and takes some time because I do it semi
> automatic. I didn't spend much time to improve this process. I was more
> happy that it worked at all ;-) And with the promising work on genLang
> with the outlook to have continuous integration in Pootle and vice versa
> I worked around this limitations all the time.
>
> General workflow:
> - normal development work ...
> - UI deadline for a next release with UI changes
> - collect all UI relevant strings and create a new en-US sdf file
> - convert sdf -> po
> - update Pootle, merge all existing translation with the new po files
> - start translation on the new or changed strings until translation deadline
> - translation deadline -> grab the new translation from Pootle
> - convert po -> sdf -> some basic error checks against the en-US
> template -< test build -> check in in svn -> add new languages to build
> bots if necessary
>
> The last time we have updated Pootle for AOO 4.0 and after this we have
> only improved existing translation. AOO 4.0 was the last release with UI
> changes.
>
> You see the problem and that it is far from optimal. Jan and the genLang
> project were going the in the right direction. Drop the sdf file which
> is an unnecessary intermediate format from former times and not really
> necessary today. And integrate changes in the po files more frequently
> on a regular basis. And have a streamlined process to merge new
> translation back into the sources also on a regular basis.
>
> The biggest work in this project was to eliminate the sdf format and
> adapt all process to collect UI string in sdf and back to use po files
> directly. Jan did all the work in the genlang branch and I am sure if he
> get asked directly he will give some support.
>
>
> Juergen
Thanks for this explanation of the process. It is more complicated than
I had thought. I knew about the SDf intermediaries but didn't quite
understand the reasoning behind it. I will take a look at genLang and
get in touch with Jan.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Probably you are now the only person who has
>>>> the skills and the permissions on the relevant systems to help with
>>>> this. If you take care of documenting the process in the wiki in
>>>> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Pootle_User_Guide (or a sibling page)
>>>> this time, we may be able to delegate it the next time the need arises,
>>>> and then maybe find someone who will progressively import the SDF files
>>>> to Pootle: keeping only the SDF is really bad since one can't see
>>>> progress or submit a quick fix, and if everything is on Pootle we lower
>>>> the entry barrier.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Andrea.
>>>>
>>
>>
>
>
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>
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK
"One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth
to a dancing star."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Importing translations into Pootle (Re: Proposal: AOO 4.1.2)
Posted by Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@gmail.com>.
On 28/10/14 18:07, Kay Schenk wrote:
>
>
> On 10/28/2014 01:28 AM, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
>> On 27/10/14 21:33, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
>>> Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
>>>> Well I think we added all languages on Pootle where we see activities or
>>>> interest in working on the translation. Why should we add languages
>>>> where nobody is working on? I don't get it.
>>>
>>> That was an example, but still it is one improvement that needs to be
>>> done. Why? Because volunteers are much more likely to be involved if
>>> they can have an idea of what they would be working on, and because we
>>> can't keep volunteers waiting too much.
>>>
>>> Concrete example: http://markmail.org/message/usn5khq3imrdibzq Sinhala
>>> (si) was requested two weeks ago and
>>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/openoffice/trunk/extras/l10n/source/si/
>>> hasn't been imported yet.
>>
>> The natural way would have been to submit an issue task to integrate it.
>> I am currently don't follow the l10n list in detail and easy miss such
>> requests that are on the mailing list only.
>>
>> Documenting the current process is still a to-do on my long list and
>> it's too bad that we won't make progress with the genlang project. I
>> believe it is dead and nobody really knows enough details to continue
>> (probably).
>>
>> Anyway if somebody feels motivated to work on translation relevant task
>> on Pootle just ask. Don't wait on me until I have documented everything.
>> Asking directly is much more efficient.
>>
>> Juergen
>
> OK. I have some questions. How often are uploads to Pootle done? How are
> they done? It seems people designated as Pootle admins can do this and
> that's it. The reason I ask is we've had changes to helpcontent and
> these were not in the content I saw on Pootle. I can't find a "time
> stamp" for recent uploads, etc.
not often it requires some work and takes some time because I do it semi
automatic. I didn't spend much time to improve this process. I was more
happy that it worked at all ;-) And with the promising work on genLang
with the outlook to have continuous integration in Pootle and vice versa
I worked around this limitations all the time.
General workflow:
- normal development work ...
- UI deadline for a next release with UI changes
- collect all UI relevant strings and create a new en-US sdf file
- convert sdf -> po
- update Pootle, merge all existing translation with the new po files
- start translation on the new or changed strings until translation deadline
- translation deadline -> grab the new translation from Pootle
- convert po -> sdf -> some basic error checks against the en-US
template -< test build -> check in in svn -> add new languages to build
bots if necessary
The last time we have updated Pootle for AOO 4.0 and after this we have
only improved existing translation. AOO 4.0 was the last release with UI
changes.
You see the problem and that it is far from optimal. Jan and the genLang
project were going the in the right direction. Drop the sdf file which
is an unnecessary intermediate format from former times and not really
necessary today. And integrate changes in the po files more frequently
on a regular basis. And have a streamlined process to merge new
translation back into the sources also on a regular basis.
The biggest work in this project was to eliminate the sdf format and
adapt all process to collect UI string in sdf and back to use po files
directly. Jan did all the work in the genlang branch and I am sure if he
get asked directly he will give some support.
Juergen
>
>>
>>
>> Probably you are now the only person who has
>>> the skills and the permissions on the relevant systems to help with
>>> this. If you take care of documenting the process in the wiki in
>>> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Pootle_User_Guide (or a sibling page)
>>> this time, we may be able to delegate it the next time the need arises,
>>> and then maybe find someone who will progressively import the SDF files
>>> to Pootle: keeping only the SDF is really bad since one can't see
>>> progress or submit a quick fix, and if everything is on Pootle we lower
>>> the entry barrier.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Andrea.
>>>
>
>
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Re: Importing translations into Pootle (Re: Proposal: AOO 4.1.2)
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On 10/28/2014 01:28 AM, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
> On 27/10/14 21:33, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
>> Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
>>> Well I think we added all languages on Pootle where we see activities or
>>> interest in working on the translation. Why should we add languages
>>> where nobody is working on? I don't get it.
>>
>> That was an example, but still it is one improvement that needs to be
>> done. Why? Because volunteers are much more likely to be involved if
>> they can have an idea of what they would be working on, and because we
>> can't keep volunteers waiting too much.
>>
>> Concrete example: http://markmail.org/message/usn5khq3imrdibzq Sinhala
>> (si) was requested two weeks ago and
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/openoffice/trunk/extras/l10n/source/si/
>> hasn't been imported yet.
>
> The natural way would have been to submit an issue task to integrate it.
> I am currently don't follow the l10n list in detail and easy miss such
> requests that are on the mailing list only.
>
> Documenting the current process is still a to-do on my long list and
> it's too bad that we won't make progress with the genlang project. I
> believe it is dead and nobody really knows enough details to continue
> (probably).
>
> Anyway if somebody feels motivated to work on translation relevant task
> on Pootle just ask. Don't wait on me until I have documented everything.
> Asking directly is much more efficient.
>
> Juergen
OK. I have some questions. How often are uploads to Pootle done? How are
they done? It seems people designated as Pootle admins can do this and
that's it. The reason I ask is we've had changes to helpcontent and
these were not in the content I saw on Pootle. I can't find a "time
stamp" for recent uploads, etc.
>
>
> Probably you are now the only person who has
>> the skills and the permissions on the relevant systems to help with
>> this. If you take care of documenting the process in the wiki in
>> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Pootle_User_Guide (or a sibling page)
>> this time, we may be able to delegate it the next time the need arises,
>> and then maybe find someone who will progressively import the SDF files
>> to Pootle: keeping only the SDF is really bad since one can't see
>> progress or submit a quick fix, and if everything is on Pootle we lower
>> the entry barrier.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Andrea.
>>
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK
"Success breeds complacency. Complacency breeds failure.
Only the paranoid survive."
-- Andy Grove, Intel Co-founder
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Re: Importing translations into Pootle (Re: Proposal: AOO 4.1.2)
Posted by Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@gmail.com>.
On 07/11/14 23:27, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
> On 31/10/2014 Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
>> On 30/10/14 23:28, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
>>> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=125810
>> too late, now where I was aware of this request I did it already
>
> Good, thanks!
>
>>> Could at least you take screenshots while you import Sinhala? Then maybe
>>> someone else can fill in the gaps, but we really need a starting point
>>> if we want to find volunteers who can help with this.
>> Also too late, but adding a language that is already supported by Pootle
>> is straight forward and you need only admin rights.
>
> OK, so what steps should one take exactly? Most of the requests we
> receive are for languages that are already supported by Pootle, so even
> documenting just this simple case can help. Also, it would help to know
> if the needed admin rights are on the Pootle web interface or if you
> need shell access too.
The part of adding the language is trivial and you can do it via the web
interface. If we have the language in our source already it requires
more work to merge the existing sdf to the latest templates and update
the Pootle stores. For this work admin access on the VM is necessary.
Let me see if I can integrate as much as possible similar to the genLang
project where Jan imported all. But I would like to update the templates
first because it seems there were some more changes after my last update.
Juergen
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Re: Importing translations into Pootle (Re: Proposal: AOO 4.1.2)
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
On 31/10/2014 Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
> On 30/10/14 23:28, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
>> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=125810
> too late, now where I was aware of this request I did it already
Good, thanks!
>> Could at least you take screenshots while you import Sinhala? Then maybe
>> someone else can fill in the gaps, but we really need a starting point
>> if we want to find volunteers who can help with this.
> Also too late, but adding a language that is already supported by Pootle
> is straight forward and you need only admin rights.
OK, so what steps should one take exactly? Most of the requests we
receive are for languages that are already supported by Pootle, so even
documenting just this simple case can help. Also, it would help to know
if the needed admin rights are on the Pootle web interface or if you
need shell access too.
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: Importing translations into Pootle (Re: Proposal: AOO 4.1.2)
Posted by Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@gmail.com>.
On 30/10/14 23:28, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
> On 28/10/2014 Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
>> On 27/10/14 21:33, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
>>> Concrete example: http://markmail.org/message/usn5khq3imrdibzq Sinhala
>>> (si) was requested two weeks ago and
>>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/openoffice/trunk/extras/l10n/source/si/
>>> hasn't been imported yet.
>> The natural way would have been to submit an issue task to integrate it.
>
> Even though I still think that the natural way would be to have it
> already available (and even more so if this is something that we can't
> readily do upon request), here you are with the issue:
> https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=125810
too late, now where I was aware of this request I did it already and
also generate a new sdf. I am currently merging existing languages to
the new updated templates ... which takes some time
I meant the issue helps to tigger and track the work ;-)
>
>> Documenting the current process is still a to-do on my long list
>
> Could at least you take screenshots while you import Sinhala? Then maybe
> someone else can fill in the gaps, but we really need a starting point
> if we want to find volunteers who can help with this.
>
Also too late, but adding a language that is already supported by Pootle
is straight forward and you need only admin rights.
>> it's too bad that we won't make progress with the genlang project. I
>> believe it is dead and nobody really knows enough details to continue
>
> The genLang initiative is not that relevant for this. You need an
> initial import into PO files anyway, with or without genLang.
that is true but the whole roundtrip would be simplified
Juergen
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Re: Importing translations into Pootle (Re: Proposal: AOO 4.1.2)
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
On 28/10/2014 Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
> On 27/10/14 21:33, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
>> Concrete example: http://markmail.org/message/usn5khq3imrdibzq Sinhala
>> (si) was requested two weeks ago and
>> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/openoffice/trunk/extras/l10n/source/si/
>> hasn't been imported yet.
> The natural way would have been to submit an issue task to integrate it.
Even though I still think that the natural way would be to have it
already available (and even more so if this is something that we can't
readily do upon request), here you are with the issue:
https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=125810
> Documenting the current process is still a to-do on my long list
Could at least you take screenshots while you import Sinhala? Then maybe
someone else can fill in the gaps, but we really need a starting point
if we want to find volunteers who can help with this.
> it's too bad that we won't make progress with the genlang project. I
> believe it is dead and nobody really knows enough details to continue
The genLang initiative is not that relevant for this. You need an
initial import into PO files anyway, with or without genLang.
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: Importing translations into Pootle (Re: Proposal: AOO 4.1.2)
Posted by Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@gmail.com>.
On 27/10/14 21:33, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
> Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
>> Well I think we added all languages on Pootle where we see activities or
>> interest in working on the translation. Why should we add languages
>> where nobody is working on? I don't get it.
>
> That was an example, but still it is one improvement that needs to be
> done. Why? Because volunteers are much more likely to be involved if
> they can have an idea of what they would be working on, and because we
> can't keep volunteers waiting too much.
>
> Concrete example: http://markmail.org/message/usn5khq3imrdibzq Sinhala
> (si) was requested two weeks ago and
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/openoffice/trunk/extras/l10n/source/si/
> hasn't been imported yet.
The natural way would have been to submit an issue task to integrate it.
I am currently don't follow the l10n list in detail and easy miss such
requests that are on the mailing list only.
Documenting the current process is still a to-do on my long list and
it's too bad that we won't make progress with the genlang project. I
believe it is dead and nobody really knows enough details to continue
(probably).
Anyway if somebody feels motivated to work on translation relevant task
on Pootle just ask. Don't wait on me until I have documented everything.
Asking directly is much more efficient.
Juergen
Probably you are now the only person who has
> the skills and the permissions on the relevant systems to help with
> this. If you take care of documenting the process in the wiki in
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Pootle_User_Guide (or a sibling page)
> this time, we may be able to delegate it the next time the need arises,
> and then maybe find someone who will progressively import the SDF files
> to Pootle: keeping only the SDF is really bad since one can't see
> progress or submit a quick fix, and if everything is on Pootle we lower
> the entry barrier.
>
> Regards,
> Andrea.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
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Re: Importing translations into Pootle (Re: Proposal: AOO 4.1.2)
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On 10/27/2014 01:33 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
> Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
>> Well I think we added all languages on Pootle where we see activities or
>> interest in working on the translation. Why should we add languages
>> where nobody is working on? I don't get it.
>
> That was an example, but still it is one improvement that needs to be
> done. Why? Because volunteers are much more likely to be involved if
> they can have an idea of what they would be working on, and because we
> can't keep volunteers waiting too much.
>
> Concrete example: http://markmail.org/message/usn5khq3imrdibzq Sinhala
> (si) was requested two weeks ago and
> http://svn.apache.org/viewvc/openoffice/trunk/extras/l10n/source/si/
> hasn't been imported yet. Probably you are now the only person who has
> the skills and the permissions on the relevant systems to help with
> this. If you take care of documenting the process in the wiki in
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Pootle_User_Guide (or a sibling page)
> this time, we may be able to delegate it the next time the need arises,
> and then maybe find someone who will progressively import the SDF files
> to Pootle: keeping only the SDF is really bad since one can't see
> progress or submit a quick fix, and if everything is on Pootle we lower
> the entry barrier.
>
> Regards,
> Andrea.
>
We could certainly use an additional Pootle admin.
As long as we're talking about Pootle, I have a weird request. Our
"base" for translations in "en" -- I presume en-US --
and this doesn't show up in the language list for UI or Help content.
So, I can't accurately judge what the real progress is against it.
As silly as it might sound, can en-US with its character counts for UI
and Help Content be displayed?
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK
"Success breeds complacency. Complacency breeds failure.
Only the paranoid survive."
-- Andy Grove, Intel Co-founder
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