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Posted to legal-discuss@apache.org by "Karl Wright (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org> on 2012/05/29 12:40:22 UTC
[jira] [Created] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by
interrogating proprietary web services
Karl Wright created LEGAL-137:
---------------------------------
Summary: Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
Key: LEGAL-137
URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
Project: Legal Discuss
Issue Type: Question
Reporter: Karl Wright
In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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[jira] [Commented] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created
by interrogating proprietary web services
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=13288966#comment-13288966 ]
Dennis E. Hamilton commented on LEGAL-137:
------------------------------------------
@Karl
Oh no, please do not do this:
"This software includes interface descriptions generated in part from proprietary libraries licensed by Meridio, Inc., a division of Autonomy, Inc., a subsidiary of Hewlett Packard, Inc, which have been ruled to be distributable under the terms of .... (some description of the Oracle case)."
First, the wording is suspect, because the antecedant can be confused with the proprietary libraries.
But for sure, the Alsup ruling does not address redistribution and appealing to case law is not something I would expect legal@ to consider appropriate.
It may well be that the WSDL and the XSD are non-copyrightable subject matter and have always been, but saying "which have been ruled to be distributable under the terms of .... (some case)" is not appropriate and is not a legal assurance that NOTICE, LICENSE, README or anything else from an Apache project should be claiming to offer. I suspect that this is something whereof one should not speak.
> Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-137
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Karl Wright
>
> In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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[jira] [Commented] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created
by interrogating proprietary web services
Posted by "Karl Wright (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=13287031#comment-13287031 ]
Karl Wright commented on LEGAL-137:
-----------------------------------
As posted to the members list:
According to Groklaw, the judge in Oracle/Google case says "APIs can't be copyrighted"
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120531173633275
"So long as the specific code used to implement a method is different, anyone is free under the Copyright Act to write his or her own code to carry out exactly the same function or specification of any methods used in the Java API. It does not matter that the declaration or method header lines are identical. Under the rules of Java, they must be identical to declare a method specifying the same functionality — even when the implementation is different. When there is only one way to express an idea or function, then everyone is free to do so and no one can monopolize that expression. And, while the Android method and class names could have been different from the names of their counterparts in Java and still have worked, copyright protection never extends to names or short phrases as a matter of law."
> Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-137
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Karl Wright
>
> In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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[jira] [Commented] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created
by interrogating proprietary web services
Posted by "Karl Wright (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=13290100#comment-13290100 ]
Karl Wright commented on LEGAL-137:
-----------------------------------
@Sam: Agreed that I'd use "The Meridio Connector" in place of "This software".
I'm obviously not satisfied yet with the (lack of) response I've gotten trying to contact HP about this issue, so I've opened a third channel of communication in an attempt to find someone there to talk to. But if we can resolve the issue more broadly I'd think that would be of great help to the community as a whole. It's your call when and how to pursue that option.
> Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-137
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Karl Wright
>
> In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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[jira] [Commented] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created
by interrogating proprietary web services
Posted by "Karl Wright (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=13288954#comment-13288954 ]
Karl Wright commented on LEGAL-137:
-----------------------------------
bq. 1) What efforts have been made to contact the owners of this API? Do you believe that these efforts have been exhausted? If so, why do you believe that?
I have mailed a request to a friend with contacts within HP, and also to a colleague may have a current name of someone within Meridio/Autonomy/HP that would handle Meridio accounts. By no means is this channel exhausted since I have yet to find the right person to talk with within the HP organization. However, that is perhaps the biggest difficulty with this approach.
bq. 2) What ASF project is this for? Is there any evidence that likely downstream consumers of that project would be concerned by this dependency?
This is for the Meridio Connector, which is part of the ManifoldCF project. At the moment I know of one downstream consumer of this connector. As far as legal restriction/comfort goes, the question is whether Apache would violate implicit licensing by including it, not whether others would be concerned, since the project is constructed explicitly so that removal of a single connector would not impact other connectors or the framework.
bq. 3) How would this be documented (LICENSE, README)?
That is a good question. How about:
"This software includes interface descriptions generated in part from proprietary libraries licensed by Meridio, Inc., a division of Autonomy, Inc., a subsidiary of Hewlett Packard, Inc, which have been ruled to be distributable under the terms of .... (some description of the Oracle case)."
> Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-137
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Karl Wright
>
> In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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[jira] [Commented] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created
by interrogating proprietary web services
Posted by "Karl Wright (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=13285949#comment-13285949 ]
Karl Wright commented on LEGAL-137:
-----------------------------------
I have taken steps already to contact HP, who is the owner of the services in question.
Regardless, in my view the analogy with HTTP fetching web-site content is somewhat flawed. The protocol in your case is retrieving the site's content in unmodified form. In the case we are describing, the disco utility is obtaining machine-readable specifications for how to access the service as a library, and since the service was constructed in the .NET framework, we can presume it was meant to be accessed as such. I may be naive but to me this is similar to IDL descriptions of a module that would be available for integrators and would be licensed accordingly.
> Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-137
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Karl Wright
>
> In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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[jira] [Commented] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created
by interrogating proprietary web services
Posted by "Karl Wright (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=13286556#comment-13286556 ]
Karl Wright commented on LEGAL-137:
-----------------------------------
bq. Well, have you ASKED the original service authors to run the command to get the wsdl, stick a small copyright or license header on it, and then attach it to a JIRA or something to donate it to the project?
As I said before, I *have* asked. Still waiting for a response.
> Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-137
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Karl Wright
>
> In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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[jira] [Commented] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created
by interrogating proprietary web services
Posted by "Sam Ruby (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=13289015#comment-13289015 ]
Sam Ruby commented on LEGAL-137:
--------------------------------
Given the answer Karl gave to #2, I don't think this will be a problem. I'll see what Aaron of the SFLC thinks and report back.
By the way on #3, I would suggest "The Meridio Connector" in place of "This software".
> Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-137
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Karl Wright
>
> In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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[jira] [Commented] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created
by interrogating proprietary web services
Posted by "Sam Ruby (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=13286572#comment-13286572 ]
Sam Ruby commented on LEGAL-137:
--------------------------------
re: "other implementors of the standard"... is this a standard? The title of this JIRA implied that this interface is considered proprietary by the owner.
re: "Maybe a java impl that could have a java2wsdl run on it?". I don't think the proper question is one of what tool could be used to produce the output. I think the question is more along the lines of "are such APIs copyrightable?" (the answer to that question seems unclear these days), and independent of the answer to that question: do the authors of this interface consider it to be proprietary?
> Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-137
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Karl Wright
>
> In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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[jira] [Commented] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created
by interrogating proprietary web services
Posted by "Benson Margulies (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=13295225#comment-13295225 ]
Benson Margulies commented on LEGAL-137:
----------------------------------------
Does the following impress anyone? WSDL and XSD files are textual files that can contain comments, and, thus, license and IP notices. If the source of one of these wished to grant a license, or assert some rights, they could be expected to put a notice in the comments. In the absence of this, it can be treated like anything you find lying about.
> Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-137
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Karl Wright
> Assignee: Sam Ruby
>
> In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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[jira] [Commented] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created
by interrogating proprietary web services
Posted by "Daniel Kulp (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=13286561#comment-13286561 ]
Daniel Kulp commented on LEGAL-137:
-----------------------------------
Uhg... HP... missed that... Good luck.
If it's a standard, are there other implementors of the standard that may also have a WSDL available? Maybe a java impl that could have a java2wsdl run on it?
> Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-137
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Karl Wright
>
> In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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[jira] [Assigned] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created
by interrogating proprietary web services
Posted by "Sam Ruby (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:all-tabpanel ]
Sam Ruby reassigned LEGAL-137:
------------------------------
Assignee: Sam Ruby
> Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-137
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Karl Wright
> Assignee: Sam Ruby
>
> In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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[jira] [Resolved] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created
by interrogating proprietary web services
Posted by "Sam Ruby (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:all-tabpanel ]
Sam Ruby resolved LEGAL-137.
----------------------------
Resolution: Fixed
Karl: feel free to proceed as you have described. Doesn't sound like it is a problem, and in the unlikely event that is a problem to someone, they will receive sufficient notice and can simply opt to not use that one connector.
> Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-137
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Karl Wright
> Assignee: Sam Ruby
>
> In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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[jira] [Commented] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created
by interrogating proprietary web services
Posted by "Karl Wright (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=13295243#comment-13295243 ]
Karl Wright commented on LEGAL-137:
-----------------------------------
Benson: Since WSDLs and XSDs on .NET are not explicitly shipped by the service providers, and are instead "discovered" by use of the disco.exe utility, there is no opportunity for the service provider to protect such information by including a textual copyright.
> Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-137
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Karl Wright
> Assignee: Sam Ruby
>
> In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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[jira] [Commented] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created
by interrogating proprietary web services
Posted by "Sam Ruby (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=13295242#comment-13295242 ]
Sam Ruby commented on LEGAL-137:
--------------------------------
@Benson: I really don't think that we want to get into a discussion about implied copyright licenses. In particular, the default for "anything you find lying about" is likely to be "you can't use it here". In this case, however, the intent is to interoperate, the scope of the code affected is contained, and a reasonable attempt was made to get a express license.
> Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-137
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Karl Wright
> Assignee: Sam Ruby
>
> In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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[jira] [Commented] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created
by interrogating proprietary web services
Posted by "Sam Ruby (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=13288917#comment-13288917 ]
Sam Ruby commented on LEGAL-137:
--------------------------------
Based on Judge Alsup's ruling, I'm prepared to forward this for review to ASF Legal Counsel. Before that is done, help in gathering three things would be helpful.
1) What efforts have been made to contact the owners of this API? Do you believe that these efforts have been exhausted? If so, why do you believe that?
2) What ASF project is this for? Is there any evidence that likely downstream consumers of that project would be concerned by this dependency?
3) How would this be documented (LICENSE, README)?
Note: I am not intending for any of these questions to be a particularly high bar. If there is evidence that you made a reasonable effort to contact the owner, you discussed it within the project and nobody objected, and plan to document it in a way that would unlikely to be overlooked, in my opinion that would be sufficient to forward this matter to Legal Counsel.
> Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-137
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Karl Wright
>
> In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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[jira] [Commented] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created
by interrogating proprietary web services
Posted by "Daniel Kulp (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=13286553#comment-13286553 ]
Daniel Kulp commented on LEGAL-137:
-----------------------------------
Well, have you ASKED the original service authors to run the command to get the wsdl, stick a small copyright or license header on it, and then attach it to a JIRA or something to donate it to the project? All questions would be eliminated by doing that and may be doable fairly quickly.
> Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-137
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Karl Wright
>
> In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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[jira] [Commented] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created
by interrogating proprietary web services
Posted by "Karl Wright (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=13288976#comment-13288976 ]
Karl Wright commented on LEGAL-137:
-----------------------------------
@Dennis - thanks for the advice. Let's try again then:
"This software includes application interface descriptions generated in part from proprietary libraries licensed by Meridio, Inc., a division of Autonomy, Inc., a subsidiary of Hewlett Packard, Inc."
This leaves it to the reader to understand the legal licensing requirements (or lack thereof) for application interface descriptions.
> Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-137
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Karl Wright
>
> In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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[jira] [Commented] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created
by interrogating proprietary web services
Posted by "Karl Wright (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=13286597#comment-13286597 ]
Karl Wright commented on LEGAL-137:
-----------------------------------
Sam, you are correct that this is a proprietary service but not a standard (AFAIK, anyhow).
> Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-137
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Karl Wright
>
> In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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[jira] [Commented] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created
by interrogating proprietary web services
Posted by "Sam Ruby (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=13285938#comment-13285938 ]
Sam Ruby commented on LEGAL-137:
--------------------------------
I'm skeptical that that would be sufficient in itself.
To draw an analogy: on the web any URI can be interrogated to get a representation of the resource using HTTP GET using a Unix tool called "curl". Can the content returned by such a tool be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
My guess is that the answer will be "it depends", and you would need to either contact the owner of the service or find out where that service is licensed.
> Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-137
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Karl Wright
>
> In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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[jira] [Commented] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created
by interrogating proprietary web services
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=13288944#comment-13288944 ]
Dennis E. Hamilton commented on LEGAL-137:
------------------------------------------
@Sam Ruby,
It is not clear to me what bearing the Alsup ruling on the copyrightability of expressions related to the JAVA APIs has on the subject of this JIRA issue. (I find groklaw an unreliable source and the interpretation given there seems broader than the scope of the actual ruling.)
Despite that (and FWiW), I support the approach you propose.
We should also keep in mind that Alsup was careful to anticipate that his determination may be over-turned on appeal and the issue about structure-sequence-organization of APIs (whatever that means exactly) is not yet settled. We should be as cautious as he is, simply being careful without being paralyzed.
> Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-137
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Karl Wright
>
> In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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[jira] [Commented] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created
by interrogating proprietary web services
Posted by "Sam Ruby (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=13285954#comment-13285954 ]
Sam Ruby commented on LEGAL-137:
--------------------------------
The analogy may very well be flawed. I am also aware of a high profile case which is ongoing that hinges on whether APIs are copyrightable.
In any case, while I remain skeptical, if there is sufficient reason to believe that it might be possible and this is important to an ASF project, I can forward this onto one of our legal resources (most likely the SFLC), I just don't want to do so if the likelihood is small that the answer will be a yes.
> Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-137
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Karl Wright
>
> In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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[jira] [Commented] (LEGAL-137) Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created
by interrogating proprietary web services
Posted by "Karl Wright (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=13286529#comment-13286529 ]
Karl Wright commented on LEGAL-137:
-----------------------------------
The alternative is a clean-room implementation of a WSDL, which when you get right down to it is not very easy or reassuring because effectively the spec is a summary of what's in the WSDL, just not in XML form. So for the sake of software sanity I hope there is a sensible resolution to this problem.
> Ownership of WSDLs and XSDs created by interrogating proprietary web services
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-137
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-137
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Karl Wright
>
> In the .NET framework, any service can be interrogated to find its Web Services API (represented by a set of WSDL and XSD files), using a .NET tool called "disco.exe". My question pertains to the ownership (or lack thereof) of such WSDLs and XSDs. Can these be redistributed in original or modified form in an Apache project?
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