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Posted to dev@community.apache.org by Herbert Duerr <hd...@apache.org> on 2012/06/01 13:50:29 UTC
Re: Can the one proposing a vote cast his vote?
Hi,
I was wondering how other projects under the ASF umbrella handle the
question, whether the one calling a vote should always stay neutral or
whether he should be allowed to cast his vote.
Or is it assumed that the one proposing a vote automatically approves
his proposal with a +1?
I had found http://s.apache.org/IqE from the Avalon project that
summarizes the voting process very well. My particular question wasn't
answered in it though, so I discussed that topic with Ross Gardler,
where he gave some good advise and allowed me to share it:
> You should vote. Unless you formally record your vote it will not be
> counted.
>
> In some cases other factors might make your impartiality questionable,
> e.g. you may be nominating a new committee who is a work colleague. In
> such circumstances you may choose to declare your relationship when you
> make the nomination or when you vote. However, since everyone is an
> individual in the ASF this is not required.
>
> If there is a genuine conflict of interest you need to recuse yourself
> from the vote. This might happen in circumstances such as requesting PMC
> approval of the projects trademarks for an event sponsored by your employer.
Are there additional criteria one should consider or are there any other
opinions on this topic?
Herbert
RE: Can the one proposing a vote cast his vote?
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
Yes, I agree that the Robert's Rules of Order don't apply to a PMC chair, who might or might not adopt such a practice for personal reasons. I mentioned the conventional chairperson practice by way of contrast.
In accordance with the Apache Way, it appears to me that [P]PMC deliberations are under a "committee of the whole" principle.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Nóirín Plunkett [mailto:noirin@apache.org]
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 23:16
To: dennis.hamilton@acm.org; dev@community.apache.org
Subject: RE: Can the one proposing a vote cast his vote?
On Jun 3, 2012 8:50 PM, "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>
wrote:
>
> The only odd case about votes is typically when someone is sitting as a
chairperson. In general, chairpersons (having not recused themselves) MAY
vote when the vote cast makes a difference in the outcome, but SHALL NOT
vote at any other time. The chairperson is expected to remain neutral and
only in the particular close case the chairperson may (but need not) cast a
decisive vote. I believe that is the rule that governs the conduct of the
Vice President of the United States when sitting as the chairperson of the
US Senate.
>
This shouldn't apply in an ASF context - unlike the Vice President of the
US sitting as chair of the Senate, a PMC chair does not, as far as I've
ever seen, have a tie-breaking vote (if an ASF vote comes to a tie, it's
time to go back to the consensus-building drawing board).
The PMC chair doesn't have special privileges in a code/release/invite new
committer situation, so I see no need for them to abstain or delay their
vote.
They may have special privileges when it comes to inviting new folk on to
the PMC, but in that case as they can technically (I believe) unilaterally
invite someone to join (pending board ACK), it seems silly to suggest that
they not vote.
Noirin
RE: Can the one proposing a vote cast his vote?
Posted by Nóirín Plunkett <no...@apache.org>.
On Jun 3, 2012 8:50 PM, "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>
wrote:
>
> The only odd case about votes is typically when someone is sitting as a
chairperson. In general, chairpersons (having not recused themselves) MAY
vote when the vote cast makes a difference in the outcome, but SHALL NOT
vote at any other time. The chairperson is expected to remain neutral and
only in the particular close case the chairperson may (but need not) cast a
decisive vote. I believe that is the rule that governs the conduct of the
Vice President of the United States when sitting as the chairperson of the
US Senate.
>
This shouldn't apply in an ASF context - unlike the Vice President of the
US sitting as chair of the Senate, a PMC chair does not, as far as I've
ever seen, have a tie-breaking vote (if an ASF vote comes to a tie, it's
time to go back to the consensus-building drawing board).
The PMC chair doesn't have special privileges in a code/release/invite new
committer situation, so I see no need for them to abstain or delay their
vote.
They may have special privileges when it comes to inviting new folk on to
the PMC, but in that case as they can technically (I believe) unilaterally
invite someone to join (pending board ACK), it seems silly to suggest that
they not vote.
Noirin
Re: Can the one proposing a vote cast his vote?
Posted by Baifern Punyapat <pu...@gmail.com>.
2012/6/4, Dennis E. Hamilton <de...@acm.org>:
> @Herbert
>
> In general, anyone should recuse themselves from voting or simply not vote
> if there is concern for (perception of) conflict of interest of any sort.
>
> There is no reason for someone calling a vote not to vote. It happens in
> governments and it happens in standard structures for operating committees
> of various kinds. Calling the vote is not casting a vote in those contexts
> either. Calling for a vote (or initiating a [VOTE] thread) is for making
> progress to a definite outcome and is technically not the same as voting
on
> the motion.
>
> The only odd case about votes is typically when someone is sitting as a
> chairperson. In general, chairpersons (having not recused themselves) MAY
> vote when the vote cast makes a difference in the outcome, but SHALL NOT
> vote at any other time. The chairperson is expected to remain neutral and
> only in the particular close case the chairperson may (but need not) cast
a
> decisive vote. I believe that is the rule that governs the conduct of the
> Vice President of the United States when sitting as the chairperson of the
> US Senate.
>
> Of course, the procedures and bylaws of a specific organization will
> determine how the specific combinations of cases are handled.
>
> - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Herbert Duerr [mailto:hdu@apache.org]
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 04:50
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Cc: Ross Gardler
> Subject: Re: Can the one proposing a vote cast his vote?
>
> Hi,
>
> I was wondering how other projects under the ASF umbrella handle the
> question, whether the one calling a vote should always stay neutral or
> whether he should be allowed to cast his vote.
>
> Or is it assumed that the one proposing a vote automatically approves
> his proposal with a +1?
>
> I had found http://s.apache.org/IqE from the Avalon project that
> summarizes the voting process very well. My particular question wasn't
> answered in it though, so I discussed that topic with Ross Gardler,
> where he gave some good advise and allowed me to share it:
>> You should vote. Unless you formally record your vote it will not be
>> counted.
>>
>> In some cases other factors might make your impartiality questionable,
>> e.g. you may be nominating a new committee who is a work colleague. In
>> such circumstances you may choose to declare your relationship when you
>> make the nomination or when you vote. However, since everyone is an
>> individual in the ASF this is not required.
>>
>> If there is a genuine conflict of interest you need to recuse yourself
>> from the vote. This might happen in circumstances such as requesting PMC
>> approval of the projects trademarks for an event sponsored by your
>> employer.
>
> Are there additional criteria one should consider or are there any other
> opinions on this topic?
>
> Herbert
>
>
Re: Can the one proposing a vote cast his vote?
Posted by Baifern Punyapat <pu...@gmail.com>.
2012/6/4, Dennis E. Hamilton <de...@acm.org>:
> @Herbert
>
> In general, anyone should recuse themselves from voting or simply not vote
> if there is concern for (perception of) conflict of interest of any sort.
>
> There is no reason for someone calling a vote not to vote. It happens in
> governments and it happens in standard structures for operating committees
> of various kinds. Calling the vote is not casting a vote in those
contexts
> either. Calling for a vote (or initiating a [VOTE] thread) is for making
> progress to a definite outcome and is technically not the same as voting
on
> the motion.
>
> The only odd case about votes is typically when someone is sitting as a
> chairperson. In general, chairpersons (having not recused themselves) MAY
> vote when the vote cast makes a difference in the outcome, but SHALL NOT
> vote at any other time. The chairperson is expected to remain neutral and
> only in the particular close case the chairperson may (but need not) cast
a
> decisive vote. I believe that is the rule that governs the conduct of the
> Vice President of the United States when sitting as the chairperson of the
> US Senate.
>
> Of course, the procedures and bylaws of a specific organization will
> determine how the specific combinations of cases are handled.
>
> - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Herbert Duerr [mailto:hdu@apache.org]
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 04:50
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Cc: Ross Gardler
> Subject: Re: Can the one proposing a vote cast his vote?
>
> Hi,
>
> I was wondering how other projects under the ASF umbrella handle the
> question, whether the one calling a vote should always stay neutral or
> whether he should be allowed to cast his vote.
>
> Or is it assumed that the one proposing a vote automatically approves
> his proposal with a +1?
>
> I had found http://s.apache.org/IqE from the Avalon project that
> summarizes the voting process very well. My particular question wasn't
> answered in it though, so I discussed that topic with Ross Gardler,
> where he gave some good advise and allowed me to share it:
>> You should vote. Unless you formally record your vote it will not be
>> counted.
>>
>> In some cases other factors might make your impartiality questionable,
>> e.g. you may be nominating a new committee who is a work colleague. In
>> such circumstances you may choose to declare your relationship when you
>> make the nomination or when you vote. However, since everyone is an
>> individual in the ASF this is not required.
>>
>> If there is a genuine conflict of interest you need to recuse yourself
>> from the vote. This might happen in circumstances such as requesting PMC
>> approval of the projects trademarks for an event sponsored by your
>> employer.
>
> Are there additional criteria one should consider or are there any other
> opinions on this topic?
>
> Herbert
>
>
Re: Can the one proposing a vote cast his vote?
Posted by Baifern Punyapat <pu...@gmail.com>.
เมื่อ วันจันทร์ที่ 4 มิถุนายน ค.ศ. 2012 Baifern Punyapat <
punyapat.pb@gmail.com> เขียนว่า:
>
>
> 2012/6/4, Dennis E. Hamilton <de...@acm.org>:
>> @Herbert
>>
>> In general, anyone should recuse themselves from voting or simply not
vote
>> if there is concern for (perception of) conflict of interest of any sort.
>>
>> There is no reason for someone calling a vote not to vote. It happens in
>> governments and it happens in standard structures for operating
committees
>> of various kinds. Calling the vote is not casting a vote in those
contexts
>> either. Calling for a vote (or initiating a [VOTE] thread) is for making
>> progress to a definite outcome and is technically not the same as voting
on
>> the motion.
>>
>> The only odd case about votes is typically when someone is sitting as a
>> chairperson. In general, chairpersons (having not recused themselves) MAY
>> vote when the vote cast makes a difference in the outcome, but SHALL NOT
>> vote at any other time. The chairperson is expected to remain neutral
and
>> only in the particular close case the chairperson may (but need not)
cast a
>> decisive vote. I believe that is the rule that governs the conduct of
the
>> Vice President of the United States when sitting as the chairperson of
the
>> US Senate.
>>
>> Of course, the procedures and bylaws of a specific organization will
>> determine how the specific combinations of cases are handled.
>>
>> - Dennis
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Herbert Duerr [mailto:hdu@apache.org]
>> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 04:50
>> To: dev@community.apache.org
>> Cc: Ross Gardler
>> Subject: Re: Can the one proposing a vote cast his vote?
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I was wondering how other projects under the ASF umbrella handle the
>> question, whether the one calling a vote should always stay neutral or
>> whether he should be allowed to cast his vote.
>>
>> Or is it assumed that the one proposing a vote automatically approves
>> his proposal with a +1?
>>
>> I had found http://s.apache.org/IqE from the Avalon project that
>> summarizes the voting process very well. My particular question wasn't
>> answered in it though, so I discussed that topic with Ross Gardler,
>> where he gave some good advise and allowed me to share it:
>>> You should vote. Unless you formally record your vote it will not be
>>> counted.
>>>
>>> In some cases other factors might make your impartiality questionable,
>>> e.g. you may be nominating a new committee who is a work colleague. In
>>> such circumstances you may choose to declare your relationship when you
>>> make the nomination or when you vote. However, since everyone is an
>>> individual in the ASF this is not required.
>>>
>>> If there is a genuine conflict of interest you need to recuse yourself
>>> from the vote. This might happen in circumstances such as requesting PMC
>>> approval of the projects trademarks for an event sponsored by your
>>> employer.
>>
>> Are there additional criteria one should consider or are there any other
>> opinions on this topic?
>>
>> Herbert
>>
>>
>
RE: Can the one proposing a vote cast his vote?
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
@Herbert
In general, anyone should recuse themselves from voting or simply not vote if there is concern for (perception of) conflict of interest of any sort.
There is no reason for someone calling a vote not to vote. It happens in governments and it happens in standard structures for operating committees of various kinds. Calling the vote is not casting a vote in those contexts either. Calling for a vote (or initiating a [VOTE] thread) is for making progress to a definite outcome and is technically not the same as voting on the motion.
The only odd case about votes is typically when someone is sitting as a chairperson. In general, chairpersons (having not recused themselves) MAY vote when the vote cast makes a difference in the outcome, but SHALL NOT vote at any other time. The chairperson is expected to remain neutral and only in the particular close case the chairperson may (but need not) cast a decisive vote. I believe that is the rule that governs the conduct of the Vice President of the United States when sitting as the chairperson of the US Senate.
Of course, the procedures and bylaws of a specific organization will determine how the specific combinations of cases are handled.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Herbert Duerr [mailto:hdu@apache.org]
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2012 04:50
To: dev@community.apache.org
Cc: Ross Gardler
Subject: Re: Can the one proposing a vote cast his vote?
Hi,
I was wondering how other projects under the ASF umbrella handle the
question, whether the one calling a vote should always stay neutral or
whether he should be allowed to cast his vote.
Or is it assumed that the one proposing a vote automatically approves
his proposal with a +1?
I had found http://s.apache.org/IqE from the Avalon project that
summarizes the voting process very well. My particular question wasn't
answered in it though, so I discussed that topic with Ross Gardler,
where he gave some good advise and allowed me to share it:
> You should vote. Unless you formally record your vote it will not be
> counted.
>
> In some cases other factors might make your impartiality questionable,
> e.g. you may be nominating a new committee who is a work colleague. In
> such circumstances you may choose to declare your relationship when you
> make the nomination or when you vote. However, since everyone is an
> individual in the ASF this is not required.
>
> If there is a genuine conflict of interest you need to recuse yourself
> from the vote. This might happen in circumstances such as requesting PMC
> approval of the projects trademarks for an event sponsored by your employer.
Are there additional criteria one should consider or are there any other
opinions on this topic?
Herbert
Re: Can the one proposing a vote cast his vote?
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk> wrote:
> Generally (ideally?) people cast their vote in a separate email. Even
> wait a little while before doing so.
>
> You're obviously partial - you wouldn't call the vote otherwise! But
> keep that separate from the actual vote message itself.
I agree that the vote should be explicit. However, I don't see any reason not
to tack "Here's my +1" on to the end of the email calling the VOTE.
FWIW we have that built into our Release Manager email template for calling
VOTEs on release candidates (<http://s.apache.org/tT9>).
Marvin Humphrey
Re: Can the one proposing a vote cast his vote?
Posted by Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk>.
Generally (ideally?) people cast their vote in a separate email. Even
wait a little while before doing so.
You're obviously partial - you wouldn't call the vote otherwise! But
keep that separate from the actual vote message itself.
Regards, Upayavira
On Fri, Jun 1, 2012, at 01:50 PM, Herbert Duerr wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I was wondering how other projects under the ASF umbrella handle the
> question, whether the one calling a vote should always stay neutral or
> whether he should be allowed to cast his vote.
>
> Or is it assumed that the one proposing a vote automatically approves
> his proposal with a +1?
>
> I had found http://s.apache.org/IqE from the Avalon project that
> summarizes the voting process very well. My particular question wasn't
> answered in it though, so I discussed that topic with Ross Gardler,
> where he gave some good advise and allowed me to share it:
> > You should vote. Unless you formally record your vote it will not be
> > counted.
> >
> > In some cases other factors might make your impartiality questionable,
> > e.g. you may be nominating a new committee who is a work colleague. In
> > such circumstances you may choose to declare your relationship when you
> > make the nomination or when you vote. However, since everyone is an
> > individual in the ASF this is not required.
> >
> > If there is a genuine conflict of interest you need to recuse yourself
> > from the vote. This might happen in circumstances such as requesting PMC
> > approval of the projects trademarks for an event sponsored by your employer.
>
> Are there additional criteria one should consider or are there any other
> opinions on this topic?
>
> Herbert