[OT] Russell Beattie on Java, PHP web development

[Tony Collen <co...@umn.edu>]

Found this in my news aggregator today:

http://www.russellbeattie.com/notebook/1007175.html

He brings up a lot of interesting points... why do something "right" if it's complex and hard to 
understand, when you can do something "the wrong way" and get by with having code that works, but 
it's easy to develop?

<quote>
Is there a name for this type of development? Solution-Oriented Programming? Functional Development? 
Useful Coding? I mean, just imagine how cool Java programming would become if this sort of thing got 
as popular as that Pattern fad that came through not too long ago? It'd be so fun!
</quote>

Does Cocoon fall into this type of solution, or do we spend too much time "doing the right thing"? 
Russell has previously stated that he thinks Cocoon is to complex, and requires too much work to get 
up to speed.

Flowscript definitely revolutionizes web development, I think we just need to prove it to people 
that it's worth their time... the problem is that if they have to learn all of the other stuff to go 
along with it, they'll easily get turned off, and run back to PHP and The Old Way Of Doing Things.

Tony

Re: [OT] Russell Beattie on Java, PHP web development

[Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>]

Sylvain Wallez dijo:
> I experienced the fact that CForms & FlowScript
> involve only a very limited subset of Cocoon features, and that people
> don't need to learn nor understand all of them to get started with a web
> applications. But after using this limited subset, they start using more
> and more features ;-)

Yep. I share the same feeling, People using PHP wonder how CForms &
FlowScript make webapp development a child play.

Best Regards,

Antonio Gallardo

Re: [OT] Russell Beattie on Java, PHP web development

[Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org>]

Tony Collen wrote:

> Found this in my news aggregator today:
>
> http://www.russellbeattie.com/notebook/1007175.html
>
> He brings up a lot of interesting points... why do something "right" 
> if it's complex and hard to understand, when you can do something "the 
> wrong way" and get by with having code that works, but it's easy to 
> develop?
>
> <quote>
> Is there a name for this type of development? Solution-Oriented 
> Programming? Functional Development? Useful Coding? I mean, just 
> imagine how cool Java programming would become if this sort of thing 
> got as popular as that Pattern fad that came through not too long ago? 
> It'd be so fun!
> </quote>
>
> Does Cocoon fall into this type of solution, or do we spend too much 
> time "doing the right thing"? Russell has previously stated that he 
> thinks Cocoon is to complex, and requires too much work to get up to 
> speed.
>
> Flowscript definitely revolutionizes web development, I think we just 
> need to prove it to people that it's worth their time... the problem 
> is that if they have to learn all of the other stuff to go along with 
> it, they'll easily get turned off, and run back to PHP and The Old Way 
> Of Doing Things.


Quick answer (I'm late for going home).

Firstly, this has alway been Russell's motto, and, considering his 
statements on PHP, I have the impression he progressively goes down in 
the evolution tree of technologies.

Secondly, about Cocoon, I experienced the fact that CForms & FlowScript 
involve only a very limited subset of Cocoon features, and that people 
don't need to learn nor understand all of them to get started with a web 
applications. But after using this limited subset, they start using more 
and more features ;-)

Sylvain

-- 
Sylvain Wallez                                  Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain           http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }

Re: [OT] Russell Beattie on Java, PHP web development

[Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>]

Tony Collen wrote:

> Found this in my news aggregator today:
> 
> http://www.russellbeattie.com/notebook/1007175.html
> 
> He brings up a lot of interesting points... why do something "right" if 
> it's complex and hard to understand, when you can do something "the 
> wrong way" and get by with having code that works, but it's easy to 
> develop?
> 
> <quote>
> Is there a name for this type of development? Solution-Oriented 
> Programming? Functional Development? Useful Coding? I mean, just imagine 
> how cool Java programming would become if this sort of thing got as 
> popular as that Pattern fad that came through not too long ago? It'd be 
> so fun!
> </quote>
> 
> Does Cocoon fall into this type of solution, or do we spend too much 
> time "doing the right thing"? Russell has previously stated that he 
> thinks Cocoon is to complex, and requires too much work to get up to speed.
> 
> Flowscript definitely revolutionizes web development, I think we just 
> need to prove it to people that it's worth their time... the problem is 
> that if they have to learn all of the other stuff to go along with it, 
> they'll easily get turned off, and run back to PHP and The Old Way Of 
> Doing Things.

Time will tell.

I'm full into preaching and evangelization these days (the semweb is 
full of that) and I getting more and more sick of it (being the one 
being preached at)

If it's good for you, use it. If not, don't.

Just one thing saves you: be ready to change your mind.

-- 
Stefano.