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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by RA Stehmann <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de> on 2014/09/24 10:14:06 UTC
Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
On 24.09.2014 09:33, Jörg Schmidt wrote:
> Hello,
>
> What is the situation?
> On one of the project mailing lists (users-de@openoffice.apache.org), a moderator refuses to act against a troll.
>
To make things clear:
I'm the moderator, Jörg means. The other moderator of that list is
Raphael, member of our PMC.
I don't want to protect trolls, but there are different meanings about
how to handle the problem.
I only refuse the way of acting Jörg wants to dictate me. I don't refuse
to act against troll postings in a proper way.
Kind regards
Michael
Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
Posted by Peter Junge <pe...@gmx.org>.
Hi Michael,
On 24/09/14 19:13, RA Stehmann wrote:
> On 24.09.2014 10:50, Jörg Schmidt wrote:
>>
>
[...]
>>> I don't want to protect trolls, but there are different meanings about
>>> how to handle the problem.
>>>
>>> I only refuse the way of acting Jörg wants to dictate me.
>>
>> I am dictating here nothing.
>
> Ok, excuse my poor English.
>
> I only refuse the way of acting Jörg wants to instruct me.
>
> We discussed that topic on the list. To ban an email address isn't very
> effective, because that person is able to join the mailing list with
> another email address.
I have been banning a couple of trolls over the years and they had never
resubscribed with another email address. If that happens, moderators
need to show that the game is many against one and continue kicking the
guy out.
>
> So some people proposed to ignore his posting and, if that person gives
> wrong advices to users, to mark them factually as a wrong advice.
The result of this is that the email traffic is increasing with many
postings that are not useful to the average list reader. Consequently, a
couple of those average list readers will unsubscribe which is not
desirable.
I would strongly recommend to immediately ban the guy who's disturbing
the list's peace if he has been properly warned before.
/Peter
>
> I think, that's a proper way. But the other supporters has to support
> that way, because I don't know anything better than that person.
>
> But some people react very angry. That seems to "feed the troll".
>
> Now Jörg confides me anymore and that's very irksome for the
> germanophone community, There are sometimes strong disputes between him
> and me.
>
> I've declared, if the community really wants to have another moderator,
> I will abdicate, no problem: I've enough other ways to support Free
> Software. But Jörg names that as a behavior of a politician (That's no
> flattery.).
>
> Kind regards
> Michael
>
>
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Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> From: RA Stehmann [mailto:anwalt@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de]
> Maybe the troll's name is known, but nobody in the internet knows that
> you are a dog.
I have full administrative access in the forum, I know the email of the Trolls and I know his IP (at a given time).
So I do not know the real name of the troll but I am perfectly sure that the Troll is the same person in the forum and on the mailing list.
> I don't have any problems with criticism.
>
> But I'm not willing to follow instructions, which aren't reasonable.
>
> And I'm not willing to ban someone without the accordance of my
> co-moderator. There are good reasons, why mailing lists have
> to have two
> moderators.
>
> If Jörg wants a handyman, he has to look for another person.
Sorry, but in this way we should not talk to each other.
I have voiced criticism because I have 10 years experience in moderating and because I think you make the wrong decision if you do not banishing the troll from the list.
> He is a moderator (of three) of the other germanophone
> mailing list. He
> can also become moderator of the users-de list.
Sorry, not interested because I have no time for it.
Greetings,
Jörg
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Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@robweir.com>.
On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 5:25 AM, Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de> wrote:
>> From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pescetti@apache.org]
>
>> > My question is:
>> > Are the instructions on the following page valid:
>> > http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
>>
>> They are valid.
>>
>> > If so, then I'll make an official request to the PMC, and
>> ask that the troll will be banned from the list.
>>
>> The PMC does not have super-powers or magic wands.
>
> Read 10 E in:
> http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
>
> "The decision of the PMC is final." says that the PMC have the last word. Or not?
>
That was intended for cases where the "troll" appealed to the PMC. We
were not thinking of it for disagreements among moderators.
>> It will always be
>> needed that a list moderator acts, and I feel it would be stupid to
>> impose this on Michael if he is unwilling.
>> The solution is that a committer [...]
>
> I do not understand the usefulness of the method.
>
> The situation is that a moderator does not want to do what keeps the majority is right.
>
> Now, if a second moderator banned the troll that will anger the first moderator.
>
> Why is this type of procedure well?
>
It is never easy and clean to ban someone from a mailing list. Don't
expect simple answers that will make everyone happy. It is messy,
ugly, but sometimes necessary. In the history of the international
users list at AOO we've had to ban only one user. And I don't think
we've banned anyone on any other list yet. So it is very rare.
-Rob
>> (including Joerg: you say you don't
>> have time, but, if you think about it, the effort spent on this
>> discussion is far more than what's needed to moderate a list)
>
> possible, but if I did I would be permanently in dispute with Michael because I had to do what he himself does not want to, or he could do it but himself.
>
> How can that make sense? It will only cause we are both angry (Michael and I).
>
>
>
> Greetings,
> Jörg
>
>
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Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> ahm no, when you read the complete paraghraph...
>
> <quote>
> E. What to do in case of doubt?
>
> Decisions of Moderators are subject to review by the PMC and
> anyone who
> feels that a Moderator's discretion was abused can escalate
> by sending
> an email to the PMC at private@openoffice.apache.org. The decision of
> the PMC is final.
> </quote>
>
> ... you will notice that it means that you as ML moderator
> can decide on
> your own. When the ML user does not agree with this, *then*
> she/he can
> contact the PMC for any claim.
That's *exactly* what I mean. Because in this case, the PMC has the last word and not the moderator.
Jörg
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Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 09/26/2014 11:25 AM, schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>> From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pescetti@apache.org]
>
>>> My question is:
>>> Are the instructions on the following page valid:
>>> http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
>>
>> They are valid.
>>
>>> If so, then I'll make an official request to the PMC, and
>> ask that the troll will be banned from the list.
>>
>> The PMC does not have super-powers or magic wands.
>
> Read 10 E in:
> http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
>
> "The decision of the PMC is final." says that the PMC have the last word. Or not?
ahm no, when you read the complete paraghraph...
<quote>
E. What to do in case of doubt?
Decisions of Moderators are subject to review by the PMC and anyone who
feels that a Moderator's discretion was abused can escalate by sending
an email to the PMC at private@openoffice.apache.org. The decision of
the PMC is final.
</quote>
... you will notice that it means that you as ML moderator can decide on
your own. When the ML user does not agree with this, *then* she/he can
contact the PMC for any claim.
>> It will always be
>> needed that a list moderator acts, and I feel it would be stupid to
>> impose this on Michael if he is unwilling.
>> The solution is that a committer [...]
>
> [...]
At the end you can go on with discussing but it won't change anything.
Even worse, as longer as the discussion goes here, one could get the
impression that the situation with the troll is not that bad after all. ;-)
Marcus
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Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pescetti@apache.org]
> > My question is:
> > Are the instructions on the following page valid:
> > http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
>
> They are valid.
>
> > If so, then I'll make an official request to the PMC, and
> ask that the troll will be banned from the list.
>
> The PMC does not have super-powers or magic wands.
Read 10 E in:
http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
"The decision of the PMC is final." says that the PMC have the last word. Or not?
> It will always be
> needed that a list moderator acts, and I feel it would be stupid to
> impose this on Michael if he is unwilling.
> The solution is that a committer [...]
I do not understand the usefulness of the method.
The situation is that a moderator does not want to do what keeps the majority is right.
Now, if a second moderator banned the troll that will anger the first moderator.
Why is this type of procedure well?
> (including Joerg: you say you don't
> have time, but, if you think about it, the effort spent on this
> discussion is far more than what's needed to moderate a list)
possible, but if I did I would be permanently in dispute with Michael because I had to do what he himself does not want to, or he could do it but himself.
How can that make sense? It will only cause we are both angry (Michael and I).
Greetings,
Jörg
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Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
Jörg Schmidt wrote:
> I unfortunately do not understand the situation.
The situation is that a troll is winning because one moderator is (at
least for the sake of this discussion) absent, one prefers other
solutions and other members prefer to frame the issue in terms of policy
and jurisdiction, which should really be the last resort.
> My question is:
> Are the instructions on the following page valid:
> http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
They are valid.
> If so, then I'll make an official request to the PMC, and ask that the troll will be banned from the list.
The PMC does not have super-powers or magic wands. It will always be
needed that a list moderator acts, and I feel it would be stupid to
impose this on Michael if he is unwilling.
The solution is that a committer (including Joerg: you say you don't
have time, but, if you think about it, the effort spent on this
discussion is far more than what's needed to moderate a list) who is
subscribed to that list accepts to be a moderator by requesting
privileges here. Then he will be able to ban the troll. And hopefully
moderators will then get along well instead of banning each other,
because we don't want to write policy pages about what to do in case
moderators disagree! But I'm confident that once the troll is banned
collaboration will work.
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
Hello,
I unfortunately do not understand the situation.
I have here) asked on the list because Michael himself refused for months a decision. We have discussed the troll problem on the German list often, just nothing has improved. We have currently discussed by PM and also because Michael refused a concrete answer.
Here on the list (dev@openoffice.apache.org) is the de majority of the discussion involved the opinion to banish the troll and that should also be done to make the list (users-de@openoffice.apache.org) used sensibly again can be.
My question is:
Are the instructions on the following page valid:
http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html
If so, then I'll make an official request to the PMC, and ask that the troll will be banned from the list.
Greetings,
Jörg
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Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
On 24/09/2014 RA Stehmann wrote:
> And I'm not willing to ban someone without the accordance of my
> co-moderator. There are good reasons, why mailing lists have to have two
> moderators.
The good reason in this case is responsiveness: we appoint 2+ moderator
to increase the chances that one is available to act; the other ones
just need to be informed after the fact.
If having a third moderator can help (and if you as a group can handle
this peacefully!) it's enough to ask here on the dev list.
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
Posted by RA Stehmann <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de>.
On 24.09.2014 13:45, Jörg Schmidt wrote:
>> From: RA Stehmann [mailto:anwalt@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de]
>
>> We discussed that topic on the list. To ban an email address
>> isn't very
>> effective, because that person is able to join the mailing list with
>> another email address.
>
> I explained very carefully, we are _not_ talking about _any_ troll but a _known_ troll and are finished we http://de.openoffice.info forum already with him. (I'm in this forum Moderator.)
> I do not speculate but I'm talking about what has already practically taken place.
Maybe the troll's name is known, but nobody in the internet knows that
you are a dog.
It's easy to subscribe the list (and that's good so) and it's very easy
to get an email address. So there is no real barrier for a troll.
He's rather more dangerous afterwards, until we recognize he's the same
troll again under a new address.
>
>> I've declared, if the community really wants to have another
>> moderator,
>
> And I think such an approach is absurd. A moderator must be willing to endure criticism without threatening with equal resignation.
I don't have any problems with criticism.
But I'm not willing to follow instructions, which aren't reasonable.
And I'm not willing to ban someone without the accordance of my
co-moderator. There are good reasons, why mailing lists have to have two
moderators.
If Jörg wants a handyman, he has to look for another person.
He is a moderator (of three) of the other germanophone mailing list. He
can also become moderator of the users-de list. And than he's able to to
do what he thinks is a reasonable action. And than he has take the
responsibility for his action, if the action manifests useless and
harmful.
Kind reagards
Michael
Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> From: RA Stehmann [mailto:anwalt@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de]
> We discussed that topic on the list. To ban an email address
> isn't very
> effective, because that person is able to join the mailing list with
> another email address.
I explained very carefully, we are _not_ talking about _any_ troll but a _known_ troll and are finished we http://de.openoffice.info forum already with him. (I'm in this forum Moderator.)
I do not speculate but I'm talking about what has already practically taken place.
> I've declared, if the community really wants to have another
> moderator,
And I think such an approach is absurd. A moderator must be willing to endure criticism without threatening with equal resignation.
I'm sure the German community does not want Michael's resignation, but she wants the troll is banned from the list.
She wants that finally happens, because the list is suffering now for 2 years under the Troll.
Greetings,
Jörg
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Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pescetti@apache.org]
> If the two of you disagree on how to handle a troll, the
> troll wins, you
> two lose, and the project loses
yes, it is.
The concrete troll harms the list therefore particularly because he does not tell jokes, but because it gives wrong answers deliberately.
Let me give an example:
it user asked for the line spacing in Writer and the Troll replied to the distance above the paragraphs.
For experts, this is easy to debunk, but a normal user it completely confused and he believes the community is stupid.
> Don't let any existing good relationship in the community be
> altered by
> a simple troll. This is what he wants to do!
yes, fine formulated.
I see it like this:
the troll is, in the opinion of the German community, a troll, theoretically we could be wrong.
BUT ... if we're wrong, we do a little injustice. But if we do nothing against the troll we hurt the community permanently.
Greetings,
Jörg
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Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
> > See http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html and if I were the
> But I think the first step is to discuss conduct guidelines and get
> agreement within the German community that these are the terms you
> want to and agree to work with, and that moderators will enforce them.
yes, that's a good idea.
I will suggest that the German community.
Greetings,
Jörg
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Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 7:37 AM, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org> wrote:
> RA Stehmann wrote:
>>
>> I only refuse the way of acting Jörg wants to instruct me.
>> We discussed that topic on the list. To ban an email address isn't very
>> effective, because that person is able to join the mailing list with
>> another email address.
>
>
> If the two of you disagree on how to handle a troll, the troll wins, you two
> lose, and the project loses (since we don't want to pollute the lists with
> long discussions on how to handle a troll).
>
> If he makes zero useful posts, just ban him and get rid of the problem. Sure
> he can register with a new address, and this is why Michael is correct in
> saying that people should really learn to ignore posts and not having public
> discussions on whether to ban him. But banning him will show that you are
> all on the same side.
>
> See http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html and if I were the
> moderator I would send a public reminder (and clearly you did discuss it on
> the list already, so the person is aware) and then ban him. The page above
> says what he should do if he feels abused by the moderator.
>
Maybe translate that page into German if it helps.
It is also possible to put a link to the conduct guidelines into the
template for list posts, so every lost will contain that link.
It is possible for a moderator to ban a user from posting, for a
specific email address. Obviously a determined troll can create
other mail accounts. But if they became abusive in this way then we'd
follow up with complaints to their ISP.
But I think the first step is to discuss conduct guidelines and get
agreement within the German community that these are the terms you
want to and agree to work with, and that moderators will enforce them.
Regards,
-Rob
>> But some people react very angry. That seems to "feed the troll".
>> Now Jörg confides me anymore and that's very irksome for the
>> germanophone community, There are sometimes strong disputes between him
>> and me.
>
>
> Don't let any existing good relationship in the community be altered by a
> simple troll. This is what he wants to do!
>
> (All of this is generic; I haven't read the users-de archives for this
> specific case, but you two seem to agree that the individual is not posting
> anything useful)
>
> Regards,
> Andrea.
>
>
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Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
On Wed, 24 Sep 2014 19:50:58 +0200
Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
> Am 09/24/2014 01:37 PM, schrieb Andrea Pescetti:
> >
> > If he makes zero useful posts, just ban him and get rid of the problem.
> > Sure he can register with a new address, and this is why Michael is
> > correct in saying that people should really learn to ignore posts and
> > not having public discussions on whether to ban him. But banning him
> > will show that you are all on the same side.
>
> +1
>
> The worst thing that you can do (in this case) is doing nothing. So,
> even when banning is not the best/savest solution, it indeed will tell
> him: You are taking care and watching him.
>
> Marcus
I agree. Better to ban him, even if he later reappears under a different name. At least such different name will not have the gravitas of so many postings, which gravitas may lead readers to suppose his advice is sound.
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
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Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
Posted by Marcus <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 09/24/2014 01:37 PM, schrieb Andrea Pescetti:
>
> If he makes zero useful posts, just ban him and get rid of the problem.
> Sure he can register with a new address, and this is why Michael is
> correct in saying that people should really learn to ignore posts and
> not having public discussions on whether to ban him. But banning him
> will show that you are all on the same side.
+1
The worst thing that you can do (in this case) is doing nothing. So,
even when banning is not the best/savest solution, it indeed will tell
him: You are taking care and watching him.
Marcus
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Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
RA Stehmann wrote:
> I only refuse the way of acting Jörg wants to instruct me.
> We discussed that topic on the list. To ban an email address isn't very
> effective, because that person is able to join the mailing list with
> another email address.
If the two of you disagree on how to handle a troll, the troll wins, you
two lose, and the project loses (since we don't want to pollute the
lists with long discussions on how to handle a troll).
If he makes zero useful posts, just ban him and get rid of the problem.
Sure he can register with a new address, and this is why Michael is
correct in saying that people should really learn to ignore posts and
not having public discussions on whether to ban him. But banning him
will show that you are all on the same side.
See http://openoffice.apache.org/list-conduct.html and if I were the
moderator I would send a public reminder (and clearly you did discuss it
on the list already, so the person is aware) and then ban him. The page
above says what he should do if he feels abused by the moderator.
> But some people react very angry. That seems to "feed the troll".
> Now Jörg confides me anymore and that's very irksome for the
> germanophone community, There are sometimes strong disputes between him
> and me.
Don't let any existing good relationship in the community be altered by
a simple troll. This is what he wants to do!
(All of this is generic; I haven't read the users-de archives for this
specific case, but you two seem to agree that the individual is not
posting anything useful)
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
Posted by RA Stehmann <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de>.
On 24.09.2014 10:50, Jörg Schmidt wrote:
>
>> I'm the moderator, Jörg means. The other moderator of that list is
>> Raphael, member of our PMC.
>>
>> I don't want to protect trolls, but there are different meanings about
>> how to handle the problem.
>>
>> I only refuse the way of acting Jörg wants to dictate me.
>
> I am dictating here nothing.
Ok, excuse my poor English.
I only refuse the way of acting Jörg wants to instruct me.
We discussed that topic on the list. To ban an email address isn't very
effective, because that person is able to join the mailing list with
another email address.
So some people proposed to ignore his posting and, if that person gives
wrong advices to users, to mark them factually as a wrong advice.
I think, that's a proper way. But the other supporters has to support
that way, because I don't know anything better than that person.
But some people react very angry. That seems to "feed the troll".
Now Jörg confides me anymore and that's very irksome for the
germanophone community, There are sometimes strong disputes between him
and me.
I've declared, if the community really wants to have another moderator,
I will abdicate, no problem: I've enough other ways to support Free
Software. But Jörg names that as a behavior of a politician (That's no
flattery.).
Kind regards
Michael
Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RA Stehmann [mailto:anwalt@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 10:14 AM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
>
> On 24.09.2014 09:33, Jörg Schmidt wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > What is the situation?
> > On one of the project mailing lists
> (users-de@openoffice.apache.org), a moderator refuses to act
> against a troll.
> >
> To make things clear:
>
> I'm the moderator, Jörg means. The other moderator of that list is
> Raphael, member of our PMC.
>
> I don't want to protect trolls, but there are different meanings about
> how to handle the problem.
>
> I only refuse the way of acting Jörg wants to dictate me.
I am dictating here nothing.
We have shared several times on the mailing list and you refuse to take action against the troll.
Also, several other members of the mailing list see it that way and your behavior is also factually completely impractical, because to solve the problem by Ignorien the troll does not work.
Again, I stress the importance of doing something effective:
the troll is on the list aware of wrong answers to questioning AOO user to confuse.
This is no internal problem, but it is about normal users seeking our help and are irritated by wrong answers.
Greetings,
Jörg
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Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> From: Rory O'Farrell [mailto:ofarrwrk@iol.ie]
> It would be helpful if you or Jörg would set out the
> alternatives available.
The correct procedure would be to remove the troll from the mailing list. This
causes no disadvantage, because the troll does not contribute to OpenOffice.
Justification:
it is not so easy to lock individual mails, because the troll sent technically
incorrect answers are to confuse users, which does not at first glance be seen.
Greetings,
Jörg
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Re: Which project Instance has jurisdiction in disputes?
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
On Wed, 24 Sep 2014 10:14:06 +0200
RA Stehmann <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de> wrote:
> On 24.09.2014 09:33, Jörg Schmidt wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > What is the situation?
> > On one of the project mailing lists (users-de@openoffice.apache.org), a moderator refuses to act against a troll.
> >
> To make things clear:
>
> I'm the moderator, Jörg means. The other moderator of that list is
> Raphael, member of our PMC.
>
> I don't want to protect trolls, but there are different meanings about
> how to handle the problem.
>
> I only refuse the way of acting Jörg wants to dictate me. I don't refuse
> to act against troll postings in a proper way.
>
It would be helpful if you or Jörg would set out the alternatives available.
On the en-Forum the usual ban is for obvious spam postings (applied immediately by moderators). Very rarely are members banned for other reasons - usually personally abusive postings.
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
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