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Posted to dev@commons.apache.org by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> on 2006/07/21 02:15:57 UTC
[all] Splitting the mailing list
A while back Maven moved to having the commits and issues on different
mailing lists and it seems to be going well.
So I'd like to suggest:
commons-commits@jakarta.apache.org - reply-to to commons-dev
commons-issues@jakarta.apache.org - reply-to to commons-dev
I think the wiki notifications should stay on the dev list as they're
relatively low in number and they don't require any kind of restricted
authentication to get involved with. Any contributor can hop in and
fix a spelling mistake.
The obvious worry is over new committers not subscribing to those
lists. Firstly we can obviously make a point of mentioning that to new
committers - but mostly I think the number of Re: svn commit and Re:
[JIRA] emails that will appear will make them wonder what they're
missing.
Another advantage of the above just happened on the Tomcat list. A
mistake by a committer caused 2700 svn commits to be sent out (to
nearly 1000 subscribers). The ASF mail server took a good many hours
to recover - most of the day I think. So both those kind of errors,
and the large JIRA reorgs we've been doing would be hitting less
people.
One question:
Do we automatically subscribe everyone on dev@ and let them
unsubscribe. Or start the lists empty.
Hen
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
+1 on both.. Although I would also like to see the wiki notifications moved to the commits list.
The only thing that needs to be done to actually make this work, is to actually advertise the
mailinglist splitup. I missed the fact at some projects (don't remember which ones though), there
was a seperate commit / jira list.
So we need to adjust the docs of all projects, the mail2 page and regenerate the site when we do the
move.
I am in favour of autosubscribing everyone who is currently on dev.
Mvgr,
Martin
Henri Yandell wrote:
> A while back Maven moved to having the commits and issues on different
> mailing lists and it seems to be going well.
>
> So I'd like to suggest:
>
> commons-commits@jakarta.apache.org - reply-to to commons-dev
> commons-issues@jakarta.apache.org - reply-to to commons-dev
>
> I think the wiki notifications should stay on the dev list as they're
> relatively low in number and they don't require any kind of restricted
> authentication to get involved with. Any contributor can hop in and
> fix a spelling mistake.
>
> The obvious worry is over new committers not subscribing to those
> lists. Firstly we can obviously make a point of mentioning that to new
> committers - but mostly I think the number of Re: svn commit and Re:
> [JIRA] emails that will appear will make them wonder what they're
> missing.
>
> Another advantage of the above just happened on the Tomcat list. A
> mistake by a committer caused 2700 svn commits to be sent out (to
> nearly 1000 subscribers). The ASF mail server took a good many hours
> to recover - most of the day I think. So both those kind of errors,
> and the large JIRA reorgs we've been doing would be hitting less
> people.
>
> One question:
>
> Do we automatically subscribe everyone on dev@ and let them
> unsubscribe. Or start the lists empty.
>
> Hen
>
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>
>
>
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On 7/20/06, Phil Steitz <ph...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/20/06, Wendy Smoak <ws...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 7/20/06, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Is it as important for contributors? If I understand it correctly,
> > > the idea of this change (a bunch of projects seem to be moving this
> > > way) is that the developers see exactly what they used to see and the
> > > contributors get a less spammy list and thus get more involved.
> >
>
> Commit diffs are not spam, IMO, nor are issue reports / comments.
> This is core to what is happening on a project.
I agree with Phil. And I don't buy that more people would get involved if
they didn't see the commit messages. How can they be properly involved if
they're not watching what's happening to the code and the issues?
--
Martin Cooper
> It also allows people to choose not only what they receive, but how.
> > Email isn't the only way to 'subscribe' to the lists, you can also get
> > the Atom feed from the ASF mail archives, or use a forum interface
> > like Nabble.
> >
> > (I'd keep dev@ for discussion only, and send wiki diffs to commits@.
> > While we're on the subject, will there be CI server notifications?)
> >
>
> Probably yet another little list, if we chase this to logical
> conclusion. One problem that I have with splitting things is that
> Jira comments *are* discussion, as are commit log messages and
> responses to these, etc. I don't like the idea of splitting these.
>
> As far as the arguments about getting new contributors in, I would
> like to hear from them.
>
> Phil
>
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>
>
Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by lu...@free.fr.
Phil Steitz <ph...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Commit diffs are not spam, IMO, nor are issue reports / comments.
> This is core to what is happening on a project.
This is true for someone deeply involved in the project life, but may be
overwhelming for someone who only wants to keep an eye on the discussions about
future directions and new features.
> As far as the arguments about getting new contributors in, I would
> like to hear from them.
I am just stepping in now. As I really want to contribute and to invest my time
in this project, I am interested in the commits and Jira stuff. The fact de dev
list is shared among many projects is more an issue to me than the level of
messages that are exchanged on the list for a given project. However, I think
this choice has been made for good reasons and will not complain about it. I
take the lists as they are.
This is only a personal opinion, from someone who is both new to the project and
wants to get involved. Many other use cases for the lists are possible.
Luc
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Dennis Lundberg <de...@apache.org>.
Henri Yandell wrote:
> On 7/22/06, Brett Porter <br...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> But, YMMV - the Maven lists are significantly busier than commons.
>
> That wasn't my feeling - we're not very busy at the moment but
> generally I thought commons-dev was one of the busier lists at the
> ASF.
>
> Comparing:
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/jakarta-commons-dev/
>
> and
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/maven-dev/
>
> Maven-dev hit real heights with 4000 emails a month at the end of 2005
> - it's now down to 600 or so. An active Commons back in 2003/2004 was
> hitting 2000, though it's interesting to note we're still heading
> towards the 2000s whenever we get active (and I don't think we've
> really got that active yet).
Don't forget to add the new lists into the equation:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/maven-commits/
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/maven-issues/
>
> My thinking is that over the next 6 months we should be doubling the
> number of active committers - I need to do some svn logs but I suspect
> there are 5->10 currently and it used to be 10-20. It'd also be
> interesting to analyse what our numbers would drop to if we split
> lists.
>
> Hen
>
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>
--
Dennis Lundberg
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 7/22/06, Brett Porter <br...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> But, YMMV - the Maven lists are significantly busier than commons.
That wasn't my feeling - we're not very busy at the moment but
generally I thought commons-dev was one of the busier lists at the
ASF.
Comparing:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/jakarta-commons-dev/
and
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/maven-dev/
Maven-dev hit real heights with 4000 emails a month at the end of 2005
- it's now down to 600 or so. An active Commons back in 2003/2004 was
hitting 2000, though it's interesting to note we're still heading
towards the 2000s whenever we get active (and I don't think we've
really got that active yet).
My thinking is that over the next 6 months we should be doubling the
number of active committers - I need to do some svn logs but I suspect
there are 5->10 currently and it used to be 10-20. It'd also be
interesting to analyse what our numbers would drop to if we split
lists.
Hen
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Brett Porter <br...@apache.org>.
On 21/07/2006 2:08 PM, Simon Kitching wrote:
> Allowing people to subscribe to (mail+jira+commit) for a specific
> commons component seems to be to me what casual contributors would
> really need, but we have no easy way to do that without causing major
> damage to the whole commons community.
Yes, that's really the other alternative. But I think they need to be
larger, active components or groups of components, otherwise you'll end
up with ghost town lists, insufficient oversight and lack of interest in
the common infrastructure which is what you are referring to.
FWIW, we do this too - maven-scm, maven-continuum, maven-wagon,
maven-doxia all have separate dev, user and commits lists (but they all
share the issues list).
>
>>> As far as the arguments about getting new contributors in, I would
>>> like to hear from them.
>
> That's an excellent idea..
Yep, best to listen to them. This is really who the proposal is for, I
agree that the committers would want to be on all 3.
I don't buy the argument that it is necessary to follow all the jira
issues and commits to participate in development, though.
>
> Brett, what's the feedback on the split of the Maven list? Why do you
> think it was a good idea?
It was very positive, and many people who weren't committers were keen
to see it go further than originally proposed.
One of the motivations for me was looking at the graphs on Ken's page to
see how many people unsubscribed from the dev@ list when there was a big
run of commit or jira mails. That's losing people that might have had
something to say if they only had to go through a less annoying amount
of mail. We get regular feedback on there from people I've never heard
from before.
The separation of archives is a big win, especially as things like
nabble have become more popular as a way to casually participate in lists.
The dev@ list is definitely more active than it used to be, but I don't
know how much of that is attributable to the split vs. normal growth (it
seems to be on the same upward trend it already was). However, it
certainly hasn't hurt. I haven't seen any evidence of jira issues or
code getting overlooked.
But, YMMV - the Maven lists are significantly busier than commons.
HTH,
Brett
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 7/20/06, Simon Kitching <sk...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > As far as the arguments about getting new contributors in, I would
> > > like to hear from them.
>
> That's an excellent idea..
Yup. James Ring is one of those, so his reply was quite a surprise (for me).
Maybe a better email would be:
Contributors - we want to give you commit access and get you involved
- what can we do to help get you involved and active so we can then
say "yes, this person is committed".
Apache Directory are experimenting with having committers mentoring
new contributors into the project having recognised that they're
seeing things start to slow down. Not too sure of that, we're all
sitting down and doing this at the end of the day because it's fun.
Then again, this isn't much different from the Google Summer of Code
concept, except that that's only open to students.
My biggest concern is with code direction. Andrew Shirley has done
lots of good work with CLI on the issue tracker (and James too), but
until we had some kind of direction for CLI I was very hesitant to be
nominating someone to become a committer and then having them just be
stuck on their own.
A later concern is what will happen to commons-dev as we get even more
moving. Let's say we double the number of active committers - will
commons-dev start to feel cramped again?
I'm also concerned with the noise that a release creates. If we want
to release often (and not the multiple year releases we have tended
towards), can we do that without creating noise that drowns out the
code? Maybe having nightly builds is good enough for the release
often. Commons libraries are at the heart of projects dependency lists
so who wants to have to update all the time.
Back to coding or releasing or something :)
Hen
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Simon Kitching <sk...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 2006-07-20 at 20:34 -0700, Martin Cooper wrote:
> On 7/20/06, Phil Steitz <ph...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 7/20/06, Wendy Smoak <ws...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 7/20/06, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Is it as important for contributors? If I understand it correctly,
> > > > the idea of this change (a bunch of projects seem to be moving this
> > > > way) is that the developers see exactly what they used to see and the
> > > > contributors get a less spammy list and thus get more involved.
> > >
> >
> > Commit diffs are not spam, IMO, nor are issue reports / comments.
> > This is core to what is happening on a project.
>
>
> I agree with Phil. And I don't buy that more people would get involved if
> they didn't see the commit messages. How can they be properly involved if
> they're not watching what's happening to the code and the issues?
I'm also -0 on splitting the list into dev/commit (though open to
persuasion).
As noted, JIRA comments are as valid as emails for discussing an issue.
And I think any contributor to a project (someone who is submitting
patches) needs to keep an eye on patches even if not "a committer", to
see if their area of interest is being modified and how.
Allowing people to subscribe to (mail+jira+commit) for a specific
commons component seems to be to me what casual contributors would
really need, but we have no easy way to do that without causing major
damage to the whole commons community.
> > As far as the arguments about getting new contributors in, I would
> > like to hear from them.
That's an excellent idea..
Brett, what's the feedback on the split of the Maven list? Why do you
think it was a good idea?
Cheers,
Simon
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Phil Steitz <ph...@gmail.com>.
On 7/20/06, Wendy Smoak <ws...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/20/06, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Is it as important for contributors? If I understand it correctly,
> > the idea of this change (a bunch of projects seem to be moving this
> > way) is that the developers see exactly what they used to see and the
> > contributors get a less spammy list and thus get more involved.
>
Commit diffs are not spam, IMO, nor are issue reports / comments.
This is core to what is happening on a project.
> It also allows people to choose not only what they receive, but how.
> Email isn't the only way to 'subscribe' to the lists, you can also get
> the Atom feed from the ASF mail archives, or use a forum interface
> like Nabble.
>
> (I'd keep dev@ for discussion only, and send wiki diffs to commits@.
> While we're on the subject, will there be CI server notifications?)
>
Probably yet another little list, if we chase this to logical
conclusion. One problem that I have with splitting things is that
Jira comments *are* discussion, as are commit log messages and
responses to these, etc. I don't like the idea of splitting these.
As far as the arguments about getting new contributors in, I would
like to hear from them.
Phil
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Wendy Smoak <ws...@gmail.com>.
On 7/20/06, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is it as important for contributors? If I understand it correctly,
> the idea of this change (a bunch of projects seem to be moving this
> way) is that the developers see exactly what they used to see and the
> contributors get a less spammy list and thus get more involved.
It also allows people to choose not only what they receive, but how.
Email isn't the only way to 'subscribe' to the lists, you can also get
the Atom feed from the ASF mail archives, or use a forum interface
like Nabble.
(I'd keep dev@ for discussion only, and send wiki diffs to commits@.
While we're on the subject, will there be CI server notifications?)
Thanks,
--
Wendy
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 7/20/06, Phil Steitz <ph...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would rather that we find a way to reduce the JIRA noise, but only
> the part of it that really is noise. The real JIRA notifications and
> commit diffs are as important as the other stuff on this list -
> certainly as important as this message ;-)
Is it as important for contributors? If I understand it correctly,
the idea of this change (a bunch of projects seem to be moving this
way) is that the developers see exactly what they used to see and the
contributors get a less spammy list and thus get more involved.
Especially useful for Commons I think as it should be such an easy
project to contribute to (very simple code by and large) and we've had
a distinct failure to ease contributors in.
Hen
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Phil Steitz <ph...@gmail.com>.
I would rather that we find a way to reduce the JIRA noise, but only
the part of it that really is noise. The real JIRA notifications and
commit diffs are as important as the other stuff on this list -
certainly as important as this message ;-)
Phil
On 7/20/06, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A while back Maven moved to having the commits and issues on different
> mailing lists and it seems to be going well.
>
> So I'd like to suggest:
>
> commons-commits@jakarta.apache.org - reply-to to commons-dev
> commons-issues@jakarta.apache.org - reply-to to commons-dev
>
> I think the wiki notifications should stay on the dev list as they're
> relatively low in number and they don't require any kind of restricted
> authentication to get involved with. Any contributor can hop in and
> fix a spelling mistake.
>
> The obvious worry is over new committers not subscribing to those
> lists. Firstly we can obviously make a point of mentioning that to new
> committers - but mostly I think the number of Re: svn commit and Re:
> [JIRA] emails that will appear will make them wonder what they're
> missing.
>
> Another advantage of the above just happened on the Tomcat list. A
> mistake by a committer caused 2700 svn commits to be sent out (to
> nearly 1000 subscribers). The ASF mail server took a good many hours
> to recover - most of the day I think. So both those kind of errors,
> and the large JIRA reorgs we've been doing would be hitting less
> people.
>
> One question:
>
> Do we automatically subscribe everyone on dev@ and let them
> unsubscribe. Or start the lists empty.
>
> Hen
>
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>
>
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Dennis Lundberg <de...@apache.org>.
+1
--
Dennis Lundberg
Brett Porter wrote:
> +1 to this proposal. I'd also suggest starting the list with the full
> list of subscribers so nobody is immediately impacted.
>
> - Brett
>
>
> On 21/07/2006 10:15 AM, Henri Yandell wrote:
>> A while back Maven moved to having the commits and issues on different
>> mailing lists and it seems to be going well.
>>
>> So I'd like to suggest:
>>
>> commons-commits@jakarta.apache.org - reply-to to commons-dev
>> commons-issues@jakarta.apache.org - reply-to to commons-dev
>>
>> I think the wiki notifications should stay on the dev list as they're
>> relatively low in number and they don't require any kind of restricted
>> authentication to get involved with. Any contributor can hop in and
>> fix a spelling mistake.
>>
>> The obvious worry is over new committers not subscribing to those
>> lists. Firstly we can obviously make a point of mentioning that to new
>> committers - but mostly I think the number of Re: svn commit and Re:
>> [JIRA] emails that will appear will make them wonder what they're
>> missing.
>>
>> Another advantage of the above just happened on the Tomcat list. A
>> mistake by a committer caused 2700 svn commits to be sent out (to
>> nearly 1000 subscribers). The ASF mail server took a good many hours
>> to recover - most of the day I think. So both those kind of errors,
>> and the large JIRA reorgs we've been doing would be hitting less
>> people.
>>
>> One question:
>>
>> Do we automatically subscribe everyone on dev@ and let them
>> unsubscribe. Or start the lists empty.
>>
>> Hen
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: commons-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>
>
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>.
+1
Niall
On 7/21/06, Brett Porter <br...@apache.org> wrote:
> +1 to this proposal. I'd also suggest starting the list with the full
> list of subscribers so nobody is immediately impacted.
>
> - Brett
>
>
> On 21/07/2006 10:15 AM, Henri Yandell wrote:
> > A while back Maven moved to having the commits and issues on different
> > mailing lists and it seems to be going well.
> >
> > So I'd like to suggest:
> >
> > commons-commits@jakarta.apache.org - reply-to to commons-dev
> > commons-issues@jakarta.apache.org - reply-to to commons-dev
> >
> > I think the wiki notifications should stay on the dev list as they're
> > relatively low in number and they don't require any kind of restricted
> > authentication to get involved with. Any contributor can hop in and
> > fix a spelling mistake.
> >
> > The obvious worry is over new committers not subscribing to those
> > lists. Firstly we can obviously make a point of mentioning that to new
> > committers - but mostly I think the number of Re: svn commit and Re:
> > [JIRA] emails that will appear will make them wonder what they're
> > missing.
> >
> > Another advantage of the above just happened on the Tomcat list. A
> > mistake by a committer caused 2700 svn commits to be sent out (to
> > nearly 1000 subscribers). The ASF mail server took a good many hours
> > to recover - most of the day I think. So both those kind of errors,
> > and the large JIRA reorgs we've been doing would be hitting less
> > people.
> >
> > One question:
> >
> > Do we automatically subscribe everyone on dev@ and let them
> > unsubscribe. Or start the lists empty.
> >
> > Hen
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: commons-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
>
>
> --
> Apache Maven - http://maven.apache.org/
> Better Builds with Maven - http://library.mergere.com/
>
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Brett Porter <br...@apache.org>.
+1 to this proposal. I'd also suggest starting the list with the full
list of subscribers so nobody is immediately impacted.
- Brett
On 21/07/2006 10:15 AM, Henri Yandell wrote:
> A while back Maven moved to having the commits and issues on different
> mailing lists and it seems to be going well.
>
> So I'd like to suggest:
>
> commons-commits@jakarta.apache.org - reply-to to commons-dev
> commons-issues@jakarta.apache.org - reply-to to commons-dev
>
> I think the wiki notifications should stay on the dev list as they're
> relatively low in number and they don't require any kind of restricted
> authentication to get involved with. Any contributor can hop in and
> fix a spelling mistake.
>
> The obvious worry is over new committers not subscribing to those
> lists. Firstly we can obviously make a point of mentioning that to new
> committers - but mostly I think the number of Re: svn commit and Re:
> [JIRA] emails that will appear will make them wonder what they're
> missing.
>
> Another advantage of the above just happened on the Tomcat list. A
> mistake by a committer caused 2700 svn commits to be sent out (to
> nearly 1000 subscribers). The ASF mail server took a good many hours
> to recover - most of the day I think. So both those kind of errors,
> and the large JIRA reorgs we've been doing would be hitting less
> people.
>
> One question:
>
> Do we automatically subscribe everyone on dev@ and let them
> unsubscribe. Or start the lists empty.
>
> Hen
>
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 24/07/06, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/24/06, Simon Kitching <sk...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On Sat, 2006-07-22 at 21:53 -0700, Henri Yandell wrote:
> > > I had a thought just now on the multiple list concept - and a positive
> > > reason for splitting the lists in general. By having lists for
> > > commits, jira, wiki, ci etc filters become a lot, lot easier. Much
> > > easier for someone to come up with a list of commits they're
> > > interested in and we can have people who are interested in their own
> > > defined groupings while having to still see the general dev
> > > discussions as they come through.
> >
> > One problem is that of temporarily unsubscribing. We've all regularly
> > seen what happens when someone goes on holiday for a few weeks and sets
> > their email to auto-respond "out of office" without unsubscribing from
> > these lists first.
> >
> > When there are 4 commons lists, how are people going to manage this?
> >
> > I believe one commonly used mailing list system provides a web page
> > where you can "suspend" your subscriptions to all lists in one go. As
> > far as I know, though, the apache system doesn't provide this.
>
> Don't use your work email for open source mailing lists :) I can only
I'm surprised at how many companies (large ones too) let OOO e-mails
outside their company boundaries. These can provide valuable
information for social engineering purposes...
> see the out of office making sense if its a work email - otherwise I'd
> expect people to continue checking their mail or just let it build up.
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 7/24/06, Simon Kitching <sk...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Sat, 2006-07-22 at 21:53 -0700, Henri Yandell wrote:
> > I had a thought just now on the multiple list concept - and a positive
> > reason for splitting the lists in general. By having lists for
> > commits, jira, wiki, ci etc filters become a lot, lot easier. Much
> > easier for someone to come up with a list of commits they're
> > interested in and we can have people who are interested in their own
> > defined groupings while having to still see the general dev
> > discussions as they come through.
>
> One problem is that of temporarily unsubscribing. We've all regularly
> seen what happens when someone goes on holiday for a few weeks and sets
> their email to auto-respond "out of office" without unsubscribing from
> these lists first.
>
> When there are 4 commons lists, how are people going to manage this?
>
> I believe one commonly used mailing list system provides a web page
> where you can "suspend" your subscriptions to all lists in one go. As
> far as I know, though, the apache system doesn't provide this.
Don't use your work email for open source mailing lists :) I can only
see the out of office making sense if its a work email - otherwise I'd
expect people to continue checking their mail or just let it build up.
Hen
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Stephen Colebourne <sc...@btopenworld.com>.
Simon Kitching wrote:
> One problem is that of temporarily unsubscribing. We've all regularly
> seen what happens when someone goes on holiday for a few weeks and sets
> their email to auto-respond "out of office" without unsubscribing from
> these lists first.
>
> When there are 4 commons lists, how are people going to manage this?
Depends if we have 4 lists or not. I'd prefer two dev and auto, which
would be a little easier. Not that I ever unsubscribe
Stephen
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
On 7/24/06, Simon Kitching <sk...@apache.org> wrote:
> When there are 4 commons lists, how are people going to manage this?
Leave it to those, which are silly enough to use an autoreply for
mailing lists? After all, a little bit of education cannot hurt.
Jochen
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(Mark Twain)
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Dennis Lundberg <de...@apache.org>.
Simon Kitching wrote:
> On Sat, 2006-07-22 at 21:53 -0700, Henri Yandell wrote:
>> I had a thought just now on the multiple list concept - and a positive
>> reason for splitting the lists in general. By having lists for
>> commits, jira, wiki, ci etc filters become a lot, lot easier. Much
>> easier for someone to come up with a list of commits they're
>> interested in and we can have people who are interested in their own
>> defined groupings while having to still see the general dev
>> discussions as they come through.
>
> One problem is that of temporarily unsubscribing. We've all regularly
> seen what happens when someone goes on holiday for a few weeks and sets
> their email to auto-respond "out of office" without unsubscribing from
> these lists first.
This depends on how the mail server is set up. At my day job the
auto-responder only kicks in if the mail is addressed directly to me. If
the To: header contains something other than my address, for example the
address of a mailing list, it just doesn't send an auto-reply.
<snip/>
--
Dennis Lundberg
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Simon Kitching <sk...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 2006-07-22 at 21:53 -0700, Henri Yandell wrote:
> I had a thought just now on the multiple list concept - and a positive
> reason for splitting the lists in general. By having lists for
> commits, jira, wiki, ci etc filters become a lot, lot easier. Much
> easier for someone to come up with a list of commits they're
> interested in and we can have people who are interested in their own
> defined groupings while having to still see the general dev
> discussions as they come through.
One problem is that of temporarily unsubscribing. We've all regularly
seen what happens when someone goes on holiday for a few weeks and sets
their email to auto-respond "out of office" without unsubscribing from
these lists first.
When there are 4 commons lists, how are people going to manage this?
I believe one commonly used mailing list system provides a web page
where you can "suspend" your subscriptions to all lists in one go. As
far as I know, though, the apache system doesn't provide this.
Regards,
Simon
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 7/22/06, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/22/06, Stephen Colebourne <sc...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
> > The proposal suggests two new lists, but I'd argue thats unecessary. One
> > for svn, jira, wiki and gump is all thats needed. Basically everythng
> > that is non-discussion and *might* be regarded as 'spam'.
> >
> > So, +1 to one new list, commons-auto? commons-build?, commons-gen?
> >
> > Or perhaps this should be a jakarta-wide list if we are one-jakarta ;-)
>
> I'm not tied to multiple lists - so one list is fine by me.
I had a thought just now on the multiple list concept - and a positive
reason for splitting the lists in general. By having lists for
commits, jira, wiki, ci etc filters become a lot, lot easier. Much
easier for someone to come up with a list of commits they're
interested in and we can have people who are interested in their own
defined groupings while having to still see the general dev
discussions as they come through.
A far more predictable version of the [xxx] convention without the
risk that you'd miss the Re: svn commit emails.
The reason this occurred to me was that I pondered the 'mad'
suggestion of having dev@jakarta and thinking that it might not be as
mad as it sounds :)
Hen
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 7/22/06, Stephen Colebourne <sc...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
> The proposal suggests two new lists, but I'd argue thats unecessary. One
> for svn, jira, wiki and gump is all thats needed. Basically everythng
> that is non-discussion and *might* be regarded as 'spam'.
>
> So, +1 to one new list, commons-auto? commons-build?, commons-gen?
>
> Or perhaps this should be a jakarta-wide list if we are one-jakarta ;-)
I'm not tied to multiple lists - so one list is fine by me.
Probably worth asking the mail admins whether it would be
commons-commits (to match most others) or commons-auto (because we're
overloading the semantics).
Hen
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Dennis Lundberg <de...@apache.org>.
Stephen Colebourne wrote:
> This proposal has merit, in that it allows the main dev list room to
> breathe for discussion, which should be its primary purpose. It also has
> a very clear benefit in mail archive - in fact its really pretty
> essential for that.
>
> Some of the negative respones have focussed around what the needs of
> committers are, but I'd argue that we should be focussing on the needs
> of the 'users' - ie those who want to follow commons discussions, maybe
> chip in occasionaly, but are not interested in contributing/commiting.
> An excess of what can feel like spam will put some of these people off.
Good point! We are not doing this to please the committers, but trying
to breathe new life into the community.
> The proposal suggests two new lists, but I'd argue thats unecessary. One
> for svn, jira, wiki and gump is all thats needed. Basically everythng
> that is non-discussion and *might* be regarded as 'spam'.
Being a fairly new committer here, let me describe how my progress from
casual reader of the user list to committer has been:
1. Start using commons components
2. Ask questions on usage and help others where possible
= subscribe to users@
3. Listen in on discussions regarding the general progress and direction
of interesting components
= subscribe to dev@
4. Start reporting bugs and follow what new functionality will come in
the components that interest me
= subscribe to issues@
5. Look at the actual code changes made to the interesting components,
and start to submit code myself
= subscribe to commits@
My standpoint is that it will have a positive effect on non-committers
if we split the lists. I also think two new lists is a minimum. I would
consider adding notifications for gump or other CI systems, see this as
an example
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/maven-notifications/
>
> So, +1 to one new list, commons-auto? commons-build?, commons-gen?
>
> Or perhaps this should be a jakarta-wide list if we are one-jakarta ;-)
>
> Stephen
>
>
> Henri Yandell wrote:
>> A while back Maven moved to having the commits and issues on different
>> mailing lists and it seems to be going well.
>>
>> So I'd like to suggest:
>>
>> commons-commits@jakarta.apache.org - reply-to to commons-dev
>> commons-issues@jakarta.apache.org - reply-to to commons-dev
>>
>> I think the wiki notifications should stay on the dev list as they're
>> relatively low in number and they don't require any kind of restricted
>> authentication to get involved with. Any contributor can hop in and
>> fix a spelling mistake.
>>
>> The obvious worry is over new committers not subscribing to those
>> lists. Firstly we can obviously make a point of mentioning that to new
>> committers - but mostly I think the number of Re: svn commit and Re:
>> [JIRA] emails that will appear will make them wonder what they're
>> missing.
>>
>> Another advantage of the above just happened on the Tomcat list. A
>> mistake by a committer caused 2700 svn commits to be sent out (to
>> nearly 1000 subscribers). The ASF mail server took a good many hours
>> to recover - most of the day I think. So both those kind of errors,
>> and the large JIRA reorgs we've been doing would be hitting less
>> people.
>>
>> One question:
>>
>> Do we automatically subscribe everyone on dev@ and let them
>> unsubscribe. Or start the lists empty.
>>
>> Hen
>>
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>> For additional commands, e-mail: commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>>
>
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Re: [all] Splitting the mailing list
Posted by Stephen Colebourne <sc...@btopenworld.com>.
This proposal has merit, in that it allows the main dev list room to
breathe for discussion, which should be its primary purpose. It also has
a very clear benefit in mail archive - in fact its really pretty
essential for that.
Some of the negative respones have focussed around what the needs of
committers are, but I'd argue that we should be focussing on the needs
of the 'users' - ie those who want to follow commons discussions, maybe
chip in occasionaly, but are not interested in contributing/commiting.
An excess of what can feel like spam will put some of these people off.
The proposal suggests two new lists, but I'd argue thats unecessary. One
for svn, jira, wiki and gump is all thats needed. Basically everythng
that is non-discussion and *might* be regarded as 'spam'.
So, +1 to one new list, commons-auto? commons-build?, commons-gen?
Or perhaps this should be a jakarta-wide list if we are one-jakarta ;-)
Stephen
Henri Yandell wrote:
> A while back Maven moved to having the commits and issues on different
> mailing lists and it seems to be going well.
>
> So I'd like to suggest:
>
> commons-commits@jakarta.apache.org - reply-to to commons-dev
> commons-issues@jakarta.apache.org - reply-to to commons-dev
>
> I think the wiki notifications should stay on the dev list as they're
> relatively low in number and they don't require any kind of restricted
> authentication to get involved with. Any contributor can hop in and
> fix a spelling mistake.
>
> The obvious worry is over new committers not subscribing to those
> lists. Firstly we can obviously make a point of mentioning that to new
> committers - but mostly I think the number of Re: svn commit and Re:
> [JIRA] emails that will appear will make them wonder what they're
> missing.
>
> Another advantage of the above just happened on the Tomcat list. A
> mistake by a committer caused 2700 svn commits to be sent out (to
> nearly 1000 subscribers). The ASF mail server took a good many hours
> to recover - most of the day I think. So both those kind of errors,
> and the large JIRA reorgs we've been doing would be hitting less
> people.
>
> One question:
>
> Do we automatically subscribe everyone on dev@ and let them
> unsubscribe. Or start the lists empty.
>
> Hen
>
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>
>
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