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Posted to community@apache.org by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> on 2004/10/04 01:28:04 UTC
RE: Apache Community Worldwide -- again
David Crossley wrote:
> on what list can all committers discuss issues
> without fear of spilling the beans about something
> that is not yet decided by ASF?
None that I know of. There is no private discussion list for committers,
unlike members@.
--- Noel
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Re: private mailing list for committers (Was: Apache Community
Worldwide -- again)
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Sander Temme wrote:
> Stephen McConnell wrote:
> >>
> >> None that I know of. There is no private discussion list for
> > committers,
> >> unlike members@.
> >
> > The community@apache.org mailing list is used by the participants in
> > the
> > Apache Software Foundation to discuss general topics of interest to the
> > foundation. Participation in this list is only available to committers
> > of the Apache Software Foundation. [1]
>
> That's true, but the list messages are publicly archived, for instance
>
> http://issues.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?
> listName=community@apache.org&msgNo=3686
>
> There is no public archive for members@apache.org. Neither is there one
> for committers@apache.org, but that is used mostly for announcements
> that impact all committers.
Yes and committers@ is a mandatory list and not for discussion.
The committers-private@ list would be optional subscription.
--
David Crossley
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Re: Apache Community Worldwide -- again
Posted by Sander Temme <sa...@temme.net>.
On Oct 3, 2004, at 5:24 PM, Stephen McConnell wrote:
>>
>> None that I know of. There is no private discussion list for
> committers,
>> unlike members@.
>
> The community@apache.org mailing list is used by the participants in
> the
> Apache Software Foundation to discuss general topics of interest to the
> foundation. Participation in this list is only available to committers
> of the Apache Software Foundation. [1]
That's true, but the list messages are publicly archived, for instance
http://issues.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?
listName=community@apache.org&msgNo=3686
There is no public archive for members@apache.org. Neither is there one
for committers@apache.org, but that is used mostly for announcements
that impact all committers.
S.
--
sander@temme.net http://www.temme.net/sander/
PGP FP: 51B4 8727 466A 0BC3 69F4 B7B8 B2BE BC40 1529 24AF
Re: private mailing list for committers (Was: Apache Community
Worldwide -- again)
Posted by Felipe Leme <fe...@apache.org>.
+1 for a private list
I know this isn't a vote, but I agree we need such a list (as the
committers list is supposed to be used only for 'emergencies').
In fact, I didn't even know that community was archivable...
-- Felipe
On Sun, 2004-10-03 at 22:07, David Crossley wrote:
> Ah, but you missed the point Stephen. I was asking about
> an additional "private" discussion list which cannot be
> viewed by the public. There were two faux pas on this
> community@ list which led to my question. I have also
> been wondering this for ages, so it was timely to raise
> the issue.
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Re: private mailing list for committers
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Tue, 5 Oct 2004, Santiago Gala wrote:
> What would be the advantages?
The only advantage I can think of is that many hypothetical conversations
on members@ that want to be private would be able to include committers.
Every now and then I see an email that says "We should discuss this on
members" and I realise the thread is about to leave my awareness. That
said, many of these threads probably should be only going to members as
it's their role to make such shareholder style decisions so I don't think
having this list available would make any difference except to confuse
community@.
I'm a -0.
>> Suggestion:
>>
>> "world at apache dot org"
>>
>
> world does not fit well with a closed list. If it got approved (and I'm
> against it) I would rather choose a different name.
Agreed. -1 on world@.
Hen
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Re: private mailing list for committers
Posted by Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>.
El mar, 05-10-2004 a las 09:45 +0900, Tetsuya Kitahata escribió:
> Hi,
>
> > Thanks for posting the clarification - which would puts me in favor of
> > Felipe Leme's suggestion for a private list for committers.
> >
> > Steve.
>
> +1 -- I'm in favor, too.
>
What would be the advantages?
- I will not use even members@apache.org or board@apache.org for any
truly confidential issue. Lists with 130+ people inside are nos
trustable WRT confidentiality (1300+ people would be almost guarantee of
fast filtration).
OTOH, having a restricted but public list is beneficial for the
community as a whole (people can observe how we do operate from the
outside) and reduces "bad" behavior (people will feel ashamed about
certain messages and will refrain for sending them knowing that they
will be archived).
There are only a few restricted lists in the ASF:
- pmc lists
- members
- board
- fundraising, press and concom
and all those lists are open to all members (130+ currently and
growing).
The reason why those are confidential is because there are value
judgement about people occasionally. Also, in some cases, discussions
about the behavior of other companies or group which, while not beeing
exactly confidential, people would rather not make in a public forum.
A list "private" to 1300 people is not confidential no matter how you
look at it, so the only reason that I can see to make it a private list
would be for participants to avoid getting ashamed about "bad" behavior
in public. If this is indeed the reason, I'm strongly -1. If it is not,
I would like someone to explain me the benefits of having a "private"
list with 1300 subscribers. This discussion, BTW, is almost the same as
the one that other people listed, just before ApacheCON 2002, which
ended with community being restricted to post but archived. I would vote
completely open, and in fact I offered myself as a relay for any
non-committer wanted to expose ideas in the community@apache.org list,
and I do it again. (I reserve the right to not relay anything which
scores over 5 in my spamassassin setting :-P )
> Suggestion:
>
> "world at apache dot org"
>
world does not fit well with a closed list. If it got approved (and I'm
against it) I would rather choose a different name.
>
Regards
--
Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>
High Sierra Technology, SLU
Re: private mailing list for committers
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Hi,
> Thanks for posting the clarification - which would puts me in favor of
> Felipe Leme's suggestion for a private list for committers.
>
> Steve.
+1 -- I'm in favor, too.
Suggestion:
"world at apache dot org"
Cheers,
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International (Independent)
E-mail: tetsuya@apache.org (subject should be written in ASCII only)
RE: private mailing list for committers (Was: Apache CommunityWorldwide -- again)
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sander Temme [mailto:sander@temme.net]
> Sent: 04 October 2004 05:27
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: Re: private mailing list for committers (Was: Apache
> CommunityWorldwide -- again)
>
>
> On Oct 3, 2004, at 7:22 PM, Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
> > list should be private or public and I seem to remember that a
> > vote/poll
> > was taken at that time - and it was my understanding that archives
of
> > this list would not be public (consistent with the statement on the
ASF
> > pages I referenced above).
>
> Here's the vote we took at the time:
>
> http://issues.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?
> listName=community@apache.org&msgNo=383
>
> (and without public archives I would not have been able to find this).
Thanks for posting the clarification - which would puts me in favor of
Felipe Leme's suggestion for a private list for committers.
Steve.
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Re: private mailing list for committers (Was: Apache CommunityWorldwide -- again)
Posted by Sander Temme <sa...@temme.net>.
On Oct 3, 2004, at 7:22 PM, Stephen McConnell wrote:
> list should be private or public and I seem to remember that a
> vote/poll
> was taken at that time - and it was my understanding that archives of
> this list would not be public (consistent with the statement on the ASF
> pages I referenced above).
Here's the vote we took at the time:
http://issues.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?
listName=community@apache.org&msgNo=383
(and without public archives I would not have been able to find this).
S.
--
sander@temme.net http://www.temme.net/sander/
PGP FP: 51B4 8727 466A 0BC3 69F4 B7B8 B2BE BC40 1529 24AF
RE: private mailing list for committers (Was: Apache CommunityWorldwide -- again)
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Crossley [mailto:crossley@apache.org]
> Sent: 04 October 2004 03:07
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: private mailing list for committers (Was: Apache
> CommunityWorldwide -- again)
>
> Stephen McConnell wrote:
> > Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > David Crossley wrote:
> > > > on what list can all committers discuss issues
> > > > without fear of spilling the beans about something
> > > > that is not yet decided by ASF?
> > >
> > > None that I know of. There is no private discussion
> > > list for committers, unlike members@.
> >
> > My understanding differs.
> >
> > The community@apache.org mailing list is used by the participants in
the
> > Apache Software Foundation to discuss general topics of interest to
the
> > foundation. Participation in this list is only available to
committers
> > of the Apache Software Foundation. [1]
> >
> > Stephen.
> >
> > [1]
> >
http://www.apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html#foundation-community
>
> Ah, but you missed the point Stephen. I was asking about
> an additional "private" discussion list which cannot be
> viewed by the public. There were two faux pas on this
> community@ list which led to my question. I have also
> been wondering this for ages, so it was timely to raise
> the issue.
Way back probably more than two years ago a list called reorg was
created to deal with the subject of ASF reorganization. That was a most
interesting experience during which a lot of opinions were exchanged
about what this organization is. I could be wrong - but my
understanding was that this list was established as a indirect result of
that discussion - but I also remember lots of discussion about if the
list should be private or public and I seem to remember that a vote/poll
was taken at that time - and it was my understanding that archives of
this list would not be public (consistent with the statement on the ASF
pages I referenced above).
Personally I would be in favor of this list serving as forum for all
committers and for archives to me restricted to the same audience.
Cheers, Steve.
>
> --
> David Crossley
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
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private mailing list for committers (Was: Apache Community
Worldwide -- again)
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > David Crossley wrote:
> > > on what list can all committers discuss issues
> > > without fear of spilling the beans about something
> > > that is not yet decided by ASF?
> >
> > None that I know of. There is no private discussion
> > list for committers, unlike members@.
>
> My understanding differs.
>
> The community@apache.org mailing list is used by the participants in the
> Apache Software Foundation to discuss general topics of interest to the
> foundation. Participation in this list is only available to committers
> of the Apache Software Foundation. [1]
>
> Stephen.
>
> [1]
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html#foundation-community
Ah, but you missed the point Stephen. I was asking about
an additional "private" discussion list which cannot be
viewed by the public. There were two faux pas on this
community@ list which led to my question. I have also
been wondering this for ages, so it was timely to raise
the issue.
--
David Crossley
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RE: Apache Community Worldwide -- again
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
> Sent: 04 October 2004 01:28
> To: community@apache.org
> Subject: RE: Apache Community Worldwide -- again
>
> David Crossley wrote:
> > on what list can all committers discuss issues
> > without fear of spilling the beans about something
> > that is not yet decided by ASF?
>
> None that I know of. There is no private discussion list for
committers,
> unlike members@.
My understanding differs.
The community@apache.org mailing list is used by the participants in the
Apache Software Foundation to discuss general topics of interest to the
foundation. Participation in this list is only available to committers
of the Apache Software Foundation. [1]
Stephen.
[1]
http://www.apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html#foundation-community
>
> --- Noel
>
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