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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> on 2013/03/26 12:05:00 UTC
Creating announce@ lists by default
Incubator,
Is there a reason we don't recommend podlings create an announce@ list by
default?
I am under the impression that having a low-volume, high-signal
announcement channel is generally beneficial to most projects that try it.
And comes with almost zero Infra overhead.
I had a chat about this recently with Daniel Shahaf, and he was the one to
suggest we incubate projects with this list from the outset.
Thoughts on this?
Thanks,
--
NS
Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Matt Franklin <m....@gmail.com>.
On Tuesday, March 26, 2013, Andrei Savu wrote:
> I think we should see this as option and let the podling decide.
>
> In some cases it's useful but most of time it's enough if you filter
> the dev / user lists for messages that contain ANNOUNCE in the subject
> line.
+1
>
> -- Andrei Savu / axemblr.com
>
> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 7:50 PM, Noah Slater <nslater@apache.org<javascript:;>>
> wrote:
>
> > Why would you want to subscribe to the announce list of every new
> incubator
> > project? If you wanted to do that, you'd just subscribe to
> > general@incubator.apache.org <javascript:;>, or even announce@apache.org<javascript:;>
> .
> >
> > Please note, I am not suggesting we disband announce@apache.org<javascript:;>.
> We
> > already
> > have plenty of TLPs using announce@TLP.apache.org <javascript:;> lists,
> and they post to
> > that as well as announce@apache.org <javascript:;>.
> >
> > All I am suggesting is that we suggest to incubating projects that they
> > create an project specific announce@ list, so as to create a low-volume,
> > high-signal news channel. It is my experience that such things are
> useful.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 26 March 2013 17:44, Luciano Resende <luckbr1975@gmail.com<javascript:;>>
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 10:38 AM, Noah Slater <nslater@apache.org<javascript:;>
> >
> > wrote:
> > > > Yep. Obviously, I'm aware we have a foundation-wide announce list. :)
> > > >
> > > > It's not very helpful for people who are only interested in one or
> two
> > > > projects, however.
> > > >
> > > > If I am using Hadoop, and only care about knowing about new Hadoop
> > > releases
> > > > or security disclosures, I do not want to:
> > > >
> > > > a) subscribe to announce@apache.org <javascript:;>, and receive
> loads of
> > > > completely irrelevant junk, or
> > > > b) subscribe to user@hadoop.apache.org <javascript:;>, and receive
> even more
> > > > irrelevant junk
> > > >
> > > > Having a high-signal, low-volume announcements list would be
> beneficial
> > > for
> > > > most projects, IMO. And it seems like the sort of thing we should
> > > > be encouraging right from the start.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I think Hadoop would be the best example in ASF, if you really using
> > > Hadoop, you are probably using Haddop, HDFS, HBase, Oozie, and so
> > > on... the whole Hadoop Ecosystem projects... and imagine if you have
> > > to subscribe to all of those and to every new related incubator
> > > project that comes every month ?
> > >
> > > BTW, the traffic on this list is not really unmanageable and will
> > > definitely not make you consider that this new list is flooding your
> > > inbox.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Luciano Resende
> > > http://people.apache.org/~lresende
> > > http://twitter.com/lresende1975
> > > http://lresende.blogspot.com/
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org<javascript:;>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org<javascript:;>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > NS
> >
>
Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Andrei Savu <sa...@gmail.com>.
I think we should see this as option and let the podling decide.
In some cases it's useful but most of time it's enough if you filter
the dev / user lists for messages that contain ANNOUNCE in the subject
line.
-- Andrei Savu / axemblr.com
On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 7:50 PM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> Why would you want to subscribe to the announce list of every new incubator
> project? If you wanted to do that, you'd just subscribe to
> general@incubator.apache.org, or even announce@apache.org.
>
> Please note, I am not suggesting we disband announce@apache.org. We
> already
> have plenty of TLPs using announce@TLP.apache.org lists, and they post to
> that as well as announce@apache.org.
>
> All I am suggesting is that we suggest to incubating projects that they
> create an project specific announce@ list, so as to create a low-volume,
> high-signal news channel. It is my experience that such things are useful.
>
>
>
> On 26 March 2013 17:44, Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 10:38 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > > Yep. Obviously, I'm aware we have a foundation-wide announce list. :)
> > >
> > > It's not very helpful for people who are only interested in one or two
> > > projects, however.
> > >
> > > If I am using Hadoop, and only care about knowing about new Hadoop
> > releases
> > > or security disclosures, I do not want to:
> > >
> > > a) subscribe to announce@apache.org, and receive loads of
> > > completely irrelevant junk, or
> > > b) subscribe to user@hadoop.apache.org, and receive even more
> > > irrelevant junk
> > >
> > > Having a high-signal, low-volume announcements list would be beneficial
> > for
> > > most projects, IMO. And it seems like the sort of thing we should
> > > be encouraging right from the start.
> > >
> >
> >
> > I think Hadoop would be the best example in ASF, if you really using
> > Hadoop, you are probably using Haddop, HDFS, HBase, Oozie, and so
> > on... the whole Hadoop Ecosystem projects... and imagine if you have
> > to subscribe to all of those and to every new related incubator
> > project that comes every month ?
> >
> > BTW, the traffic on this list is not really unmanageable and will
> > definitely not make you consider that this new list is flooding your
> > inbox.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Luciano Resende
> > http://people.apache.org/~lresende
> > http://twitter.com/lresende1975
> > http://lresende.blogspot.com/
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> NS
>
Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
Why would you want to subscribe to the announce list of every new incubator
project? If you wanted to do that, you'd just subscribe to
general@incubator.apache.org, or even announce@apache.org.
Please note, I am not suggesting we disband announce@apache.org. We already
have plenty of TLPs using announce@TLP.apache.org lists, and they post to
that as well as announce@apache.org.
All I am suggesting is that we suggest to incubating projects that they
create an project specific announce@ list, so as to create a low-volume,
high-signal news channel. It is my experience that such things are useful.
On 26 March 2013 17:44, Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 10:38 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> > Yep. Obviously, I'm aware we have a foundation-wide announce list. :)
> >
> > It's not very helpful for people who are only interested in one or two
> > projects, however.
> >
> > If I am using Hadoop, and only care about knowing about new Hadoop
> releases
> > or security disclosures, I do not want to:
> >
> > a) subscribe to announce@apache.org, and receive loads of
> > completely irrelevant junk, or
> > b) subscribe to user@hadoop.apache.org, and receive even more
> > irrelevant junk
> >
> > Having a high-signal, low-volume announcements list would be beneficial
> for
> > most projects, IMO. And it seems like the sort of thing we should
> > be encouraging right from the start.
> >
>
>
> I think Hadoop would be the best example in ASF, if you really using
> Hadoop, you are probably using Haddop, HDFS, HBase, Oozie, and so
> on... the whole Hadoop Ecosystem projects... and imagine if you have
> to subscribe to all of those and to every new related incubator
> project that comes every month ?
>
> BTW, the traffic on this list is not really unmanageable and will
> definitely not make you consider that this new list is flooding your
> inbox.
>
>
> --
> Luciano Resende
> http://people.apache.org/~lresende
> http://twitter.com/lresende1975
> http://lresende.blogspot.com/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
NS
Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 10:38 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> Yep. Obviously, I'm aware we have a foundation-wide announce list. :)
>
> It's not very helpful for people who are only interested in one or two
> projects, however.
>
> If I am using Hadoop, and only care about knowing about new Hadoop releases
> or security disclosures, I do not want to:
>
> a) subscribe to announce@apache.org, and receive loads of
> completely irrelevant junk, or
> b) subscribe to user@hadoop.apache.org, and receive even more
> irrelevant junk
>
> Having a high-signal, low-volume announcements list would be beneficial for
> most projects, IMO. And it seems like the sort of thing we should
> be encouraging right from the start.
>
I think Hadoop would be the best example in ASF, if you really using
Hadoop, you are probably using Haddop, HDFS, HBase, Oozie, and so
on... the whole Hadoop Ecosystem projects... and imagine if you have
to subscribe to all of those and to every new related incubator
project that comes every month ?
BTW, the traffic on this list is not really unmanageable and will
definitely not make you consider that this new list is flooding your
inbox.
--
Luciano Resende
http://people.apache.org/~lresende
http://twitter.com/lresende1975
http://lresende.blogspot.com/
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
Yep. Obviously, I'm aware we have a foundation-wide announce list. :)
It's not very helpful for people who are only interested in one or two
projects, however.
If I am using Hadoop, and only care about knowing about new Hadoop releases
or security disclosures, I do not want to:
a) subscribe to announce@apache.org, and receive loads of
completely irrelevant junk, or
b) subscribe to user@hadoop.apache.org, and receive even more
irrelevant junk
Having a high-signal, low-volume announcements list would be beneficial for
most projects, IMO. And it seems like the sort of thing we should
be encouraging right from the start.
On 26 March 2013 17:23, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 6:21 PM, Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > ...We already have a Apache wide announce list, which is used for release
> > announcements and probably can or is already used for the other things
> > you mentioned....
>
> Yes, see
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html#foundation-announce
>
> -Bertrand
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
NS
Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 6:21 PM, Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...We already have a Apache wide announce list, which is used for release
> announcements and probably can or is already used for the other things
> you mentioned....
Yes, see http://www.apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html#foundation-announce
-Bertrand
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Joe Brockmeier <jz...@zonker.net>.
On Tue, Mar 26, 2013, at 12:21 PM, Luciano Resende wrote:
> If I was the press/analyst folks or security/sysadmin folks, I'd
> probably prefer to receive all these announcements over one list, then
> having to figure out every announcement list for each apache project
> in use in my infrastructure or that I'm interested in.
/me puts on my former press hat
It depends a lot on whether I cover all open source or a specific
project. If I care only about one or two Apache projects, I probably
don't want to get all Apache announcements. Folks who care/write about
OpenOffice, for instance, aren't going to necessarily want announcements
about Whirr or Hadoop.
AFAIC, having project-specific announce lists is good practice.
Best,
jzb
--
Joe Brockmeier
jzb@zonker.net
Twitter: @jzb
http://www.dissociatedpress.net/
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 10:14 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> Luciano, release announcements and security disclosures.
>
> Jordan, can you clarify what you understand by "be maintained"? Just to be
> clear, this is a one time operation, and as far as I know, comes with no
> maintenance costs whatsoever. So the "too much" part of "too much for
> little gain" doesn't appear to make sense.
>
> The announce@ list is typically subscribed to by press/analyst folks,
> security/sysadmin folks, and people interested in new releases but who have
> no interest in participating in the community.
>
> I believe a low-volume announcement channel like this could be beneficial
> for most projects. It certainly couldn't hurt to at least recommend/suggest
> this as a list when setting up the podling.
>
We already have a Apache wide announce list, which is used for release
announcements and probably can or is already used for the other things
you mentioned.
If I was the press/analyst folks or security/sysadmin folks, I'd
probably prefer to receive all these announcements over one list, then
having to figure out every announcement list for each apache project
in use in my infrastructure or that I'm interested in.
Having said that, in the case of podlings, we try to discourage even
the creation of a user list, and concentrate all the traffic in the
dev list to help build the community.
--
Luciano Resende
http://people.apache.org/~lresende
http://twitter.com/lresende1975
http://lresende.blogspot.com/
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
Luciano, release announcements and security disclosures.
Jordan, can you clarify what you understand by "be maintained"? Just to be
clear, this is a one time operation, and as far as I know, comes with no
maintenance costs whatsoever. So the "too much" part of "too much for
little gain" doesn't appear to make sense.
The announce@ list is typically subscribed to by press/analyst folks,
security/sysadmin folks, and people interested in new releases but who have
no interest in participating in the community.
I believe a low-volume announcement channel like this could be beneficial
for most projects. It certainly couldn't hurt to at least recommend/suggest
this as a list when setting up the podling.
On 26 March 2013 17:09, Jordan Zimmerman <jo...@jordanzimmerman.com> wrote:
> There are already 3 public and 1 private lists that have to be maintained.
> Another list just for announcements seems like too much for little gain.
> The users list should suffice for announcements (with [ANN] in the subject).
>
> -JZ
>
> On Mar 26, 2013, at 4:05 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Incubator,
> >
> > Is there a reason we don't recommend podlings create an announce@ list
> by
> > default?
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
NS
Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Jordan Zimmerman <jo...@jordanzimmerman.com>.
There are already 3 public and 1 private lists that have to be maintained. Another list just for announcements seems like too much for little gain. The users list should suffice for announcements (with [ANN] in the subject).
-JZ
On Mar 26, 2013, at 4:05 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> Incubator,
>
> Is there a reason we don't recommend podlings create an announce@ list by
> default?
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 4:05 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> Incubator,
>
> Is there a reason we don't recommend podlings create an announce@ list by
> default?
>
> I am under the impression that having a low-volume, high-signal
> announcement channel is generally beneficial to most projects that try it.
> And comes with almost zero Infra overhead.
>
> I had a chat about this recently with Daniel Shahaf, and he was the one to
> suggest we incubate projects with this list from the outset.
>
> Thoughts on this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> NS
What would be the contents distributed on this list ?
--
Luciano Resende
http://people.apache.org/~lresende
http://twitter.com/lresende1975
http://lresende.blogspot.com/
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 6:14 PM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 4:05 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> I am under the impression that having a low-volume, high-signal
>> announcement channel is generally beneficial to most projects that try it.
>
> I agree that such lists are useful. I like to subscribe to individual
> announce lists for security purposes because aggregate lists like
> debian-security-announce generally lag behind upstream. Individual dev lists
> and announce@a.o are too high traffic and programming text-based filters is
> tricky because conventions like "ANNOUNCE" are not adhered to 100% of the
> time.
>
Do the general announce list lag behind because there are individual lists ?
> As to whether such lists should be encouraged for new podlings (probably by
> putting a stub in the proposal template alongside the other lists), I can't
> say that I have a strong opinion.
>
--
Luciano Resende
http://people.apache.org/~lresende
http://twitter.com/lresende1975
http://lresende.blogspot.com/
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
"Wade" might be a little OTT. ;) I think the doc is too terse, if anything.
(But actually, I think it strikes the balance very well.)
On 3 July 2013 17:51, Eric Johnson <er...@tibco.com> wrote:
> My one suggestion would be to group all the historical patterns/commentary
> at the end of the document. That way, people looking for specific
> information about current practices will not have to wade through
> historical information.
>
> Eric
>
>
> On 7/2/13 6:59 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
>
>> On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Marvin,
>>>
>>> Did you get anywhere with this?
>>>
>> Finally, yes. I've written up the subject on the Incubator wiki and
>> linked to
>> it from the proposal guide.
>>
>> https://wiki.apache.org/**incubator/MailingListOptions<https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/MailingListOptions>
>> http://incubator.apache.org/**guides/proposal.html#template-**
>> mailing-lists<http://incubator.apache.org/guides/proposal.html#template-mailing-lists>
>>
>> I'm having second thoughts about where it should live permanently, though.
>> The Incubator's documentation could withstand some reorganization and I'm
>> contemplating some proposals which I'll put forth in a little while.
>>
>> Marvin Humphrey
>>
>> On 30 March 2013 15:39, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Greg. Sane advice. I'll add this to my todo list and see if I
>>>>> can
>>>>> come up with a patch for the docs.
>>>>>
>>>> The obvious place to patch is the descriptive paragraph here:
>>>>
>>>> http://incubator.apache.org/**guides/proposal.html#template-**
>>>> mailing-lists<http://incubator.apache.org/guides/proposal.html#template-mailing-lists>
>>>>
>>>> However, I question whether decisions about mailing lists should be
>>>> made by
>>>> the small group that typically works up a proposal. Why not start off
>>>> with
>>>> just a dev list and have the entire community participate in discussions
>>>> about what additional mailing lists to add?
>>>>
>>>> * Do we need a user@ list yet?
>>>> * Where should commit notifications be sent?
>>>> * Where should issue tracker notifications be sent?
>>>> * Should we add an announce@ list?
>>>>
>>>> These questions all have interesting implications with regard to
>>>> community
>>>> dynamics, and I think it would benefit podlings to be considering them
>>>> early on.
>>>>
>>>> So, I'd like to propose a page describing the various mailing list
>>>> choices
>>>> that top-level Apache projects have made and the tradeoffs, which I
>>>> volunteer to write and which I think ought to live on community.a.o
>>>> rather
>>>> than incubator.a.o.
>>>>
>>>> Once that page is live, I propose that we modify the proposal template
>>>> so
>>>> that the default is only a dev list. Mailing list expansion then
>>>> becomes
>>>> part of the incubation curriculum, along with code import, header
>>>> change,
>>>> preparation of a release management procedure, making a release,
>>>> recruiting
>>>> new contributors/committers/PMC-**members, and so on.
>>>>
>>>> Marvin Humphrey
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**
>>>> ---------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.**apache.org<ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.**org<ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> NS
>>>
>> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.**apache.org<ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.**org<ge...@incubator.apache.org>
>>
>>
>
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.**apache.org<ge...@incubator.apache.org>
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>
>
--
NS
Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Eric Johnson <er...@tibco.com>.
My one suggestion would be to group all the historical
patterns/commentary at the end of the document. That way, people looking
for specific information about current practices will not have to wade
through historical information.
Eric
On 7/2/13 6:59 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
> On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>> Hey Marvin,
>>
>> Did you get anywhere with this?
> Finally, yes. I've written up the subject on the Incubator wiki and linked to
> it from the proposal guide.
>
> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/MailingListOptions
> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/proposal.html#template-mailing-lists
>
> I'm having second thoughts about where it should live permanently, though.
> The Incubator's documentation could withstand some reorganization and I'm
> contemplating some proposals which I'll put forth in a little while.
>
> Marvin Humphrey
>
>> On 30 March 2013 15:39, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> Thanks Greg. Sane advice. I'll add this to my todo list and see if I can
>>>> come up with a patch for the docs.
>>> The obvious place to patch is the descriptive paragraph here:
>>>
>>> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/proposal.html#template-mailing-lists
>>>
>>> However, I question whether decisions about mailing lists should be made by
>>> the small group that typically works up a proposal. Why not start off with
>>> just a dev list and have the entire community participate in discussions
>>> about what additional mailing lists to add?
>>>
>>> * Do we need a user@ list yet?
>>> * Where should commit notifications be sent?
>>> * Where should issue tracker notifications be sent?
>>> * Should we add an announce@ list?
>>>
>>> These questions all have interesting implications with regard to community
>>> dynamics, and I think it would benefit podlings to be considering them
>>> early on.
>>>
>>> So, I'd like to propose a page describing the various mailing list choices
>>> that top-level Apache projects have made and the tradeoffs, which I
>>> volunteer to write and which I think ought to live on community.a.o rather
>>> than incubator.a.o.
>>>
>>> Once that page is live, I propose that we modify the proposal template so
>>> that the default is only a dev list. Mailing list expansion then becomes
>>> part of the incubation curriculum, along with code import, header change,
>>> preparation of a release management procedure, making a release, recruiting
>>> new contributors/committers/PMC-members, and so on.
>>>
>>> Marvin Humphrey
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> --
>> NS
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (398J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
+1 great work Marvin.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
Senior Computer Scientist
NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Date: Tuesday, July 2, 2013 7:32 PM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
>On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>
>wrote:
>> On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> Hey Marvin,
>>>
>>> Did you get anywhere with this?
>>
>> Finally, yes. I've written up the subject on the Incubator wiki and
>>linked to
>> it from the proposal guide.
>>
>> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/MailingListOptions
>
>Hell yeah!! I <3 that page. Repeat: <3
>
>Great job, Marvin! I have zero suggestions to improve.
>
>(now just save it under www.a.o/dev/ and get it fully linked in from
>everywhere)
>
>Cheers,
>-g
>
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
> On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>> Hey Marvin,
>>
>> Did you get anywhere with this?
>
> Finally, yes. I've written up the subject on the Incubator wiki and linked to
> it from the proposal guide.
>
> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/MailingListOptions
Hell yeah!! I <3 that page. Repeat: <3
Great job, Marvin! I have zero suggestions to improve.
(now just save it under www.a.o/dev/ and get it fully linked in from everywhere)
Cheers,
-g
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
Nice. Thanks Marvin!
On 3 July 2013 06:00, Craig L Russell <cr...@oracle.com> wrote:
> Marvin,
>
> Nice work. +1
>
> Craig
>
> On Jul 2, 2013, at 6:59 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
>
> > On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> >> Hey Marvin,
> >>
> >> Did you get anywhere with this?
> >
> > Finally, yes. I've written up the subject on the Incubator wiki and
> linked to
> > it from the proposal guide.
> >
> > https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/MailingListOptions
> > http://incubator.apache.org/guides/proposal.html#template-mailing-lists
> >
> > I'm having second thoughts about where it should live permanently,
> though.
> > The Incubator's documentation could withstand some reorganization and I'm
> > contemplating some proposals which I'll put forth in a little while.
> >
> > Marvin Humphrey
> >
> >> On 30 March 2013 15:39, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >>>> Thanks Greg. Sane advice. I'll add this to my todo list and see if I
> can
> >>>> come up with a patch for the docs.
> >>>
> >>> The obvious place to patch is the descriptive paragraph here:
> >>>
> >>>
> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/proposal.html#template-mailing-lists
> >>>
> >>> However, I question whether decisions about mailing lists should be
> made by
> >>> the small group that typically works up a proposal. Why not start off
> with
> >>> just a dev list and have the entire community participate in
> discussions
> >>> about what additional mailing lists to add?
> >>>
> >>> * Do we need a user@ list yet?
> >>> * Where should commit notifications be sent?
> >>> * Where should issue tracker notifications be sent?
> >>> * Should we add an announce@ list?
> >>>
> >>> These questions all have interesting implications with regard to
> community
> >>> dynamics, and I think it would benefit podlings to be considering them
> >>> early on.
> >>>
> >>> So, I'd like to propose a page describing the various mailing list
> choices
> >>> that top-level Apache projects have made and the tradeoffs, which I
> >>> volunteer to write and which I think ought to live on community.a.o
> rather
> >>> than incubator.a.o.
> >>>
> >>> Once that page is live, I propose that we modify the proposal template
> so
> >>> that the default is only a dev list. Mailing list expansion then
> becomes
> >>> part of the incubation curriculum, along with code import, header
> change,
> >>> preparation of a release management procedure, making a release,
> recruiting
> >>> new contributors/committers/PMC-members, and so on.
> >>>
> >>> Marvin Humphrey
> >>>
> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >> --
> >> NS
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
>
> Craig L Russell
> Architect, Oracle
> http://db.apache.org/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
>
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>
--
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Craig L Russell <cr...@oracle.com>.
Marvin,
Nice work. +1
Craig
On Jul 2, 2013, at 6:59 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
> On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>> Hey Marvin,
>>
>> Did you get anywhere with this?
>
> Finally, yes. I've written up the subject on the Incubator wiki and linked to
> it from the proposal guide.
>
> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/MailingListOptions
> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/proposal.html#template-mailing-lists
>
> I'm having second thoughts about where it should live permanently, though.
> The Incubator's documentation could withstand some reorganization and I'm
> contemplating some proposals which I'll put forth in a little while.
>
> Marvin Humphrey
>
>> On 30 March 2013 15:39, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> Thanks Greg. Sane advice. I'll add this to my todo list and see if I can
>>>> come up with a patch for the docs.
>>>
>>> The obvious place to patch is the descriptive paragraph here:
>>>
>>> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/proposal.html#template-mailing-lists
>>>
>>> However, I question whether decisions about mailing lists should be made by
>>> the small group that typically works up a proposal. Why not start off with
>>> just a dev list and have the entire community participate in discussions
>>> about what additional mailing lists to add?
>>>
>>> * Do we need a user@ list yet?
>>> * Where should commit notifications be sent?
>>> * Where should issue tracker notifications be sent?
>>> * Should we add an announce@ list?
>>>
>>> These questions all have interesting implications with regard to community
>>> dynamics, and I think it would benefit podlings to be considering them
>>> early on.
>>>
>>> So, I'd like to propose a page describing the various mailing list choices
>>> that top-level Apache projects have made and the tradeoffs, which I
>>> volunteer to write and which I think ought to live on community.a.o rather
>>> than incubator.a.o.
>>>
>>> Once that page is live, I propose that we modify the proposal template so
>>> that the default is only a dev list. Mailing list expansion then becomes
>>> part of the incubation curriculum, along with code import, header change,
>>> preparation of a release management procedure, making a release, recruiting
>>> new contributors/committers/PMC-members, and so on.
>>>
>>> Marvin Humphrey
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>> --
>> NS
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>
Craig L Russell
Architect, Oracle
http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hey Marvin,
>
> Did you get anywhere with this?
Finally, yes. I've written up the subject on the Incubator wiki and linked to
it from the proposal guide.
https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/MailingListOptions
http://incubator.apache.org/guides/proposal.html#template-mailing-lists
I'm having second thoughts about where it should live permanently, though.
The Incubator's documentation could withstand some reorganization and I'm
contemplating some proposals which I'll put forth in a little while.
Marvin Humphrey
> On 30 March 2013 15:39, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>> > Thanks Greg. Sane advice. I'll add this to my todo list and see if I can
>> > come up with a patch for the docs.
>>
>> The obvious place to patch is the descriptive paragraph here:
>>
>> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/proposal.html#template-mailing-lists
>>
>> However, I question whether decisions about mailing lists should be made by
>> the small group that typically works up a proposal. Why not start off with
>> just a dev list and have the entire community participate in discussions
>> about what additional mailing lists to add?
>>
>> * Do we need a user@ list yet?
>> * Where should commit notifications be sent?
>> * Where should issue tracker notifications be sent?
>> * Should we add an announce@ list?
>>
>> These questions all have interesting implications with regard to community
>> dynamics, and I think it would benefit podlings to be considering them
>> early on.
>>
>> So, I'd like to propose a page describing the various mailing list choices
>> that top-level Apache projects have made and the tradeoffs, which I
>> volunteer to write and which I think ought to live on community.a.o rather
>> than incubator.a.o.
>>
>> Once that page is live, I propose that we modify the proposal template so
>> that the default is only a dev list. Mailing list expansion then becomes
>> part of the incubation curriculum, along with code import, header change,
>> preparation of a release management procedure, making a release, recruiting
>> new contributors/committers/PMC-members, and so on.
>>
>> Marvin Humphrey
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
> --
> NS
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
Hey Marvin,
Did you get anywhere with this?
Thanks,
On 30 March 2013 15:39, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> > Thanks Greg. Sane advice. I'll add this to my todo list and see if I can
> > come up with a patch for the docs.
>
> The obvious place to patch is the descriptive paragraph here:
>
> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/proposal.html#template-mailing-lists
>
> However, I question whether decisions about mailing lists should be made by
> the small group that typically works up a proposal. Why not start off with
> just a dev list and have the entire community participate in discussions
> about
> what additional mailing lists to add?
>
> * Do we need a user@ list yet?
> * Where should commit notifications be sent?
> * Where should issue tracker notifications be sent?
> * Should we add an announce@ list?
>
> These questions all have interesting implications with regard to community
> dynamics, and I think it would benefit podlings to be considering them
> early
> on.
>
> So, I'd like to propose a page describing the various mailing list choices
> that top-level Apache projects have made and the tradeoffs, which I
> volunteer
> to write and which I think ought to live on community.a.o rather than
> incubator.a.o.
>
> Once that page is live, I propose that we modify the proposal template so
> that
> the default is only a dev list. Mailing list expansion then becomes part
> of
> the incubation curriculum, along with code import, header change,
> preparation
> of a release management procedure, making a release, recruiting new
> contributors/committers/PMC-members, and so on.
>
> Marvin Humphrey
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
NS
Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
I really like this idea, Marvin. If you're gonna run with it, I'll take a
step back.
On 30 March 2013 15:39, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> > Thanks Greg. Sane advice. I'll add this to my todo list and see if I can
> > come up with a patch for the docs.
>
> The obvious place to patch is the descriptive paragraph here:
>
> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/proposal.html#template-mailing-lists
>
> However, I question whether decisions about mailing lists should be made by
> the small group that typically works up a proposal. Why not start off with
> just a dev list and have the entire community participate in discussions
> about
> what additional mailing lists to add?
>
> * Do we need a user@ list yet?
> * Where should commit notifications be sent?
> * Where should issue tracker notifications be sent?
> * Should we add an announce@ list?
>
> These questions all have interesting implications with regard to community
> dynamics, and I think it would benefit podlings to be considering them
> early
> on.
>
> So, I'd like to propose a page describing the various mailing list choices
> that top-level Apache projects have made and the tradeoffs, which I
> volunteer
> to write and which I think ought to live on community.a.o rather than
> incubator.a.o.
>
> Once that page is live, I propose that we modify the proposal template so
> that
> the default is only a dev list. Mailing list expansion then becomes part
> of
> the incubation curriculum, along with code import, header change,
> preparation
> of a release management procedure, making a release, recruiting new
> contributors/committers/PMC-members, and so on.
>
> Marvin Humphrey
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
NS
Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> Thanks Greg. Sane advice. I'll add this to my todo list and see if I can
> come up with a patch for the docs.
The obvious place to patch is the descriptive paragraph here:
http://incubator.apache.org/guides/proposal.html#template-mailing-lists
However, I question whether decisions about mailing lists should be made by
the small group that typically works up a proposal. Why not start off with
just a dev list and have the entire community participate in discussions about
what additional mailing lists to add?
* Do we need a user@ list yet?
* Where should commit notifications be sent?
* Where should issue tracker notifications be sent?
* Should we add an announce@ list?
These questions all have interesting implications with regard to community
dynamics, and I think it would benefit podlings to be considering them early
on.
So, I'd like to propose a page describing the various mailing list choices
that top-level Apache projects have made and the tradeoffs, which I volunteer
to write and which I think ought to live on community.a.o rather than
incubator.a.o.
Once that page is live, I propose that we modify the proposal template so that
the default is only a dev list. Mailing list expansion then becomes part of
the incubation curriculum, along with code import, header change, preparation
of a release management procedure, making a release, recruiting new
contributors/committers/PMC-members, and so on.
Marvin Humphrey
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
Thanks Greg. Sane advice. I'll add this to my todo list and see if I can
come up with a patch for the docs.
On 28 March 2013 06:50, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 2:46 PM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> >...
> > I don't believe we should force an announce@ list on anybody. But I do
> > think it might be a good idea to mention a few of the standard lists that
> > projects might consider requesting.
>
> No strong opinion. Generally, I don't think podlings have much to
> announce. A few releases, at most, before they graduate. IMO, just put
> those on announce@ and be done with it.
>
> Large communities arriving at the Incubator could certainly do well
> with an announce@. But new/small projects? Not so much.
>
> > user@, dev@, announce@, etc. commits@ is required. When you're community
> > grows, you may want to consider tickets@, and general@, etc. CloudStack
> had
> > marketing@ before we graduated, even.
>
> Note: as mentioned else-thread, we strongly discourage a users@
> mailing list for podlings. (or more precisely, those building *new*
> communities)
>
> >> Oh, and while we are at it: some a.o projects have users@project.a.o(plural)
> and others have user@project.a.o(singular). We should at least unify this
> for the upcoming podlings pretty
> >> please ;)
> >
> > Sounds sensible.
>
> Agreed. I took a quick look on mail-archive.a.o, and it appears that
> user@ is more popular than users@ (185 vs 76).
>
> (bummer, cuz svn uses users@ ...)
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
NS
Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 2:46 PM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>...
> I don't believe we should force an announce@ list on anybody. But I do
> think it might be a good idea to mention a few of the standard lists that
> projects might consider requesting.
No strong opinion. Generally, I don't think podlings have much to
announce. A few releases, at most, before they graduate. IMO, just put
those on announce@ and be done with it.
Large communities arriving at the Incubator could certainly do well
with an announce@. But new/small projects? Not so much.
> user@, dev@, announce@, etc. commits@ is required. When you're community
> grows, you may want to consider tickets@, and general@, etc. CloudStack had
> marketing@ before we graduated, even.
Note: as mentioned else-thread, we strongly discourage a users@
mailing list for podlings. (or more precisely, those building *new*
communities)
>> Oh, and while we are at it: some a.o projects have users@project.a.o(plural) and others have user@project.a.o(singular). We should at least unify this for the upcoming podlings pretty
>> please ;)
>
> Sounds sensible.
Agreed. I took a quick look on mail-archive.a.o, and it appears that
user@ is more popular than users@ (185 vs 76).
(bummer, cuz svn uses users@ ...)
Cheers,
-g
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
On 27 March 2013 18:37, Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de> wrote:
> My personal experience: There are a few people registered to
> announce@apache.org, but there is a low registration rate for the
> respective subproject lists. At least not for most projects.
>
That's to be expected, though, right? We have something like 130 TLPs. Even
if a TLP has a respectable amount of press/analysts/end-users subscribing
to the announcement list, we'd not expect that number to be more than the
overall foundation announcement list, which caters to a much bigger
audience.
> Thus said: if you would create an announce list for all projects and send
> the ANN mails only to those lists, then only 30% of the audience will
> receive it.
> Some projects don't even maintain separated dev and users lists. Thus I
> believe forcing an ann list for each and every project is an overkill.
>
I don't believe we should force an announce@ list on anybody. But I do
think it might be a good idea to mention a few of the standard lists that
projects might consider requesting.
user@, dev@, announce@, etc. commits@ is required. When you're community
grows, you may want to consider tickets@, and general@, etc. CloudStack had
marketing@ before we graduated, even.
> Oh, and while we are at it: some a.o projects have users@project.a.o(plural) and others have user@project.a.o(singular). We should at least unify this for the upcoming podlings pretty
> please ;)
>
Sounds sensible.
--
NS
Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de>.
My personal experience: There are a few people registered to announce@apache.org, but there is a low registration rate for the respective subproject lists. At least not for most projects.
Thus said: if you would create an announce list for all projects and send the ANN mails only to those lists, then only 30% of the audience will receive it.
Some projects don't even maintain separated dev and users lists. Thus I believe forcing an ann list for each and every project is an overkill.
Oh, and while we are at it: some a.o projects have users@project.a.o (plural) and others have user@project.a.o (singular). We should at least unify this for the upcoming podlings pretty please ;)
just my $2E-2
LieGrue,
strub
----- Original Message -----
> From: Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Cc:
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2013 7:14 PM
> Subject: Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>>> So we just set out a policy for podlings to follow that says something
>>> like: if you use a project-specific announce@ list, anything you send
> to it
>>> must also be copied to announce@apache.org, and vice-versa.
>>>
>>> This is how I expect all announce lists to be used.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Is there a way to automate what you just said ? Assuming the same
>> restrictions to send announcements applies to both announce@ and
>> project-announce@, then anything sent to project-announce@ gets
>> automatically copied to announce@apache.org ?
>>
>> Thoughts ?
>>
>
> I guess this is how it's done on announce@subversion, see [1]
>
> "The mail to announce@subversion.a.o will also be forwarded to
> announce@a.o"
>
> I'd be ok with this approach.
>
> [1]
> http://subversion.apache.org/docs/community-guide/releasing.html#releasing-release
>
>
> --
> Luciano Resende
> http://people.apache.org/~lresende
> http://twitter.com/lresende1975
> http://lresende.blogspot.com/
>
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>> So we just set out a policy for podlings to follow that says something
>> like: if you use a project-specific announce@ list, anything you send to it
>> must also be copied to announce@apache.org, and vice-versa.
>>
>> This is how I expect all announce lists to be used.
>>
>>
>
> Is there a way to automate what you just said ? Assuming the same
> restrictions to send announcements applies to both announce@ and
> project-announce@, then anything sent to project-announce@ gets
> automatically copied to announce@apache.org ?
>
> Thoughts ?
>
I guess this is how it's done on announce@subversion, see [1]
"The mail to announce@subversion.a.o will also be forwarded to announce@a.o"
I'd be ok with this approach.
[1] http://subversion.apache.org/docs/community-guide/releasing.html#releasing-release
--
Luciano Resende
http://people.apache.org/~lresende
http://twitter.com/lresende1975
http://lresende.blogspot.com/
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
Putting it in policy is probably as close as we can get to automation. ;)
On 27 March 2013 17:23, Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> > So we just set out a policy for podlings to follow that says something
> > like: if you use a project-specific announce@ list, anything you send
> to it
> > must also be copied to announce@apache.org, and vice-versa.
> >
> > This is how I expect all announce lists to be used.
> >
> >
>
> Is there a way to automate what you just said ? Assuming the same
> restrictions to send announcements applies to both announce@ and
> project-announce@, then anything sent to project-announce@ gets
> automatically copied to announce@apache.org ?
>
> Thoughts ?
>
> --
> Luciano Resende
> http://people.apache.org/~lresende
> http://twitter.com/lresende1975
> http://lresende.blogspot.com/
>
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>
>
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NS
Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 27 March 2013 17:23, Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
>> So we just set out a policy for podlings to follow that says something
>> like: if you use a project-specific announce@ list, anything you send to it
>> must also be copied to announce@apache.org, and vice-versa.
>>
>> This is how I expect all announce lists to be used.
>>
>>
>
> Is there a way to automate what you just said ? Assuming the same
> restrictions to send announcements applies to both announce@ and
> project-announce@,
I don't know if announce@project.a.o has the same restrictions.
I've not found an example of a non-ASF address posting to such a list,
but that does not mean it's not possible.
> then anything sent to project-announce@ gets
> automatically copied to announce@apache.org ?
>
> Thoughts ?
There may be good reasons for *sometimes* not copying announce@ASF.
> --
> Luciano Resende
> http://people.apache.org/~lresende
> http://twitter.com/lresende1975
> http://lresende.blogspot.com/
>
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> So we just set out a policy for podlings to follow that says something
> like: if you use a project-specific announce@ list, anything you send to it
> must also be copied to announce@apache.org, and vice-versa.
>
> This is how I expect all announce lists to be used.
>
>
Is there a way to automate what you just said ? Assuming the same
restrictions to send announcements applies to both announce@ and
project-announce@, then anything sent to project-announce@ gets
automatically copied to announce@apache.org ?
Thoughts ?
--
Luciano Resende
http://people.apache.org/~lresende
http://twitter.com/lresende1975
http://lresende.blogspot.com/
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
On 27 March 2013 17:15, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well, I found that sending a separate e-mail to announce@a.o was
> useful for two reasons:
> - more likely to get bounces; wanted to distinguish those from TLP list
> bounces
> - people sometime reply all
> - announce@a.o requires an ASF address; I use GMail for TLP subscriptions
>
> So there was usually a short lag between the TLP announce and the ASF
> announce
Makes sense.
> I'm concerned that having local announce lists will cause a drop in
>
valid traffic on the ASF announce list.
So we just set out a policy for podlings to follow that says something
like: if you use a project-specific announce@ list, anything you send to it
must also be copied to announce@apache.org, and vice-versa.
This is how I expect all announce lists to be used.
--
NS
Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 27 March 2013 16:48, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 27 March 2013 16:28, Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Do the general announce list lag behind because there are individual lists
>> ?
>>
>
> I see no reason why they would.
Well, I found that sending a separate e-mail to announce@a.o was
useful for two reasons:
- more likely to get bounces; wanted to distinguish those from TLP list bounces
- people sometime reply all
- announce@a.o requires an ASF address; I use GMail for TLP subscriptions
So there was usually a short lag between the TLP announce and the ASF announce.
As mentioned above, ASF announce is stricter about the mail sender,
which might put some off.
There are definitely release announcements that are not copied to the
announce@a.o list already (e.g. Maven plugins aren't usually announced
there)
I'm concerned that having local announce lists will cause a drop in
valid traffic on the ASF announce list.
>
> On 27 March 2013 16:31, Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> The minute that is in the guides, I'm positive that 100% of new
>> podlings proposals will request the list.
>>
>
> This would be a positive outcome, from where I'm standing.
>
>
>> Having said that, today any podling can create a JIRA issue with INFRA
>> to request a new mailing list. Is that not a good solution ?
>
>
> Solution to what problem? As you point out, podlings can already create
> announce@ lists. I just figured that announce@ lists are probably a good
> thing for most projects, so we should mention them.
>
> --
> NS
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
On 27 March 2013 16:28, Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Do the general announce list lag behind because there are individual lists
> ?
>
I see no reason why they would.
On 27 March 2013 16:31, Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The minute that is in the guides, I'm positive that 100% of new
> podlings proposals will request the list.
>
This would be a positive outcome, from where I'm standing.
> Having said that, today any podling can create a JIRA issue with INFRA
> to request a new mailing list. Is that not a good solution ?
Solution to what problem? As you point out, podlings can already create
announce@ lists. I just figured that announce@ lists are probably a good
thing for most projects, so we should mention them.
--
NS
Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 7:45 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> Bertrand, yes, I am not sold on the idea of doing it by default. But
> perhaps sort of advisory, highlighting it as an option, and giving reasons
> why it might be a good idea for some projects?
>
> What would I have to do to add that? If I prepare a patch to the docs,
> would it be CTR or RTC?
>
>
The minute that is in the guides, I'm positive that 100% of new
podlings proposals will request the list.
Having said that, today any podling can create a JIRA issue with INFRA
to request a new mailing list. Is that not a good solution ?
--
Luciano Resende
http://people.apache.org/~lresende
http://twitter.com/lresende1975
http://lresende.blogspot.com/
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> Bertrand, yes, I am not sold on the idea of doing it by default. But
> perhaps sort of advisory, highlighting it as an option, and giving reasons
> why it might be a good idea for some projects?
Yes, sounds good to me if it's just a suggestion.
>
> What would I have to do to add that? If I prepare a patch to the docs,
> would it be CTR or RTC?
If if it's just a suggestion I'd say CTR.
-Bertrand
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
Bertrand, yes, I am not sold on the idea of doing it by default. But
perhaps sort of advisory, highlighting it as an option, and giving reasons
why it might be a good idea for some projects?
What would I have to do to add that? If I prepare a patch to the docs,
would it be CTR or RTC?
On 27 March 2013 08:54, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 2:14 AM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>
> wrote:
> > ...As to whether such lists should be encouraged for new podlings
> (probably by
> > putting a stub in the proposal template alongside the other lists), I
> can't
> > say that I have a strong opinion....
>
> IIUC Noah's proposal goes further and suggests creating an announce@
> list by default for every new podling.
>
> I'm against that - suggesting that podlings create it is fine (as long
> as we indicate that there's announce@a.o. which is in general
> sufficient) but the default setup of a podling should be minimalistic,
> as each podling is different.
>
> -Bertrand
>
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 2:14 AM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
> ...As to whether such lists should be encouraged for new podlings (probably by
> putting a stub in the proposal template alongside the other lists), I can't
> say that I have a strong opinion....
IIUC Noah's proposal goes further and suggests creating an announce@
list by default for every new podling.
I'm against that - suggesting that podlings create it is fine (as long
as we indicate that there's announce@a.o. which is in general
sufficient) but the default setup of a podling should be minimalistic,
as each podling is different.
-Bertrand
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Re: Creating announce@ lists by default
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 4:05 AM, Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org> wrote:
> I am under the impression that having a low-volume, high-signal
> announcement channel is generally beneficial to most projects that try it.
I agree that such lists are useful. I like to subscribe to individual
announce lists for security purposes because aggregate lists like
debian-security-announce generally lag behind upstream. Individual dev lists
and announce@a.o are too high traffic and programming text-based filters is
tricky because conventions like "ANNOUNCE" are not adhered to 100% of the
time.
As to whether such lists should be encouraged for new podlings (probably by
putting a stub in the proposal template alongside the other lists), I can't
say that I have a strong opinion.
Marvin Humphrey
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