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Posted to dev@lenya.apache.org by Torsten Schlabach <ts...@apache.org> on 2005/03/12 19:42:55 UTC
Plugins: Runtime or build time?
Dear all,
should the to be designed plugins / publets be a built-time technology
(such as Cocoon blocks) or a much more dynamic runtime thing?
In other words:
Should I need to re-compile Lenya if I want to introduce an additional
resource type into a publication?
WDYT?
Torsten
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Re: Plugins: Runtime or build time?
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> Torsten Schlabach wrote:
[...]
> implementing some of those would definitely require avalon components,
> thus the discussion. for others, it may not be needed and they could
> indeed be added at runtime.
Exactly. Of course it would be nice to have run-time deployment.
But I've seen discussions on cocoon-dev about that topic, and
I have to admit that I doubt that we can introduce such a concept
in a clean way without moving away from Cocoon concepts.
I could imagine that run-time deployment requires a huge amount
of planning and implementation. This is such a complex concept,
it's very hard to grasp.
I'd prefer to
- use existing and proven concepts
- do things the Cocoon way (otherwise we won't get any support)
>> BTW: Isn't Avalon dead anyway?
>
> yes, but cocoon still uses avalon components, and will for a while
> (although note the current discussion about application-level containers)
Yes. I don't think it makes sense to consider moving away from
Avalon. According to my last discussion with Carsten and Stefano,
the current Cocoon architecture will be supported for a quite long
time.
-- Andreas
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Re: Plugins: Runtime or build time?
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Torsten Schlabach wrote:
> This was my initial idea as well; though the majority seems to have a
> different view! This might be due to the fact that we still lack a
> common understanding of what will potentially be in a plugin. This might
> be due to the fact that we did not yet see any.
thorsten was probably thinking from the forrest pov, which has no java
in it, just sitemaps and xsl.
> I would neither want to re-invent real or not real blocks. But in my
> understanding a plugin is not really an Avalon component.
wasn't it you who came up with:
+--------------------------+----------+
| | Plugin A | <--> Jackrabbit
| +----------+
| | Plugin B | <--> SVN
| +----------+
| | Plugin C | <--> Wiki Resource Type
| +----------+
| | Plugin E | <--> Link Resource Type
| +----------+
| L e n y a C o r e | Plugin F | <--> SVG Editor
| +----------+
| | Plugin G | <--> RSS Feed Includer
| +----------+
| | Plugin H | <--> XDoc site.xml editor
| +----------+
| | Plugin I | <--> CSS Editor
| +----------+
| | Plugin J | <--> (your wildest phantasies)
| +----------+
| | Plugin K | <--> OpenOffice Desktop Int.
+-----------------+--------+----------+
| Template A | |
+-----------------+ |
| Pub AA | Pub AB | Pub C |
+--------------------------+
implementing some of those would definitely require avalon components,
thus the discussion. for others, it may not be needed and they could
indeed be added at runtime.
> BTW: Isn't Avalon dead anyway?
yes, but cocoon still uses avalon components, and will for a while
(although note the current discussion about application-level containers)
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Re: Plugins: Runtime or build time?
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> On Tue, 2005-03-15 at 21:53 +0100, Torsten Schlabach wrote:
[...]
> Further Avalon has no future like you already said. Cocoon
> is developing their own kernel.
Eeehm ... aren't you confusing some things here?
If Cocoon uses its own kernel, that just means that services and
components are created in another way, or did I get this wrong?
I don't think that the whole architecture of Cocoon will change
and that Cocoon-based applications have to be rebuilt from scratch
without a migration path.
If a service is needed by a plug-in, it has to be declared and
instanciated. You won't avoid that, whether it is done with Avalon
or not.
-- Andreas
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Re: Plugins: Runtime or build time?
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 2005-03-15 at 21:53 +0100, Torsten Schlabach wrote:
> > Hmm, if we talk about plugins then IMO they should be plugable on
> > runtime. Only few situation makes it necessary to recompile.
> >
> > ...but generally plugins should work WITHOUT recompile. Should be plug
> > and play. ;-)
> >
> > That will make it possible to "configure" components (plugins) with a
> > running lenya instance.
> >
> > salu2
>
> This was my initial idea as well; though the majority seems to have a
> different view! This might be due to the fact that we still lack a
> common understanding of what will potentially be in a plugin. This might
> be due to the fact that we did not yet see any.
>
I will commit in the next couple of days a forrest plugin. Then you can
see a proof of concept usecase. The last plugin I added to lenya was a
simple sitemap mount which will plug a new plugin into lenya.
> I would neither want to re-invent real or not real blocks. But in my
> understanding a plugin is not really an Avalon component.
>
Yeah, I agree with you. Only some plugin will have their own Avalon
components. Further Avalon has no future like you already said. Cocoon
is developing their own kernel.
> BTW: Isn't Avalon dead anyway?
>
Jupp, the project officially is.
salu2
> Regards,
> Torsten
>
> Thorsten Scherler schrieb:
> > On Sat, 2005-03-12 at 20:54 +0100, Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> >
> >>Torsten Schlabach wrote:
> >>
> >>>Dear all,
> >>>
> >>>should the to be designed plugins / publets be a built-time technology
> >>>(such as Cocoon blocks) or a much more dynamic runtime thing?
> >>>
> >>>In other words:
> >>>
> >>>Should I need to re-compile Lenya if I want to introduce an additional
> >>>resource type into a publication?
> >>>
> >>>WDYT?
> >>
> >>IMO yes (recompile). I'd use the Cocoon/Avalon mechanisms, which require to
> >>patch cocoon.xconf. That needs to be done on compile time.
> >>
> >>We should start with the current Cocoon way to do things. Maybe
> >>we can also switch to dynamic plugin deployment as soon as the
> >>"real blocks" are introduced (BTW, is there a roadmap for this
> >>issue in Cocoon)?
> >>
> >>-- Andreas
> >>
> >
> >
> > Hmm, if we talk about plugins then IMO they should be plugable on
> > runtime. Only few situation makes it necessary to recompile.
> >
> > ...but generally plugins should work WITHOUT recompile. Should be plug
> > and play. ;-)
> >
> > That will make it possible to "configure" components (plugins) with a
> > running lenya instance.
> >
> > salu2
> >
> >
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@lenya.apache.org
> >>For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@lenya.apache.org
> >>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@lenya.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@lenya.apache.org
>
--
thorsten
"Together we stand, divided we fall!"
Hey you (Pink Floyd)
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Re: Plugins: Runtime or build time?
Posted by Torsten Schlabach <ts...@apache.org>.
> Hmm, if we talk about plugins then IMO they should be plugable on
> runtime. Only few situation makes it necessary to recompile.
>
> ...but generally plugins should work WITHOUT recompile. Should be plug
> and play. ;-)
>
> That will make it possible to "configure" components (plugins) with a
> running lenya instance.
>
> salu2
This was my initial idea as well; though the majority seems to have a
different view! This might be due to the fact that we still lack a
common understanding of what will potentially be in a plugin. This might
be due to the fact that we did not yet see any.
I would neither want to re-invent real or not real blocks. But in my
understanding a plugin is not really an Avalon component.
BTW: Isn't Avalon dead anyway?
Regards,
Torsten
Thorsten Scherler schrieb:
> On Sat, 2005-03-12 at 20:54 +0100, Andreas Hartmann wrote:
>
>>Torsten Schlabach wrote:
>>
>>>Dear all,
>>>
>>>should the to be designed plugins / publets be a built-time technology
>>>(such as Cocoon blocks) or a much more dynamic runtime thing?
>>>
>>>In other words:
>>>
>>>Should I need to re-compile Lenya if I want to introduce an additional
>>>resource type into a publication?
>>>
>>>WDYT?
>>
>>IMO yes (recompile). I'd use the Cocoon/Avalon mechanisms, which require to
>>patch cocoon.xconf. That needs to be done on compile time.
>>
>>We should start with the current Cocoon way to do things. Maybe
>>we can also switch to dynamic plugin deployment as soon as the
>>"real blocks" are introduced (BTW, is there a roadmap for this
>>issue in Cocoon)?
>>
>>-- Andreas
>>
>
>
> Hmm, if we talk about plugins then IMO they should be plugable on
> runtime. Only few situation makes it necessary to recompile.
>
> ...but generally plugins should work WITHOUT recompile. Should be plug
> and play. ;-)
>
> That will make it possible to "configure" components (plugins) with a
> running lenya instance.
>
> salu2
>
>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@lenya.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@lenya.apache.org
>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Plugins: Runtime or build time?
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 2005-03-12 at 20:54 +0100, Andreas Hartmann wrote:
> Torsten Schlabach wrote:
> > Dear all,
> >
> > should the to be designed plugins / publets be a built-time technology
> > (such as Cocoon blocks) or a much more dynamic runtime thing?
> >
> > In other words:
> >
> > Should I need to re-compile Lenya if I want to introduce an additional
> > resource type into a publication?
> >
> > WDYT?
>
> IMO yes (recompile). I'd use the Cocoon/Avalon mechanisms, which require to
> patch cocoon.xconf. That needs to be done on compile time.
>
> We should start with the current Cocoon way to do things. Maybe
> we can also switch to dynamic plugin deployment as soon as the
> "real blocks" are introduced (BTW, is there a roadmap for this
> issue in Cocoon)?
>
> -- Andreas
>
Hmm, if we talk about plugins then IMO they should be plugable on
runtime. Only few situation makes it necessary to recompile.
...but generally plugins should work WITHOUT recompile. Should be plug
and play. ;-)
That will make it possible to "configure" components (plugins) with a
running lenya instance.
salu2
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@lenya.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@lenya.apache.org
>
--
thorsten
"Together we stand, divided we fall!"
Hey you (Pink Floyd)
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Re: Plugins: Runtime or build time?
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
J. Wolfgang Kaltz said:
>>> Should I need to re-compile Lenya if I want to introduce an additional
>>> resource type into a publication?
>> IMO yes (recompile). I'd use the Cocoon/Avalon mechanisms, which require
>> to
>> patch cocoon.xconf. That needs to be done on compile time.
>>
>> We should start with the current Cocoon way to do things. Maybe
>> we can also switch to dynamic plugin deployment as soon as the
>> "real blocks" are introduced (BTW, is there a roadmap for this
>> issue in Cocoon)?
>
> +1
> Sounds reasonable, given that (presumably) Lenya plugins will be Avalon
> components. If in the future Cocoon allows for "hot-deploy" of
> components, we should be able to use that feature at that time.
+1
we should not try to reinvent real blocks over here..
--
Gregor J. Rothfuss
COO, Wyona Content Management Solutions http://wyona.com
Apache Lenya http://lenya.apache.org
gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com gregor@apache.org
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Re: Plugins: Runtime or build time?
Posted by "J. Wolfgang Kaltz" <ka...@interactivesystems.info>.
Andreas Hartmann schrieb:
> Torsten Schlabach wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> should the to be designed plugins / publets be a built-time technology
>> (such as Cocoon blocks) or a much more dynamic runtime thing?
>>
>> In other words:
>>
>> Should I need to re-compile Lenya if I want to introduce an additional
>> resource type into a publication?
>>
>> WDYT?
>
>
> IMO yes (recompile). I'd use the Cocoon/Avalon mechanisms, which require to
> patch cocoon.xconf. That needs to be done on compile time.
>
> We should start with the current Cocoon way to do things. Maybe
> we can also switch to dynamic plugin deployment as soon as the
> "real blocks" are introduced (BTW, is there a roadmap for this
> issue in Cocoon)?
+1
Sounds reasonable, given that (presumably) Lenya plugins will be Avalon
components. If in the future Cocoon allows for "hot-deploy" of
components, we should be able to use that feature at that time.
Re: Plugins: Runtime or build time?
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Torsten Schlabach wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> should the to be designed plugins / publets be a built-time technology
> (such as Cocoon blocks) or a much more dynamic runtime thing?
>
> In other words:
>
> Should I need to re-compile Lenya if I want to introduce an additional
> resource type into a publication?
>
> WDYT?
IMO yes (recompile). I'd use the Cocoon/Avalon mechanisms, which require to
patch cocoon.xconf. That needs to be done on compile time.
We should start with the current Cocoon way to do things. Maybe
we can also switch to dynamic plugin deployment as soon as the
"real blocks" are introduced (BTW, is there a roadmap for this
issue in Cocoon)?
-- Andreas
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