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Posted to users@tomcat.apache.org by Sam Newman <sa...@stamplets.com> on 2001/07/03 11:46:41 UTC
List traffic et al
Given the huge amount of traffic this list generates, I can rarely get
involved with the discussions that take place. It occurs to me that there
sems to be three major discussion themes on the list as a whole:
1.) General servlet/jsp development issues and how tomcat affects them
2.) General tomcat configuration issues
3.) Webserver integration issues
I guess as documentation improves (e.g. tomcat book, work by people like
Mike Slinn) points 2&3 will become less of an issue. I'm just wondering if
there is any millage in perhaps splitting the list into 2 or 3 lists?
Personally, I've got no issues with getting tomcat up and running and so
don't care too much about that end of things, however the servlet/jsp
development issues is more interesting to me.
I don't have too strong an opinion on it, its just that I worry I'm missing
some interesting topics because I don't have the time to work though all the
posts....
sam
Re: List traffic et al
Posted by Jim Cheesman <jc...@msl.es>.
At 11:11 AM 06/07/01, you wrote:
>Hi,
> I've been on the list about eight months and I'm not sure
>I agree that splitting it will alleviate the volume problem.
>I'm rather afraid that I would end up subscribed to 2 or 3
>high volume lists rather than one. I imagine that we would
>see a lot of multiple posts across the lists.
>
>Previous suggestions for how the list could be split seem to me to fall into
>three categories
>1) By platform
>2) By competence (i.e. newbie list, advanced user list)
>3) By category of problem
<snip />
I fully agree - the only way I could see to divide this list that makes any
sense would be installation/post-installation - though, again, where would
"tomcat as service" type posts go?
It is a very high volume list, but with a threaded mail reader that can be
dealt with - most (gui-based) readers allow one to order by subject, and
hence delete by subject...
The information I've learnt here has been invaluable, and certainly I find
replying to the odd "newbie" post makes up for the guilty feeling I get for
not contributing more actively to the project ;)
Jim
--
* Jim Cheesman *
Trabajo:
jchees@msl.es - (34)(91) 724 9200 x 2360
Always be on the
lookout for conspicuousness.
Re: List traffic et al
Posted by Dmitri Colebatch <di...@nuix.com.au>.
Jeff,
On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:38, Jeff Kilbride wrote:
> Splitting along platform lines should retain
> a relatively good mix of newbies and experienced developers in each list,
> so I don't see the problem you are pointing out.
correct. I suppose my reply was not so much to your email, more the
discussion in general. thats a very valid point you make.
> A digest version is already available for this list.
sorry - I didn't know. I should RTFM! (o:
cheers
dim
>
> --jeff
>
> > From: Dmitri Colebatch <di...@nuix.com.au>
> > Reply-To: tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org
> > Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:03:14 +1000
> > To: tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org, Jeff Kilbride <je...@kilbride.com>
> > Subject: Re: List traffic et al
> >
> > I think the big problem with splitting the list is that everyone is going
> > to be interested in their own little niche. I for instance learn nothing
> > by answering many questions that I answer, but I do learn things from
> > reading other answers. If the list was split, I would (potentially) have
> > the option to only see the messages that I would learn from. This
> > disadvantages other people on the list. And this is going to occur at
> > all levels. Even relative newbies should be capable of answering some
> > questions that they have just dealt with the day before.
> >
> > If we want to reduce traffic surely a digest is the option. The JBoss
> > list has a _lot_ more traffic than this one, and I am able to receive
> > that in digest mode quite happily.
> >
> > anyway, my 2c
> >
> > cheesr
> > dim
> >
> > On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:45, Jeff Kilbride wrote:
> >> Even if the list is not split into these specific sub-topics, I would
> >> certainly like to see it split along Windows/Unix lines. I use Unix
> >> exclusively and I skip over 99% of the Windows questions, because I
> >> don't have any experience with Tomcat on that platform. I'm sure Windows
> >> users feel the same way about Unix related questions.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> --jeff
> >>
> >>> From: "Hemant Singh" <Si...@Yahoo.com>
> >>> Organization: Supportscape Inc.
> >>> Reply-To: tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org
> >>> Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:39:13 +0530
> >>> To: <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >>> Subject: Re: List traffic et al
> >>>
> >>> HI:
> >>> Heartly agree with yur idea and before this also i keep on getting
> >>> agree with same kind of ideas but i just dont know who is the moderator
> >>> of this group and how this can be acheived.
> >>> Regards
> >>> Hemant
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Milt Epstein" <me...@uiuc.edu>
> >>> To: <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 10:41 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: List traffic et al
> >>>
> >>>> On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Sam Newman wrote:
> >>>>> Given the huge amount of traffic this list generates, I can rarely
> >>>>> get involved with the discussions that take place. It occurs to me
> >>>>> that there sems to be three major discussion themes on the list as a
> >>>>> whole:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1.) General servlet/jsp development issues and how tomcat affects
> >>>>> them 2.) General tomcat configuration issues
> >>>>> 3.) Webserver integration issues
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I guess as documentation improves (e.g. tomcat book, work by people
> >>>>> like Mike Slinn) points 2&3 will become less of an issue. I'm just
> >>>>> wondering if there is any millage in perhaps splitting the list into
> >>>>> 2 or 3 lists? Personally, I've got no issues with getting tomcat up
> >>>>> and running and so don't care too much about that end of things,
> >>>>> however the servlet/jsp development issues is more interesting to
> >>>>> me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't have too strong an opinion on it, its just that I worry I'm
> >>>>> missing some interesting topics because I don't have the time to
> >>>>> work though all the posts....
> >>>>
> >>>> This idea has come up before, and I think it's one of the best for
> >>>> dealing with the high volume on this list (I guess it's one of the two
> >>>> or three highest volume apache lists). I even volunteered to take the
> >>>> lead in doing this. So I sent a note to the list owner explaining the
> >>>> idea. Unfortunately, I never heard anything back. Without the list
> >>>> owner's cooperation/participation (or someone who can modify the
> >>>> apache/jakarta mailing lists), it won't be possible to do this. So,
> >>>> we could do some work on this (i.e. figuring out what separate lists
> >>>> to have), but unless we know that it's going to come to something, it
> >>>> doesn't make sense to do too much work on it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Milt Epstein
> >>>> Research Programmer
> >>>> Software/Systems Development Group
> >>>> Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO)
> >>>> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC)
> >>>> mepstein@uiuc.edu
Re: AW: List traffic et al
Posted by Jeff Kilbride <je...@kilbride.com>.
In a perfect world, yes, I totally agree. However, in the real world, who's
going to enforce the guidelines? (we already have guidelines that few people
pay attention to...) Reposting the guidelines and links to the FAQ and
archive on a regular basis would probably help, and I agree that it should
be done.
Personally, I don't care about the volume on the list. I have a broadband
connection and it only takes me a couple of seconds to download all the
daily messages. However, I think Tomcat is a broad enough subject to warrant
more than just one generic list. I think a couple of focused lists would
help people with non-generic questions. And, as Milt Epstein points out in a
later post, involvement may actually increase on smaller, focused lists.
I don't think the volume on the tomcat-user list will decrease much at all,
even if it is split. However, splitting will allow people with focused
interests beyond getting Tomcat up and running to participate without being
deluged with messages they may not be interested in.
More choices are usually better than less.
--jeff
> From: "Nico Wieland" <wi...@netvertising.ch>
> Reply-To: tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org
> Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 13:17:13 +0200
> To: <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: AW: List traffic et al
>
> i agree 100%. i think a _good_ thing would be to include these guidelines in
> the confirmation message one receives after subscribing to the list. this is
> the way how it's done eg. on sun-managers, they post the guidelines once a
> month. it's the most disciplined list i know.
>
> -nico
>
>> Rather let all of us try to reduce volume(both in size and
>> number), it does
>> not require much effort.
>>
>> Lets just try to follow the following.
>
> [snip]
>
AW: List traffic et al
Posted by Nico Wieland <wi...@netvertising.ch>.
i agree 100%. i think a _good_ thing would be to include these guidelines in the confirmation message one receives after subscribing to the list. this is the way how it's done eg. on sun-managers, they post the guidelines once a month. it's the most disciplined list i know.
-nico
> Rather let all of us try to reduce volume(both in size and
> number), it does
> not require much effort.
>
> Lets just try to follow the following.
[snip]
RE: List traffic et al
Posted by Saurabh Shukla <sa...@cysphere.com>.
I TOTALLY agree with this, deviding will not be helpful.
Rather let all of us try to reduce volume(both in size and number), it does
not require much effort.
Lets just try to follow the following.
- Please go through the archives and docs before posting a question. The
members should also refrain from answering questions which are there in the
docs, please refer the docs would be
the best reply.
- Do not post messages in non text format such as HTML, Doc or RTF.
- Do not post attachments to the list (such as vCards, ms-tnef etc.)
- Use a meaningful subject. A single word like ``Help!'' doesn't help
in understanding the nature of the problem, and may be skipped by a
person who may actually have been able to help you. It also will be helpful
in
ignoring the issues in whcih an individual is not interested.
- Change the subject if you're changing the content of a thread drastically.
- Remove extras when quoting. If the quoted message contained a
standard list trailer or a long signature, do remove it in your
response.
- Give enough information to help your reader to help you if you're
posting about a problem. Statements like, ``My Apache doesn't work''
are useless since they give no description of the problem, no idea
about the methods you tried to identify the problem, and no
information (logs, etc) which could help in diagnosing the problem.
Give enough information (how did you set it up, what did you do to
test it, what was the exact output, what did the logs contain, what
versions of software/hardware were you using, etc) to enable remote
diagnostics.
- Research your facts before you post solutions to the list. If
you're not sure of the solution to a problem, either do not post, or
first make sure of all the steps and then post. If you cannot make
sure, state very clearly in the message that you're not sure and that
the user is trying your solution at his/her own risk. No solution is
preferable to a wrong solution, which may cause immense damage.
For more info please read.
http://lists.linux-india.org/lists/linux-india-help/guidelines.txt
Shuklix
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Robson [mailto:andrewdrobson@netscapeonline.co.uk]
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 2:42 PM
To: tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org
Subject: Re: List traffic et al
Hi,
I've been on the list about eight months and I'm not sure
I agree that splitting it will alleviate the volume problem.
I'm rather afraid that I would end up subscribed to 2 or 3
high volume lists rather than one. I imagine that we would
see a lot of multiple posts across the lists.
Previous suggestions for how the list could be split seem to me to fall into
three categories
1) By platform
2) By competence (i.e. newbie list, advanced user list)
3) By category of problem
Splitting the list on basis of platform strikes me as little perverse
for a java based technology. However I recognise there are
substantive issues because different platform = different web server.
And I guess it would mean no more 'out of environment space'
and 'how do i run tomcat as a service' posts but I already manage to filter
most of these out anyway. My main concern would be that I'd be effectively
cutting off a valuable section of the tomcat community. Whose to say
the person capable and willing to solve my problem isn't running NT?
And conversly why should i only post solutions to people who happen
to be running the same OS as me?
Problem with dividing on competence is that it is not clear how attractive
a newbie list would be. Would people subscribe to a list made up of
people who by definition are unlikely to know the answer to your question?
Also aren't we trying to foster a strong community of tomcat/servlet
developers. We would hardly be doing that by cutting newbies off
from the 'experts'. After all what is going to happen? Newbies will post
to their list, wait , not get an answer and repost to the advanced users
list. Not a very encouraging introduction to tomcat.
Dividing by category of problem seems to me the suggestion with the
most merit. However here again I'm not convinced. I just think it would be
incredibly difficult to get the right categories. Problems by their nature
tend to cut across such neat boundaries. And half the time you don't
know what category your problem fits into; that's why you have a problem.
Suppose I'm trying to set up SSL. Potentially this is going to fall into
all three of the categories that Sam has suggested. So again I think
we are going to get multiple redundant posts and I think we completly
cloud the issue of where to look for help.
So what is to be done. It seems to me that good documentation projects
(such as the tomcat book at sourceforge) offer the best hope for cutting
the volume on this list. I know there is a big problem people posting
problems which have been dealt with many, many times (sometimes
in the same day!). I just don't know what you do about it other than
regular reminders to check the archives before posting. And it is fairly
clear that doesn't work.
Last point: This list has saved my bacon a couple of times in the last
eight months. As irritating as the high volume can be I think it is
still very valuable in its current form.
andrew
On Fri, 06 Jul 2001, you wrote:
> I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that I have to wade through all
> these messages "for the good of the list". As I said, I have no experience
> with Tomcat on Windows, so I'm not interested in Windows specific issues
nor
> can I help to solve them. Splitting along platform lines should retain a
> relatively good mix of newbies and experienced developers in each list, so
I
> don't see the problem you are pointing out.
>
> In any event, even if the list is split on basic vs. advanced topics,
> advanced users who wanted to help the community could subscribe to all
> lists. I don't think it's necessarily "bad" to want to subscribe only to
the
> lists you feel you can learn from. I've been lurking and posting for about
9
> months now and it seems that the same basic group of people answer a
> majority of the questions. I used to answer a lot more than I do now, but
> I'll admit that I get pretty frustrated answering the same questions over
> and over when I know the answers can be easily found in the archive. Is it
> selfish or bad of me to skip over questions I used to answer, or should
more
> responsibility be placed on the person asking the question? (rhetorical,
> because there's no way to control whether or not people actually search
the
> archives before posting...)
>
> A digest version is already available for this list.
>
> --jeff
>
> > From: Dmitri Colebatch <di...@nuix.com.au>
> > Reply-To: tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org
> > Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:03:14 +1000
> > To: tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org, Jeff Kilbride <je...@kilbride.com>
> > Subject: Re: List traffic et al
> >
> > I think the big problem with splitting the list is that everyone is
going to
> > be interested in their own little niche. I for instance learn nothing
by
> > answering many questions that I answer, but I do learn things from
reading
> > other answers. If the list was split, I would (potentially) have the
option
> > to only see the messages that I would learn from. This disadvantages
other
> > people on the list. And this is going to occur at all levels. Even
relative
> > newbies should be capable of answering some questions that they have
just
> > dealt with the day before.
> >
> > If we want to reduce traffic surely a digest is the option. The JBoss
list
> > has a _lot_ more traffic than this one, and I am able to receive that in
> > digest mode quite happily.
> >
> > anyway, my 2c
> >
> > cheesr
> > dim
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:45, Jeff Kilbride wrote:
> >> Even if the list is not split into these specific sub-topics, I would
> >> certainly like to see it split along Windows/Unix lines. I use Unix
> >> exclusively and I skip over 99% of the Windows questions, because I
don't
> >> have any experience with Tomcat on that platform. I'm sure Windows
users
> >> feel the same way about Unix related questions.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> --jeff
> >>
> >>> From: "Hemant Singh" <Si...@Yahoo.com>
> >>> Organization: Supportscape Inc.
> >>> Reply-To: tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org
> >>> Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:39:13 +0530
> >>> To: <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >>> Subject: Re: List traffic et al
> >>>
> >>> HI:
> >>> Heartly agree with yur idea and before this also i keep on getting
agree
> >>> with same kind of ideas but i just dont know who is the moderator of
this
> >>> group and how this can be acheived.
> >>> Regards
> >>> Hemant
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Milt Epstein" <me...@uiuc.edu>
> >>> To: <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 10:41 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: List traffic et al
> >>>
> >>>> On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Sam Newman wrote:
> >>>>> Given the huge amount of traffic this list generates, I can rarely
> >>>>> get involved with the discussions that take place. It occurs to me
> >>>>> that there sems to be three major discussion themes on the list as a
> >>>>> whole:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1.) General servlet/jsp development issues and how tomcat affects
them
> >>>>> 2.) General tomcat configuration issues
> >>>>> 3.) Webserver integration issues
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I guess as documentation improves (e.g. tomcat book, work by people
> >>>>> like Mike Slinn) points 2&3 will become less of an issue. I'm just
> >>>>> wondering if there is any millage in perhaps splitting the list into
> >>>>> 2 or 3 lists? Personally, I've got no issues with getting tomcat up
> >>>>> and running and so don't care too much about that end of things,
> >>>>> however the servlet/jsp development issues is more interesting to
> >>>>> me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't have too strong an opinion on it, its just that I worry I'm
> >>>>> missing some interesting topics because I don't have the time to
> >>>>> work though all the posts....
> >>>>
> >>>> This idea has come up before, and I think it's one of the best for
> >>>> dealing with the high volume on this list (I guess it's one of the
two
> >>>> or three highest volume apache lists). I even volunteered to take
the
> >>>> lead in doing this. So I sent a note to the list owner explaining
the
> >>>> idea. Unfortunately, I never heard anything back. Without the list
> >>>> owner's cooperation/participation (or someone who can modify the
> >>>> apache/jakarta mailing lists), it won't be possible to do this. So,
> >>>> we could do some work on this (i.e. figuring out what separate lists
> >>>> to have), but unless we know that it's going to come to something, it
> >>>> doesn't make sense to do too much work on it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Milt Epstein
> >>>> Research Programmer
> >>>> Software/Systems Development Group
> >>>> Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO)
> >>>> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC)
> >>>> mepstein@uiuc.edu
> >
--
Re: List traffic et al
Posted by Andrew Robson <an...@netscapeonline.co.uk>.
Hi,
I've been on the list about eight months and I'm not sure
I agree that splitting it will alleviate the volume problem.
I'm rather afraid that I would end up subscribed to 2 or 3
high volume lists rather than one. I imagine that we would
see a lot of multiple posts across the lists.
Previous suggestions for how the list could be split seem to me to fall into
three categories
1) By platform
2) By competence (i.e. newbie list, advanced user list)
3) By category of problem
Splitting the list on basis of platform strikes me as little perverse
for a java based technology. However I recognise there are
substantive issues because different platform = different web server.
And I guess it would mean no more 'out of environment space'
and 'how do i run tomcat as a service' posts but I already manage to filter
most of these out anyway. My main concern would be that I'd be effectively
cutting off a valuable section of the tomcat community. Whose to say
the person capable and willing to solve my problem isn't running NT?
And conversly why should i only post solutions to people who happen
to be running the same OS as me?
Problem with dividing on competence is that it is not clear how attractive
a newbie list would be. Would people subscribe to a list made up of
people who by definition are unlikely to know the answer to your question?
Also aren't we trying to foster a strong community of tomcat/servlet
developers. We would hardly be doing that by cutting newbies off
from the 'experts'. After all what is going to happen? Newbies will post
to their list, wait , not get an answer and repost to the advanced users
list. Not a very encouraging introduction to tomcat.
Dividing by category of problem seems to me the suggestion with the
most merit. However here again I'm not convinced. I just think it would be
incredibly difficult to get the right categories. Problems by their nature
tend to cut across such neat boundaries. And half the time you don't
know what category your problem fits into; that's why you have a problem.
Suppose I'm trying to set up SSL. Potentially this is going to fall into
all three of the categories that Sam has suggested. So again I think
we are going to get multiple redundant posts and I think we completly
cloud the issue of where to look for help.
So what is to be done. It seems to me that good documentation projects
(such as the tomcat book at sourceforge) offer the best hope for cutting
the volume on this list. I know there is a big problem people posting
problems which have been dealt with many, many times (sometimes
in the same day!). I just don't know what you do about it other than
regular reminders to check the archives before posting. And it is fairly
clear that doesn't work.
Last point: This list has saved my bacon a couple of times in the last
eight months. As irritating as the high volume can be I think it is
still very valuable in its current form.
andrew
On Fri, 06 Jul 2001, you wrote:
> I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that I have to wade through all
> these messages "for the good of the list". As I said, I have no experience
> with Tomcat on Windows, so I'm not interested in Windows specific issues nor
> can I help to solve them. Splitting along platform lines should retain a
> relatively good mix of newbies and experienced developers in each list, so I
> don't see the problem you are pointing out.
>
> In any event, even if the list is split on basic vs. advanced topics,
> advanced users who wanted to help the community could subscribe to all
> lists. I don't think it's necessarily "bad" to want to subscribe only to the
> lists you feel you can learn from. I've been lurking and posting for about 9
> months now and it seems that the same basic group of people answer a
> majority of the questions. I used to answer a lot more than I do now, but
> I'll admit that I get pretty frustrated answering the same questions over
> and over when I know the answers can be easily found in the archive. Is it
> selfish or bad of me to skip over questions I used to answer, or should more
> responsibility be placed on the person asking the question? (rhetorical,
> because there's no way to control whether or not people actually search the
> archives before posting...)
>
> A digest version is already available for this list.
>
> --jeff
>
> > From: Dmitri Colebatch <di...@nuix.com.au>
> > Reply-To: tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org
> > Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:03:14 +1000
> > To: tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org, Jeff Kilbride <je...@kilbride.com>
> > Subject: Re: List traffic et al
> >
> > I think the big problem with splitting the list is that everyone is going to
> > be interested in their own little niche. I for instance learn nothing by
> > answering many questions that I answer, but I do learn things from reading
> > other answers. If the list was split, I would (potentially) have the option
> > to only see the messages that I would learn from. This disadvantages other
> > people on the list. And this is going to occur at all levels. Even relative
> > newbies should be capable of answering some questions that they have just
> > dealt with the day before.
> >
> > If we want to reduce traffic surely a digest is the option. The JBoss list
> > has a _lot_ more traffic than this one, and I am able to receive that in
> > digest mode quite happily.
> >
> > anyway, my 2c
> >
> > cheesr
> > dim
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:45, Jeff Kilbride wrote:
> >> Even if the list is not split into these specific sub-topics, I would
> >> certainly like to see it split along Windows/Unix lines. I use Unix
> >> exclusively and I skip over 99% of the Windows questions, because I don't
> >> have any experience with Tomcat on that platform. I'm sure Windows users
> >> feel the same way about Unix related questions.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> --jeff
> >>
> >>> From: "Hemant Singh" <Si...@Yahoo.com>
> >>> Organization: Supportscape Inc.
> >>> Reply-To: tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org
> >>> Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:39:13 +0530
> >>> To: <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >>> Subject: Re: List traffic et al
> >>>
> >>> HI:
> >>> Heartly agree with yur idea and before this also i keep on getting agree
> >>> with same kind of ideas but i just dont know who is the moderator of this
> >>> group and how this can be acheived.
> >>> Regards
> >>> Hemant
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Milt Epstein" <me...@uiuc.edu>
> >>> To: <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 10:41 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: List traffic et al
> >>>
> >>>> On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Sam Newman wrote:
> >>>>> Given the huge amount of traffic this list generates, I can rarely
> >>>>> get involved with the discussions that take place. It occurs to me
> >>>>> that there sems to be three major discussion themes on the list as a
> >>>>> whole:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1.) General servlet/jsp development issues and how tomcat affects them
> >>>>> 2.) General tomcat configuration issues
> >>>>> 3.) Webserver integration issues
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I guess as documentation improves (e.g. tomcat book, work by people
> >>>>> like Mike Slinn) points 2&3 will become less of an issue. I'm just
> >>>>> wondering if there is any millage in perhaps splitting the list into
> >>>>> 2 or 3 lists? Personally, I've got no issues with getting tomcat up
> >>>>> and running and so don't care too much about that end of things,
> >>>>> however the servlet/jsp development issues is more interesting to
> >>>>> me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I don't have too strong an opinion on it, its just that I worry I'm
> >>>>> missing some interesting topics because I don't have the time to
> >>>>> work though all the posts....
> >>>>
> >>>> This idea has come up before, and I think it's one of the best for
> >>>> dealing with the high volume on this list (I guess it's one of the two
> >>>> or three highest volume apache lists). I even volunteered to take the
> >>>> lead in doing this. So I sent a note to the list owner explaining the
> >>>> idea. Unfortunately, I never heard anything back. Without the list
> >>>> owner's cooperation/participation (or someone who can modify the
> >>>> apache/jakarta mailing lists), it won't be possible to do this. So,
> >>>> we could do some work on this (i.e. figuring out what separate lists
> >>>> to have), but unless we know that it's going to come to something, it
> >>>> doesn't make sense to do too much work on it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Milt Epstein
> >>>> Research Programmer
> >>>> Software/Systems Development Group
> >>>> Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO)
> >>>> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC)
> >>>> mepstein@uiuc.edu
> >
--
Re: List traffic et al
Posted by Jeff Kilbride <je...@kilbride.com>.
I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that I have to wade through all
these messages "for the good of the list". As I said, I have no experience
with Tomcat on Windows, so I'm not interested in Windows specific issues nor
can I help to solve them. Splitting along platform lines should retain a
relatively good mix of newbies and experienced developers in each list, so I
don't see the problem you are pointing out.
In any event, even if the list is split on basic vs. advanced topics,
advanced users who wanted to help the community could subscribe to all
lists. I don't think it's necessarily "bad" to want to subscribe only to the
lists you feel you can learn from. I've been lurking and posting for about 9
months now and it seems that the same basic group of people answer a
majority of the questions. I used to answer a lot more than I do now, but
I'll admit that I get pretty frustrated answering the same questions over
and over when I know the answers can be easily found in the archive. Is it
selfish or bad of me to skip over questions I used to answer, or should more
responsibility be placed on the person asking the question? (rhetorical,
because there's no way to control whether or not people actually search the
archives before posting...)
A digest version is already available for this list.
--jeff
> From: Dmitri Colebatch <di...@nuix.com.au>
> Reply-To: tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org
> Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:03:14 +1000
> To: tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org, Jeff Kilbride <je...@kilbride.com>
> Subject: Re: List traffic et al
>
> I think the big problem with splitting the list is that everyone is going to
> be interested in their own little niche. I for instance learn nothing by
> answering many questions that I answer, but I do learn things from reading
> other answers. If the list was split, I would (potentially) have the option
> to only see the messages that I would learn from. This disadvantages other
> people on the list. And this is going to occur at all levels. Even relative
> newbies should be capable of answering some questions that they have just
> dealt with the day before.
>
> If we want to reduce traffic surely a digest is the option. The JBoss list
> has a _lot_ more traffic than this one, and I am able to receive that in
> digest mode quite happily.
>
> anyway, my 2c
>
> cheesr
> dim
>
>
> On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:45, Jeff Kilbride wrote:
>> Even if the list is not split into these specific sub-topics, I would
>> certainly like to see it split along Windows/Unix lines. I use Unix
>> exclusively and I skip over 99% of the Windows questions, because I don't
>> have any experience with Tomcat on that platform. I'm sure Windows users
>> feel the same way about Unix related questions.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --jeff
>>
>>> From: "Hemant Singh" <Si...@Yahoo.com>
>>> Organization: Supportscape Inc.
>>> Reply-To: tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org
>>> Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:39:13 +0530
>>> To: <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>> Subject: Re: List traffic et al
>>>
>>> HI:
>>> Heartly agree with yur idea and before this also i keep on getting agree
>>> with same kind of ideas but i just dont know who is the moderator of this
>>> group and how this can be acheived.
>>> Regards
>>> Hemant
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Milt Epstein" <me...@uiuc.edu>
>>> To: <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 10:41 PM
>>> Subject: Re: List traffic et al
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Sam Newman wrote:
>>>>> Given the huge amount of traffic this list generates, I can rarely
>>>>> get involved with the discussions that take place. It occurs to me
>>>>> that there sems to be three major discussion themes on the list as a
>>>>> whole:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1.) General servlet/jsp development issues and how tomcat affects them
>>>>> 2.) General tomcat configuration issues
>>>>> 3.) Webserver integration issues
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess as documentation improves (e.g. tomcat book, work by people
>>>>> like Mike Slinn) points 2&3 will become less of an issue. I'm just
>>>>> wondering if there is any millage in perhaps splitting the list into
>>>>> 2 or 3 lists? Personally, I've got no issues with getting tomcat up
>>>>> and running and so don't care too much about that end of things,
>>>>> however the servlet/jsp development issues is more interesting to
>>>>> me.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't have too strong an opinion on it, its just that I worry I'm
>>>>> missing some interesting topics because I don't have the time to
>>>>> work though all the posts....
>>>>
>>>> This idea has come up before, and I think it's one of the best for
>>>> dealing with the high volume on this list (I guess it's one of the two
>>>> or three highest volume apache lists). I even volunteered to take the
>>>> lead in doing this. So I sent a note to the list owner explaining the
>>>> idea. Unfortunately, I never heard anything back. Without the list
>>>> owner's cooperation/participation (or someone who can modify the
>>>> apache/jakarta mailing lists), it won't be possible to do this. So,
>>>> we could do some work on this (i.e. figuring out what separate lists
>>>> to have), but unless we know that it's going to come to something, it
>>>> doesn't make sense to do too much work on it.
>>>>
>>>> Milt Epstein
>>>> Research Programmer
>>>> Software/Systems Development Group
>>>> Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO)
>>>> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC)
>>>> mepstein@uiuc.edu
>
Re: List traffic et al
Posted by Milt Epstein <me...@uiuc.edu>.
On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, Dmitri Colebatch wrote:
> I think the big problem with splitting the list is that everyone is
> going to be interested in their own little niche. I for instance
> learn nothing by answering many questions that I answer, but I do
> learn things from reading other answers. If the list was split, I
> would (potentially) have the option to only see the messages that I
> would learn from. This disadvantages other people on the list. And
> this is going to occur at all levels. Even relative newbies should
> be capable of answering some questions that they have just dealt
> with the day before.
I can see what you're saying, but I see a couple of problems with
this. First, it's like forcing people to do something that they
would/could/should have the option of doing themselves anyway. You're
making it sound like people should have to read everything so that
they wouldn't miss anything where they might be able to help. Well,
of course, if there was a split, people who wanted to do this could
still do this. And you shouldn't force people to do this.
More practically, I don't think it's the most effective way to achieve
your goal (more participation from people who have the answers). With
a single high volume list, I believe people will tend to skim/skip
more things, and perhaps even drop off the list totally. With a lower
volume list, they might very well participate in the way you're
suggesting -- albeit only on a subset of posts. But greater
participation on a subset of posts may work out better than less
participation on all the posts. For example, I see myself skipping a
ton of posts because I just don't have the time; if the volume were
smaller, and the scope more relevant to my interests/expertise, I
would definitely participate more. (Granted that coming up with a
split that will facilitate this is not trivial. But it may be worth
it.)
Basically, you want to make it easy and worthwhile for the more
experienced people to participate, and I think a split -- a good split
-- will do this.
> If we want to reduce traffic surely a digest is the option. The
> JBoss list has a _lot_ more traffic than this one, and I am able to
> receive that in digest mode quite happily.
As has been pointed out, there is already a digest option. And this
must be a personal thing, because I would absolutely detest getting
such a high volume list as a digest and couldn't imagine reading it
that way.
> On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:45, Jeff Kilbride wrote:
> > Even if the list is not split into these specific sub-topics, I would
> > certainly like to see it split along Windows/Unix lines. I use Unix
> > exclusively and I skip over 99% of the Windows questions, because I don't
> > have any experience with Tomcat on that platform. I'm sure Windows users
> > feel the same way about Unix related questions.
[ ... ]
Milt Epstein
Research Programmer
Software/Systems Development Group
Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO)
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC)
mepstein@uiuc.edu
Re: List traffic et al
Posted by Dmitri Colebatch <di...@nuix.com.au>.
I think the big problem with splitting the list is that everyone is going to
be interested in their own little niche. I for instance learn nothing by
answering many questions that I answer, but I do learn things from reading
other answers. If the list was split, I would (potentially) have the option
to only see the messages that I would learn from. This disadvantages other
people on the list. And this is going to occur at all levels. Even relative
newbies should be capable of answering some questions that they have just
dealt with the day before.
If we want to reduce traffic surely a digest is the option. The JBoss list
has a _lot_ more traffic than this one, and I am able to receive that in
digest mode quite happily.
anyway, my 2c
cheesr
dim
On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:45, Jeff Kilbride wrote:
> Even if the list is not split into these specific sub-topics, I would
> certainly like to see it split along Windows/Unix lines. I use Unix
> exclusively and I skip over 99% of the Windows questions, because I don't
> have any experience with Tomcat on that platform. I'm sure Windows users
> feel the same way about Unix related questions.
>
> Thanks,
> --jeff
>
> > From: "Hemant Singh" <Si...@Yahoo.com>
> > Organization: Supportscape Inc.
> > Reply-To: tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org
> > Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:39:13 +0530
> > To: <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > Subject: Re: List traffic et al
> >
> > HI:
> > Heartly agree with yur idea and before this also i keep on getting agree
> > with same kind of ideas but i just dont know who is the moderator of this
> > group and how this can be acheived.
> > Regards
> > Hemant
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Milt Epstein" <me...@uiuc.edu>
> > To: <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 10:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: List traffic et al
> >
> >> On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Sam Newman wrote:
> >>> Given the huge amount of traffic this list generates, I can rarely
> >>> get involved with the discussions that take place. It occurs to me
> >>> that there sems to be three major discussion themes on the list as a
> >>> whole:
> >>>
> >>> 1.) General servlet/jsp development issues and how tomcat affects them
> >>> 2.) General tomcat configuration issues
> >>> 3.) Webserver integration issues
> >>>
> >>> I guess as documentation improves (e.g. tomcat book, work by people
> >>> like Mike Slinn) points 2&3 will become less of an issue. I'm just
> >>> wondering if there is any millage in perhaps splitting the list into
> >>> 2 or 3 lists? Personally, I've got no issues with getting tomcat up
> >>> and running and so don't care too much about that end of things,
> >>> however the servlet/jsp development issues is more interesting to
> >>> me.
> >>>
> >>> I don't have too strong an opinion on it, its just that I worry I'm
> >>> missing some interesting topics because I don't have the time to
> >>> work though all the posts....
> >>
> >> This idea has come up before, and I think it's one of the best for
> >> dealing with the high volume on this list (I guess it's one of the two
> >> or three highest volume apache lists). I even volunteered to take the
> >> lead in doing this. So I sent a note to the list owner explaining the
> >> idea. Unfortunately, I never heard anything back. Without the list
> >> owner's cooperation/participation (or someone who can modify the
> >> apache/jakarta mailing lists), it won't be possible to do this. So,
> >> we could do some work on this (i.e. figuring out what separate lists
> >> to have), but unless we know that it's going to come to something, it
> >> doesn't make sense to do too much work on it.
> >>
> >> Milt Epstein
> >> Research Programmer
> >> Software/Systems Development Group
> >> Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO)
> >> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC)
> >> mepstein@uiuc.edu
Re: List traffic et al
Posted by Jeff Kilbride <je...@kilbride.com>.
Even if the list is not split into these specific sub-topics, I would
certainly like to see it split along Windows/Unix lines. I use Unix
exclusively and I skip over 99% of the Windows questions, because I don't
have any experience with Tomcat on that platform. I'm sure Windows users
feel the same way about Unix related questions.
Thanks,
--jeff
> From: "Hemant Singh" <Si...@Yahoo.com>
> Organization: Supportscape Inc.
> Reply-To: tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org
> Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:39:13 +0530
> To: <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: List traffic et al
>
> HI:
> Heartly agree with yur idea and before this also i keep on getting agree
> with same kind of ideas but i just dont know who is the moderator of this
> group and how this can be acheived.
> Regards
> Hemant
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Milt Epstein" <me...@uiuc.edu>
> To: <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 10:41 PM
> Subject: Re: List traffic et al
>
>
>> On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Sam Newman wrote:
>>
>>> Given the huge amount of traffic this list generates, I can rarely
>>> get involved with the discussions that take place. It occurs to me
>>> that there sems to be three major discussion themes on the list as a
>>> whole:
>>>
>>> 1.) General servlet/jsp development issues and how tomcat affects them
>>> 2.) General tomcat configuration issues
>>> 3.) Webserver integration issues
>>>
>>> I guess as documentation improves (e.g. tomcat book, work by people
>>> like Mike Slinn) points 2&3 will become less of an issue. I'm just
>>> wondering if there is any millage in perhaps splitting the list into
>>> 2 or 3 lists? Personally, I've got no issues with getting tomcat up
>>> and running and so don't care too much about that end of things,
>>> however the servlet/jsp development issues is more interesting to
>>> me.
>>>
>>> I don't have too strong an opinion on it, its just that I worry I'm
>>> missing some interesting topics because I don't have the time to
>>> work though all the posts....
>>
>> This idea has come up before, and I think it's one of the best for
>> dealing with the high volume on this list (I guess it's one of the two
>> or three highest volume apache lists). I even volunteered to take the
>> lead in doing this. So I sent a note to the list owner explaining the
>> idea. Unfortunately, I never heard anything back. Without the list
>> owner's cooperation/participation (or someone who can modify the
>> apache/jakarta mailing lists), it won't be possible to do this. So,
>> we could do some work on this (i.e. figuring out what separate lists
>> to have), but unless we know that it's going to come to something, it
>> doesn't make sense to do too much work on it.
>>
>> Milt Epstein
>> Research Programmer
>> Software/Systems Development Group
>> Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO)
>> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC)
>> mepstein@uiuc.edu
>
Re: List traffic et al
Posted by Hemant Singh <Si...@Yahoo.com>.
HI:
Heartly agree with yur idea and before this also i keep on getting agree
with same kind of ideas but i just dont know who is the moderator of this
group and how this can be acheived.
Regards
Hemant
----- Original Message -----
From: "Milt Epstein" <me...@uiuc.edu>
To: <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: List traffic et al
> On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Sam Newman wrote:
>
> > Given the huge amount of traffic this list generates, I can rarely
> > get involved with the discussions that take place. It occurs to me
> > that there sems to be three major discussion themes on the list as a
> > whole:
> >
> > 1.) General servlet/jsp development issues and how tomcat affects them
> > 2.) General tomcat configuration issues
> > 3.) Webserver integration issues
> >
> > I guess as documentation improves (e.g. tomcat book, work by people
> > like Mike Slinn) points 2&3 will become less of an issue. I'm just
> > wondering if there is any millage in perhaps splitting the list into
> > 2 or 3 lists? Personally, I've got no issues with getting tomcat up
> > and running and so don't care too much about that end of things,
> > however the servlet/jsp development issues is more interesting to
> > me.
> >
> > I don't have too strong an opinion on it, its just that I worry I'm
> > missing some interesting topics because I don't have the time to
> > work though all the posts....
>
> This idea has come up before, and I think it's one of the best for
> dealing with the high volume on this list (I guess it's one of the two
> or three highest volume apache lists). I even volunteered to take the
> lead in doing this. So I sent a note to the list owner explaining the
> idea. Unfortunately, I never heard anything back. Without the list
> owner's cooperation/participation (or someone who can modify the
> apache/jakarta mailing lists), it won't be possible to do this. So,
> we could do some work on this (i.e. figuring out what separate lists
> to have), but unless we know that it's going to come to something, it
> doesn't make sense to do too much work on it.
>
> Milt Epstein
> Research Programmer
> Software/Systems Development Group
> Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO)
> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC)
> mepstein@uiuc.edu
Re: List traffic et al
Posted by Sam Newman <sa...@stamplets.com>.
Milt wrote:
> This idea has come up before, and I think it's one of the best for
> dealing with the high volume on this list (I guess it's one of the two
> or three highest volume apache lists). I even volunteered to take the
> lead in doing this. So I sent a note to the list owner explaining the
> idea. Unfortunately, I never heard anything back. Without the list
> owner's cooperation/participation (or someone who can modify the
> apache/jakarta mailing lists), it won't be possible to do this. So,
> we could do some work on this (i.e. figuring out what separate lists
> to have), but unless we know that it's going to come to something, it
> doesn't make sense to do too much work on it.
perhaps if we came up with a general consensus as to how to split the lists,
we might get more of a response? As a first draft proposal, what about the
following division:
tomcat-config - for deploying webapps (web.xml, war files), working with
server.xml, running on various platforms etc
tomcat-integration - for working with other webservers, EJB containers,
databases etc.
Please feel free to comment....
sam
Re: List traffic et al
Posted by Milt Epstein <me...@uiuc.edu>.
On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Sam Newman wrote:
> Given the huge amount of traffic this list generates, I can rarely
> get involved with the discussions that take place. It occurs to me
> that there sems to be three major discussion themes on the list as a
> whole:
>
> 1.) General servlet/jsp development issues and how tomcat affects them
> 2.) General tomcat configuration issues
> 3.) Webserver integration issues
>
> I guess as documentation improves (e.g. tomcat book, work by people
> like Mike Slinn) points 2&3 will become less of an issue. I'm just
> wondering if there is any millage in perhaps splitting the list into
> 2 or 3 lists? Personally, I've got no issues with getting tomcat up
> and running and so don't care too much about that end of things,
> however the servlet/jsp development issues is more interesting to
> me.
>
> I don't have too strong an opinion on it, its just that I worry I'm
> missing some interesting topics because I don't have the time to
> work though all the posts....
This idea has come up before, and I think it's one of the best for
dealing with the high volume on this list (I guess it's one of the two
or three highest volume apache lists). I even volunteered to take the
lead in doing this. So I sent a note to the list owner explaining the
idea. Unfortunately, I never heard anything back. Without the list
owner's cooperation/participation (or someone who can modify the
apache/jakarta mailing lists), it won't be possible to do this. So,
we could do some work on this (i.e. figuring out what separate lists
to have), but unless we know that it's going to come to something, it
doesn't make sense to do too much work on it.
Milt Epstein
Research Programmer
Software/Systems Development Group
Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO)
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC)
mepstein@uiuc.edu