Graduation resolution does not allow for committers != PMC

[sebb <se...@gmail.com>]

There have been a couple of graduations recently where (I think) the
podling expected to be able to specify the initial list of committers
as different from the PMC. In at least one case the podling did not
realise that the names on the board resolution comprise the initial
PMC.

I think there are two issues here:
- clarify that the board resolution names really are the whole PMC and
nothing but the PMC (!)
The resolution template itself likely cannot be changed, but there
must be descriptions of the process somewhere that can be improved.

- consider whether it is necessary to allow creation of a TLP with
additional initial committers not on the PMC.
If so, what is the process?
If not, probably a good idea to ensure it is clearly stated how the
PMC can add the additional committers once the TLP resources have been
created by Infra.

Thoughts?

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Re: Graduation resolution does not allow for committers != PMC

[Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>]

As a practical matter the tlp migration scripts seed the
committer group from the list in asf-authorization for svn.
The PMC is taken directly from the resolution, but if there
is no corresponding group in svn (say UCB applies to
the project) then the PMC chair has to seed the committer
group themselves.


It is remarkably easy for a chair to ensure that everyone on the pmc
is in fact in the unix group for the project:

% list_committee.pl foo | modify_unix_group.pl foo --add -

the code will filter out any redundancies automatically.

On Friday, April 4, 2014 7:38 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
 
Hi,
>
>On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 12:29 PM, Edward J. Yoon <ed...@apache.org> wrote:
>> ...When consider TLP graduation, all
>> committers should be PPMC members?...
>
>At the foundation level (i.e. in the board resolution that establishes
>the project) we don't care about committers, it's only PMC members
>which are relevant.
>
>If a podling wishes to have only a subset of its committers as PPMC
>members that's possible, and as I wrote earlier in this thread the
>committers are not mentioned in the graduation resolution but they can
>be re-established by the new PMC right after graduation.
>
>IOW, "PMC member" is a foundation-level status whereas it's only the
>PMC who's responsible for the "committer" status.
>
>-Bertrand
>
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Re: Graduation resolution does not allow for committers != PMC

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

Hi,

On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 12:29 PM, Edward J. Yoon <ed...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...When consider TLP graduation, all
> committers should be PPMC members?...

At the foundation level (i.e. in the board resolution that establishes
the project) we don't care about committers, it's only PMC members
which are relevant.

If a podling wishes to have only a subset of its committers as PPMC
members that's possible, and as I wrote earlier in this thread the
committers are not mentioned in the graduation resolution but they can
be re-established by the new PMC right after graduation.

IOW, "PMC member" is a foundation-level status whereas it's only the
PMC who's responsible for the "committer" status.

-Bertrand

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Re: Graduation resolution does not allow for committers != PMC

["Edward J. Yoon" <ed...@apache.org>]

I always was curious about if podling has both a group of PPMC members
and a group of committers. When consider TLP graduation, all
committers should be PPMC members?

On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 6:59 PM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There have been a couple of graduations recently where (I think) the
> podling expected to be able to specify the initial list of committers
> as different from the PMC. In at least one case the podling did not
> realise that the names on the board resolution comprise the initial
> PMC.
>
> I think there are two issues here:
> - clarify that the board resolution names really are the whole PMC and
> nothing but the PMC (!)
> The resolution template itself likely cannot be changed, but there
> must be descriptions of the process somewhere that can be improved.
>
> - consider whether it is necessary to allow creation of a TLP with
> additional initial committers not on the PMC.
> If so, what is the process?
> If not, probably a good idea to ensure it is clearly stated how the
> PMC can add the additional committers once the TLP resources have been
> created by Infra.
>
> Thoughts?
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>



-- 
Edward J. Yoon (@eddieyoon)
Chief Executive Officer
DataSayer, Inc.

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Re: Graduation resolution does not allow for committers != PMC

[Chip Childers <ch...@apache.org>]

On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 6:12 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> Although I have a hard time understanding why people who deserve to
> accompany a podling on graduation do not deserve being on its PMC, the
> solution is simple: the newly established PMC just needs to
> re-establish those people as committers, and it can do this as soon as
> the graudation resolution is accepted by the board.
>
> How they do it is up to them, lazy consensus ("we're going to re-add
> those people as committers unless someone objects" on their private
> list would work for example.

Why does there even need to be an explicit action?  Committers are
committers for the project, and this is really a community level
issue.  A project moves from the incubator to being a TLP, but it's
community is the same.  Only TLP creation and PMC membership require
any true formality, largely to create the new "home" for the
community.

I think that we would find that the reality for most graduation
projects is that they either (1) don't even consider this an issue, or
(2) make any committer changes they want to make before graduation.
The overwhelming majority seem to do (1)... at least that's what I've
observed.

I'd agree to Sebb's idea of perhaps updating documentation to clarify
that the resolution is the PMC (the wording in the resolution itself
talks about the "members of the project", which can be a bit confusing
and / or off-putting).

-chip

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Re: Graduation resolution does not allow for committers != PMC

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

Hi,

On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 11:59 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...consider whether it is necessary to allow creation of a TLP with
> additional initial committers not on the PMC.
> If so, what is the process?...

Although I have a hard time understanding why people who deserve to
accompany a podling on graduation do not deserve being on its PMC, the
solution is simple: the newly established PMC just needs to
re-establish those people as committers, and it can do this as soon as
the graudation resolution is accepted by the board.

How they do it is up to them, lazy consensus ("we're going to re-add
those people as committers unless someone objects" on their private
list would work for example.

As far as the board resolution is concerned, only PMC members are
relevant, at the foundation level we don't care who the committers
are.

-Bertrand

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