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Posted to dev@netbeans.apache.org by Eirik Bakke <eb...@ultorg.com> on 2022/06/24 09:46:17 UTC
FlatLAF tab style discussion
Hi, dev.
There's a discussion on https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/3115 about changing the default "look" of window system tabs in NetBeans. See the before/after screenshots there.
With FlatLAF becoming the default look & feel since NetBeans 13, the tab components in the window system (over editors and sidebars) no longe resemble tabs, and are somewhat difficult to see. The proposed PR fixes this, by introducing a new look for the tabs that shows the selected tab as a proper tab while leaving a simplified flattened look for unselected tabs. Other kinds of tabs, e.g. in dialog boxes, or nested tabs in the Output pane, retain the more flat "blue underline" style.
1) Would people like this new style to become the default on NetBeans? (See screenshots in the PR above.)
2) Should there be an option to switch back to the old style?
-- Eirik
Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion
Posted by Thomas Kellerer <sh...@gmx.net>.
FlatLaf uses their own themes https://www.formdev.com/flatlaf/themes/
Themes offer more flexibility then customization through properties files: https://www.formdev.com/flatlaf/properties-files/
Christian Lenz schrieb am 24.06.2022 um 14:13:
> Hey all,
>
> I prefer to have an option for this because not everyone likes it I Guess. If we will have no Option then I prefer it as default. On the other Hand what Thomas said, to Change the LaF of your choice, the theming Options is that was we are Looking for. I dunno whether it is JSON or property files but this is already there in swing and for this we have already a ticket: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/NETBEANS-3746 and DevCharly already started a PR: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/NETBEANS-3746
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Chris
>
> Von: Thomas Kellerer
> Gesendet: Freitag, 24. Juni 2022 13:54
> An: dev@netbeans.apache.org
> Betreff: Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion
>
> Eirik Bakke schrieb am 24.06.2022 um 11:46:
>> Hi, dev.
>>
>> There's a discussion on https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/3115 about changing the default "look" of window system tabs in NetBeans. See the before/after screenshots there.
>>
>> With FlatLAF becoming the default look & feel since NetBeans 13, the tab components in the window system (over editors and sidebars) no longe resemble tabs, and are somewhat difficult to see. The proposed PR fixes this, by introducing a new look for the tabs that shows the selected tab as a proper tab while leaving a simplified flattened look for unselected tabs. Other kinds of tabs, e.g. in dialog boxes, or nested tabs in the Output pane, retain the more flat "blue underline" style.
>>
>> 1) Would people like this new style to become the default on NetBeans? (See screenshots in the PR above.)
>> 2) Should there be an option to switch back to the old style?
>
> I still prefer the Windows Look & Feel, so I don't really care, but regarding the FlatLaf integration:
>
> Maybe NetBeans could support customizing FlatLaf through external .properties file, so people can customize it to their preferences.
>
> Users for my own (non-NetBeans, pure Swing) application were asking about customization options for FlatLaf. So I integrated that.
>
> It's really not a huge effort, this can either be done through .properties file (very easy to integrate) or through .theme files, which requires using a different LnF class during initialization.
>
>
> Maybe that's an option for NetBeans as well.
>
>
> Just my 0.02€
> Thomas
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AW: FlatLAF tab style discussion
Posted by Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>.
Hey all,
I prefer to have an option for this because not everyone likes it I Guess. If we will have no Option then I prefer it as default. On the other Hand what Thomas said, to Change the LaF of your choice, the theming Options is that was we are Looking for. I dunno whether it is JSON or property files but this is already there in swing and for this we have already a ticket: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/NETBEANS-3746 and DevCharly already started a PR: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/NETBEANS-3746
Cheers
Chris
Von: Thomas Kellerer
Gesendet: Freitag, 24. Juni 2022 13:54
An: dev@netbeans.apache.org
Betreff: Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion
Eirik Bakke schrieb am 24.06.2022 um 11:46:
> Hi, dev.
>
> There's a discussion on https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/3115 about changing the default "look" of window system tabs in NetBeans. See the before/after screenshots there.
>
> With FlatLAF becoming the default look & feel since NetBeans 13, the tab components in the window system (over editors and sidebars) no longe resemble tabs, and are somewhat difficult to see. The proposed PR fixes this, by introducing a new look for the tabs that shows the selected tab as a proper tab while leaving a simplified flattened look for unselected tabs. Other kinds of tabs, e.g. in dialog boxes, or nested tabs in the Output pane, retain the more flat "blue underline" style.
>
> 1) Would people like this new style to become the default on NetBeans? (See screenshots in the PR above.)
> 2) Should there be an option to switch back to the old style?
I still prefer the Windows Look & Feel, so I don't really care, but regarding the FlatLaf integration:
Maybe NetBeans could support customizing FlatLaf through external .properties file, so people can customize it to their preferences.
Users for my own (non-NetBeans, pure Swing) application were asking about customization options for FlatLaf. So I integrated that.
It's really not a huge effort, this can either be done through .properties file (very easy to integrate) or through .theme files, which requires using a different LnF class during initialization.
Maybe that's an option for NetBeans as well.
Just my 0.02€
Thomas
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Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion
Posted by Thomas Kellerer <sh...@gmx.net>.
Eirik Bakke schrieb am 24.06.2022 um 11:46:
> Hi, dev.
>
> There's a discussion on https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/3115 about changing the default "look" of window system tabs in NetBeans. See the before/after screenshots there.
>
> With FlatLAF becoming the default look & feel since NetBeans 13, the tab components in the window system (over editors and sidebars) no longe resemble tabs, and are somewhat difficult to see. The proposed PR fixes this, by introducing a new look for the tabs that shows the selected tab as a proper tab while leaving a simplified flattened look for unselected tabs. Other kinds of tabs, e.g. in dialog boxes, or nested tabs in the Output pane, retain the more flat "blue underline" style.
>
> 1) Would people like this new style to become the default on NetBeans? (See screenshots in the PR above.)
> 2) Should there be an option to switch back to the old style?
I still prefer the Windows Look & Feel, so I don't really care, but regarding the FlatLaf integration:
Maybe NetBeans could support customizing FlatLaf through external .properties file, so people can customize it to their preferences.
Users for my own (non-NetBeans, pure Swing) application were asking about customization options for FlatLaf. So I integrated that.
It's really not a huge effort, this can either be done through .properties file (very easy to integrate) or through .theme files, which requires using a different LnF class during initialization.
Maybe that's an option for NetBeans as well.
Just my 0.02€
Thomas
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RE: FlatLAF tab style discussion
Posted by Eirik Bakke <eb...@ultorg.com>.
> I just don't think that changing the design of the tabs (particularly making them not flat) is the way to fix it.
Well, one question to consider is: Why are the window system tabs flat in the first place? They always looked like proper tabs until NetBeans 13. Is the "flat" design really better?
One source of confusion may be due to the fact that "FlatLAF" has "flat" in its name. But a lot of the advantages we get from FlatLAF--it's high level of polish, customizability, cross-platform yet native-looking feel--are unrelated to the look of the window system tabs in particular.
Another point: I did a survey of other IDE-like apps that have tabs in their window systems (see screenshots in https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/3115 ) , and the current NetBeans style resembles only one of them, namely IntelliJ. Which makes sense, since FlatLAF was originally meant to mimic the IntelliJ theme. But now that NetBeans uses FlatLAF as its default, it is less desirable, from a branding perspective, to try to copy the visual style of a "competing" IDE.
--- Eirik
-----Original Message-----
From: Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 11:12 AM
To: dev@netbeans.apache.org
Subject: Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion
On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 at 10:46, Eirik Bakke <eb...@ultorg.com> wrote:
> With FlatLAF becoming the default look & feel since NetBeans 13, the tab components in the window system (over editors and sidebars) no longe resemble tabs, and are somewhat difficult to see. The proposed PR fixes this, by introducing a new look for the tabs that shows the selected tab as a proper tab while leaving a simplified flattened look for unselected tabs.
To be clear, considering my -0, I totally agree with the visibility point. This needs fixing, and I think the tabbed pane UI in FlatLaf has an accessibility issue here anyway. I just don't think that changing the design of the tabs (particularly making them not flat) is the way to fix it. I think the colour palette needs more contrast / accenting. You can see this in some of the other software screenshots you shared there. You can also see it in menus, option categories, etc.
I would also say I do think the PR should probably be merged. I was hoping Karl might have some thoughts on fixing some of the issues in a way that more aligns with other areas of FlatLaf, but we can always tweak further afterwards ...
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 at 20:01, Michael Bien <mb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I believe the problem with the tabs is more than the gradients/colors.
Well, all I can say is that with other software I use that has similar
tab design (inc. disconnected flat tabs) it is the better use of
colour contrast and focus/accent colour that means I don't notice this
issue in them. I do in NetBeans.
> My question is: shouldn't this be changed upstream? Because this sounds
> like an issue which might be potentially changed upstream. To avoid
> having to revert this we should check If there is no desire to provide
> the option or change it upstream,
Yes, this was my hope. The tab displayer UI is here, but they are
based on the upstream look.* Not to mention, Karl is also a NetBeans
committer.
* interesting to contrast with running with
-J-DNB.WinSys.WinSys.TabControl.SimpleTabs.Enabled=true
> good defaults are important. So we should try to set it to the most
> popular option so that only few have to change the default (I hope
> enabled is the most popular option ;)).
+1 to enabled by default (despite some reservation on the fix).
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 25 Jun 2022 at 15:34, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 at 20:01, Michael Bien <mb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I believe the problem with the tabs is more than the gradients/colors.
> > The active tab looks like it is not attached to the editor due to the
> > separator line. It doesn't look as if it would be on the same "3d
> > level", which lets me intuitively second guess if the active tab is
> > actually the active tab. (I am not saying the colors should not be
> > changed too)
> >
> > But since even intelliJ moved that line up, everything indicates that
> > more share the same opinion / have a problem with it.
>
> Incidentally, I got the urge to see what is possible within the theme
> files of the existing code.
OK, I've put up a PR and full screenshots for discussion to show
possibility of (mostly) just tweaking the colour scheme to address the
issues, rather than discussing abstractedly -
https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/4286
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion
Posted by Jean-Marc Borer <jm...@gmail.com>.
As mentioned in the https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/3115, +1 for me.
Additional question to eirikbakke <https://github.com/eirikbakke> as
FaltLaf has advanced customization options that may be more adequate for
some of our NB platform based applications, when where can we call
FlatLaf.registerCustomDefaultsSource( "com.myapp.themes" );
FlatLightLaf.setup();
during Netbeans lifecycle setup? Is it early enough or too late in an
module Installer class? Will it work to override some FlatLaF values or
will all be replaced?
Cheers,
JM
On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 2:34 PM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 at 20:01, Michael Bien <mb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I believe the problem with the tabs is more than the gradients/colors.
> > The active tab looks like it is not attached to the editor due to the
> > separator line. It doesn't look as if it would be on the same "3d
> > level", which lets me intuitively second guess if the active tab is
> > actually the active tab. (I am not saying the colors should not be
> > changed too)
> >
> > But since even intelliJ moved that line up, everything indicates that
> > more share the same opinion / have a problem with it.
>
> Incidentally, I got the urge to see what is possible within the theme
> files of the existing code. Seems we can address most of that already
> with a few property changes? -
> https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/3115#issuecomment-1166298013
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
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>
>
>
>
Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 at 20:01, Michael Bien <mb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I believe the problem with the tabs is more than the gradients/colors.
> The active tab looks like it is not attached to the editor due to the
> separator line. It doesn't look as if it would be on the same "3d
> level", which lets me intuitively second guess if the active tab is
> actually the active tab. (I am not saying the colors should not be
> changed too)
>
> But since even intelliJ moved that line up, everything indicates that
> more share the same opinion / have a problem with it.
Incidentally, I got the urge to see what is possible within the theme
files of the existing code. Seems we can address most of that already
with a few property changes? -
https://github.com/apache/netbeans/pull/3115#issuecomment-1166298013
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion
Posted by Michael Bien <mb...@gmail.com>.
On 24.06.22 21:11, Eirik Bakke wrote:
>> My question is: shouldn't this be changed upstream?
> The window system tabs are not actually part of the upstream FlatLAF library--they are in the FlatLAF customization module inside the NetBeans codebase. So it's easy to change.
awesome - thats a good sign. But there are also non-editor tabs which
would be inconsistent as soon we merge, which might be relevant for
platform apps (but they would have a way out with the option).
At least we wouldn't have to revert it if its changed upstream, which is
good.
-mbien
>
> -- Eirik
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Bien <mb...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 2:59 PM
> To: dev@netbeans.apache.org; Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
> Subject: Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion
>
> On 24.06.22 17:11, Neil C Smith wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 at 10:46, Eirik Bakke <eb...@ultorg.com> wrote:
>>> With FlatLAF becoming the default look & feel since NetBeans 13, the tab components in the window system (over editors and sidebars) no longe resemble tabs, and are somewhat difficult to see. The proposed PR fixes this, by introducing a new look for the tabs that shows the selected tab as a proper tab while leaving a simplified flattened look for unselected tabs.
>> To be clear, considering my -0, I totally agree with the visibility
>> point. This needs fixing, and I think the tabbed pane UI in FlatLaf
>> has an accessibility issue here anyway. I just don't think that
>> changing the design of the tabs (particularly making them not flat) is
>> the way to fix it. I think the colour palette needs more contrast /
>> accenting. You can see this in some of the other software screenshots
>> you shared there. You can also see it in menus, option categories,
>> etc.
> I believe the problem with the tabs is more than the gradients/colors.
> The active tab looks like it is not attached to the editor due to the separator line. It doesn't look as if it would be on the same "3d level", which lets me intuitively second guess if the active tab is actually the active tab. (I am not saying the colors should not be changed too)
>
> But since even intelliJ moved that line up, everything indicates that more share the same opinion / have a problem with it.
>
> My question is: shouldn't this be changed upstream? Because this sounds like an issue which might be potentially changed upstream. To avoid having to revert this we should check If there is no desire to provide the option or change it upstream, if there isn't - we should merge IMO (I really like it as i already said on the PR).
>
> regarding on or off:
>
> good defaults are important. So we should try to set it to the most popular option so that only few have to change the default (I hope enabled is the most popular option ;)).
>
> best regards,
>
> michael
>
>
>> I would also say I do think the PR should probably be merged. I was
>> hoping Karl might have some thoughts on fixing some of the issues in a
>> way that more aligns with other areas of FlatLaf, but we can always
>> tweak further afterwards ...
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Neil
>>
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
>
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>
>
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RE: FlatLAF tab style discussion
Posted by Eirik Bakke <eb...@ultorg.com>.
> My question is: shouldn't this be changed upstream?
The window system tabs are not actually part of the upstream FlatLAF library--they are in the FlatLAF customization module inside the NetBeans codebase. So it's easy to change.
-- Eirik
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Bien <mb...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2022 2:59 PM
To: dev@netbeans.apache.org; Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
Subject: Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion
On 24.06.22 17:11, Neil C Smith wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 at 10:46, Eirik Bakke <eb...@ultorg.com> wrote:
>> With FlatLAF becoming the default look & feel since NetBeans 13, the tab components in the window system (over editors and sidebars) no longe resemble tabs, and are somewhat difficult to see. The proposed PR fixes this, by introducing a new look for the tabs that shows the selected tab as a proper tab while leaving a simplified flattened look for unselected tabs.
> To be clear, considering my -0, I totally agree with the visibility
> point. This needs fixing, and I think the tabbed pane UI in FlatLaf
> has an accessibility issue here anyway. I just don't think that
> changing the design of the tabs (particularly making them not flat) is
> the way to fix it. I think the colour palette needs more contrast /
> accenting. You can see this in some of the other software screenshots
> you shared there. You can also see it in menus, option categories,
> etc.
I believe the problem with the tabs is more than the gradients/colors.
The active tab looks like it is not attached to the editor due to the separator line. It doesn't look as if it would be on the same "3d level", which lets me intuitively second guess if the active tab is actually the active tab. (I am not saying the colors should not be changed too)
But since even intelliJ moved that line up, everything indicates that more share the same opinion / have a problem with it.
My question is: shouldn't this be changed upstream? Because this sounds like an issue which might be potentially changed upstream. To avoid having to revert this we should check If there is no desire to provide the option or change it upstream, if there isn't - we should merge IMO (I really like it as i already said on the PR).
regarding on or off:
good defaults are important. So we should try to set it to the most popular option so that only few have to change the default (I hope enabled is the most popular option ;)).
best regards,
michael
>
> I would also say I do think the PR should probably be merged. I was
> hoping Karl might have some thoughts on fixing some of the issues in a
> way that more aligns with other areas of FlatLaf, but we can always
> tweak further afterwards ...
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
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Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion
Posted by Michael Bien <mb...@gmail.com>.
On 24.06.22 17:11, Neil C Smith wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 at 10:46, Eirik Bakke <eb...@ultorg.com> wrote:
>> With FlatLAF becoming the default look & feel since NetBeans 13, the tab components in the window system (over editors and sidebars) no longe resemble tabs, and are somewhat difficult to see. The proposed PR fixes this, by introducing a new look for the tabs that shows the selected tab as a proper tab while leaving a simplified flattened look for unselected tabs.
> To be clear, considering my -0, I totally agree with the visibility
> point. This needs fixing, and I think the tabbed pane UI in FlatLaf
> has an accessibility issue here anyway. I just don't think that
> changing the design of the tabs (particularly making them not flat) is
> the way to fix it. I think the colour palette needs more contrast /
> accenting. You can see this in some of the other software screenshots
> you shared there. You can also see it in menus, option categories,
> etc.
I believe the problem with the tabs is more than the gradients/colors.
The active tab looks like it is not attached to the editor due to the
separator line. It doesn't look as if it would be on the same "3d
level", which lets me intuitively second guess if the active tab is
actually the active tab. (I am not saying the colors should not be
changed too)
But since even intelliJ moved that line up, everything indicates that
more share the same opinion / have a problem with it.
My question is: shouldn't this be changed upstream? Because this sounds
like an issue which might be potentially changed upstream. To avoid
having to revert this we should check If there is no desire to provide
the option or change it upstream, if there isn't - we should merge IMO
(I really like it as i already said on the PR).
regarding on or off:
good defaults are important. So we should try to set it to the most
popular option so that only few have to change the default (I hope
enabled is the most popular option ;)).
best regards,
michael
>
> I would also say I do think the PR should probably be merged. I was
> hoping Karl might have some thoughts on fixing some of the issues in a
> way that more aligns with other areas of FlatLaf, but we can always
> tweak further afterwards ...
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
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>
>
>
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Re: FlatLAF tab style discussion
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 at 10:46, Eirik Bakke <eb...@ultorg.com> wrote:
> With FlatLAF becoming the default look & feel since NetBeans 13, the tab components in the window system (over editors and sidebars) no longe resemble tabs, and are somewhat difficult to see. The proposed PR fixes this, by introducing a new look for the tabs that shows the selected tab as a proper tab while leaving a simplified flattened look for unselected tabs.
To be clear, considering my -0, I totally agree with the visibility
point. This needs fixing, and I think the tabbed pane UI in FlatLaf
has an accessibility issue here anyway. I just don't think that
changing the design of the tabs (particularly making them not flat) is
the way to fix it. I think the colour palette needs more contrast /
accenting. You can see this in some of the other software screenshots
you shared there. You can also see it in menus, option categories,
etc.
I would also say I do think the PR should probably be merged. I was
hoping Karl might have some thoughts on fixing some of the issues in a
way that more aligns with other areas of FlatLaf, but we can always
tweak further afterwards ...
Best wishes,
Neil
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