RE: Cocoon Wiki (was: Re: [CLEANCOON] Let's clean Cocoon and modu larize it . . .)

[Piroumian Konstantin <KP...@protek.com>]

> From: Ulrich Mayring [mailto:ulim@denic.de] 
> Piroumian Konstantin wrote:
> 
> > Your are wrong saying that Cocoon does not server its own 
> website. Cocoon's
> > site is generated using Cocoon's CLI as well as the Forrest site
> > (http://xml.apache.org/forrest or the recent version:
> > http://www.krysalis.org/forrest). The reason that the web 
> site is not served
> > as a web application is the infrastructure that has no 
> running servlet
> > engine on the web server.
> 
> As I said, there are probably good reasons. But from a 
> marketing point 
> of view it is still a show-stopper.

That depends on how Cocoon is positioned. It was agreed a while ago that
Cocoon is excellent for publishing tasks, but there are some difficulties
for using it for web applications (see discussions about the Flow and
Continuations). The new flow layour is aimed at solving that difficulties. 

> 
> > Cocoon can be used to implement a Wiki application, isn't 
> it? The other
> > thing is that nobody had did it yet.
> 
> And people wonder: why not? Why are there Wiki 
> implementations in JSP, 
> but none for Cocoon? If it were easy to do, surely someone could slap 
> something together right now.

Agree. Using Cocoon is not as easy as pure JSPs and servlets.

> 
> > For lighter tasks a lighter tool is the best, but when you 
> have a complex
> > web application/site with customizable/personalizable 
> content and layout,
> > where you will need multimedia output of the same content 
> etc. then you'll
> > hardly be happy to do it using JSP even with its XML and 
> Tiles like taglibs.
> 
> So, Cocoon is positioned as being only for large and complex websites?

It's my personal opinion. I am currently developing some demo applications
and I've choosed Struts for it, cause it better suits my needs. But for the
real system I'd prefer some XML-enabled/based framework like Cocoon.

Konstantin

> 
> Ulrich
> 
> -- 
> Ulrich Mayring
> DENIC eG, Systementwicklung
> 
> 
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Re: Cocoon Wiki (was: Re: [CLEANCOON] Let's clean Cocoon and modu larize it . . .)

[Ulrich Mayring <ul...@denic.de>]

Leigh Dodds wrote:
>>Using Cocoon is not as easy as pure JSPs and servlets.
> 
> 
> Depends on your perspective.
> 
> I think the core pipeline model in Cocoon is really simple to 
> understand. It's got a clear separation of functionality/responsibility.

IMHO it's simple to understand the concept, but hard to use the actual 
software. Look at any Sitemap.

> It's getting across the simplicity at the heart of Cocoon that's 
> the road to success -- clear examples and documentation are 
> the way to do this.

You do have a point. The mere process of writing quality and quantity 
docs will make it apparent whether Cocoon is really very simple or 
actually very complex.

> Another one is to avoid making the sitemap any more complex than 
> it needs to be.

I think the Sitemap is complex by design: it rules everything, so any 
new feature you put into Cocoon has a fair chance of requiring a change 
to the Sitemap.

You also mentioned that for most developers straightforward XSLT 
processing and database stuff via esql will be the two main features of 
Cocoon and they are fairly straightforward to use. You are right, but 
these features were even easier to use in Cocoon1. Cocoon2 made simple 
things harder and complex things possible.

Ulrich

-- 
Ulrich Mayring
DENIC eG, Systementwicklung


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RE: Cocoon Wiki (was: Re: [CLEANCOON] Let's clean Cocoon and modu larize it . . .)

[Leigh Dodds <ld...@ingenta.com>]

>Using Cocoon is not as easy as pure JSPs and servlets.

Depends on your perspective.

I think the core pipeline model in Cocoon is really simple to 
understand. It's got a clear separation of functionality/responsibility.

If you're a Java developer then maybe JSP/Servlets are easier 
because that's what you're familiar with. 

However if you're interested in processing XML documents, 
using XSLT, then the core model is pretty easy to get to grips 
with.

Ditto if you're primarily a database developer and want to publish 
some XML data. Learning the ESQL tag library isn't that hard, 
as most of the code is hidden -- there's just the SQL to deal with.

It's getting across the simplicity at the heart of Cocoon that's 
the road to success -- clear examples and documentation are 
the way to do this.

Another one is to avoid making the sitemap any more complex than 
it needs to be.

Cheers,

L.

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