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Posted to dev@couchdb.apache.org by Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> on 2020/03/12 14:32:02 UTC
[DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Hi All,
The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask questions.
I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
participation. I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
questions and get involved in the development discussion.
I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
fulfill our Apache requirements.
I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
but I think it would definitely open up our community.
Cheers
Garren
[1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
[2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/
Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Posted by "Reddy B." <re...@live.fr>.
Many thanks, I wasn't aware of this website, the experience is indeed much more pleasant!
For the rest what you are saying makes sense to me, maybe the key lies in the notification system of whatever system is choosen. If it can be reliable enough it can work even for core developers.
Maybe the missed emails are a matter of SMTP servers rejecting the email because of false positives with spam detection. This is very frequent especially with gmail. Configuring an external SMTP server like SendGrid or AmazonSES could be all that is needed to make notification emails reliable.
________________________________
De : Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>
Envoyé : dimanche 15 mars 2020 19:02
À : dev@couchdb.apache.org <de...@couchdb.apache.org>
Objet : Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
On 2020-03-15 11:02 a.m., Reddy B. wrote:
>However, if you are an outsider looking for context that was discussed 2 years ago, even Couchdb's official archive website<https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-dev/> does not have a search function. There may be a way but this is clearly not as user friendly than something like discourse.
That archive has been retired, though it's still online for some time
yet. Try this one for a much better experience, with search:
https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@couchdb.apache.org
> So far I have never subscribed to email notifications on these platforms, I just visit the website and have no problem with that. Moreover something like Discourse even groups the topics that were discussed "since you last visited". Just sharing my experience since many people may be similar.
It's harder for those of us who actively maintain the software as part
of our daily routine to switch from a "push" to a 'pull" model for these
things, but it is absolutely easier for people only looking to ask a few
questions and get answers - that's for sure.
That said, I rely entirely on email from GitHub to stay abreast of our
code changes and pull requests. I think I'd be sunk if I had to use the
activity feed on GitHub's website.
-Joan "social distancing works" Touzet
Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
On 2020-03-15 11:02 a.m., Reddy B. wrote:
>However, if you are an outsider looking for context that was discussed 2 years ago, even Couchdb's official archive website<https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-dev/> does not have a search function. There may be a way but this is clearly not as user friendly than something like discourse.
That archive has been retired, though it's still online for some time
yet. Try this one for a much better experience, with search:
https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@couchdb.apache.org
> So far I have never subscribed to email notifications on these platforms, I just visit the website and have no problem with that. Moreover something like Discourse even groups the topics that were discussed "since you last visited". Just sharing my experience since many people may be similar.
It's harder for those of us who actively maintain the software as part
of our daily routine to switch from a "push" to a 'pull" model for these
things, but it is absolutely easier for people only looking to ask a few
questions and get answers - that's for sure.
That said, I rely entirely on email from GitHub to stay abreast of our
code changes and pull requests. I think I'd be sunk if I had to use the
activity feed on GitHub's website.
-Joan "social distancing works" Touzet
RE: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Posted by "Reddy B." <re...@live.fr>.
To add my two cents, I personally engage much more on communities using discourse or some modern Forum engines, than on those relying on mailing lists.
As far as browsing archives is concerned, I personally always find it painful to browse email archives to find relevant information. Maybe if you have been part of the community from day 1, and you have been storing all emails locally, then launching a search in your email client is convenient (but even then, the quality of your results will depend on the search implementation of your email client + what about if you're not using your regular computer). However, if you are an outsider looking for context that was discussed 2 years ago, even Couchdb's official archive website<https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/couchdb-dev/> does not have a search function. There may be a way but this is clearly not as user friendly than something like discourse.
I would also note that beyond archive scenarios, one major benefit of tools like Discord that people often fail to verbalize is that they capture social dynamics around a topic/issue. You can see how many people viewed a topic, liked a post etc... It is so valuable to know that the piece of information you have found helped the original poster, or was "blessed" with a like by a senior member of the community.
This also helps the archiving scenario since you have very helpful activity feeds, which also allow you to stay on top of your preferred communities quickly. If questions are redundant you can link to the previous topic easily or even merge topics. Referencing former discussions on emails is much more difficult and impractical. My observation is that people just get tired of answering the same question and ignore new posters or start replying with one-liners.
So far I have never subscribed to email notifications on these platforms, I just visit the website and have no problem with that. Moreover something like Discourse even groups the topics that were discussed "since you last visited". Just sharing my experience since many people may be similar.
________________________________
De : Dave Cottlehuber <dc...@skunkwerks.at>
Envoyé : dimanche 15 mars 2020 14:36
À : dev@couchdb.apache.org <de...@couchdb.apache.org>
Objet : Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:
> apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can
> specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think
>
> e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions
> <https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions>
interesting.
> I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
> might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.
>
> > On 13 Mar 2020, at 00:41, Arturo GARCIA-VARGAS <ar...@ficuslabs.com> wrote:
> >
> > I'm sure Discourse is a fantastic thing (never used it!) but for us dinosaurs that still use Email it would be a bad move.
> >
> > Plain text rulez
I concur.
My 2c is that I have become a unix greybeard in habit, if not physical
attributes. I feel that neither slack nor discourse facilitate being
involved in multiple communities concurrently, they are actively hostile to
it. I spent significantly less time in discourse/slack vs irc/email
communities.
The rust discourse, and others that I follow, truncate outbound emails,
and also limit the numbers of outbound messages, effectively making it
not really email, and forcing you to browse the site. This is significantly
slower than churning through a stash of emails to catch up.
That said, user convenience trumps developer satisfaction. If the flock
is moving off mailing lists, then the shepherd should follow.
A+
Dave
Re: moving email lists to GitHub Discussions (Was: [DISCUSS] moving
email lists to Discourse)
Posted by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>.
I’d be willing to give this a go. +1 :)
Best
Jan
—
> On 11. May 2020, at 21:04, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 2020-03-15 9:36, Dave Cottlehuber wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:
>>> apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can
>>> specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think
>>>
>>> e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions
>>> <https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions>
>> interesting.
>>> I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
>>> might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.
>
> Given that we already have email integration with GitHub, this will probably be easier to get through the ASF bureaucracy than something brand new.
>
> I'm willing to take this through Infra if people agree to it. It doesn't look like there are any separate "boards" or tags yet, so the proposal would likely be that discussions there would get emailed onto user@. The hard part will be getting replies to the thread on user@ to go back into the discussion on GH; we might be able to get an "asf-bot" to do this for us.
>
> I also looked at Infra's JIRA database, and no one has put in this request there yet. So, we'd be the first, with all the difficulties that entails.
>
> Can I get an informal "vote" on this approach and go-ahead? Since it's informal, anyone is encouraged to respond.
>
> -Joan "adopt, adapt, improve" Touzet
Re: moving email lists to GitHub Discussions (Was: [DISCUSS] moving
email lists to Discourse)
Posted by Alessio 'Blaster' Biancalana <do...@apache.org>.
It looks to me like adopting github for a centralized workflow that
involves PRs, issues, discussions and all of this stuff.
KISS principle! Also, potential contributors tend to look on discussion
boards and sadly discussion lists are a bit naive :/
So, +1 on that.
Alessio
On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:06 PM Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 2020-03-15 9:36, Dave Cottlehuber wrote:
> > On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:
> >> apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can
> >> specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think
> >>
> >> e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions
> >> <https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions>
> >
> > interesting.
> >
> >> I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
> >> might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.
>
> Given that we already have email integration with GitHub, this will
> probably be easier to get through the ASF bureaucracy than something
> brand new.
>
> I'm willing to take this through Infra if people agree to it. It doesn't
> look like there are any separate "boards" or tags yet, so the proposal
> would likely be that discussions there would get emailed onto user@. The
> hard part will be getting replies to the thread on user@ to go back into
> the discussion on GH; we might be able to get an "asf-bot" to do this
> for us.
>
> I also looked at Infra's JIRA database, and no one has put in this
> request there yet. So, we'd be the first, with all the difficulties that
> entails.
>
> Can I get an informal "vote" on this approach and go-ahead? Since it's
> informal, anyone is encouraged to respond.
>
> -Joan "adopt, adapt, improve" Touzet
>
Re: moving email lists to GitHub Discussions (Was: [DISCUSS] moving
email lists to Discourse)
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
Quick update for those who don't want to read JIRA (you can subscribe to
the issue, by the way - could use more voices...):
Because the request is to put user support discussions there only for
now, we aren't strictly required to have email integration with our
users@ list. That's good!
The bad news is that GitHub Repo Discussions are still in limited beta,
and we need someone at GH to enable that for our repo.
I have asked Infra to reach out to GH to ask about this, but have zero
visibility into progress on that.
If I don't see any progress in a week or two, I'll poke them again.
The _good_ news is that if we felt we wanted to move forward with an
alternative solution - again for user help only, no product decision
making allowed outside of dev@ / something that cc's to dev@ - we could
do that. But let's not be too hasty, GH Repo Discussions looks like the
best match for us and the least long-term maintenance work.
-Joan "less admin == more maintainable" Touzet
On 2020-05-26 10:52, Nick Vatamaniuc wrote:
> +1
>
> Thank you, Joan!
>
> On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 2:50 PM Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Joan, I’m looking forward to Infra feedback.
>>
>> Best
>> Jan
>> —
>>
>>> On 22. May 2020, at 19:31, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> I haven't gotten a lot of feedback on this proposal. (I know a lot of people are marching towards deadlines right now.) I also don't want to take it to users@, unless there's a reality of it happening.
>>>
>>> In the interest of moving this forward, I'm going to open an exploratory issue with Infra to see how much work it'd be to make this happen. Hopefully, we're not the first people to ask.
>>>
>>> We'll still need a vote here, or on users@, before we would actually move activity to GH Discussions, but it won't be the gating factor for a while yet, I bet.
>>>
>>> FYI, per our project guidelines/bylaws, this would be a non-technical decision, allowing for lazy consensus and a lazy majority (3 binding +1s, more binding +1s than binding -1s), with binding votes cast by committers, and no vetos.
>>>
>>> -Joan
>>>
>>> On 2020-05-12 14:41, Joan Touzet wrote:
>>>> On 2020-05-12 5:46 a.m., Ilya Khlopotov wrote:
>>>>> I would be +1 as long as it works and we have options to migrate archive elsewhere if/when we need to.
>>>>> You are proposing to mirror email traffic which means that mail archive would have a complete history and spare the project from total vendor lock in.
>>>>>
>>>> Yup, that'd be a requirement from the ASF's perspective, regardless of technology we select.
>>>> -Joan
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> ILYA
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2020/05/11 19:04:53, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2020-03-15 9:36, Dave Cottlehuber wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:
>>>>>>>> apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can
>>>>>>>> specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions
>>>>>>>> <https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
>>>>>>>> might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given that we already have email integration with GitHub, this will
>>>>>> probably be easier to get through the ASF bureaucracy than something
>>>>>> brand new.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm willing to take this through Infra if people agree to it. It doesn't
>>>>>> look like there are any separate "boards" or tags yet, so the proposal
>>>>>> would likely be that discussions there would get emailed onto user@. The
>>>>>> hard part will be getting replies to the thread on user@ to go back into
>>>>>> the discussion on GH; we might be able to get an "asf-bot" to do this
>>>>>> for us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also looked at Infra's JIRA database, and no one has put in this
>>>>>> request there yet. So, we'd be the first, with all the difficulties that
>>>>>> entails.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can I get an informal "vote" on this approach and go-ahead? Since it's
>>>>>> informal, anyone is encouraged to respond.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Joan "adopt, adapt, improve" Touzet
>>>>>>
>>
Re: moving email lists to GitHub Discussions (Was: [DISCUSS] moving
email lists to Discourse)
Posted by Nick Vatamaniuc <va...@gmail.com>.
+1
Thank you, Joan!
On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 2:50 PM Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Thanks Joan, I’m looking forward to Infra feedback.
>
> Best
> Jan
> —
>
> > On 22. May 2020, at 19:31, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > I haven't gotten a lot of feedback on this proposal. (I know a lot of people are marching towards deadlines right now.) I also don't want to take it to users@, unless there's a reality of it happening.
> >
> > In the interest of moving this forward, I'm going to open an exploratory issue with Infra to see how much work it'd be to make this happen. Hopefully, we're not the first people to ask.
> >
> > We'll still need a vote here, or on users@, before we would actually move activity to GH Discussions, but it won't be the gating factor for a while yet, I bet.
> >
> > FYI, per our project guidelines/bylaws, this would be a non-technical decision, allowing for lazy consensus and a lazy majority (3 binding +1s, more binding +1s than binding -1s), with binding votes cast by committers, and no vetos.
> >
> > -Joan
> >
> > On 2020-05-12 14:41, Joan Touzet wrote:
> >> On 2020-05-12 5:46 a.m., Ilya Khlopotov wrote:
> >>> I would be +1 as long as it works and we have options to migrate archive elsewhere if/when we need to.
> >>> You are proposing to mirror email traffic which means that mail archive would have a complete history and spare the project from total vendor lock in.
> >>>
> >> Yup, that'd be a requirement from the ASF's perspective, regardless of technology we select.
> >> -Joan
> >>> Best regards,
> >>> ILYA
> >>>
> >>> On 2020/05/11 19:04:53, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>> On 2020-03-15 9:36, Dave Cottlehuber wrote:
> >>>>> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:
> >>>>>> apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can
> >>>>>> specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions
> >>>>>> <https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> interesting.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
> >>>>>> might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.
> >>>>
> >>>> Given that we already have email integration with GitHub, this will
> >>>> probably be easier to get through the ASF bureaucracy than something
> >>>> brand new.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm willing to take this through Infra if people agree to it. It doesn't
> >>>> look like there are any separate "boards" or tags yet, so the proposal
> >>>> would likely be that discussions there would get emailed onto user@. The
> >>>> hard part will be getting replies to the thread on user@ to go back into
> >>>> the discussion on GH; we might be able to get an "asf-bot" to do this
> >>>> for us.
> >>>>
> >>>> I also looked at Infra's JIRA database, and no one has put in this
> >>>> request there yet. So, we'd be the first, with all the difficulties that
> >>>> entails.
> >>>>
> >>>> Can I get an informal "vote" on this approach and go-ahead? Since it's
> >>>> informal, anyone is encouraged to respond.
> >>>>
> >>>> -Joan "adopt, adapt, improve" Touzet
> >>>>
>
Re: moving email lists to GitHub Discussions (Was: [DISCUSS] moving
email lists to Discourse)
Posted by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>.
Thanks Joan, I’m looking forward to Infra feedback.
Best
Jan
—
> On 22. May 2020, at 19:31, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> I haven't gotten a lot of feedback on this proposal. (I know a lot of people are marching towards deadlines right now.) I also don't want to take it to users@, unless there's a reality of it happening.
>
> In the interest of moving this forward, I'm going to open an exploratory issue with Infra to see how much work it'd be to make this happen. Hopefully, we're not the first people to ask.
>
> We'll still need a vote here, or on users@, before we would actually move activity to GH Discussions, but it won't be the gating factor for a while yet, I bet.
>
> FYI, per our project guidelines/bylaws, this would be a non-technical decision, allowing for lazy consensus and a lazy majority (3 binding +1s, more binding +1s than binding -1s), with binding votes cast by committers, and no vetos.
>
> -Joan
>
> On 2020-05-12 14:41, Joan Touzet wrote:
>> On 2020-05-12 5:46 a.m., Ilya Khlopotov wrote:
>>> I would be +1 as long as it works and we have options to migrate archive elsewhere if/when we need to.
>>> You are proposing to mirror email traffic which means that mail archive would have a complete history and spare the project from total vendor lock in.
>>>
>> Yup, that'd be a requirement from the ASF's perspective, regardless of technology we select.
>> -Joan
>>> Best regards,
>>> ILYA
>>>
>>> On 2020/05/11 19:04:53, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> On 2020-03-15 9:36, Dave Cottlehuber wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:
>>>>>> apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can
>>>>>> specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think
>>>>>>
>>>>>> e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions
>>>>>> <https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions>
>>>>>
>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
>>>>>> might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Given that we already have email integration with GitHub, this will
>>>> probably be easier to get through the ASF bureaucracy than something
>>>> brand new.
>>>>
>>>> I'm willing to take this through Infra if people agree to it. It doesn't
>>>> look like there are any separate "boards" or tags yet, so the proposal
>>>> would likely be that discussions there would get emailed onto user@. The
>>>> hard part will be getting replies to the thread on user@ to go back into
>>>> the discussion on GH; we might be able to get an "asf-bot" to do this
>>>> for us.
>>>>
>>>> I also looked at Infra's JIRA database, and no one has put in this
>>>> request there yet. So, we'd be the first, with all the difficulties that
>>>> entails.
>>>>
>>>> Can I get an informal "vote" on this approach and go-ahead? Since it's
>>>> informal, anyone is encouraged to respond.
>>>>
>>>> -Joan "adopt, adapt, improve" Touzet
>>>>
Re: moving email lists to GitHub Discussions (Was: [DISCUSS] moving
email lists to Discourse)
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
On 2020-05-22 13:31, Joan Touzet wrote:
> I haven't gotten a lot of feedback on this proposal. (I know a lot of
> people are marching towards deadlines right now.) I also don't want to
> take it to users@, unless there's a reality of it happening.
>
> In the interest of moving this forward, I'm going to open an exploratory
> issue with Infra to see how much work it'd be to make this happen.
> Hopefully, we're not the first people to ask.
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-20301 has been filed.
> We'll still need a vote here, or on users@, before we would actually
> move activity to GH Discussions, but it won't be the gating factor for a
> while yet, I bet.
>
> FYI, per our project guidelines/bylaws, this would be a non-technical
> decision, allowing for lazy consensus and a lazy majority (3 binding
> +1s, more binding +1s than binding -1s), with binding votes cast by
> committers, and no vetos.
>
> -Joan
>
> On 2020-05-12 14:41, Joan Touzet wrote:
>> On 2020-05-12 5:46 a.m., Ilya Khlopotov wrote:
>>> I would be +1 as long as it works and we have options to migrate
>>> archive elsewhere if/when we need to.
>>> You are proposing to mirror email traffic which means that mail
>>> archive would have a complete history and spare the project from
>>> total vendor lock in.
>>>
>>
>> Yup, that'd be a requirement from the ASF's perspective, regardless of
>> technology we select.
>>
>> -Joan
>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> ILYA
>>>
>>> On 2020/05/11 19:04:53, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> On 2020-03-15 9:36, Dave Cottlehuber wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:
>>>>>> apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I
>>>>>> think
>>>>>>
>>>>>> e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions
>>>>>> <https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions>
>>>>>
>>>>> interesting.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
>>>>>> might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Given that we already have email integration with GitHub, this will
>>>> probably be easier to get through the ASF bureaucracy than something
>>>> brand new.
>>>>
>>>> I'm willing to take this through Infra if people agree to it. It
>>>> doesn't
>>>> look like there are any separate "boards" or tags yet, so the proposal
>>>> would likely be that discussions there would get emailed onto user@.
>>>> The
>>>> hard part will be getting replies to the thread on user@ to go back
>>>> into
>>>> the discussion on GH; we might be able to get an "asf-bot" to do this
>>>> for us.
>>>>
>>>> I also looked at Infra's JIRA database, and no one has put in this
>>>> request there yet. So, we'd be the first, with all the difficulties
>>>> that
>>>> entails.
>>>>
>>>> Can I get an informal "vote" on this approach and go-ahead? Since it's
>>>> informal, anyone is encouraged to respond.
>>>>
>>>> -Joan "adopt, adapt, improve" Touzet
>>>>
Re: moving email lists to GitHub Discussions (Was: [DISCUSS] moving
email lists to Discourse)
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
I haven't gotten a lot of feedback on this proposal. (I know a lot of
people are marching towards deadlines right now.) I also don't want to
take it to users@, unless there's a reality of it happening.
In the interest of moving this forward, I'm going to open an exploratory
issue with Infra to see how much work it'd be to make this happen.
Hopefully, we're not the first people to ask.
We'll still need a vote here, or on users@, before we would actually
move activity to GH Discussions, but it won't be the gating factor for a
while yet, I bet.
FYI, per our project guidelines/bylaws, this would be a non-technical
decision, allowing for lazy consensus and a lazy majority (3 binding
+1s, more binding +1s than binding -1s), with binding votes cast by
committers, and no vetos.
-Joan
On 2020-05-12 14:41, Joan Touzet wrote:
> On 2020-05-12 5:46 a.m., Ilya Khlopotov wrote:
>> I would be +1 as long as it works and we have options to migrate
>> archive elsewhere if/when we need to.
>> You are proposing to mirror email traffic which means that mail
>> archive would have a complete history and spare the project from total
>> vendor lock in.
>>
>
> Yup, that'd be a requirement from the ASF's perspective, regardless of
> technology we select.
>
> -Joan
>
>> Best regards,
>> ILYA
>>
>> On 2020/05/11 19:04:53, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> On 2020-03-15 9:36, Dave Cottlehuber wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:
>>>>> apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can
>>>>> specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think
>>>>>
>>>>> e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions
>>>>> <https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions>
>>>>
>>>> interesting.
>>>>
>>>>> I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
>>>>> might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.
>>>
>>> Given that we already have email integration with GitHub, this will
>>> probably be easier to get through the ASF bureaucracy than something
>>> brand new.
>>>
>>> I'm willing to take this through Infra if people agree to it. It doesn't
>>> look like there are any separate "boards" or tags yet, so the proposal
>>> would likely be that discussions there would get emailed onto user@. The
>>> hard part will be getting replies to the thread on user@ to go back into
>>> the discussion on GH; we might be able to get an "asf-bot" to do this
>>> for us.
>>>
>>> I also looked at Infra's JIRA database, and no one has put in this
>>> request there yet. So, we'd be the first, with all the difficulties that
>>> entails.
>>>
>>> Can I get an informal "vote" on this approach and go-ahead? Since it's
>>> informal, anyone is encouraged to respond.
>>>
>>> -Joan "adopt, adapt, improve" Touzet
>>>
Re: moving email lists to GitHub Discussions (Was: [DISCUSS] moving
email lists to Discourse)
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
On 2020-05-12 5:46 a.m., Ilya Khlopotov wrote:
> I would be +1 as long as it works and we have options to migrate archive elsewhere if/when we need to.
> You are proposing to mirror email traffic which means that mail archive would have a complete history and spare the project from total vendor lock in.
>
Yup, that'd be a requirement from the ASF's perspective, regardless of
technology we select.
-Joan
> Best regards,
> ILYA
>
> On 2020/05/11 19:04:53, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>> On 2020-03-15 9:36, Dave Cottlehuber wrote:
>>> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:
>>>> apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can
>>>> specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think
>>>>
>>>> e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions
>>>> <https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions>
>>>
>>> interesting.
>>>
>>>> I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
>>>> might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.
>>
>> Given that we already have email integration with GitHub, this will
>> probably be easier to get through the ASF bureaucracy than something
>> brand new.
>>
>> I'm willing to take this through Infra if people agree to it. It doesn't
>> look like there are any separate "boards" or tags yet, so the proposal
>> would likely be that discussions there would get emailed onto user@. The
>> hard part will be getting replies to the thread on user@ to go back into
>> the discussion on GH; we might be able to get an "asf-bot" to do this
>> for us.
>>
>> I also looked at Infra's JIRA database, and no one has put in this
>> request there yet. So, we'd be the first, with all the difficulties that
>> entails.
>>
>> Can I get an informal "vote" on this approach and go-ahead? Since it's
>> informal, anyone is encouraged to respond.
>>
>> -Joan "adopt, adapt, improve" Touzet
>>
Re: moving email lists to GitHub Discussions (Was: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse)
Posted by Ilya Khlopotov <ii...@apache.org>.
I would be +1 as long as it works and we have options to migrate archive elsewhere if/when we need to.
You are proposing to mirror email traffic which means that mail archive would have a complete history and spare the project from total vendor lock in.
Best regards,
ILYA
On 2020/05/11 19:04:53, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 2020-03-15 9:36, Dave Cottlehuber wrote:
> > On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:
> >> apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can
> >> specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think
> >>
> >> e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions
> >> <https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions>
> >
> > interesting.
> >
> >> I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
> >> might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.
>
> Given that we already have email integration with GitHub, this will
> probably be easier to get through the ASF bureaucracy than something
> brand new.
>
> I'm willing to take this through Infra if people agree to it. It doesn't
> look like there are any separate "boards" or tags yet, so the proposal
> would likely be that discussions there would get emailed onto user@. The
> hard part will be getting replies to the thread on user@ to go back into
> the discussion on GH; we might be able to get an "asf-bot" to do this
> for us.
>
> I also looked at Infra's JIRA database, and no one has put in this
> request there yet. So, we'd be the first, with all the difficulties that
> entails.
>
> Can I get an informal "vote" on this approach and go-ahead? Since it's
> informal, anyone is encouraged to respond.
>
> -Joan "adopt, adapt, improve" Touzet
>
Re: moving email lists to GitHub Discussions (Was: [DISCUSS] moving
email lists to Discourse)
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
On 2020-03-15 9:36, Dave Cottlehuber wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:
>> apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can
>> specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think
>>
>> e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions
>> <https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions>
>
> interesting.
>
>> I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
>> might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.
Given that we already have email integration with GitHub, this will
probably be easier to get through the ASF bureaucracy than something
brand new.
I'm willing to take this through Infra if people agree to it. It doesn't
look like there are any separate "boards" or tags yet, so the proposal
would likely be that discussions there would get emailed onto user@. The
hard part will be getting replies to the thread on user@ to go back into
the discussion on GH; we might be able to get an "asf-bot" to do this
for us.
I also looked at Infra's JIRA database, and no one has put in this
request there yet. So, we'd be the first, with all the difficulties that
entails.
Can I get an informal "vote" on this approach and go-ahead? Since it's
informal, anyone is encouraged to respond.
-Joan "adopt, adapt, improve" Touzet
Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Posted by Dave Cottlehuber <dc...@skunkwerks.at>.
On Fri, 13 Mar 2020, at 14:35, Naomi Slater wrote:
> apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can
> specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think
>
> e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions
> <https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions>
interesting.
> I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this
> might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.
>
> > On 13 Mar 2020, at 00:41, Arturo GARCIA-VARGAS <ar...@ficuslabs.com> wrote:
> >
> > I'm sure Discourse is a fantastic thing (never used it!) but for us dinosaurs that still use Email it would be a bad move.
> >
> > Plain text rulez
I concur.
My 2c is that I have become a unix greybeard in habit, if not physical
attributes. I feel that neither slack nor discourse facilitate being
involved in multiple communities concurrently, they are actively hostile to
it. I spent significantly less time in discourse/slack vs irc/email
communities.
The rust discourse, and others that I follow, truncate outbound emails,
and also limit the numbers of outbound messages, effectively making it
not really email, and forcing you to browse the site. This is significantly
slower than churning through a stash of emails to catch up.
That said, user convenience trumps developer satisfaction. If the flock
is moving off mailing lists, then the shepherd should follow.
A+
Dave
Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Posted by Naomi Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think
e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions <https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions>
I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.
> On 13 Mar 2020, at 00:41, Arturo GARCIA-VARGAS <ar...@ficuslabs.com> wrote:
>
> I'm sure Discourse is a fantastic thing (never used it!) but for us dinosaurs that still use Email it would be a bad move.
>
> Plain text rulez
>
> On 12 March 2020 23:37:18 GMT+00:00, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>> FYI, WikiMedia are currently looking at moving from mailing lists to
>> Discourse and have done a comprehensive fit/gap analysis. Here's their
>> results, as current as 7 March 2020.
>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discourse
>>
>> Looks like email integration is still a problem, and specifically the
>> problem of only-mailing list users being "left behind" (i.e., the
>> bridge
>> seems to only work correctly one-way.) Other complications include data
>>
>> export.
>>
>> -Joan
>>
>> On 2020-03-12 14:56, Marcus wrote:
>>> The Discourse development team are always very helpful, and
>> friendly.
>>>
>>> http://meta.discourse.org
>>>
>>> I am sure they would help CouchDB comply with Apache rules, if there
>> are any technical issues. Once it has been discussed with Apache of
>> course.
>>>
>>> Discourse is excellent software. Thoughtfully designed and well
>> maintained. I had a Discourse server running on Digital Ocean for two
>> years.
>>>
>>> It’s really nice to use and gives the community more of a
>> campfire/hub feeling.
>>>
>>> Discourse is nothing like the old style forum software. There are
>> some talks on YouTube where Jeff (aka codinghorror) discusses how he
>> designed it (I think it was a talk at MIT?). It’s really interesting
>> from a design and development perspective.
>>>
>>> Marcus
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 12. Mar 2020, at 18:27, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Garren, thanks for thinking ahead on this one.
>>>>
>>>>> On 2020-03-12 10:32, Garren Smith wrote:
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of
>> people
>>>>> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is
>> not
>>>>> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over
>> and over.
>>>>> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have
>> subscribed to
>>>>> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However,
>> it's
>>>>> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very
>> low user
>>>>> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask
>> questions.
>>>>> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and
>> the rust
>>>>> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really
>> encourage
>>>>> participation.
>>>>
>>>> I've been having trouble getting Discourse to send me email
>> notification when someone follows up to my responses to a thread I
>> didn't start. I think I've enabled the correct settings, but it's not
>> acting as expected. Hrm.
>>>>
>>>> I do know that Discourse has a full "mailing list mode," I just
>> haven't wanted 100% of the email from FoundationDB's forum to end up in
>> my inbox. (I *would* want that for user and dev@couchdb.a.o.)
>>>>
>>>>> I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
>>>>> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse.
>> I think
>>>>> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up
>> answers to
>>>>> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
>>>>> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse
>> threads to
>>>>> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that
>> we still
>>>>> fulfill our Apache requirements.
>>>>
>>>> We'd for sure have to have everything land on the Apache CouchDB
>> mailing lists as well as here to meet Apache rules and regulations.
>> And, of course, Infrastructure is going to have to approve the move,
>> possibly the Board as well.
>>>>
>>>> With the lists still existing forever, Discourse would need to be
>> configured to accept email responses as well, from people emailing dev@
>> or user@, meaning a *bi-directional email gateway* will likely have to
>> be written/integrated. (I very much doubt Infra will be willing to
>> redirect dev@/user@ _directly_ into Discourse.)
>>>>
>>>> Thus, the bottleneck on the proposal is going to be Infrastructure's
>> desire to move ahead, as well as their ability to put resources on
>> solving the integration issues (unless you're willing to directly
>> volunteer to help code that up.)
>>>>
>>>> Infra may, for instance, want to host Discourse themselves (if I
>> recall correctly, it is self-hostable), and may find some friction
>> between that and the nascent Pony Mail project that serves out
>> lists.apache.org - if not technically, from human factors.
>>>>
>>>> You should, at a bare minimum, familiarise yourself with
>> https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@couchdb.apache.org and determine
>> why it doesn't meet our needs. A bullet-point list would be prudent;
>> Infra is bound to raise this as their first point.
>>>>
>>>>> I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing
>> lists,
>>>>> but I think it would definitely open up our community.
>>>>
>>>> I'm in support of the idea, but the devil's in the implementation
>> details. Like our efforts with git, and Slack, someone is going to have
>> to work together with Infra on this for a few months to make it
>> reality. I really hope you're volunteering to step up to that role. I
>> certainly don't have the time.
>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> Garren
>>>>
>>>> -Joan
>>>>
>>>>> [1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
>>>>> [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/
>>>
Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Posted by Naomi Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
apparently GitHub has discussions now. it's still in beta, but you can specifically request it if you want it if you contact support, I think
e.g., https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions <https://github.com/zeit/next.js/discussions>
I'm interested to know what we think about this and how this might/could fit into our plans for user support, discussion, etc.
> On 13 Mar 2020, at 00:41, Arturo GARCIA-VARGAS <ar...@ficuslabs.com> wrote:
>
> I'm sure Discourse is a fantastic thing (never used it!) but for us dinosaurs that still use Email it would be a bad move.
>
> Plain text rulez
>
> On 12 March 2020 23:37:18 GMT+00:00, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>> FYI, WikiMedia are currently looking at moving from mailing lists to
>> Discourse and have done a comprehensive fit/gap analysis. Here's their
>> results, as current as 7 March 2020.
>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discourse
>>
>> Looks like email integration is still a problem, and specifically the
>> problem of only-mailing list users being "left behind" (i.e., the
>> bridge
>> seems to only work correctly one-way.) Other complications include data
>>
>> export.
>>
>> -Joan
>>
>> On 2020-03-12 14:56, Marcus wrote:
>>> The Discourse development team are always very helpful, and
>> friendly.
>>>
>>> http://meta.discourse.org
>>>
>>> I am sure they would help CouchDB comply with Apache rules, if there
>> are any technical issues. Once it has been discussed with Apache of
>> course.
>>>
>>> Discourse is excellent software. Thoughtfully designed and well
>> maintained. I had a Discourse server running on Digital Ocean for two
>> years.
>>>
>>> It’s really nice to use and gives the community more of a
>> campfire/hub feeling.
>>>
>>> Discourse is nothing like the old style forum software. There are
>> some talks on YouTube where Jeff (aka codinghorror) discusses how he
>> designed it (I think it was a talk at MIT?). It’s really interesting
>> from a design and development perspective.
>>>
>>> Marcus
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 12. Mar 2020, at 18:27, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Garren, thanks for thinking ahead on this one.
>>>>
>>>>> On 2020-03-12 10:32, Garren Smith wrote:
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of
>> people
>>>>> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is
>> not
>>>>> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over
>> and over.
>>>>> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have
>> subscribed to
>>>>> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However,
>> it's
>>>>> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very
>> low user
>>>>> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask
>> questions.
>>>>> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and
>> the rust
>>>>> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really
>> encourage
>>>>> participation.
>>>>
>>>> I've been having trouble getting Discourse to send me email
>> notification when someone follows up to my responses to a thread I
>> didn't start. I think I've enabled the correct settings, but it's not
>> acting as expected. Hrm.
>>>>
>>>> I do know that Discourse has a full "mailing list mode," I just
>> haven't wanted 100% of the email from FoundationDB's forum to end up in
>> my inbox. (I *would* want that for user and dev@couchdb.a.o.)
>>>>
>>>>> I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
>>>>> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse.
>> I think
>>>>> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up
>> answers to
>>>>> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
>>>>> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse
>> threads to
>>>>> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that
>> we still
>>>>> fulfill our Apache requirements.
>>>>
>>>> We'd for sure have to have everything land on the Apache CouchDB
>> mailing lists as well as here to meet Apache rules and regulations.
>> And, of course, Infrastructure is going to have to approve the move,
>> possibly the Board as well.
>>>>
>>>> With the lists still existing forever, Discourse would need to be
>> configured to accept email responses as well, from people emailing dev@
>> or user@, meaning a *bi-directional email gateway* will likely have to
>> be written/integrated. (I very much doubt Infra will be willing to
>> redirect dev@/user@ _directly_ into Discourse.)
>>>>
>>>> Thus, the bottleneck on the proposal is going to be Infrastructure's
>> desire to move ahead, as well as their ability to put resources on
>> solving the integration issues (unless you're willing to directly
>> volunteer to help code that up.)
>>>>
>>>> Infra may, for instance, want to host Discourse themselves (if I
>> recall correctly, it is self-hostable), and may find some friction
>> between that and the nascent Pony Mail project that serves out
>> lists.apache.org - if not technically, from human factors.
>>>>
>>>> You should, at a bare minimum, familiarise yourself with
>> https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@couchdb.apache.org and determine
>> why it doesn't meet our needs. A bullet-point list would be prudent;
>> Infra is bound to raise this as their first point.
>>>>
>>>>> I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing
>> lists,
>>>>> but I think it would definitely open up our community.
>>>>
>>>> I'm in support of the idea, but the devil's in the implementation
>> details. Like our efforts with git, and Slack, someone is going to have
>> to work together with Infra on this for a few months to make it
>> reality. I really hope you're volunteering to step up to that role. I
>> certainly don't have the time.
>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> Garren
>>>>
>>>> -Joan
>>>>
>>>>> [1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
>>>>> [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/
>>>
Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Posted by Arturo GARCIA-VARGAS <ar...@ficuslabs.com>.
I'm sure Discourse is a fantastic thing (never used it!) but for us dinosaurs that still use Email it would be a bad move.
Plain text rulez
On 12 March 2020 23:37:18 GMT+00:00, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>FYI, WikiMedia are currently looking at moving from mailing lists to
>Discourse and have done a comprehensive fit/gap analysis. Here's their
>results, as current as 7 March 2020.
>
>https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discourse
>
>Looks like email integration is still a problem, and specifically the
>problem of only-mailing list users being "left behind" (i.e., the
>bridge
>seems to only work correctly one-way.) Other complications include data
>
>export.
>
>-Joan
>
>On 2020-03-12 14:56, Marcus wrote:
>> The Discourse development team are always very helpful, and
>friendly.
>>
>> http://meta.discourse.org
>>
>> I am sure they would help CouchDB comply with Apache rules, if there
>are any technical issues. Once it has been discussed with Apache of
>course.
>>
>> Discourse is excellent software. Thoughtfully designed and well
>maintained. I had a Discourse server running on Digital Ocean for two
>years.
>>
>> It’s really nice to use and gives the community more of a
>campfire/hub feeling.
>>
>> Discourse is nothing like the old style forum software. There are
>some talks on YouTube where Jeff (aka codinghorror) discusses how he
>designed it (I think it was a talk at MIT?). It’s really interesting
>from a design and development perspective.
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>>
>>> On 12. Mar 2020, at 18:27, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Garren, thanks for thinking ahead on this one.
>>>
>>>> On 2020-03-12 10:32, Garren Smith wrote:
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of
>people
>>>> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is
>not
>>>> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over
>and over.
>>>> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have
>subscribed to
>>>> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However,
>it's
>>>> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very
>low user
>>>> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask
>questions.
>>>> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and
>the rust
>>>> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really
>encourage
>>>> participation.
>>>
>>> I've been having trouble getting Discourse to send me email
>notification when someone follows up to my responses to a thread I
>didn't start. I think I've enabled the correct settings, but it's not
>acting as expected. Hrm.
>>>
>>> I do know that Discourse has a full "mailing list mode," I just
>haven't wanted 100% of the email from FoundationDB's forum to end up in
>my inbox. (I *would* want that for user and dev@couchdb.a.o.)
>>>
>>>> I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
>>>> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse.
>I think
>>>> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up
>answers to
>>>> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
>>>> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse
>threads to
>>>> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that
>we still
>>>> fulfill our Apache requirements.
>>>
>>> We'd for sure have to have everything land on the Apache CouchDB
>mailing lists as well as here to meet Apache rules and regulations.
>And, of course, Infrastructure is going to have to approve the move,
>possibly the Board as well.
>>>
>>> With the lists still existing forever, Discourse would need to be
>configured to accept email responses as well, from people emailing dev@
>or user@, meaning a *bi-directional email gateway* will likely have to
>be written/integrated. (I very much doubt Infra will be willing to
>redirect dev@/user@ _directly_ into Discourse.)
>>>
>>> Thus, the bottleneck on the proposal is going to be Infrastructure's
>desire to move ahead, as well as their ability to put resources on
>solving the integration issues (unless you're willing to directly
>volunteer to help code that up.)
>>>
>>> Infra may, for instance, want to host Discourse themselves (if I
>recall correctly, it is self-hostable), and may find some friction
>between that and the nascent Pony Mail project that serves out
>lists.apache.org - if not technically, from human factors.
>>>
>>> You should, at a bare minimum, familiarise yourself with
>https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@couchdb.apache.org and determine
>why it doesn't meet our needs. A bullet-point list would be prudent;
>Infra is bound to raise this as their first point.
>>>
>>>> I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing
>lists,
>>>> but I think it would definitely open up our community.
>>>
>>> I'm in support of the idea, but the devil's in the implementation
>details. Like our efforts with git, and Slack, someone is going to have
>to work together with Infra on this for a few months to make it
>reality. I really hope you're volunteering to step up to that role. I
>certainly don't have the time.
>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Garren
>>>
>>> -Joan
>>>
>>>> [1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
>>>> [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/
>>
Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
FYI, WikiMedia are currently looking at moving from mailing lists to
Discourse and have done a comprehensive fit/gap analysis. Here's their
results, as current as 7 March 2020.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discourse
Looks like email integration is still a problem, and specifically the
problem of only-mailing list users being "left behind" (i.e., the bridge
seems to only work correctly one-way.) Other complications include data
export.
-Joan
On 2020-03-12 14:56, Marcus wrote:
> The Discourse development team are always very helpful, and friendly.
>
> http://meta.discourse.org
>
> I am sure they would help CouchDB comply with Apache rules, if there are any technical issues. Once it has been discussed with Apache of course.
>
> Discourse is excellent software. Thoughtfully designed and well maintained. I had a Discourse server running on Digital Ocean for two years.
>
> It’s really nice to use and gives the community more of a campfire/hub feeling.
>
> Discourse is nothing like the old style forum software. There are some talks on YouTube where Jeff (aka codinghorror) discusses how he designed it (I think it was a talk at MIT?). It’s really interesting from a design and development perspective.
>
> Marcus
>
>
>> On 12. Mar 2020, at 18:27, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Garren, thanks for thinking ahead on this one.
>>
>>> On 2020-03-12 10:32, Garren Smith wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
>>> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
>>> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
>>> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
>>> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
>>> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
>>> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask questions.
>>> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
>>> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
>>> participation.
>>
>> I've been having trouble getting Discourse to send me email notification when someone follows up to my responses to a thread I didn't start. I think I've enabled the correct settings, but it's not acting as expected. Hrm.
>>
>> I do know that Discourse has a full "mailing list mode," I just haven't wanted 100% of the email from FoundationDB's forum to end up in my inbox. (I *would* want that for user and dev@couchdb.a.o.)
>>
>>> I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
>>> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
>>> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
>>> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
>>> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
>>> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
>>> fulfill our Apache requirements.
>>
>> We'd for sure have to have everything land on the Apache CouchDB mailing lists as well as here to meet Apache rules and regulations. And, of course, Infrastructure is going to have to approve the move, possibly the Board as well.
>>
>> With the lists still existing forever, Discourse would need to be configured to accept email responses as well, from people emailing dev@ or user@, meaning a *bi-directional email gateway* will likely have to be written/integrated. (I very much doubt Infra will be willing to redirect dev@/user@ _directly_ into Discourse.)
>>
>> Thus, the bottleneck on the proposal is going to be Infrastructure's desire to move ahead, as well as their ability to put resources on solving the integration issues (unless you're willing to directly volunteer to help code that up.)
>>
>> Infra may, for instance, want to host Discourse themselves (if I recall correctly, it is self-hostable), and may find some friction between that and the nascent Pony Mail project that serves out lists.apache.org - if not technically, from human factors.
>>
>> You should, at a bare minimum, familiarise yourself with https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@couchdb.apache.org and determine why it doesn't meet our needs. A bullet-point list would be prudent; Infra is bound to raise this as their first point.
>>
>>> I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
>>> but I think it would definitely open up our community.
>>
>> I'm in support of the idea, but the devil's in the implementation details. Like our efforts with git, and Slack, someone is going to have to work together with Infra on this for a few months to make it reality. I really hope you're volunteering to step up to that role. I certainly don't have the time.
>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Garren
>>
>> -Joan
>>
>>> [1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
>>> [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/
>
Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
FYI, WikiMedia are currently looking at moving from mailing lists to
Discourse and have done a comprehensive fit/gap analysis. Here's their
results, as current as 7 March 2020.
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Discourse
Looks like email integration is still a problem, and specifically the
problem of only-mailing list users being "left behind" (i.e., the bridge
seems to only work correctly one-way.) Other complications include data
export.
-Joan
On 2020-03-12 14:56, Marcus wrote:
> The Discourse development team are always very helpful, and friendly.
>
> http://meta.discourse.org
>
> I am sure they would help CouchDB comply with Apache rules, if there are any technical issues. Once it has been discussed with Apache of course.
>
> Discourse is excellent software. Thoughtfully designed and well maintained. I had a Discourse server running on Digital Ocean for two years.
>
> It’s really nice to use and gives the community more of a campfire/hub feeling.
>
> Discourse is nothing like the old style forum software. There are some talks on YouTube where Jeff (aka codinghorror) discusses how he designed it (I think it was a talk at MIT?). It’s really interesting from a design and development perspective.
>
> Marcus
>
>
>> On 12. Mar 2020, at 18:27, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Garren, thanks for thinking ahead on this one.
>>
>>> On 2020-03-12 10:32, Garren Smith wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
>>> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
>>> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
>>> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
>>> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
>>> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
>>> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask questions.
>>> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
>>> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
>>> participation.
>>
>> I've been having trouble getting Discourse to send me email notification when someone follows up to my responses to a thread I didn't start. I think I've enabled the correct settings, but it's not acting as expected. Hrm.
>>
>> I do know that Discourse has a full "mailing list mode," I just haven't wanted 100% of the email from FoundationDB's forum to end up in my inbox. (I *would* want that for user and dev@couchdb.a.o.)
>>
>>> I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
>>> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
>>> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
>>> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
>>> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
>>> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
>>> fulfill our Apache requirements.
>>
>> We'd for sure have to have everything land on the Apache CouchDB mailing lists as well as here to meet Apache rules and regulations. And, of course, Infrastructure is going to have to approve the move, possibly the Board as well.
>>
>> With the lists still existing forever, Discourse would need to be configured to accept email responses as well, from people emailing dev@ or user@, meaning a *bi-directional email gateway* will likely have to be written/integrated. (I very much doubt Infra will be willing to redirect dev@/user@ _directly_ into Discourse.)
>>
>> Thus, the bottleneck on the proposal is going to be Infrastructure's desire to move ahead, as well as their ability to put resources on solving the integration issues (unless you're willing to directly volunteer to help code that up.)
>>
>> Infra may, for instance, want to host Discourse themselves (if I recall correctly, it is self-hostable), and may find some friction between that and the nascent Pony Mail project that serves out lists.apache.org - if not technically, from human factors.
>>
>> You should, at a bare minimum, familiarise yourself with https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@couchdb.apache.org and determine why it doesn't meet our needs. A bullet-point list would be prudent; Infra is bound to raise this as their first point.
>>
>>> I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
>>> but I think it would definitely open up our community.
>>
>> I'm in support of the idea, but the devil's in the implementation details. Like our efforts with git, and Slack, someone is going to have to work together with Infra on this for a few months to make it reality. I really hope you're volunteering to step up to that role. I certainly don't have the time.
>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Garren
>>
>> -Joan
>>
>>> [1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
>>> [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/
>
Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Posted by Marcus <co...@wordit.com>.
The Discourse development team are always very helpful, and friendly.
http://meta.discourse.org
I am sure they would help CouchDB comply with Apache rules, if there are any technical issues. Once it has been discussed with Apache of course.
Discourse is excellent software. Thoughtfully designed and well maintained. I had a Discourse server running on Digital Ocean for two years.
It’s really nice to use and gives the community more of a campfire/hub feeling.
Discourse is nothing like the old style forum software. There are some talks on YouTube where Jeff (aka codinghorror) discusses how he designed it (I think it was a talk at MIT?). It’s really interesting from a design and development perspective.
Marcus
> On 12. Mar 2020, at 18:27, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Garren, thanks for thinking ahead on this one.
>
>> On 2020-03-12 10:32, Garren Smith wrote:
>> Hi All,
>> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
>> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
>> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
>> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
>> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
>> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
>> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask questions.
>> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
>> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
>> participation.
>
> I've been having trouble getting Discourse to send me email notification when someone follows up to my responses to a thread I didn't start. I think I've enabled the correct settings, but it's not acting as expected. Hrm.
>
> I do know that Discourse has a full "mailing list mode," I just haven't wanted 100% of the email from FoundationDB's forum to end up in my inbox. (I *would* want that for user and dev@couchdb.a.o.)
>
>> I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
>> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
>> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
>> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
>> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
>> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
>> fulfill our Apache requirements.
>
> We'd for sure have to have everything land on the Apache CouchDB mailing lists as well as here to meet Apache rules and regulations. And, of course, Infrastructure is going to have to approve the move, possibly the Board as well.
>
> With the lists still existing forever, Discourse would need to be configured to accept email responses as well, from people emailing dev@ or user@, meaning a *bi-directional email gateway* will likely have to be written/integrated. (I very much doubt Infra will be willing to redirect dev@/user@ _directly_ into Discourse.)
>
> Thus, the bottleneck on the proposal is going to be Infrastructure's desire to move ahead, as well as their ability to put resources on solving the integration issues (unless you're willing to directly volunteer to help code that up.)
>
> Infra may, for instance, want to host Discourse themselves (if I recall correctly, it is self-hostable), and may find some friction between that and the nascent Pony Mail project that serves out lists.apache.org - if not technically, from human factors.
>
> You should, at a bare minimum, familiarise yourself with https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@couchdb.apache.org and determine why it doesn't meet our needs. A bullet-point list would be prudent; Infra is bound to raise this as their first point.
>
>> I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
>> but I think it would definitely open up our community.
>
> I'm in support of the idea, but the devil's in the implementation details. Like our efforts with git, and Slack, someone is going to have to work together with Infra on this for a few months to make it reality. I really hope you're volunteering to step up to that role. I certainly don't have the time.
>
>> Cheers
>> Garren
>
> -Joan
>
>> [1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
>> [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/
Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
Hi Garren, thanks for thinking ahead on this one.
On 2020-03-12 10:32, Garren Smith wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask questions.
>
> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
> participation.
I've been having trouble getting Discourse to send me email notification
when someone follows up to my responses to a thread I didn't start. I
think I've enabled the correct settings, but it's not acting as
expected. Hrm.
I do know that Discourse has a full "mailing list mode," I just haven't
wanted 100% of the email from FoundationDB's forum to end up in my
inbox. (I *would* want that for user and dev@couchdb.a.o.)
> I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
> fulfill our Apache requirements.
We'd for sure have to have everything land on the Apache CouchDB mailing
lists as well as here to meet Apache rules and regulations. And, of
course, Infrastructure is going to have to approve the move, possibly
the Board as well.
With the lists still existing forever, Discourse would need to be
configured to accept email responses as well, from people emailing dev@
or user@, meaning a *bi-directional email gateway* will likely have to
be written/integrated. (I very much doubt Infra will be willing to
redirect dev@/user@ _directly_ into Discourse.)
Thus, the bottleneck on the proposal is going to be Infrastructure's
desire to move ahead, as well as their ability to put resources on
solving the integration issues (unless you're willing to directly
volunteer to help code that up.)
Infra may, for instance, want to host Discourse themselves (if I recall
correctly, it is self-hostable), and may find some friction between that
and the nascent Pony Mail project that serves out lists.apache.org - if
not technically, from human factors.
You should, at a bare minimum, familiarise yourself with
https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@couchdb.apache.org and determine
why it doesn't meet our needs. A bullet-point list would be prudent;
Infra is bound to raise this as their first point.
> I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
> but I think it would definitely open up our community.
I'm in support of the idea, but the devil's in the implementation
details. Like our efforts with git, and Slack, someone is going to have
to work together with Infra on this for a few months to make it reality.
I really hope you're volunteering to step up to that role. I certainly
don't have the time.
>
> Cheers
> Garren
-Joan
> [1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
> [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/
>
Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Posted by Paul Davis <pa...@gmail.com>.
Ah, fair point!
On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 10:25 AM Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 12. Mar 2020, at 16:21, Paul Davis <pa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not against anything of that nature, but if memory serves the
> > email lists are dictated by ASF policy.
>
> If you remember when we did the GitHub transition, as long as we can make
> sure messages end up on a mailing list, we should be fine wrt the requirements.
>
> Best
> Jan
> —
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 9:32 AM Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
> >> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
> >> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
> >> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
> >> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
> >> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
> >> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask questions.
> >>
> >> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
> >> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
> >> participation. I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
> >> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
> >> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
> >> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
> >>
> >> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
> >> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
> >> fulfill our Apache requirements.
> >>
> >> I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
> >> but I think it would definitely open up our community.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> Garren
> >>
> >>
> >> [1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
> >> [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/
>
Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Posted by Paul Davis <pa...@gmail.com>.
Ah, fair point!
On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 10:25 AM Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 12. Mar 2020, at 16:21, Paul Davis <pa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not against anything of that nature, but if memory serves the
> > email lists are dictated by ASF policy.
>
> If you remember when we did the GitHub transition, as long as we can make
> sure messages end up on a mailing list, we should be fine wrt the requirements.
>
> Best
> Jan
> —
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 9:32 AM Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
> >> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
> >> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
> >> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
> >> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
> >> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
> >> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask questions.
> >>
> >> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
> >> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
> >> participation. I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
> >> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
> >> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
> >> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
> >>
> >> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
> >> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
> >> fulfill our Apache requirements.
> >>
> >> I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
> >> but I think it would definitely open up our community.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> Garren
> >>
> >>
> >> [1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
> >> [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/
>
Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Posted by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>.
> On 12. Mar 2020, at 16:21, Paul Davis <pa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm not against anything of that nature, but if memory serves the
> email lists are dictated by ASF policy.
If you remember when we did the GitHub transition, as long as we can make
sure messages end up on a mailing list, we should be fine wrt the requirements.
Best
Jan
—
>
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 9:32 AM Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
>> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
>> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
>> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
>> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
>> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
>> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask questions.
>>
>> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
>> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
>> participation. I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
>> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
>> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
>> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
>>
>> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
>> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
>> fulfill our Apache requirements.
>>
>> I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
>> but I think it would definitely open up our community.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Garren
>>
>>
>> [1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
>> [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/
Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Posted by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>.
> On 12. Mar 2020, at 16:21, Paul Davis <pa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm not against anything of that nature, but if memory serves the
> email lists are dictated by ASF policy.
If you remember when we did the GitHub transition, as long as we can make
sure messages end up on a mailing list, we should be fine wrt the requirements.
Best
Jan
—
>
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 9:32 AM Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
>> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
>> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
>> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
>> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
>> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
>> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask questions.
>>
>> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
>> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
>> participation. I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
>> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
>> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
>> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
>>
>> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
>> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
>> fulfill our Apache requirements.
>>
>> I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
>> but I think it would definitely open up our community.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Garren
>>
>>
>> [1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
>> [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/
Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Posted by Paul Davis <pa...@gmail.com>.
I'm not against anything of that nature, but if memory serves the
email lists are dictated by ASF policy.
On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 9:32 AM Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask questions.
>
> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
> participation. I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
>
> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
> fulfill our Apache requirements.
>
> I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
> but I think it would definitely open up our community.
>
> Cheers
> Garren
>
>
> [1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
> [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/
Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Posted by Steven Le Roux <le...@gmail.com>.
Just wanted to share that as a user, I'm a big fan of the FDB digest sent
by discourse (FoundationDB Summary).
Great readability and save me a lot of time.
On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 3:32 PM Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask
> questions.
>
> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
> participation. I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
>
> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
> fulfill our Apache requirements.
>
> I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
> but I think it would definitely open up our community.
>
> Cheers
> Garren
>
>
> [1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
> [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/
>
Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Posted by Bill Stephenson <bi...@cherrypc.com.INVALID>.
I got your previous message just moments before I sent this one, and read it afterwards.
I had no idea there was so many specs on something like this, but it makes sense there are.
Kindest Regards,
Bill Stephenson
> On Mar 12, 2020, at 12:33 PM, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> On 2020-03-12 13:28, Bill Stephenson wrote:
>> I’ve recently pointed a few people on Reddit to this mailing list who were asking questions there. A forum would probably be a good thing to have.
>> I’m not familiar with Discourse but it looks pretty simple to spin up a digital ocean vps. <https://marketplace.digitalocean.com/apps/discourse?utm_campaign=marketplace&utm_source=marketplace#api-creation> “Mail-in-a-box <https://mailinabox.email/>” makes it pretty easy to set up an email server. DigitalOcean probably isn’t the best platform for that. I have one I setup there but it took some time to get the larger mail providers to unblock it. That’s probably the case no matter how you approach that though. Using a 3rd party service like MailChimp might be easier but would probably cost more.
>> Unfortunately I’m not in a position to donate any cash to this but I could spend some time on getting Discourse up and running on a DO vps if that’s a viable option.
>
> Please don't take this step. Apache Infra needs to be aware of what's going on, and fully support whatever approach is taken. Our community cannot be seen to be "going around them" without some severe backlash.
>
> As I mentioned in my other email, let's work together with them to make this happen.
>
> -Joan
>
>> Kindest Regards,
>> Bill Stephenson
>>> On Mar 12, 2020, at 9:32 AM, Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
>>> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
>>> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
>>> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
>>> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
>>> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
>>> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask questions.
>>>
>>> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
>>> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
>>> participation. I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
>>> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
>>> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
>>> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
>>>
>>> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
>>> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
>>> fulfill our Apache requirements.
>>>
>>> I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
>>> but I think it would definitely open up our community.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Garren
>>>
>>>
>>> [1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
>>> [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/
Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
Hi Bill,
On 2020-03-12 13:28, Bill Stephenson wrote:
> I’ve recently pointed a few people on Reddit to this mailing list who were asking questions there. A forum would probably be a good thing to have.
>
> I’m not familiar with Discourse but it looks pretty simple to spin up a digital ocean vps. <https://marketplace.digitalocean.com/apps/discourse?utm_campaign=marketplace&utm_source=marketplace#api-creation> “Mail-in-a-box <https://mailinabox.email/>” makes it pretty easy to set up an email server. DigitalOcean probably isn’t the best platform for that. I have one I setup there but it took some time to get the larger mail providers to unblock it. That’s probably the case no matter how you approach that though. Using a 3rd party service like MailChimp might be easier but would probably cost more.
>
> Unfortunately I’m not in a position to donate any cash to this but I could spend some time on getting Discourse up and running on a DO vps if that’s a viable option.
Please don't take this step. Apache Infra needs to be aware of what's
going on, and fully support whatever approach is taken. Our community
cannot be seen to be "going around them" without some severe backlash.
As I mentioned in my other email, let's work together with them to make
this happen.
-Joan
>
> Kindest Regards,
>
> Bill Stephenson
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Mar 12, 2020, at 9:32 AM, Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
>> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
>> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
>> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
>> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
>> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
>> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask questions.
>>
>> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
>> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
>> participation. I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
>> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
>> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
>> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
>>
>> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
>> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
>> fulfill our Apache requirements.
>>
>> I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
>> but I think it would definitely open up our community.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Garren
>>
>>
>> [1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
>> [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Posted by Bill Stephenson <bi...@cherrypc.com.INVALID>.
I’ve recently pointed a few people on Reddit to this mailing list who were asking questions there. A forum would probably be a good thing to have.
I’m not familiar with Discourse but it looks pretty simple to spin up a digital ocean vps. <https://marketplace.digitalocean.com/apps/discourse?utm_campaign=marketplace&utm_source=marketplace#api-creation> “Mail-in-a-box <https://mailinabox.email/>” makes it pretty easy to set up an email server. DigitalOcean probably isn’t the best platform for that. I have one I setup there but it took some time to get the larger mail providers to unblock it. That’s probably the case no matter how you approach that though. Using a 3rd party service like MailChimp might be easier but would probably cost more.
Unfortunately I’m not in a position to donate any cash to this but I could spend some time on getting Discourse up and running on a DO vps if that’s a viable option.
Kindest Regards,
Bill Stephenson
> On Mar 12, 2020, at 9:32 AM, Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask questions.
>
> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
> participation. I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
>
> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
> fulfill our Apache requirements.
>
> I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
> but I think it would definitely open up our community.
>
> Cheers
> Garren
>
>
> [1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
> [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/
Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Posted by Paul Davis <pa...@gmail.com>.
I'm not against anything of that nature, but if memory serves the
email lists are dictated by ASF policy.
On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 9:32 AM Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask questions.
>
> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
> participation. I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
>
> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
> fulfill our Apache requirements.
>
> I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
> but I think it would definitely open up our community.
>
> Cheers
> Garren
>
>
> [1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
> [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/
Re: [DISCUSS] moving email lists to Discourse
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
Hi Garren, thanks for thinking ahead on this one.
On 2020-03-12 10:32, Garren Smith wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> The CouchDB slack channel has been a real success with lots of people
> asking for help and getting involved. The main issue is that it is not
> searchable so we often get people asking the same questions over and over.
> The user mailing list is great in that sense that if you have subscribed to
> it you have a searchable list of questions and answers. However, it's
> really not user-friendly and judging by the fact that it has very low user
> participation I'm guessing most people prefer to use slack to ask questions.
>
> I've been really impressed with how the FoundationDB forum[1] and the rust
> internal forum work [2]. I find them easy to use and really encourage
> participation.
I've been having trouble getting Discourse to send me email notification
when someone follows up to my responses to a thread I didn't start. I
think I've enabled the correct settings, but it's not acting as
expected. Hrm.
I do know that Discourse has a full "mailing list mode," I just haven't
wanted 100% of the email from FoundationDB's forum to end up in my
inbox. (I *would* want that for user and dev@couchdb.a.o.)
> I would like to propose that we move our user and dev
> discussion to Discourse or a forum that works as well as Discourse. I think
> that would make it really easy for users of CouchDB to look up answers to
> questions and get involved in the development discussion.
> I haven't checked yet, but I'm sure we could get all discourse threads to
> automatically email back to the user and dev mailing list so that we still
> fulfill our Apache requirements.
We'd for sure have to have everything land on the Apache CouchDB mailing
lists as well as here to meet Apache rules and regulations. And, of
course, Infrastructure is going to have to approve the move, possibly
the Board as well.
With the lists still existing forever, Discourse would need to be
configured to accept email responses as well, from people emailing dev@
or user@, meaning a *bi-directional email gateway* will likely have to
be written/integrated. (I very much doubt Infra will be willing to
redirect dev@/user@ _directly_ into Discourse.)
Thus, the bottleneck on the proposal is going to be Infrastructure's
desire to move ahead, as well as their ability to put resources on
solving the integration issues (unless you're willing to directly
volunteer to help code that up.)
Infra may, for instance, want to host Discourse themselves (if I recall
correctly, it is self-hostable), and may find some friction between that
and the nascent Pony Mail project that serves out lists.apache.org - if
not technically, from human factors.
You should, at a bare minimum, familiarise yourself with
https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@couchdb.apache.org and determine
why it doesn't meet our needs. A bullet-point list would be prudent;
Infra is bound to raise this as their first point.
> I know its a big step away from what we're used to with our mailing lists,
> but I think it would definitely open up our community.
I'm in support of the idea, but the devil's in the implementation
details. Like our efforts with git, and Slack, someone is going to have
to work together with Infra on this for a few months to make it reality.
I really hope you're volunteering to step up to that role. I certainly
don't have the time.
>
> Cheers
> Garren
-Joan
> [1] https://forums.foundationdb.org/
> [2] https://internals.rust-lang.org/
>