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Posted to dev@cordova.apache.org by "Treggiari, Leo" <le...@intel.com> on 2015/04/08 17:01:26 UTC
Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey (http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
Most Dreaded technologies:
Salesforce 73.2%
Visual Basic 72.0%
Wordpress 68.2%
Matlab 65.6%
Sharepoint 62.8%
LAMP 62.2%
Perl 59.2%
Cordova 58.8% **************
Coffeescript 54.7%
Other 57.3%
% of devs who are developing with the language or tech but have not expressed interest in continuing to do so.
Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some possible answers. I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but rather looking for feedback from those who have heard developers express frustration with Cordova:
* There is no problem - unclear question led to the answer
* The problem is really about creating native apps in JavaScript + HTML5
* Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability | usability | reliability)
o Too hard to set up development environment
o The command CLI is too complicated
o Not enough learning material (documentation, articles, books)
o Too many bugs
o Changes too frequently
Leo
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Andrew Grieve <ag...@chromium.org>.
Fun survey! Other highlights:
The more things change, the more likely it is those things are written in
JavaScript with NotePad++ on a Windows machine (theme: dark) using Git, and
tabs instead of spaces.
users who have 10,000 rep or more prefer spaces to tabs at a ratio of 3 to
1.
On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 11:01 AM, Treggiari, Leo <le...@intel.com>
wrote:
> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey (
> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
>
> Most Dreaded technologies:
> Salesforce 73.2%
> Visual Basic 72.0%
> Wordpress 68.2%
> Matlab 65.6%
> Sharepoint 62.8%
> LAMP 62.2%
> Perl 59.2%
> Cordova 58.8% **************
> Coffeescript 54.7%
> Other 57.3%
> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech but have not
> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>
> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some possible answers. I'm
> not suggesting that any of these are true, but rather looking for feedback
> from those who have heard developers express frustration with Cordova:
>
>
> * There is no problem - unclear question led to the answer
>
> * The problem is really about creating native apps in JavaScript +
> HTML5
>
> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability | usability |
> reliability)
>
> o Too hard to set up development environment
>
> o The command CLI is too complicated
>
> o Not enough learning material (documentation, articles, books)
>
> o Too many bugs
>
> o Changes too frequently
>
> Leo
>
>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Raymond Camden <ra...@gmail.com>.
What benefits does Apache provide that outweigh the negatives of not
being able to use a bug tracker that more people may prefer? And I
don't ask that sarcastically - I'm honestly curious. I'd assume
*anywhere* Cordova existed would have benefits and negatives, but if
others feel that Apache's benefits do not outweigh the negatives, is
it time to open a new thread/discussion about that?
I know I've seen - seemingly to me - odd issues with the Apache rules
on the Ripple list too. Some of the policies seem truly weird. I
assume there is deep reasoning behind each rule, but if Apache is
*not* flexible and this group decides it would be more beneficial to
move, why not just do so?
On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions and
>> participation.
>>
>>
> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are clearly
> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to fight
> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this project, and
> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
>
>
>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way they are
>> and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to propose changes
>> that work.
>>
>>
> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose rules
> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
>
>
>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that. Instead
>> it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are some individuals
>> who certainly do not fit into this category, but their voices are usually
>> drowned out.
>>
>>
> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we donated
> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been complained
> about so many times by our community members who have followed us since we
> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people who feel
> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to convince
> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially since your
> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts of the
> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we haven't
> forked yet.
>
> Joe
>
> Ross
>>
>>
>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>> ________________________________
>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>
>> Joe,
>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while at the
>> same time without being punched in the face :-)
>>
>> Marcel,
>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk to
>> Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova developers to
>> see if what is the possibility to use github with the understanding that
>> there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place like I layout in my email?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana <cs...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > > One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
>> > > We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>> > >
>> > > 1. Use Github Issues
>> > > Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
>> > > Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
>> > > corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing this with
>> > > mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache hate
>> GitHub
>> > with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems just
>> > getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to dump JIRA
>> and
>> > go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
>> > infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less accessible to
>> > our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > > Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache Foundation,
>> to
>> > > another open source Foundation? That should not affect the community
>> they
>> > > should still continue to interface in Github.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving the ASF
>> > would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to use GitHub for
>> > everything again like when Nitobi existed. One thing that I think we
>> don't
>> > communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and how
>> these
>> > stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared about
>> such
>> > a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef <st...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > As a survey it's always biased.
>> > > >
>> > > > I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem is
>> > > clearly
>> > > > not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this. They
>> > think
>> > > > Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
>> > > > Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web nor
>> > > > anything relative to the mobile.
>> > > >
>> > > > There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most of
>> them
>> > > are
>> > > > native :)
>> > > >
>> > > > --
>> > > > Stéphane Bachelier,
>> > > > Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
>> > > > B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
>> > > >
>> > > > 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
>> > > > jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>> > > > >:
>> > > >
>> > > > > Hi,
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I am a developper and I use Cordova.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
>> details
>> > > > about
>> > > > > how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the work
>> > > done
>> > > > > and appreciate it.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think I am
>> > the
>> > > > > only one.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as good as
>> > > native
>> > > > > ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do for
>> the
>> > > > apps I
>> > > > > work on!
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
>> > > > >
>> > > > > 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Ty...@drumpants.com>:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > I think what colors people's perception the most is the graphics
>> > and
>> > > > > > interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few possible
>> > > reasons:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3 years
>> > ago.
>> > > > Even
>> > > > > > though it's improved so much since then, those first apps still
>> > hang
>> > > in
>> > > > > > people's minds.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth, buttery
>> > > > > > animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern WebKit views,
>> but
>> > > > it's
>> > > > > > hard and takes a lot of work.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > * For instance, I came across an article once that recommended
>> > using
>> > > > CSS
>> > > > > > transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed my
>> whole
>> > > way
>> > > > > of
>> > > > > > thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because of
>> > it. I
>> > > > > think
>> > > > > > it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like that
>> for
>> > > > > making
>> > > > > > top-notch apps.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port their
>> > > iOS-style
>> > > > > > design straight to Android without considering that Android users
>> > > > expect
>> > > > > a
>> > > > > > completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do about
>> > > this.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Tyler
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
>> > > > > michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
>> > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > >This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the score
>> is
>> > > low
>> > > > > > >because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and the
>> > > default
>> > > > > > >Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional - Git
>> > > Bash,
>> > > > > > >Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven development, and
>> > no
>> > > > > > >full
>> > > > > > >blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving this and
>> > as
>> > > > > > >Visual
>> > > > > > >Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those survey
>> > > > results
>> > > > > > >improve.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
>> > D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
>> > > > > > >wrote:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >> Absolutely right :-)
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
>> > developers
>> > > > > > >using
>> > > > > > >> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
>> nothing
>> > > > about
>> > > > > > >the
>> > > > > > >> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
>> > JS->Native->JS
>> > > > > > >bridge.
>> > > > > > >> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
>> > communitcation
>> > > > > > >with
>> > > > > > >> plugins.
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
>> > special
>> > > is
>> > > > > > >> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
>> which
>> > > are
>> > > > > > >not
>> > > > > > >> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of that
>> :-)
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power of the
>> > > > > > >cordova
>> > > > > > >> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> Daniel Toplak
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> > > > > > >> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>> > > > > > >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
>> > > > > > >> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>> > > > > > >> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
>> > happy?
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development, because
>> > > > > > >everyone can
>> > > > > > >> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
>> > applications
>> > > > is
>> > > > > > >> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
>> application
>> > > > from
>> > > > > > >> another company, you're probably going to end up re-writing it
>> > and
>> > > > if
>> > > > > > >> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it natively
>> > because
>> > > > > > >that's
>> > > > > > >> what you're more comfortable with.
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time soon, and
>> > > both
>> > > > > > >those
>> > > > > > >> technologies share the same property that anyone can create a
>> > > shitty
>> > > > > > >> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for a
>> > > reason,
>> > > > > > >and at
>> > > > > > >> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult because I
>> > > think
>> > > > > > >Drupal
>> > > > > > >> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I don't
>> > think
>> > > we
>> > > > > > >should
>> > > > > > >> care what developers say in a survey, since most developers
>> are
>> > > > > > >terrible
>> > > > > > >> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're releasing
>> > isn't
>> > > > > > >terrible.
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
>> > > > > > ><le...@intel.com>
>> > > > > > >> wrote:
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey (
>> > > > > > >> > http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> > Most Dreaded technologies:
>> > > > > > >> > Salesforce 73.2%
>> > > > > > >> > Visual Basic 72.0%
>> > > > > > >> > Wordpress 68.2%
>> > > > > > >> > Matlab 65.6%
>> > > > > > >> > Sharepoint 62.8%
>> > > > > > >> > LAMP 62.2%
>> > > > > > >> > Perl 59.2%
>> > > > > > >> > Cordova 58.8% **************
>> > > > > > >> > Coffeescript 54.7%
>> > > > > > >> > Other 57.3%
>> > > > > > >> > % of devs who are developing with the language or tech but
>> > have
>> > > > not
>> > > > > > >> > expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> > Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some possible
>> > > answers.
>> > > > > > >> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but rather
>> > > looking
>> > > > > > >for
>> > > > > > >> > feedback from those who have heard developers express
>> > > frustration
>> > > > > > >with
>> > > > > > >> Cordova:
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> > * There is no problem - unclear question led to the
>> > > answer
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> > * The problem is really about creating native apps in
>> > > > > > >JavaScript +
>> > > > > > >> > HTML5
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> > * Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability |
>> > > > > > >usability |
>> > > > > > >> > reliability)
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> > o Too hard to set up development environment
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> > o The command CLI is too complicated
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> > o Not enough learning material (documentation, articles,
>> > > books)
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> > o Too many bugs
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> > o Changes too frequently
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> > Leo
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >> >
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Tyler Freeman
>> > > > > > CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Sent from mobile
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > --
>> > > > > Cordialement,
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Voltaire José-luc
>> > > > > Directeur Technique
>> > > > > Netdevices
>> > > > > e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Carlos Santana
>> > > <cs...@gmail.com>
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Carlos Santana
>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>
--
===========================================================================
Raymond Camden, Developer Advocate for MobileFirst at IBM
Email : raymondcamden@gmail.com
Blog : www.raymondcamden.com
Twitter: raymondcamden
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Re: Github, again.
Posted by Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io>.
Alas, no. Vote threads MUST be an email. Our original interpretation:
tagging a release by a PMC 'platform lead' === Vote… which, some may
recall, the board did not take kindly.
Moving from code to conversation def has slowed the project cadence down.
Our last major release was July 2013. There was a significant stall in
adoption but that seems to have recovered and really put wind back in the
sails for downstreams I can measure like PhoneGap. Maybe that is ok. Def a
great conversation piece.
On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 3:55 PM, Josh Soref <js...@blackberry.com> wrote:
> Tony wrote:
> > FWIW, I don¹t think that Cordova JIRA is horrible.
> > We use JIRA at Intel and have had a lot of intermittent performance
> > problems that were mostly resolved with a recent version update.
> > It seems like a lot of effort has been invested in the Cordova JIRA and
> it
> > seems (to me) like it would be a shame to move away from it.
> > I¹ll leave it at that and comment on your other thread Michal.
>
> Fwiw, we use JIRA at work, and I hate that JIRA much more than I hate
> Apache's JIRA.
>
> We also have a GitHub tracker that we use for WebWorks.
> I'm not a big fan of it, but the simplicity is a nice thing relative to all
> of the mandatory knobs in my least favorite JIRA.
>
> GitHub's linking features are vaguely nice.
>
> Note: in general, I'm a proponent of being able to review the history of
> code and being able to understand why a change was made.
> Traditionally, that involves looking at a bug tracker and reading the bug.
>
> However, neither JIRAs I've mentioned today are used that way, often
> they're
> at best Process Shepherds, and often they're just full of noise.
>
> I don't need a Process Shepherd, and if I have to have one, I'd rather it
> be
> Pull Requests.
>
> A funny thing to consider in this area:
>
> Instead of having a vote thread which people can email -- and which
> frequently spirals out of control.
> We could have a Vote RC file, and people could pull request their +1s.
>
> No one in their right mind would try to add a long comment into such a vote
> file.
>
> But, we could have a discuss thread. And we could receive emails about pull
> requests for the +1s.
>
> Such a thing could be trackable, in a meaningful way...
> And your commit message / pull request for a +1 could explain what you
> tested.
>
> > On the other hand (and this is the real point I wanted to make), the wiki
> > is horrible.
>
> > It is barely useable and it¹s poor performance is a major de-motivator
> > when it comes to editing it.
>
> Its performance definitely isn't a plus.
>
> The process of managing accounts is a bumber.
>
> I'd certainly favor a pull request model (which GitHub pages would give
> me).
>
> > There are important documents and information that only exist on the
> wiki!
> > In one of the other threads, Carlos suggested using Github wiki - it
> seems
> > like this would be a great change to me if it is possible.
> > From my perspective, this would be a far more valuable change than moving
> > from JIRA to Github Issues.
> > Just wanted to raise it since you seem to be interested in spinning some
> > of these topics off into dedicated discussion threadsŠ
>
> I've seen some projects try using GitHub pages, and I haven't seen many
> where it works particularly well.
> OTOH, I haven't seen *anything* that works particularly well.
>
RE: Github, again.
Posted by Josh Soref <js...@blackberry.com>.
Tony wrote:
> FWIW, I don¹t think that Cordova JIRA is horrible.
> We use JIRA at Intel and have had a lot of intermittent performance
> problems that were mostly resolved with a recent version update.
> It seems like a lot of effort has been invested in the Cordova JIRA and it
> seems (to me) like it would be a shame to move away from it.
> I¹ll leave it at that and comment on your other thread Michal.
Fwiw, we use JIRA at work, and I hate that JIRA much more than I hate
Apache's JIRA.
We also have a GitHub tracker that we use for WebWorks.
I'm not a big fan of it, but the simplicity is a nice thing relative to all
of the mandatory knobs in my least favorite JIRA.
GitHub's linking features are vaguely nice.
Note: in general, I'm a proponent of being able to review the history of
code and being able to understand why a change was made.
Traditionally, that involves looking at a bug tracker and reading the bug.
However, neither JIRAs I've mentioned today are used that way, often they're
at best Process Shepherds, and often they're just full of noise.
I don't need a Process Shepherd, and if I have to have one, I'd rather it be
Pull Requests.
A funny thing to consider in this area:
Instead of having a vote thread which people can email -- and which
frequently spirals out of control.
We could have a Vote RC file, and people could pull request their +1s.
No one in their right mind would try to add a long comment into such a vote
file.
But, we could have a discuss thread. And we could receive emails about pull
requests for the +1s.
Such a thing could be trackable, in a meaningful way...
And your commit message / pull request for a +1 could explain what you
tested.
> On the other hand (and this is the real point I wanted to make), the wiki
> is horrible.
> It is barely useable and it¹s poor performance is a major de-motivator
> when it comes to editing it.
Its performance definitely isn't a plus.
The process of managing accounts is a bumber.
I'd certainly favor a pull request model (which GitHub pages would give me).
> There are important documents and information that only exist on the wiki!
> In one of the other threads, Carlos suggested using Github wiki - it seems
> like this would be a great change to me if it is possible.
> From my perspective, this would be a far more valuable change than moving
> from JIRA to Github Issues.
> Just wanted to raise it since you seem to be interested in spinning some
> of these topics off into dedicated discussion threadsŠ
I've seen some projects try using GitHub pages, and I haven't seen many
where it works particularly well.
OTOH, I haven't seen *anything* that works particularly well.
Re: Github, again.
Posted by "Homer, Tony" <to...@intel.com>.
FWIW, I don¹t think that Cordova JIRA is horrible.
We use JIRA at Intel and have had a lot of intermittent performance
problems that were mostly resolved with a recent version update.
It seems like a lot of effort has been invested in the Cordova JIRA and it
seems (to me) like it would be a shame to move away from it.
I¹ll leave it at that and comment on your other thread Michal.
On the other hand (and this is the real point I wanted to make), the wiki
is horrible.
It is barely useable and it¹s poor performance is a major de-motivator
when it comes to editing it.
There are important documents and information that only exist on the wiki!
In one of the other threads, Carlos suggested using Github wiki - it seems
like this would be a great change to me if it is possible.
>From my perspective, this would be a far more valuable change than moving
from JIRA to Github Issues.
Just wanted to raise it since you seem to be interested in spinning some
of these topics off into dedicated discussion threadsŠ
Tony
On 4/10/15, 10:31 AM, "Michal Mocny" <mm...@chromium.org> wrote:
>Excellent, thank you Jim!
>
>I'll start a new thread about it!
>
>On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
>> IMO, issue tracking is different, although if it does go
>> away, the migration process can be very painful. If the
>> Cordova project is willing to "risk" issue tracking on
>> an external provider, then, that is their decision and
>> it's not at the same level of concern as the repo itself.
>>
>> > On Apr 10, 2015, at 10:07 AM, Michal Mocny <mm...@chromium.org>
>>wrote:
>> >
>> > This makes sense for primary code repo, and with the latest github
>> > integrations (auto-closing PR, faster sync with upstream), it really
>> hasn't
>> > been all that painful any more (just a bit more work for committers
>>when
>> > doing PR).
>> >
>> > However, does that policy also apply to issue tracking? I think that
>>is
>> > actually the biggest hurdle -- many in the community won't opt to try
>> JIRA,
>> > issues go unreported.
>> >
>> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>
>>wrote:
>> >
>> >> As far as I know, it hasn't happened.
>> >>
>> >> The ASF has a great reputation for having very complete and
>> >> detailed provenance; The combination of that record (well
>> >> deserved, and well earned) as well as the ALv2 license is
>> >> what makes Apache code so universally prevalent in IT nowaways.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> On Apr 10, 2015, at 9:22 AM, Raymond Camden
>><ra...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Interesting. Thanks for sharing this. In terms of "forging"
>>authorship
>> >>> - is that something that has actually happened in the past and been
>>an
>> >>> issue, or is just something that is feared?
>> >>>
>> >>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 8:10 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
>> >>>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
>> >>>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
>> >>>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
>> >>>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>
>>
>>http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Foundation-tp572248
>>3p5722847.html
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
>> >>>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the
>>IP
>> >> (code).
>> >>>>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
>> >> Code) or
>> >>>>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting
>>that
>> >> most
>> >>>>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>
>>
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Re: Github, again.
Posted by Michal Mocny <mm...@chromium.org>.
Excellent, thank you Jim!
I'll start a new thread about it!
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> IMO, issue tracking is different, although if it does go
> away, the migration process can be very painful. If the
> Cordova project is willing to "risk" issue tracking on
> an external provider, then, that is their decision and
> it's not at the same level of concern as the repo itself.
>
> > On Apr 10, 2015, at 10:07 AM, Michal Mocny <mm...@chromium.org> wrote:
> >
> > This makes sense for primary code repo, and with the latest github
> > integrations (auto-closing PR, faster sync with upstream), it really
> hasn't
> > been all that painful any more (just a bit more work for committers when
> > doing PR).
> >
> > However, does that policy also apply to issue tracking? I think that is
> > actually the biggest hurdle -- many in the community won't opt to try
> JIRA,
> > issues go unreported.
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> As far as I know, it hasn't happened.
> >>
> >> The ASF has a great reputation for having very complete and
> >> detailed provenance; The combination of that record (well
> >> deserved, and well earned) as well as the ALv2 license is
> >> what makes Apache code so universally prevalent in IT nowaways.
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Apr 10, 2015, at 9:22 AM, Raymond Camden <ra...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Interesting. Thanks for sharing this. In terms of "forging" authorship
> >>> - is that something that has actually happened in the past and been an
> >>> issue, or is just something that is feared?
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 8:10 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>
> wrote:
> >>>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
> >>>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
> >>>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
> >>>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
> >>>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Foundation-tp5722483p5722847.html
> >>>>
> >>>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
> >>>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
> >> (code).
> >>>>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
> >> Code) or
> >>>>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
> >> most
> >>>>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
Re: Github, again.
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
IMO, issue tracking is different, although if it does go
away, the migration process can be very painful. If the
Cordova project is willing to "risk" issue tracking on
an external provider, then, that is their decision and
it's not at the same level of concern as the repo itself.
> On Apr 10, 2015, at 10:07 AM, Michal Mocny <mm...@chromium.org> wrote:
>
> This makes sense for primary code repo, and with the latest github
> integrations (auto-closing PR, faster sync with upstream), it really hasn't
> been all that painful any more (just a bit more work for committers when
> doing PR).
>
> However, does that policy also apply to issue tracking? I think that is
> actually the biggest hurdle -- many in the community won't opt to try JIRA,
> issues go unreported.
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
>> As far as I know, it hasn't happened.
>>
>> The ASF has a great reputation for having very complete and
>> detailed provenance; The combination of that record (well
>> deserved, and well earned) as well as the ALv2 license is
>> what makes Apache code so universally prevalent in IT nowaways.
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 10, 2015, at 9:22 AM, Raymond Camden <ra...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Interesting. Thanks for sharing this. In terms of "forging" authorship
>>> - is that something that has actually happened in the past and been an
>>> issue, or is just something that is feared?
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 8:10 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
>>>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
>>>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
>>>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
>>>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
>>>>
>>>>
>> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Foundation-tp5722483p5722847.html
>>>>
>>>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
>>>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
>> (code).
>>>>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
>> Code) or
>>>>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
>> most
>>>>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
>>>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>
>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Github, again.
Posted by Michal Mocny <mm...@chromium.org>.
This makes sense for primary code repo, and with the latest github
integrations (auto-closing PR, faster sync with upstream), it really hasn't
been all that painful any more (just a bit more work for committers when
doing PR).
However, does that policy also apply to issue tracking? I think that is
actually the biggest hurdle -- many in the community won't opt to try JIRA,
issues go unreported.
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> As far as I know, it hasn't happened.
>
> The ASF has a great reputation for having very complete and
> detailed provenance; The combination of that record (well
> deserved, and well earned) as well as the ALv2 license is
> what makes Apache code so universally prevalent in IT nowaways.
>
>
> > On Apr 10, 2015, at 9:22 AM, Raymond Camden <ra...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Interesting. Thanks for sharing this. In terms of "forging" authorship
> > - is that something that has actually happened in the past and been an
> > issue, or is just something that is feared?
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 8:10 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
> >> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
> >> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
> >> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
> >> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
> >>
> >>
> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Foundation-tp5722483p5722847.html
> >>
> >> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
> >> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
> >>
> >>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
> (code).
> >>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
> Code) or
> >>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
> >>>
> >>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
> most
> >>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
> >>>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
Re: Github, again.
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
As far as I know, it hasn't happened.
The ASF has a great reputation for having very complete and
detailed provenance; The combination of that record (well
deserved, and well earned) as well as the ALv2 license is
what makes Apache code so universally prevalent in IT nowaways.
> On Apr 10, 2015, at 9:22 AM, Raymond Camden <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Interesting. Thanks for sharing this. In terms of "forging" authorship
> - is that something that has actually happened in the past and been an
> issue, or is just something that is feared?
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 8:10 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
>>
>> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Foundation-tp5722483p5722847.html
>>
>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
>>
>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>>
>>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP (code).
>>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code) or
>>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>>>
>>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that most
>>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
>>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Github, again.
Posted by Raymond Camden <ra...@gmail.com>.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing this. In terms of "forging" authorship
- is that something that has actually happened in the past and been an
issue, or is just something that is feared?
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 8:10 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
>
> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Foundation-tp5722483p5722847.html
>
> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
>
>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>
>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP (code).
>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code) or
>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>>
>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that most
>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Github, again.
Posted by Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io>.
I used your provenance first but clarification did come with the typically
boogyman stuff I hear. Yes those things are ridiculous as is you ignoring
my earlier emails and only responding to that. As usual.
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:53 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> You said:
>
> 1. Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
> Code) or worse
> 2. go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>
> neither of which is the *real* reason, although #1 is,
> of course, a viable concern (disappear or start charging)
> and #2 is a complete strawman.
>
>
> > On Apr 10, 2015, at 11:16 AM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >
> > I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
> >> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
> >> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
> >> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
> >> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
> >>
> >> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-
> >> Foundation-tp5722483p5722847.html
> >>
> >> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
> >> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
> >>
> >>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
> >> (code).
> >>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code)
> >> or
> >>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
> >>>
> >>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
> >> most
> >>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
> >>>>> but I
> >>>>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
> >>>>> (some
> >>>>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
> >>>>> anyways).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
> >>>>> constructive.
> >>>>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the
> >>>>> sake
> >>>>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
> >>>>> others
> >>>>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
> >>>>> negative towards.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Another angle:
> >>>>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
> >>>>> views are
> >>>>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
> >>>>> make it
> >>>>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just
> >>>>> makes
> >>>>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
> >>>>> contribute to
> >>>>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
> >>>>> people
> >>>>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the
> email
> >>>>> tone
> >>>>> positive even when you disagree.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova
> Apache'ers
> >>>>> (we
> >>>>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
> >>>>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
> >>>>> up.
> >>>>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
> >>>>> instance.
> >>>>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
> >>>>> collaboration
> >>>>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
> >>>>> but
> >>>>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
> >>>>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time
> (although
> >>>>> we
> >>>>> decided not to stick with it).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Why can we not use Github issues?
> >>>>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
> >>>>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that
> >>>>> hasn't happened yet.
> >>>>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
> >>>>> issue
> >>>>> trackers count as "data"?
> >>>>
> >>>> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse foundation
> >>>> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
> >>>> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org
> terms
> >>>> of use.
> >>>>
> >>>>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
> >>>>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
> >>>>> that's
> >>>>> meant for cross-project discussion.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
> >>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
> >>>>>>> why *I*
> >>>>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
> >>>>>>> Stack
> >>>>>>> Overflow survey).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
> >>>>>> tone
> >>>>>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a personal
> >>>>>> attack
> >>>>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
> >>>>>> only
> >>>>>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
> >>>>>> with me,
> >>>>>> because we're still here.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Joe
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ross
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
> >>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
> >>>>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> participation.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
> >>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
> >>>>>>> fight
> >>>>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
> >>>>>>> project, and
> >>>>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
> >>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
> >>>>>>>> propose
> >>>>>>>> changes that work.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation
> whose
> >>>>>> rules
> >>>>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that.
> >>>>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
> >>>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their
> >>>>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
> >>>>>> donated
> >>>>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
> >>>>>>> complained
> >>>>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
> >>>>>>> since
> >>>>>> we
> >>>>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
> >>>>>>> who
> >>>>>> feel
> >>>>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
> >>>>>>> convince
> >>>>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
> >>>>>>> since
> >>>>>> your
> >>>>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various
> parts
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
> >>>>>>> haven't
> >>>>>>> forked yet.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Joe
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ross
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >>>>>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
> >>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Joe,
> >>>>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while
> >>>>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Marcel,
> >>>>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you
> talk
> >>>>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
> >>>>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with
> the
> >>>>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in
> place
> >>>>>> like
> >>>>>>> I layout in my email?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> >>>>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
> >>>>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> >>>>>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
> >>>>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
> >>>>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
> >>>>>>>>> hate
> >>>>>>>> GitHub
> >>>>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough
> problems
> >>>>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to
> >>>>>>>>> dump JIRA
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
> >>>>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
> >>>>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
> >>>>>>>>>> Foundation,
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
> >>>>>>>>>> community
> >>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving
> >>>>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to
> >>>>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
> >>>>>>>>> thing
> >>>>>>>>> that I think we
> >>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
> >>>>>>>>> how
> >>>>>>>> these
> >>>>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
> >>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>> such
> >>>>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
> >>>>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem
> >>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
> >>>>>>>>>>> They
> >>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> >>>>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile
> web
> >>>>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
> >>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>> them
> >>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>> native :)
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> >>>>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> >>>>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
> >>>>>>>> details
> >>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> work
> >>>>>>>>>> done
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I am
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> only one.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
> >>>>>>>>>>>> good as
> >>>>>>>>>> native
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
> >>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> apps I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> work on!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com
> >>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> graphics
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>>>> reasons:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> years
> >>>>>>>>> ago.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Even
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> still
> >>>>>>>>> hang
> >>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
> >>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>>>> it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> recommended
> >>>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>> CSS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> my
> >>>>>>>> whole
> >>>>>>>>>> way
> >>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> it. I
> >>>>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>> making
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>>>>> iOS-style
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> users
> >>>>>>>>>>> expect
> >>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>> this.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> >>>>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> score
> >>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>> low
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> default
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Git
> >>>>>>>>>> Bash,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
> >>>>>>>>> no
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> full
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this and
> >>>>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> survey
> >>>>>>>>>>> results
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> >>>>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
> >>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
> >>>>>>>> nothing
> >>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> >>>>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> >>>>>>>>> communitcation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
> >>>>>>>>> special
> >>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
> >>>>>>>> which
> >>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>> :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>> happy?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> >>>>>>>>> applications
> >>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
> >>>>>>>> application
> >>>>>>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
> >>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
> >>>>>>>>>> both
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
> >>>>>>>>>> shitty
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>> reason,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
> >>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
> >>>>>>>>> isn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
> >>>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
> >>>>>>> ).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
> >>>>>>> **************
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>>>> answers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
> >>>>>>>>>> looking
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
> >>>>>>>>>> frustration
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> answer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
> >>>>>> apps
> >>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
> >>>>>> (learnability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
> >>>>>> articles,
> >>>>>>>>>> books)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
> >>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
Re: Github, again.
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
You said:
1. Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code) or worse
2. go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
neither of which is the *real* reason, although #1 is,
of course, a viable concern (disappear or start charging)
and #2 is a complete strawman.
> On Apr 10, 2015, at 11:16 AM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>
> I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
>>
>> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-
>> Foundation-tp5722483p5722847.html
>>
>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
>>
>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>>
>>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
>> (code).
>>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code)
>> or
>>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>>>
>>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
>> most
>>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
>>>>> but I
>>>>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
>>>>> (some
>>>>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
>>>>> anyways).
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
>>>>> constructive.
>>>>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the
>>>>> sake
>>>>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
>>>>> others
>>>>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
>>>>> negative towards.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another angle:
>>>>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
>>>>> views are
>>>>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
>>>>> make it
>>>>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just
>>>>> makes
>>>>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
>>>>> contribute to
>>>>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
>>>>> people
>>>>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the email
>>>>> tone
>>>>> positive even when you disagree.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova Apache'ers
>>>>> (we
>>>>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
>>>>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
>>>>> up.
>>>>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
>>>>> instance.
>>>>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
>>>>> collaboration
>>>>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
>>>>> but
>>>>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
>>>>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time (although
>>>>> we
>>>>> decided not to stick with it).
>>>>>
>>>>> Why can we not use Github issues?
>>>>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
>>>>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that
>>>>> hasn't happened yet.
>>>>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
>>>>> issue
>>>>> trackers count as "data"?
>>>>
>>>> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse foundation
>>>> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
>>>> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org terms
>>>> of use.
>>>>
>>>>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
>>>>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
>>>>> that's
>>>>> meant for cross-project discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
>>>>>>> why *I*
>>>>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
>>>>>>> Stack
>>>>>>> Overflow survey).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
>>>>>> tone
>>>>>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a personal
>>>>>> attack
>>>>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
>>>>>> only
>>>>>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
>>>>>> with me,
>>>>>> because we're still here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
>>>>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> participation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
>>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
>>>>>>> fight
>>>>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
>>>>>>> project, and
>>>>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
>>>>>>>> propose
>>>>>>>> changes that work.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose
>>>>>> rules
>>>>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that.
>>>>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their
>>>>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
>>>>>> donated
>>>>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
>>>>>>> complained
>>>>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
>>>>>>> since
>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>> feel
>>>>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
>>>>>>> convince
>>>>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
>>>>>>> since
>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
>>>>>>> haven't
>>>>>>> forked yet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
>>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while
>>>>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Marcel,
>>>>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk
>>>>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
>>>>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the
>>>>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place
>>>>>> like
>>>>>>> I layout in my email?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
>>>>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
>>>>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
>>>>>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
>>>>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
>>>>>>>>> hate
>>>>>>>> GitHub
>>>>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems
>>>>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to
>>>>>>>>> dump JIRA
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
>>>>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
>>>>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
>>>>>>>>>> Foundation,
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving
>>>>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to
>>>>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>> that I think we
>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
>>>>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
>>>>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
>>>>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web
>>>>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>> native :)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
>>>>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
>>>>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
>>>>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
>>>>>>>> details
>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>> done
>>>>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> only one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
>>>>>>>>>>>> good as
>>>>>>>>>> native
>>>>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> apps I
>>>>>>>>>>>> work on!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com
>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> graphics
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>>>> reasons:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
>>>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>> ago.
>>>>>>>>>>> Even
>>>>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
>>>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>> hang
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
>>>>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> recommended
>>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>>>> CSS
>>>>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> whole
>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> it. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> making
>>>>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> iOS-style
>>>>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
>>>>>>>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
>>>>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> score
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> low
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> default
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Git
>>>>>>>>>> Bash,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> full
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this and
>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> survey
>>>>>>>>>>> results
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
>>>>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
>>>>>>>> nothing
>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
>>>>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
>>>>>>>>> communitcation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
>>>>>>>>> special
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>> happy?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
>>>>>>>>> applications
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
>>>>>>>> application
>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
>>>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
>>>>>>>>>> shitty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> reason,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
>>>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
>>>>>>> ).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
>>>>>>> **************
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>>>> answers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>>>> looking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
>>>>>>>>>> frustration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> answer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
>>>>>> apps
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
>>>>>> (learnability |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
>>>>>> articles,
>>>>>>>>>> books)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
>>>>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
>>>>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>
>>
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Re: Github, again.
Posted by Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io>.
Jim, I'm not an antagonist. The reframing and scare quoting is not
appreciated. If I didn't see the value of the ASF I would not have proposed
incubation, pursued graduation compliance, and even stayed after hostile
members attack me personally on and off list intermittently for the past
three years and still running today!
I also do not appreciate being openly mocked by you and others externally
(yes it gets back to me!) but the good news is most people I respect
understand the issues with toxic communication and CoC was a good step in
fixing that.
At some point I'd love to see enforcement of it.
I'm not such a loser as to go to ApacheCon just to be a dick and indeed I
look forward to that pint and finding some level of reasonable discourse.
Lets end this thread. I look forward to talk f2f in Austin about
provenance, release automation, release distribution and whether or not it
is a good idea for board members should have a >1 term.
Respectfully,
Brian
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> Not at all. I simply state that, imo, your antagonism towards
> the ASF colors your ability to be "unbiased" in this discussion,
> even when people "correct" your mistakes. I don't see how
> statements such as "typically boogyman stuff" and "shot down of course"
> and "likelyhood of these scare scenarios" as helping to drive the
> conversation at all, since it strongly implies that the reasons
> and rationale behind them are baseless, "existential" things
> and not actual risks that people actually care about.
>
> You may feel that some of these wants are "acceptable risks"...
> Thankfully, there are those who understand those risks better
> and are working to help Cordova *avoid* them, rather than
> rush into them based on inaccurate data.
>
> I'm more than willing to discuss this further over a pint
> at ApacheCon.
>
> > On Apr 10, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >
> > At least the ad hominem attacks are veiled in public now. Very
> professional
> > non answer dodge there Jim!
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 9:09 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> If there is someone who has suggestions who actually understands
> >> the concerns and understands the risks (instead of either
> >> dismissing them out-of-hand or completely misrepresenting them)
> >> then I would assume that operations@ would be more than willing
> >> to listen.
> >>
> >>> On Apr 10, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> And actually, a colleague recalled we talked about on prem w github
> entp
> >>> too. Which totally addresses the issue. It was shot down of course
> >> despite
> >>> github offering to donate to apache.
> >>>
> >>> Now maybe this is possible?
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:16 AM Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
> >>>>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
> >>>>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
> >>>>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
> >>>>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Founda
> >>>>> tion-tp5722483p5722847.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
> >>>>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
> >>>>> (code).
> >>>>>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
> >> Code)
> >>>>> or
> >>>>>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting
> that
> >>>>> most
> >>>>>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right
> now,
> >>>>>>>> but I
> >>>>>>>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit
> later
> >>>>>>>> (some
> >>>>>>>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
> >>>>>>>> anyways).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
> >>>>>>>> constructive.
> >>>>>>>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for
> >> the
> >>>>>>>> sake
> >>>>>>>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
> >>>>>>>> others
> >>>>>>>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are
> being
> >>>>>>>> negative towards.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Another angle:
> >>>>>>>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
> >>>>>>>> views are
> >>>>>>>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the
> ASF"
> >>>>>>>> make it
> >>>>>>>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often
> >> just
> >>>>>>>> makes
> >>>>>>>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
> >>>>>>>> contribute to
> >>>>>>>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
> >>>>>>>> people
> >>>>>>>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the
> >> email
> >>>>>>>> tone
> >>>>>>>> positive even when you disagree.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova
> >> Apache'ers
> >>>>>>>> (we
> >>>>>>>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
> >>>>>>>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set
> one
> >>>>>>>> up.
> >>>>>>>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their
> shared
> >>>>>>>> instance.
> >>>>>>>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
> >>>>>>>> collaboration
> >>>>>>>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we
> complained,
> >>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
> >>>>>>>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time
> >> (although
> >>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>> decided not to stick with it).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Why can we not use Github issues?
> >>>>>>>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
> >>>>>>>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation
> >> that
> >>>>>>>> hasn't happened yet.
> >>>>>>>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
> >>>>>>>> issue
> >>>>>>>> trackers count as "data"?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse
> >> foundation
> >>>>>>> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow
> GitHub
> >>>>>>> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org
> >> terms
> >>>>>>> of use.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
> >>>>>>>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
> >>>>>>>> that's
> >>>>>>>> meant for cross-project discussion.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >>>>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree,
> it
> >>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to
> (and
> >>>>>>>>>> why *I*
> >>>>>>>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in
> the
> >>>>>>>>>> Stack
> >>>>>>>>>> Overflow survey).
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
> >>>>>>>>> tone
> >>>>>>>>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a
> >> personal
> >>>>>>>>> attack
> >>>>>>>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these
> comments
> >>>>>>>>> only
> >>>>>>>>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't
> agree
> >>>>>>>>> with me,
> >>>>>>>>> because we're still here.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Joe
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Ross
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
> >>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
> happy?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >>>>>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no
> >> additional
> >>>>>>>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive
> contributions
> >>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>> participation.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There
> are
> >>>>>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had
> to
> >>>>>>>>>> fight
> >>>>>>>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
> >>>>>>>>>> project, and
> >>>>>>>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually
> leave.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the
> way
> >>>>>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
> >>>>>>>>>>> propose
> >>>>>>>>>>> changes that work.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation
> >> whose
> >>>>>>>>> rules
> >>>>>>>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just
> >> that.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there
> are
> >>>>>>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but
> >> their
> >>>>>>>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that
> we
> >>>>>>>>> donated
> >>>>>>>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
> >>>>>>>>>> complained
> >>>>>>>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed
> us
> >>>>>>>>>> since
> >>>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the
> people
> >>>>>>>>>> who
> >>>>>>>>> feel
> >>>>>>>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
> >>>>>>>>>> convince
> >>>>>>>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
> >>>>>>>>>> since
> >>>>>>>>> your
> >>>>>>>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various
> >> parts
> >>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that
> we
> >>>>>>>>>> haven't
> >>>>>>>>>> forked yet.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Joe
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Ross
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
> >>>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
> happy?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Joe,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want,
> >> while
> >>>>>>>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Marcel,
> >>>>>>>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you
> >> talk
> >>>>>>>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
> >>>>>>>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with
> >> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in
> >> place
> >>>>>>>>> like
> >>>>>>>>>> I layout in my email?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com
> >
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to
> create
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
> >>>>>>>>>>>> hate
> >>>>>>>>>>> GitHub
> >>>>>>>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough
> >> problems
> >>>>>>>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love
> >> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> dump JIRA
> >>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the
> Apache
> >>>>>>>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
> >>>>>>>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache
> >> neckbeard.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Foundation,
> >>>>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> community
> >>>>>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us
> >> leaving
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed
> >> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
> >>>>>>>>>>>> thing
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that I think we
> >>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies
> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> how
> >>>>>>>>>>> these
> >>>>>>>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF
> cared
> >>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>> such
> >>>>>>>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more
> clearly.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The
> >> problem
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand
> this.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> They
> >>>>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile
> >> web
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and
> most
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>> them
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> native :)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all
> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> details
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of
> >> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> done
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't
> >> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only one.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> native
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to
> do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> apps I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work on!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <
> >> Tyler@drumpants.com
> >>>>>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> graphics
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> reasons:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ago.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Even
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still
> >>>>>>>>>>>> hang
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
> >>>>>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recommended
> >>>>>>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CSS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
> >>>>>>>>>>> whole
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> way
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better
> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>> it. I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> making
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> iOS-style
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that
> Android
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> expect
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> this.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> score
> >>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> low
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users
> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> default
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely
> unconventional -
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Git
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bash,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> no
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> full
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> survey
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> results
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> >>>>>>>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
> >>>>>>>>>>> nothing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> >>>>>>>>>>>> communitcation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if
> anything
> >>>>>>>>>>>> special
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a
> problem.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS
> frameworks/libs
> >>>>>>>>>>> which
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>> :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>>>>> happy?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> >>>>>>>>>>>> applications
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
> >>>>>>>>>>> application
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
> >>>>>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> both
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> shitty
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development
> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> reason,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
> >>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
> >>>>>>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
> >>>>>>>>>> ).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
> >>>>>>>>>> **************
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> answers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> looking
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> frustration
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> answer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
> >>>>>>>>> apps
> >>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
> >>>>>>>>> (learnability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
> >>>>>>>>> articles,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> books)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ---------
> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
Re: Github, again.
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
Not at all. I simply state that, imo, your antagonism towards
the ASF colors your ability to be "unbiased" in this discussion,
even when people "correct" your mistakes. I don't see how
statements such as "typically boogyman stuff" and "shot down of course"
and "likelyhood of these scare scenarios" as helping to drive the
conversation at all, since it strongly implies that the reasons
and rationale behind them are baseless, "existential" things
and not actual risks that people actually care about.
You may feel that some of these wants are "acceptable risks"...
Thankfully, there are those who understand those risks better
and are working to help Cordova *avoid* them, rather than
rush into them based on inaccurate data.
I'm more than willing to discuss this further over a pint
at ApacheCon.
> On Apr 10, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>
> At least the ad hominem attacks are veiled in public now. Very professional
> non answer dodge there Jim!
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 9:09 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
>> If there is someone who has suggestions who actually understands
>> the concerns and understands the risks (instead of either
>> dismissing them out-of-hand or completely misrepresenting them)
>> then I would assume that operations@ would be more than willing
>> to listen.
>>
>>> On Apr 10, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>>
>>> And actually, a colleague recalled we talked about on prem w github entp
>>> too. Which totally addresses the issue. It was shot down of course
>> despite
>>> github offering to donate to apache.
>>>
>>> Now maybe this is possible?
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:16 AM Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
>>>>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
>>>>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
>>>>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
>>>>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Founda
>>>>> tion-tp5722483p5722847.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
>>>>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
>>>>> (code).
>>>>>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
>> Code)
>>>>> or
>>>>>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
>>>>> most
>>>>>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
>>>>>>>> but I
>>>>>>>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
>>>>>>>> (some
>>>>>>>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
>>>>>>>> anyways).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
>>>>>>>> constructive.
>>>>>>>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for
>> the
>>>>>>>> sake
>>>>>>>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
>>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
>>>>>>>> negative towards.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Another angle:
>>>>>>>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
>>>>>>>> views are
>>>>>>>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
>>>>>>>> make it
>>>>>>>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often
>> just
>>>>>>>> makes
>>>>>>>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
>>>>>>>> contribute to
>>>>>>>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the
>> email
>>>>>>>> tone
>>>>>>>> positive even when you disagree.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova
>> Apache'ers
>>>>>>>> (we
>>>>>>>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
>>>>>>>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
>>>>>>>> up.
>>>>>>>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
>>>>>>>> instance.
>>>>>>>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
>>>>>>>> collaboration
>>>>>>>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
>>>>>>>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time
>> (although
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> decided not to stick with it).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why can we not use Github issues?
>>>>>>>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
>>>>>>>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation
>> that
>>>>>>>> hasn't happened yet.
>>>>>>>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
>>>>>>>> issue
>>>>>>>> trackers count as "data"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse
>> foundation
>>>>>>> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
>>>>>>> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org
>> terms
>>>>>>> of use.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
>>>>>>>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>> meant for cross-project discussion.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>>>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
>>>>>>>>>> why *I*
>>>>>>>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
>>>>>>>>>> Stack
>>>>>>>>>> Overflow survey).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
>>>>>>>>> tone
>>>>>>>>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a
>> personal
>>>>>>>>> attack
>>>>>>>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
>>>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
>>>>>>>>> with me,
>>>>>>>>> because we're still here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
>>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>>>>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no
>> additional
>>>>>>>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> participation.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
>>>>>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
>>>>>>>>>> fight
>>>>>>>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
>>>>>>>>>> project, and
>>>>>>>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
>>>>>>>>>>> propose
>>>>>>>>>>> changes that work.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation
>> whose
>>>>>>>>> rules
>>>>>>>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just
>> that.
>>>>>>>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
>>>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but
>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
>>>>>>>>> donated
>>>>>>>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
>>>>>>>>>> complained
>>>>>>>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
>>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>> feel
>>>>>>>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
>>>>>>>>>> convince
>>>>>>>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
>>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various
>> parts
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
>>>>>>>>>> haven't
>>>>>>>>>> forked yet.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want,
>> while
>>>>>>>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Marcel,
>>>>>>>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you
>> talk
>>>>>>>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
>>>>>>>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with
>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in
>> place
>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>>> I layout in my email?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
>>>>>>>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
>>>>>>>>>>>> hate
>>>>>>>>>>> GitHub
>>>>>>>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough
>> problems
>>>>>>>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love
>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> dump JIRA
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
>>>>>>>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache
>> neckbeard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Foundation,
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us
>> leaving
>>>>>>>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed
>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
>>>>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>>>>> that I think we
>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
>>>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The
>> problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile
>> web
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> native :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
>>>>>>>>>>> details
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of
>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>> done
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't
>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> native
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apps I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work on!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <
>> Tyler@drumpants.com
>>>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> graphics
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasons:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>>>> ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>>>> hang
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recommended
>>>>>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CSS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>> whole
>>>>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> it. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> making
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> iOS-style
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> score
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> low
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> default
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Git
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bash,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> full
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this and
>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> survey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> results
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
>>>>>>>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
>>>>>>>>>>> nothing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
>>>>>>>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
>>>>>>>>>>>> communitcation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
>>>>>>>>>>>> special
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>>>>> happy?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
>>>>>>>>>>>> applications
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
>>>>>>>>>>> application
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> shitty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
>>>>>>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
>>>>>>>>>> ).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
>>>>>>>>>> **************
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>>>>>>> answers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>>>>>>> looking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
>>>>>>>>>>>>> frustration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
>>>>>>>>> apps
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
>>>>>>>>> (learnability |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
>>>>>>>>> articles,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> books)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>
>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
Re: Github, again.
Posted by Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io>.
At least the ad hominem attacks are veiled in public now. Very professional
non answer dodge there Jim!
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 9:09 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> If there is someone who has suggestions who actually understands
> the concerns and understands the risks (instead of either
> dismissing them out-of-hand or completely misrepresenting them)
> then I would assume that operations@ would be more than willing
> to listen.
>
> > On Apr 10, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >
> > And actually, a colleague recalled we talked about on prem w github entp
> > too. Which totally addresses the issue. It was shot down of course
> despite
> > github offering to donate to apache.
> >
> > Now maybe this is possible?
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:16 AM Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >
> >> I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
> >>
> >> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
> >>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
> >>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
> >>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
> >>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
> >>>
> >>> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Founda
> >>> tion-tp5722483p5722847.html
> >>>
> >>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
> >>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
> >>>
> >>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
> >>> (code).
> >>>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
> Code)
> >>> or
> >>>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
> >>> most
> >>>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
> >>>>>> but I
> >>>>>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
> >>>>>> (some
> >>>>>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
> >>>>>> anyways).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
> >>>>>> constructive.
> >>>>>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for
> the
> >>>>>> sake
> >>>>>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
> >>>>>> others
> >>>>>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
> >>>>>> negative towards.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Another angle:
> >>>>>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
> >>>>>> views are
> >>>>>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
> >>>>>> make it
> >>>>>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often
> just
> >>>>>> makes
> >>>>>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
> >>>>>> contribute to
> >>>>>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
> >>>>>> people
> >>>>>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the
> email
> >>>>>> tone
> >>>>>> positive even when you disagree.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova
> Apache'ers
> >>>>>> (we
> >>>>>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
> >>>>>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
> >>>>>> up.
> >>>>>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
> >>>>>> instance.
> >>>>>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
> >>>>>> collaboration
> >>>>>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
> >>>>>> but
> >>>>>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
> >>>>>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time
> (although
> >>>>>> we
> >>>>>> decided not to stick with it).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Why can we not use Github issues?
> >>>>>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
> >>>>>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation
> that
> >>>>>> hasn't happened yet.
> >>>>>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
> >>>>>> issue
> >>>>>> trackers count as "data"?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse
> foundation
> >>>>> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
> >>>>> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org
> terms
> >>>>> of use.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
> >>>>>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
> >>>>>> that's
> >>>>>> meant for cross-project discussion.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
> >>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
> >>>>>>>> why *I*
> >>>>>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
> >>>>>>>> Stack
> >>>>>>>> Overflow survey).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
> >>>>>>> tone
> >>>>>>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a
> personal
> >>>>>>> attack
> >>>>>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
> >>>>>>> only
> >>>>>>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
> >>>>>>> with me,
> >>>>>>> because we're still here.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Joe
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ross
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
> >>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >>>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no
> additional
> >>>>>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> participation.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
> >>>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
> >>>>>>>> fight
> >>>>>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
> >>>>>>>> project, and
> >>>>>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
> >>>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
> >>>>>>>>> propose
> >>>>>>>>> changes that work.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation
> whose
> >>>>>>> rules
> >>>>>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just
> that.
> >>>>>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
> >>>>>>>>> some
> >>>>>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but
> their
> >>>>>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
> >>>>>>> donated
> >>>>>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
> >>>>>>>> complained
> >>>>>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
> >>>>>>>> since
> >>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
> >>>>>>>> who
> >>>>>>> feel
> >>>>>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
> >>>>>>>> convince
> >>>>>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
> >>>>>>>> since
> >>>>>>> your
> >>>>>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various
> parts
> >>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
> >>>>>>>> haven't
> >>>>>>>> forked yet.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Joe
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Ross
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >>>>>>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
> >>>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Joe,
> >>>>>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want,
> while
> >>>>>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Marcel,
> >>>>>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you
> talk
> >>>>>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
> >>>>>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with
> the
> >>>>>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in
> place
> >>>>>>> like
> >>>>>>>> I layout in my email?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> >>>>>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
> >>>>>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> >>>>>>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
> >>>>>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
> >>>>>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
> >>>>>>>>>> hate
> >>>>>>>>> GitHub
> >>>>>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough
> problems
> >>>>>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love
> to
> >>>>>>>>>> dump JIRA
> >>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
> >>>>>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
> >>>>>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache
> neckbeard.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
> >>>>>>>>>>> Foundation,
> >>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
> >>>>>>>>>>> community
> >>>>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us
> leaving
> >>>>>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed
> to
> >>>>>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
> >>>>>>>>>> thing
> >>>>>>>>>> that I think we
> >>>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
> >>>>>>>>>> how
> >>>>>>>>> these
> >>>>>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
> >>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>> such
> >>>>>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
> >>>>>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The
> problem
> >>>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> They
> >>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile
> web
> >>>>>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
> >>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> them
> >>>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>> native :)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> >>>>>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> >>>>>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
> >>>>>>>>> details
> >>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of
> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> work
> >>>>>>>>>>> done
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't
> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> only one.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> good as
> >>>>>>>>>>> native
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> apps I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> work on!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <
> Tyler@drumpants.com
> >>>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> graphics
> >>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>>>>> reasons:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> years
> >>>>>>>>>> ago.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Even
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> still
> >>>>>>>>>> hang
> >>>>>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
> >>>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>>>>> it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> recommended
> >>>>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>>> CSS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
> >>>>>>>>> whole
> >>>>>>>>>>> way
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>> it. I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> making
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>>>>>> iOS-style
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> users
> >>>>>>>>>>>> expect
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>> this.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> score
> >>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>> low
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> default
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Git
> >>>>>>>>>>> Bash,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
> >>>>>>>>>> no
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> full
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this and
> >>>>>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> survey
> >>>>>>>>>>>> results
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> >>>>>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
> >>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
> >>>>>>>>> nothing
> >>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> >>>>>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> >>>>>>>>>> communitcation
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
> >>>>>>>>>> special
> >>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
> >>>>>>>>> which
> >>>>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>> :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>>> happy?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> >>>>>>>>>> applications
> >>>>>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
> >>>>>>>>> application
> >>>>>>>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
> >>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
> >>>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
> >>>>>>>>>>> both
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
> >>>>>>>>>>> shitty
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>> reason,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
> >>>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
> >>>>>>>>>> isn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
> >>>>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
> >>>>>>>> ).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
> >>>>>>>> **************
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>>>>> answers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
> >>>>>>>>>>> looking
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
> >>>>>>>>>>> frustration
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> answer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
> >>>>>>> apps
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
> >>>>>>> (learnability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
> >>>>>>> articles,
> >>>>>>>>>>> books)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>>
> >>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
Re: Github, again.
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
If there is someone who has suggestions who actually understands
the concerns and understands the risks (instead of either
dismissing them out-of-hand or completely misrepresenting them)
then I would assume that operations@ would be more than willing
to listen.
> On Apr 10, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>
> And actually, a colleague recalled we talked about on prem w github entp
> too. Which totally addresses the issue. It was shot down of course despite
> github offering to donate to apache.
>
> Now maybe this is possible?
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:16 AM Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>
>> I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
>>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
>>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
>>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
>>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
>>>
>>> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Founda
>>> tion-tp5722483p5722847.html
>>>
>>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
>>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
>>>
>>>> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
>>> (code).
>>>> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code)
>>> or
>>>> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>>>>
>>>> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
>>> most
>>>> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
>>>>>> but I
>>>>>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
>>>>>> (some
>>>>>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
>>>>>> anyways).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
>>>>>> constructive.
>>>>>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the
>>>>>> sake
>>>>>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
>>>>>> others
>>>>>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
>>>>>> negative towards.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another angle:
>>>>>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
>>>>>> views are
>>>>>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
>>>>>> make it
>>>>>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just
>>>>>> makes
>>>>>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
>>>>>> contribute to
>>>>>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the email
>>>>>> tone
>>>>>> positive even when you disagree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova Apache'ers
>>>>>> (we
>>>>>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
>>>>>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
>>>>>> up.
>>>>>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
>>>>>> instance.
>>>>>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
>>>>>> collaboration
>>>>>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
>>>>>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time (although
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> decided not to stick with it).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why can we not use Github issues?
>>>>>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
>>>>>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that
>>>>>> hasn't happened yet.
>>>>>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
>>>>>> issue
>>>>>> trackers count as "data"?
>>>>>
>>>>> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse foundation
>>>>> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
>>>>> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org terms
>>>>> of use.
>>>>>
>>>>>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
>>>>>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
>>>>>> that's
>>>>>> meant for cross-project discussion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
>>>>>>>> why *I*
>>>>>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
>>>>>>>> Stack
>>>>>>>> Overflow survey).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
>>>>>>> tone
>>>>>>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a personal
>>>>>>> attack
>>>>>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
>>>>>>> with me,
>>>>>>> because we're still here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
>>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>>>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
>>>>>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> participation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
>>>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
>>>>>>>> fight
>>>>>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
>>>>>>>> project, and
>>>>>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
>>>>>>>>> propose
>>>>>>>>> changes that work.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose
>>>>>>> rules
>>>>>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that.
>>>>>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their
>>>>>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
>>>>>>> donated
>>>>>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
>>>>>>>> complained
>>>>>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>> feel
>>>>>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
>>>>>>>> convince
>>>>>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
>>>>>>>> haven't
>>>>>>>> forked yet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while
>>>>>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Marcel,
>>>>>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk
>>>>>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
>>>>>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the
>>>>>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>> I layout in my email?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
>>>>>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
>>>>>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
>>>>>>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
>>>>>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
>>>>>>>>>> hate
>>>>>>>>> GitHub
>>>>>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems
>>>>>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to
>>>>>>>>>> dump JIRA
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
>>>>>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
>>>>>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
>>>>>>>>>>> Foundation,
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
>>>>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving
>>>>>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to
>>>>>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
>>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>>> that I think we
>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
>>>>>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem
>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
>>>>>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
>>>>>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web
>>>>>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> native :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
>>>>>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
>>>>>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
>>>>>>>>> details
>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>> done
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> only one.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> good as
>>>>>>>>>>> native
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> apps I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> work on!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com
>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> graphics
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>>>>> reasons:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>> ago.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>>>> hang
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recommended
>>>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>>>>> CSS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>> whole
>>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> it. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> making
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> iOS-style
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> score
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> low
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> default
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Git
>>>>>>>>>>> Bash,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> full
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this and
>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> survey
>>>>>>>>>>>> results
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
>>>>>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
>>>>>>>>> nothing
>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
>>>>>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
>>>>>>>>>> communitcation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
>>>>>>>>>> special
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>>> happy?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
>>>>>>>>>> applications
>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
>>>>>>>>> application
>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
>>>>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
>>>>>>>>>>> shitty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> reason,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
>>>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
>>>>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
>>>>>>>> ).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
>>>>>>>> **************
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>>>>> answers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>>>>> looking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
>>>>>>>>>>> frustration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> answer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
>>>>>>> apps
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
>>>>>>> (learnability |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
>>>>>>> articles,
>>>>>>>>>>> books)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
>>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>>
>>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
RE: Github, again.
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
Those conversations have been had. GitHub won't open the logs (and we can't expect them to given the privacy implications). Feel free to discuss again if you like - things may have changed.
GitHub enterprise is not free. My comment about cost was from memory, I've asked David to remind me of the details.
Ross
-----Original Message-----
From: brian.leroux@gmail.com [mailto:brian.leroux@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Brian LeRoux
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 12:17 PM
To: dev@cordova.apache.org
Subject: Re: Github, again.
being donated my guess the cost was installation and maintenance? anyhow, now that the goal posts have been moved to logs I'm fairly certain they'd open those to us as well (I'll find out)
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> Yes we have discussed this. The cost is prohibitive. David Nalley as
> VP Infra has the details.
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Brian LeRoux<ma...@brian.io>
> Sent: 4/10/2015 8:53 AM
> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Github, again.
>
> And actually, a colleague recalled we talked about on prem w github
> entp too. Which totally addresses the issue. It was shot down of
> course despite github offering to donate to apache.
>
> Now maybe this is possible?
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:16 AM Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>
> > I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to the
> >> ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up several
> >> times, and answered several times (as I was almost sure it was done
> >> here)... In any case, the following is a typical response to why
> >> Github cannot be canon:
> >>
> >>
> >> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Founda
> >> tion-tp5722483p5722847.html
> >>
> >> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand this
> >> issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
> >>
> >> > On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the
> >> > IP
> >> (code).
> >> > Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
> Code)
> >> or
> >> > worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
> >> >
> >> > I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting
> >> > that
> >> most
> >> > brands appear to feel this risk is low.
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan
> >> > <go...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right
> >> >>> now, but I will promise to post back with some formulated
> >> >>> thoughts a bit later (some of this I'm prepping for my
> >> >>> ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it anyways).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
> >> >>> constructive.
> >> >>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not
> >> >>> for
> the
> >> >>> sake
> >> >>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things
> >> >>> about others almost always ends up making you look worse than
> >> >>> those you are being negative towards.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Another angle:
> >> >>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though
> >> >>> your views are your own (although statements like "Or we could
> >> >>> just leave the ASF"
> >> >>> make it
> >> >>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone
> >> >>> often
> just
> >> >>> makes
> >> >>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
> >> >>> contribute to a project that is full of smileys and
> >> >>> encouragement, or one where people are negative and abrasive?
> >> >>> It really goes a long way to keep the
> email
> >> >>> tone
> >> >>> positive even when you disagree.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova
> Apache'ers
> >> >>> (we
> >> >>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
> >> >>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us
> >> >>> set one up.
> >> >>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their
> >> >>> shared instance.
> >> >>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
> >> >>> collaboration between Infra and other projects that made it
> >> >>> happen (we complained, but didn't do the work to make it
> >> >>> possible).
> >> >>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time
> (although
> >> >>> we
> >> >>> decided not to stick with it).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Why can we not use Github issues?
> >> >>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
> >> >>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a
> >> >>> conversation
> that
> >> >>> hasn't happened yet.
> >> >>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but
> >> >>> do issue trackers count as "data"?
> >> >>
> >> >> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse
> foundation
> >> >> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow
> >> >> GitHub as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the
> >> >> Eclipse.org
> terms
> >> >> of use.
> >> >>
> >> >>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
> >> >>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start,
> >> >>> since that's meant for cross-project discussion.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >> >>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you
> >> >>>>> disagree, it is offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I
> >> >>>>> am referring to (and why *I* dread ever posting to this list,
> >> >>>>> shame that question wasn't in the Stack Overflow survey).
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on
> >> >>>> the tone you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to
> >> >>>> make a
> personal
> >> >>>> attack
> >> >>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these
> >> >>>> comments only reflect my own personal views. It's clear that
> >> >>>> people don't agree with me, because we're still here.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Joe
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Ross
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
> >> >>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >> >>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >> >>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no
> additional
> >> >>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive
> >> >>>>>> contributions and participation.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times.
> >> >>>>> There are
> >> >>>> clearly
> >> >>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've
> >> >>>>> had to fight the ASF every single time we wanted to do
> >> >>>>> anything with this project, and I'm expecting us to fight the
> >> >>>>> ASF again until we eventually leave.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are
> >> >>>>>> the way they are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work
> >> >>>>>> with people to propose changes that work.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different
> >> >>>>> foundation
> whose
> >> >>>> rules
> >> >>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just
> that.
> >> >>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there
> >> >>>>>> are some individuals who certainly do not fit into this
> >> >>>>>> category, but
> their
> >> >>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret
> >> >>>>> that we
> >> >>>> donated
> >> >>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
> >> >>>>> complained about so many times by our community members who
> >> >>>>> have followed us since
> >> >>>> we
> >> >>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the
> >> >>>>> people who
> >> >>>> feel
> >> >>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going
> >> >>>>> to convince everyone our community that the ASF is a good
> >> >>>>> thing, especially since
> >> >>>> your
> >> >>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking
> >> >>>>> various
> parts
> >> >>>>> of
> >> >>>> the
> >> >>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle
> >> >>>>> that we haven't forked yet.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Joe
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Ross
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >> >>>>>> ________________________________
> >> >>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
> >> >>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Joe,
> >> >>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want,
> while
> >> >>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Marcel,
> >> >>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can
> >> >>>>>> you
> talk
> >> >>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million
> >> >>>>>> cordova developers to see if what is the possibility to use
> >> >>>>>> github with
> the
> >> >>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving
> >> >>>>>> in
> place
> >> >>>> like
> >> >>>>> I layout in my email?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser
> >> >>>>>> <bo...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
> >> >>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> >> >>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
> >> >>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred
> >> >>>>>>>> way Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks
> >> >>>>>>>> to create corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we
> >> >>>>>>>> already doing this with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at
> >> >>>>>>> Apache hate
> >> >>>>>> GitHub
> >> >>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough
> problems
> >> >>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would
> >> >>>>>>> love
> to
> >> >>>>>>> dump JIRA
> >> >>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the
> >> >>>>>>> Apache infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made
> >> >>>>>>> it less accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an
> >> >>>>>>> Apache
> neckbeard.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
> >> >>>>>>>> Foundation,
> >> >>>>>> to
> >> >>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
> >> >>>>>>>> community
> >> >>>>>> they
> >> >>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us
> leaving
> >> >>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be
> >> >>>>>>> allowed
> to
> >> >>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed.
> >> >>>>>>> One thing that I think we
> >> >>>>>> don't
> >> >>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF
> >> >>>>>>> policies and how
> >> >>>>>> these
> >> >>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF
> >> >>>>>>> cared about
> >> >>>>>> such
> >> >>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
> >> >>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The
> problem
> >> >>>>>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>> clearly
> >> >>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
> >> >>>>>>>>> They
> >> >>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> >> >>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the
> >> >>>>>>>>> mobile
> web
> >> >>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and
> >> >>>>>>>>> most of
> >> >>>>>> them
> >> >>>>>>>> are
> >> >>>>>>>>> native :)
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
> >> >>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> >> >>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> >> >>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >> >>>>>>>>>> :
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all
> >> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>> details
> >> >>>>>>>>> about
> >> >>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea
> >> >>>>>>>>>> of
> the
> >> >>>>>>>>>> work
> >> >>>>>>>> done
> >> >>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't
> think
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I am
> >> >>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>>>> only one.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be
> >> >>>>>>>>>> as good as
> >> >>>>>>>> native
> >> >>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try
> >> >>>>>>>>>> to do for
> >> >>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>>> apps I
> >> >>>>>>>>>> work on!
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <
> Tyler@drumpants.com
> >> >>>>> :
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> graphics
> >> >>>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >> >>>>>>>> reasons:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> 3 years
> >> >>>>>>> ago.
> >> >>>>>>>>> Even
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> apps still
> >> >>>>>>> hang
> >> >>>>>>>> in
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> smooth, buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> on modern WebKit views,
> >> >>>>>> but
> >> >>>>>>>>> it's
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> recommended
> >> >>>>>>> using
> >> >>>>>>>>> CSS
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> changed my
> >> >>>>>> whole
> >> >>>>>>>> way
> >> >>>>>>>>>> of
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> because of
> >> >>>>>>> it. I
> >> >>>>>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> like that
> >> >>>>>> for
> >> >>>>>>>>>> making
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> their
> >> >>>>>>>> iOS-style
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Android users
> >> >>>>>>>>> expect
> >> >>>>>>>>>> a
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> do about
> >> >>>>>>>> this.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> >> >>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> the score
> >> >>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>> low
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> and the
> >> >>>>>>>> default
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> unconventional - Git
> >> >>>>>>>> Bash,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
> >> >>>>>>> no
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> full
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> improving this and
> >> >>>>>>> as
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> those survey
> >> >>>>>>>>> results
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> >> >>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>> developers
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> using
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> knowing
> >> >>>>>> nothing
> >> >>>>>>>>> about
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> >> >>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> >> >>>>>>> communitcation
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> anything
> >> >>>>>>> special
> >> >>>>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> frameworks/libs
> >> >>>>>> which
> >> >>>>>>>> are
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of that
> >> >>>>>> :-)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> power of the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >> >>>>>>> happy?
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> >> >>>>>>> applications
> >> >>>>>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
> >> >>>>>> application
> >> >>>>>>>>> from
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
> >> >>>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>>>>> if
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
> >> >>>>>>> because
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> that's
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
> >> >>>>>>>> both
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> those
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
> >> >>>>>>>> shitty
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> for a
> >> >>>>>>>> reason,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> and at
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
> >> >>>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >> >>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>> we
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >> >>>>>> are
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
> >> >>>>>>> isn't
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Survey (
> >> >>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
> >> >>>>> ).
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
> >> >>>>> **************
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tech but
> >> >>>>>>> have
> >> >>>>>>>>> not
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >> >>>>>>>> answers.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
> >> >>>>>>>> looking
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> express
> >> >>>>>>>> frustration
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
> >> >>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>> answer
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
> >> >>>> apps
> >> >>>>> in
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
> >> >>>> (learnability |
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
> >> >>>> articles,
> >> >>>>>>>> books)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
> >> >>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >> >>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >> >>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>
> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> ----- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
Re: Github, again.
Posted by Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io>.
being donated my guess the cost was installation and maintenance? anyhow,
now that the goal posts have been moved to logs I'm fairly certain they'd
open those to us as well (I'll find out)
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 9:02 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> Yes we have discussed this. The cost is prohibitive. David Nalley as VP
> Infra has the details.
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Brian LeRoux<ma...@brian.io>
> Sent: 4/10/2015 8:53 AM
> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Github, again.
>
> And actually, a colleague recalled we talked about on prem w github entp
> too. Which totally addresses the issue. It was shot down of course despite
> github offering to donate to apache.
>
> Now maybe this is possible?
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:16 AM Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>
> > I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
> >> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
> >> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
> >> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
> >> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
> >>
> >> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Founda
> >> tion-tp5722483p5722847.html
> >>
> >> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
> >> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
> >>
> >> > On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
> >> (code).
> >> > Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google
> Code)
> >> or
> >> > worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
> >> >
> >> > I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
> >> most
> >> > brands appear to feel this risk is low.
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
> >> >>> but I
> >> >>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
> >> >>> (some
> >> >>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
> >> >>> anyways).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
> >> >>> constructive.
> >> >>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for
> the
> >> >>> sake
> >> >>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
> >> >>> others
> >> >>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
> >> >>> negative towards.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Another angle:
> >> >>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
> >> >>> views are
> >> >>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
> >> >>> make it
> >> >>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often
> just
> >> >>> makes
> >> >>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
> >> >>> contribute to
> >> >>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
> >> >>> people
> >> >>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the
> email
> >> >>> tone
> >> >>> positive even when you disagree.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova
> Apache'ers
> >> >>> (we
> >> >>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
> >> >>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
> >> >>> up.
> >> >>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
> >> >>> instance.
> >> >>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
> >> >>> collaboration
> >> >>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
> >> >>> but
> >> >>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
> >> >>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time
> (although
> >> >>> we
> >> >>> decided not to stick with it).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Why can we not use Github issues?
> >> >>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
> >> >>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation
> that
> >> >>> hasn't happened yet.
> >> >>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
> >> >>> issue
> >> >>> trackers count as "data"?
> >> >>
> >> >> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse
> foundation
> >> >> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
> >> >> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org
> terms
> >> >> of use.
> >> >>
> >> >>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
> >> >>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
> >> >>> that's
> >> >>> meant for cross-project discussion.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >> >>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
> >> >>>>> is
> >> >>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
> >> >>>>> why *I*
> >> >>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
> >> >>>>> Stack
> >> >>>>> Overflow survey).
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
> >> >>>> tone
> >> >>>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a
> personal
> >> >>>> attack
> >> >>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
> >> >>>> only
> >> >>>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
> >> >>>> with me,
> >> >>>> because we're still here.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Joe
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Ross
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
> >> >>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >> >>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >> >>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no
> additional
> >> >>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
> >> >>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>> participation.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
> >> >>>> clearly
> >> >>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
> >> >>>>> fight
> >> >>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
> >> >>>>> project, and
> >> >>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
> >> >>>>>> they
> >> >>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
> >> >>>>>> propose
> >> >>>>>> changes that work.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation
> whose
> >> >>>> rules
> >> >>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just
> that.
> >> >>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
> >> >>>>>> some
> >> >>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but
> their
> >> >>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
> >> >>>> donated
> >> >>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
> >> >>>>> complained
> >> >>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
> >> >>>>> since
> >> >>>> we
> >> >>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
> >> >>>>> who
> >> >>>> feel
> >> >>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
> >> >>>>> convince
> >> >>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
> >> >>>>> since
> >> >>>> your
> >> >>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various
> parts
> >> >>>>> of
> >> >>>> the
> >> >>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
> >> >>>>> haven't
> >> >>>>> forked yet.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Joe
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Ross
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >> >>>>>> ________________________________
> >> >>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
> >> >>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Joe,
> >> >>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want,
> while
> >> >>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> Marcel,
> >> >>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you
> talk
> >> >>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
> >> >>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with
> the
> >> >>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in
> place
> >> >>>> like
> >> >>>>> I layout in my email?
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
> >> >>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> >> >>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
> >> >>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> >> >>>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
> >> >>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
> >> >>>>>>>> this
> >> >>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
> >> >>>>>>> hate
> >> >>>>>> GitHub
> >> >>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough
> problems
> >> >>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love
> to
> >> >>>>>>> dump JIRA
> >> >>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
> >> >>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
> >> >>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache
> neckbeard.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
> >> >>>>>>>> Foundation,
> >> >>>>>> to
> >> >>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
> >> >>>>>>>> community
> >> >>>>>> they
> >> >>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us
> leaving
> >> >>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed
> to
> >> >>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
> >> >>>>>>> thing
> >> >>>>>>> that I think we
> >> >>>>>> don't
> >> >>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
> >> >>>>>>> how
> >> >>>>>> these
> >> >>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
> >> >>>>>>> about
> >> >>>>>> such
> >> >>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
> >> >>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The
> problem
> >> >>>>>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>> clearly
> >> >>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
> >> >>>>>>>>> They
> >> >>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> >> >>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile
> web
> >> >>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
> >> >>>>>>>>> of
> >> >>>>>> them
> >> >>>>>>>> are
> >> >>>>>>>>> native :)
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
> >> >>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> >> >>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> >> >>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >> >>>>>>>>>> :
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
> >> >>>>>> details
> >> >>>>>>>>> about
> >> >>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of
> the
> >> >>>>>>>>>> work
> >> >>>>>>>> done
> >> >>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't
> think
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I am
> >> >>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>>>> only one.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
> >> >>>>>>>>>> good as
> >> >>>>>>>> native
> >> >>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
> >> >>>>>>>>>> for
> >> >>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>>> apps I
> >> >>>>>>>>>> work on!
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <
> Tyler@drumpants.com
> >> >>>>> :
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> graphics
> >> >>>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >> >>>>>>>> reasons:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> years
> >> >>>>>>> ago.
> >> >>>>>>>>> Even
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> still
> >> >>>>>>> hang
> >> >>>>>>>> in
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
> >> >>>>>> but
> >> >>>>>>>>> it's
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> recommended
> >> >>>>>>> using
> >> >>>>>>>>> CSS
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> my
> >> >>>>>> whole
> >> >>>>>>>> way
> >> >>>>>>>>>> of
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> of
> >> >>>>>>> it. I
> >> >>>>>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> that
> >> >>>>>> for
> >> >>>>>>>>>> making
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> their
> >> >>>>>>>> iOS-style
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> users
> >> >>>>>>>>> expect
> >> >>>>>>>>>> a
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> about
> >> >>>>>>>> this.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> >> >>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> score
> >> >>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>> low
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>> default
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Git
> >> >>>>>>>> Bash,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
> >> >>>>>>> no
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> full
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> this and
> >> >>>>>>> as
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> survey
> >> >>>>>>>>> results
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> >> >>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
> >> >>>>>>> developers
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> using
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
> >> >>>>>> nothing
> >> >>>>>>>>> about
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> >> >>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> >> >>>>>>> communitcation
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
> >> >>>>>>> special
> >> >>>>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
> >> >>>>>> which
> >> >>>>>>>> are
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >> >>>>>> :-)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >> >>>>>>> happy?
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> >> >>>>>>> applications
> >> >>>>>>>>> is
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
> >> >>>>>> application
> >> >>>>>>>>> from
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
> >> >>>>>>> and
> >> >>>>>>>>> if
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
> >> >>>>>>> because
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> that's
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
> >> >>>>>>>> both
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> those
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
> >> >>>>>>>> shitty
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >> >>>>>>>> reason,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> and at
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
> >> >>>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >> >>>>>>> think
> >> >>>>>>>> we
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >> >>>>>> are
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
> >> >>>>>>> isn't
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
> >> >>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
> >> >>>>> ).
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
> >> >>>>> **************
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
> >> >>>>>>> have
> >> >>>>>>>>> not
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >> >>>>>>>> answers.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
> >> >>>>>>>> looking
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
> >> >>>>>>>> frustration
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
> >> >>>> the
> >> >>>>>>>> answer
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
> >> >>>> apps
> >> >>>>> in
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
> >> >>>> (learnability |
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
> >> >>>> articles,
> >> >>>>>>>> books)
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> >> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
> >> >>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >> >>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> --
> >> >>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >> >>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>
> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
RE: Github, again.
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
Yes we have discussed this. The cost is prohibitive. David Nalley as VP Infra has the details.
Sent from my Windows Phone
________________________________
From: Brian LeRoux<ma...@brian.io>
Sent: 4/10/2015 8:53 AM
To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Github, again.
And actually, a colleague recalled we talked about on prem w github entp
too. Which totally addresses the issue. It was shot down of course despite
github offering to donate to apache.
Now maybe this is possible?
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:16 AM Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
>>
>> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Founda
>> tion-tp5722483p5722847.html
>>
>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
>>
>> > On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>> >
>> > It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
>> (code).
>> > Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code)
>> or
>> > worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>> >
>> > I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
>> most
>> > brands appear to feel this risk is low.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
>> >>> but I
>> >>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
>> >>> (some
>> >>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
>> >>> anyways).
>> >>>
>> >>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
>> >>> constructive.
>> >>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the
>> >>> sake
>> >>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
>> >>> others
>> >>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
>> >>> negative towards.
>> >>>
>> >>> Another angle:
>> >>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
>> >>> views are
>> >>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
>> >>> make it
>> >>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just
>> >>> makes
>> >>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
>> >>> contribute to
>> >>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
>> >>> people
>> >>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the email
>> >>> tone
>> >>> positive even when you disagree.
>> >>>
>> >>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova Apache'ers
>> >>> (we
>> >>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
>> >>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
>> >>> up.
>> >>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
>> >>> instance.
>> >>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
>> >>> collaboration
>> >>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
>> >>> but
>> >>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
>> >>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time (although
>> >>> we
>> >>> decided not to stick with it).
>> >>>
>> >>> Why can we not use Github issues?
>> >>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
>> >>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that
>> >>> hasn't happened yet.
>> >>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
>> >>> issue
>> >>> trackers count as "data"?
>> >>
>> >> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse foundation
>> >> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
>> >> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org terms
>> >> of use.
>> >>
>> >>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
>> >>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
>> >>> that's
>> >>> meant for cross-project discussion.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>> >>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
>> >>>>> is
>> >>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
>> >>>>> why *I*
>> >>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
>> >>>>> Stack
>> >>>>> Overflow survey).
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
>> >>>> tone
>> >>>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a personal
>> >>>> attack
>> >>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
>> >>>> only
>> >>>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
>> >>>> with me,
>> >>>> because we're still here.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Joe
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Ross
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
>> >>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>> >>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
>> >>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
>> >>>>>> and
>> >>>>>> participation.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
>> >>>> clearly
>> >>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
>> >>>>> fight
>> >>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
>> >>>>> project, and
>> >>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
>> >>>>>> they
>> >>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
>> >>>>>> propose
>> >>>>>> changes that work.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose
>> >>>> rules
>> >>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that.
>> >>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
>> >>>>>> some
>> >>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their
>> >>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
>> >>>> donated
>> >>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
>> >>>>> complained
>> >>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
>> >>>>> since
>> >>>> we
>> >>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
>> >>>>> who
>> >>>> feel
>> >>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
>> >>>>> convince
>> >>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
>> >>>>> since
>> >>>> your
>> >>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts
>> >>>>> of
>> >>>> the
>> >>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
>> >>>>> haven't
>> >>>>> forked yet.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Joe
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Ross
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>> >>>>>> ________________________________
>> >>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
>> >>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Joe,
>> >>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while
>> >>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Marcel,
>> >>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk
>> >>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
>> >>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the
>> >>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place
>> >>>> like
>> >>>>> I layout in my email?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
>> >>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
>> >>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
>> >>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
>> >>>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
>> >>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
>> >>>>>>>> this
>> >>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
>> >>>>>>> hate
>> >>>>>> GitHub
>> >>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems
>> >>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to
>> >>>>>>> dump JIRA
>> >>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
>> >>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
>> >>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
>> >>>>>>>> Foundation,
>> >>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
>> >>>>>>>> community
>> >>>>>> they
>> >>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving
>> >>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to
>> >>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
>> >>>>>>> thing
>> >>>>>>> that I think we
>> >>>>>> don't
>> >>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
>> >>>>>>> how
>> >>>>>> these
>> >>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
>> >>>>>>> about
>> >>>>>> such
>> >>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
>> >>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem
>> >>>>>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>>> clearly
>> >>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
>> >>>>>>>>> They
>> >>>>>>> think
>> >>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
>> >>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web
>> >>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
>> >>>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>> them
>> >>>>>>>> are
>> >>>>>>>>> native :)
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
>> >>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
>> >>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
>> >>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>> >>>>>>>>>> :
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
>> >>>>>> details
>> >>>>>>>>> about
>> >>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the
>> >>>>>>>>>> work
>> >>>>>>>> done
>> >>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think
>> >>>>>>>>>> I am
>> >>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>> only one.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
>> >>>>>>>>>> good as
>> >>>>>>>> native
>> >>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
>> >>>>>>>>>> for
>> >>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>> apps I
>> >>>>>>>>>> work on!
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com
>> >>>>> :
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
>> >>>>>>>>>>> graphics
>> >>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
>> >>>>>>>>>>> possible
>> >>>>>>>> reasons:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
>> >>>>>>>>>>> years
>> >>>>>>> ago.
>> >>>>>>>>> Even
>> >>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
>> >>>>>>>>>>> still
>> >>>>>>> hang
>> >>>>>>>> in
>> >>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
>> >>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
>> >>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
>> >>>>>> but
>> >>>>>>>>> it's
>> >>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
>> >>>>>>>>>>> recommended
>> >>>>>>> using
>> >>>>>>>>> CSS
>> >>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
>> >>>>>>>>>>> my
>> >>>>>> whole
>> >>>>>>>> way
>> >>>>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
>> >>>>>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>> it. I
>> >>>>>>>>>> think
>> >>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
>> >>>>>>>>>>> that
>> >>>>>> for
>> >>>>>>>>>> making
>> >>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
>> >>>>>>>>>>> their
>> >>>>>>>> iOS-style
>> >>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
>> >>>>>>>>>>> users
>> >>>>>>>>> expect
>> >>>>>>>>>> a
>> >>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
>> >>>>>>>>>>> about
>> >>>>>>>> this.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
>> >>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> score
>> >>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>>> low
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>> default
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Git
>> >>>>>>>> Bash,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
>> >>>>>>> no
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> full
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> this and
>> >>>>>>> as
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> survey
>> >>>>>>>>> results
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
>> >>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
>> >>>>>>> developers
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> using
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
>> >>>>>> nothing
>> >>>>>>>>> about
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
>> >>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
>> >>>>>>> communitcation
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
>> >>>>>>> special
>> >>>>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
>> >>>>>> which
>> >>>>>>>> are
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> not
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>> >>>>>> :-)
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>> >>>>>>> happy?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
>> >>>>>>> applications
>> >>>>>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
>> >>>>>> application
>> >>>>>>>>> from
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
>> >>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>> if
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
>> >>>>>>> because
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
>> >>>>>>>> both
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> those
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
>> >>>>>>>> shitty
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>> >>>>>>>> reason,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and at
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
>> >>>>>>>> think
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>> >>>>>>> think
>> >>>>>>>> we
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> should
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>> >>>>>> are
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
>> >>>>>>> isn't
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
>> >>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
>> >>>>> ).
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
>> >>>>> **************
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>> >>>>>>> have
>> >>>>>>>>> not
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>> >>>>>>>> answers.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
>> >>>>>>>> looking
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> for
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
>> >>>>>>>> frustration
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
>> >>>> the
>> >>>>>>>> answer
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
>> >>>> apps
>> >>>>> in
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
>> >>>> (learnability |
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
>> >>>> articles,
>> >>>>>>>> books)
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
>> >>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
>> >>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
>> >>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
>> >>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>> >>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> --
>> >>>>>> Carlos Santana
>> >>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>
>>
Re: Github, again.
Posted by Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io>.
And actually, a colleague recalled we talked about on prem w github entp
too. Which totally addresses the issue. It was shot down of course despite
github offering to donate to apache.
Now maybe this is possible?
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 8:16 AM Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
>
> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
>> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
>> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
>> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
>> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
>> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
>>
>> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Founda
>> tion-tp5722483p5722847.html
>>
>> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
>> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
>>
>> > On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>> >
>> > It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
>> (code).
>> > Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code)
>> or
>> > worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>> >
>> > I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
>> most
>> > brands appear to feel this risk is low.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
>> >>> but I
>> >>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
>> >>> (some
>> >>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
>> >>> anyways).
>> >>>
>> >>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
>> >>> constructive.
>> >>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the
>> >>> sake
>> >>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
>> >>> others
>> >>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
>> >>> negative towards.
>> >>>
>> >>> Another angle:
>> >>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
>> >>> views are
>> >>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
>> >>> make it
>> >>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just
>> >>> makes
>> >>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
>> >>> contribute to
>> >>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
>> >>> people
>> >>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the email
>> >>> tone
>> >>> positive even when you disagree.
>> >>>
>> >>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova Apache'ers
>> >>> (we
>> >>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
>> >>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
>> >>> up.
>> >>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
>> >>> instance.
>> >>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
>> >>> collaboration
>> >>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
>> >>> but
>> >>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
>> >>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time (although
>> >>> we
>> >>> decided not to stick with it).
>> >>>
>> >>> Why can we not use Github issues?
>> >>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
>> >>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that
>> >>> hasn't happened yet.
>> >>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
>> >>> issue
>> >>> trackers count as "data"?
>> >>
>> >> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse foundation
>> >> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
>> >> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org terms
>> >> of use.
>> >>
>> >>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
>> >>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
>> >>> that's
>> >>> meant for cross-project discussion.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>> >>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
>> >>>>> is
>> >>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
>> >>>>> why *I*
>> >>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
>> >>>>> Stack
>> >>>>> Overflow survey).
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
>> >>>> tone
>> >>>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a personal
>> >>>> attack
>> >>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
>> >>>> only
>> >>>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
>> >>>> with me,
>> >>>> because we're still here.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Joe
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Ross
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
>> >>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
>> >>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>> >>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
>> >>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
>> >>>>>> and
>> >>>>>> participation.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
>> >>>> clearly
>> >>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
>> >>>>> fight
>> >>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
>> >>>>> project, and
>> >>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
>> >>>>>> they
>> >>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
>> >>>>>> propose
>> >>>>>> changes that work.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose
>> >>>> rules
>> >>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that.
>> >>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
>> >>>>>> some
>> >>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their
>> >>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
>> >>>> donated
>> >>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
>> >>>>> complained
>> >>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
>> >>>>> since
>> >>>> we
>> >>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
>> >>>>> who
>> >>>> feel
>> >>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
>> >>>>> convince
>> >>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
>> >>>>> since
>> >>>> your
>> >>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts
>> >>>>> of
>> >>>> the
>> >>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
>> >>>>> haven't
>> >>>>> forked yet.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Joe
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Ross
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>> >>>>>> ________________________________
>> >>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
>> >>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Joe,
>> >>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while
>> >>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Marcel,
>> >>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk
>> >>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
>> >>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the
>> >>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place
>> >>>> like
>> >>>>> I layout in my email?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
>> >>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
>> >>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
>> >>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
>> >>>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
>> >>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
>> >>>>>>>> this
>> >>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
>> >>>>>>> hate
>> >>>>>> GitHub
>> >>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems
>> >>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to
>> >>>>>>> dump JIRA
>> >>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
>> >>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
>> >>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
>> >>>>>>>> Foundation,
>> >>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
>> >>>>>>>> community
>> >>>>>> they
>> >>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving
>> >>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to
>> >>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
>> >>>>>>> thing
>> >>>>>>> that I think we
>> >>>>>> don't
>> >>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
>> >>>>>>> how
>> >>>>>> these
>> >>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
>> >>>>>>> about
>> >>>>>> such
>> >>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
>> >>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem
>> >>>>>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>>> clearly
>> >>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
>> >>>>>>>>> They
>> >>>>>>> think
>> >>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
>> >>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web
>> >>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
>> >>>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>> them
>> >>>>>>>> are
>> >>>>>>>>> native :)
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
>> >>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
>> >>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
>> >>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>> >>>>>>>>>> :
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
>> >>>>>> details
>> >>>>>>>>> about
>> >>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the
>> >>>>>>>>>> work
>> >>>>>>>> done
>> >>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think
>> >>>>>>>>>> I am
>> >>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>> only one.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
>> >>>>>>>>>> good as
>> >>>>>>>> native
>> >>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
>> >>>>>>>>>> for
>> >>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>> apps I
>> >>>>>>>>>> work on!
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com
>> >>>>> :
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
>> >>>>>>>>>>> graphics
>> >>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
>> >>>>>>>>>>> possible
>> >>>>>>>> reasons:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
>> >>>>>>>>>>> years
>> >>>>>>> ago.
>> >>>>>>>>> Even
>> >>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
>> >>>>>>>>>>> still
>> >>>>>>> hang
>> >>>>>>>> in
>> >>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
>> >>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
>> >>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
>> >>>>>> but
>> >>>>>>>>> it's
>> >>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
>> >>>>>>>>>>> recommended
>> >>>>>>> using
>> >>>>>>>>> CSS
>> >>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
>> >>>>>>>>>>> my
>> >>>>>> whole
>> >>>>>>>> way
>> >>>>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
>> >>>>>>>>>>> of
>> >>>>>>> it. I
>> >>>>>>>>>> think
>> >>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
>> >>>>>>>>>>> that
>> >>>>>> for
>> >>>>>>>>>> making
>> >>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
>> >>>>>>>>>>> their
>> >>>>>>>> iOS-style
>> >>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
>> >>>>>>>>>>> users
>> >>>>>>>>> expect
>> >>>>>>>>>> a
>> >>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
>> >>>>>>>>>>> about
>> >>>>>>>> this.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
>> >>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> score
>> >>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>>> low
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>> default
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Git
>> >>>>>>>> Bash,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
>> >>>>>>> no
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> full
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> this and
>> >>>>>>> as
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> survey
>> >>>>>>>>> results
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
>> >>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
>> >>>>>>> developers
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> using
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
>> >>>>>> nothing
>> >>>>>>>>> about
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
>> >>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
>> >>>>>>> communitcation
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
>> >>>>>>> special
>> >>>>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
>> >>>>>> which
>> >>>>>>>> are
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> not
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>> >>>>>> :-)
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>> >>>>>>> happy?
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
>> >>>>>>> applications
>> >>>>>>>>> is
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
>> >>>>>> application
>> >>>>>>>>> from
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
>> >>>>>>> and
>> >>>>>>>>> if
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
>> >>>>>>> because
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
>> >>>>>>>> both
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> those
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
>> >>>>>>>> shitty
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>> >>>>>>>> reason,
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> and at
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
>> >>>>>>>> think
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>> >>>>>>> think
>> >>>>>>>> we
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> should
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>> >>>>>> are
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
>> >>>>>>> isn't
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
>> >>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
>> >>>>> ).
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
>> >>>>> **************
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>> >>>>>>> have
>> >>>>>>>>> not
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>> >>>>>>>> answers.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
>> >>>>>>>> looking
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> for
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
>> >>>>>>>> frustration
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
>> >>>> the
>> >>>>>>>> answer
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
>> >>>> apps
>> >>>>> in
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
>> >>>> (learnability |
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
>> >>>> articles,
>> >>>>>>>> books)
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
>> >>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
>> >>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
>> >>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
>> >>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>> >>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> --
>> >>>>>> Carlos Santana
>> >>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>
>>
Re: Github, again.
Posted by Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io>.
I said as much Jim. As to FUD...
On Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 6:18 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
> the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
> several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
> sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
> typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
>
> http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-
> Foundation-tp5722483p5722847.html
>
> Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
> this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
>
> > On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
> >
> > It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP
> (code).
> > Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code)
> or
> > worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
> >
> > I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that
> most
> > brands appear to feel this risk is low.
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
> >>
> >>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
> >>> but I
> >>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
> >>> (some
> >>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
> >>> anyways).
> >>>
> >>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
> >>> constructive.
> >>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the
> >>> sake
> >>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
> >>> others
> >>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
> >>> negative towards.
> >>>
> >>> Another angle:
> >>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
> >>> views are
> >>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
> >>> make it
> >>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just
> >>> makes
> >>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
> >>> contribute to
> >>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
> >>> people
> >>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the email
> >>> tone
> >>> positive even when you disagree.
> >>>
> >>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova Apache'ers
> >>> (we
> >>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
> >>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
> >>> up.
> >>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
> >>> instance.
> >>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
> >>> collaboration
> >>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
> >>> but
> >>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
> >>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time (although
> >>> we
> >>> decided not to stick with it).
> >>>
> >>> Why can we not use Github issues?
> >>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
> >>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that
> >>> hasn't happened yet.
> >>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
> >>> issue
> >>> trackers count as "data"?
> >>
> >> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse foundation
> >> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
> >> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org terms
> >> of use.
> >>
> >>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
> >>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
> >>> that's
> >>> meant for cross-project discussion.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
> >>>>> is
> >>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
> >>>>> why *I*
> >>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
> >>>>> Stack
> >>>>> Overflow survey).
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
> >>>> tone
> >>>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a personal
> >>>> attack
> >>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
> >>>> only
> >>>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
> >>>> with me,
> >>>> because we're still here.
> >>>>
> >>>> Joe
> >>>>
> >>>> Ross
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
> >>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
> >>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> participation.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
> >>>> clearly
> >>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
> >>>>> fight
> >>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
> >>>>> project, and
> >>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
> >>>>>> they
> >>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
> >>>>>> propose
> >>>>>> changes that work.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose
> >>>> rules
> >>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that.
> >>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
> >>>>>> some
> >>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their
> >>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
> >>>> donated
> >>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
> >>>>> complained
> >>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
> >>>>> since
> >>>> we
> >>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
> >>>>> who
> >>>> feel
> >>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
> >>>>> convince
> >>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
> >>>>> since
> >>>> your
> >>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts
> >>>>> of
> >>>> the
> >>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
> >>>>> haven't
> >>>>> forked yet.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Joe
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ross
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >>>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
> >>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Joe,
> >>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while
> >>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Marcel,
> >>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk
> >>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
> >>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the
> >>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place
> >>>> like
> >>>>> I layout in my email?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> >>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
> >>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> >>>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
> >>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
> >>>>>>>> this
> >>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
> >>>>>>> hate
> >>>>>> GitHub
> >>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems
> >>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to
> >>>>>>> dump JIRA
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
> >>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
> >>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
> >>>>>>>> Foundation,
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
> >>>>>>>> community
> >>>>>> they
> >>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving
> >>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to
> >>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
> >>>>>>> thing
> >>>>>>> that I think we
> >>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
> >>>>>>> how
> >>>>>> these
> >>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
> >>>>>>> about
> >>>>>> such
> >>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
> >>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem
> >>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
> >>>>>>>>> They
> >>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> >>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web
> >>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
> >>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>> them
> >>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>> native :)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
> >>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> >>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> >>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
> >>>>>> details
> >>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the
> >>>>>>>>>> work
> >>>>>>>> done
> >>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think
> >>>>>>>>>> I am
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> only one.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
> >>>>>>>>>> good as
> >>>>>>>> native
> >>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
> >>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> apps I
> >>>>>>>>>> work on!
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com
> >>>>> :
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
> >>>>>>>>>>> graphics
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
> >>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>> reasons:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
> >>>>>>>>>>> years
> >>>>>>> ago.
> >>>>>>>>> Even
> >>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
> >>>>>>>>>>> still
> >>>>>>> hang
> >>>>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
> >>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
> >>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
> >>>>>> but
> >>>>>>>>> it's
> >>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
> >>>>>>>>>>> recommended
> >>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>> CSS
> >>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
> >>>>>>>>>>> my
> >>>>>> whole
> >>>>>>>> way
> >>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
> >>>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>> it. I
> >>>>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
> >>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>> making
> >>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
> >>>>>>>>>>> their
> >>>>>>>> iOS-style
> >>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
> >>>>>>>>>>> users
> >>>>>>>>> expect
> >>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
> >>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>> this.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> >>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> score
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>> low
> >>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> default
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Git
> >>>>>>>> Bash,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
> >>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
> >>>>>>> no
> >>>>>>>>>>>> full
> >>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
> >>>>>>>>>>>> this and
> >>>>>>> as
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
> >>>>>>>>>>>> survey
> >>>>>>>>> results
> >>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> >>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
> >>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
> >>>>>> nothing
> >>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> >>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
> >>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> >>>>>>> communitcation
> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
> >>>>>>> special
> >>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
> >>>>>> which
> >>>>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>> :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>>> happy?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> >>>>>>> applications
> >>>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
> >>>>>> application
> >>>>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
> >>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
> >>>>>>>> both
> >>>>>>>>>>>> those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
> >>>>>>>> shitty
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>> reason,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and at
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
> >>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
> >>>>>>> isn't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
> >>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
> >>>>> ).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
> >>>>> **************
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
> >>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>>>> answers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
> >>>>>>>> looking
> >>>>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
> >>>>>>>> frustration
> >>>>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>>> answer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
> >>>> apps
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
> >>>> (learnability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
> >>>> articles,
> >>>>>>>> books)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
> >>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
> >>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
> >>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
> >>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
Github, again.
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
Actually, during the long discussion regarding Groovy moving to
the ASF, the whole "what's wrong w/ Github" was brought up
several times, and answered several times (as I was almost
sure it was done here)... In any case, the following is a
typical response to why Github cannot be canon:
http://groovy.329449.n5.nabble.com/Moving-Groovy-to-a-Foundation-tp5722483p5722847.html
Since IP provenance is important, I'm sure we all understand
this issue now, and this FUD can finally die.
> On Apr 9, 2015, at 8:27 PM, Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io> wrote:
>
> It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP (code).
> Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code) or
> worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
>
> I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that most
> brands appear to feel this risk is low.
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
>>
>>> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
>>> but I
>>> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
>>> (some
>>> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
>>> anyways).
>>>
>>> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
>>> constructive.
>>> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the
>>> sake
>>> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
>>> others
>>> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
>>> negative towards.
>>>
>>> Another angle:
>>> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
>>> views are
>>> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
>>> make it
>>> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just
>>> makes
>>> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
>>> contribute to
>>> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
>>> people
>>> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the email
>>> tone
>>> positive even when you disagree.
>>>
>>> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova Apache'ers
>>> (we
>>> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
>>> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
>>> up.
>>> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
>>> instance.
>>> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
>>> collaboration
>>> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
>>> but
>>> didn't do the work to make it possible).
>>> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time (although
>>> we
>>> decided not to stick with it).
>>>
>>> Why can we not use Github issues?
>>> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
>>> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that
>>> hasn't happened yet.
>>> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
>>> issue
>>> trackers count as "data"?
>>
>> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse foundation
>> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
>> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org terms
>> of use.
>>
>>> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
>>> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
>>> that's
>>> meant for cross-project discussion.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
>>>>> is
>>>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
>>>>> why *I*
>>>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
>>>>> Stack
>>>>> Overflow survey).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
>>>> tone
>>>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a personal
>>>> attack
>>>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
>>>> only
>>>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
>>>> with me,
>>>> because we're still here.
>>>>
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>> Ross
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
>>>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> participation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
>>>> clearly
>>>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
>>>>> fight
>>>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
>>>>> project, and
>>>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
>>>>>> propose
>>>>>> changes that work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose
>>>> rules
>>>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that.
>>>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their
>>>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
>>>> donated
>>>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
>>>>> complained
>>>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
>>>>> since
>>>> we
>>>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
>>>>> who
>>>> feel
>>>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
>>>>> convince
>>>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
>>>>> since
>>>> your
>>>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts
>>>>> of
>>>> the
>>>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
>>>>> haven't
>>>>> forked yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe
>>>>>
>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
>>>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while
>>>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marcel,
>>>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk
>>>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
>>>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the
>>>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place
>>>> like
>>>>> I layout in my email?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
>>>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
>>>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
>>>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
>>>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
>>>>>>> hate
>>>>>> GitHub
>>>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems
>>>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to
>>>>>>> dump JIRA
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
>>>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
>>>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
>>>>>>>> Foundation,
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving
>>>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to
>>>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>> that I think we
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>> these
>>>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>> such
>>>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
>>>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
>>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
>>>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web
>>>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> native :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
>>>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
>>>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
>>>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
>>>>>> details
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the
>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>> done
>>>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think
>>>>>>>>>> I am
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> only one.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
>>>>>>>>>> good as
>>>>>>>> native
>>>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> apps I
>>>>>>>>>> work on!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com
>>>>> :
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
>>>>>>>>>>> graphics
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>> reasons:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>> ago.
>>>>>>>>> Even
>>>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
>>>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>> hang
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
>>>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
>>>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
>>>>>>>>>>> recommended
>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>> CSS
>>>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>> whole
>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> it. I
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> making
>>>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> iOS-style
>>>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
>>>>>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
>>>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> score
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> low
>>>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> default
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
>>>>>>>>>>>> Git
>>>>>>>> Bash,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
>>>>>>>>>>>> development, and
>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>> full
>>>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
>>>>>>>>>>>> this and
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual
>>>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
>>>>>>>>>>>> survey
>>>>>>>>> results
>>>>>>>>>>>> improve.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
>>>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
>>>>>> nothing
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
>>>>>>> JS->Native->JS
>>>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
>>>>>>> communitcation
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
>>>>>>> special
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> cordova
>>>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
>>>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>>> happy?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
>>>>>>> applications
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
>>>>>> application
>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> natively
>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
>>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> create a
>>>>>>>> shitty
>>>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> reason,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
>>>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (
>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
>>>>> ).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
>>>>> **************
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>>>> answers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> looking
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
>>>>>>>> frustration
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
>>>> the
>>>>>>>> answer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
>>>> apps
>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
>>>> (learnability |
>>>>>>>>>>>> usability |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
>>>> articles,
>>>>>>>> books)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
>>>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
>>>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
>>>>>>>>>> Netdevices
>>>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>
>>
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RE: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
No, that is not the root of the problem. The root is that we don't have access to the logs and thus cannot create an IP trail.
Sent from my Windows Phone
________________________________
From: Brian LeRoux<ma...@brian.io>
Sent: 4/9/2015 5:30 PM
To: dev<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP (code).
Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code) or
worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that most
brands appear to feel this risk is low.
On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
>
> > Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
> > but I
> > will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
> > (some
> > of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
> > anyways).
> >
> > Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
> > constructive.
> > If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the
> > sake
> > of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
> > others
> > almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
> > negative towards.
> >
> > Another angle:
> > Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
> > views are
> > your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
> > make it
> > sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just
> > makes
> > people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
> > contribute to
> > a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
> > people
> > are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the email
> > tone
> > positive even when you disagree.
> >
> > Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova Apache'ers
> > (we
> > are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
> > - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
> > up.
> > - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
> > instance.
> > - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
> > collaboration
> > between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
> > but
> > didn't do the work to make it possible).
> > - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time (although
> > we
> > decided not to stick with it).
> >
> > Why can we not use Github issues?
> > - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
> > - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that
> > hasn't happened yet.
> > - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
> > issue
> > trackers count as "data"?
>
> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse foundation
> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org terms
> of use.
>
> > - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
> > - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
> > that's
> > meant for cross-project discussion.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
> >>> is
> >>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
> >>> why *I*
> >>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
> >>> Stack
> >>> Overflow survey).
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
> >> tone
> >> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a personal
> >> attack
> >> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
> >> only
> >> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
> >> with me,
> >> because we're still here.
> >>
> >> Joe
> >>
> >> Ross
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
> >>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
> >>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
> >>>> and
> >>>> participation.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
> >> clearly
> >>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
> >>> fight
> >>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
> >>> project, and
> >>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
> >>>> they
> >>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
> >>>> propose
> >>>> changes that work.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose
> >> rules
> >>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that.
> >>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
> >>>> some
> >>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their
> >>>> voices are usually drowned out.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
> >> donated
> >>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
> >>> complained
> >>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
> >>> since
> >> we
> >>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
> >>> who
> >> feel
> >>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
> >>> convince
> >>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
> >>> since
> >> your
> >>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts
> >>> of
> >> the
> >>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
> >>> haven't
> >>> forked yet.
> >>>
> >>> Joe
> >>>
> >>> Ross
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >>>> ________________________________
> >>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
> >>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
> >>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >>>>
> >>>> Joe,
> >>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while
> >>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
> >>>>
> >>>> Marcel,
> >>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk
> >>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
> >>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the
> >>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place
> >> like
> >>> I layout in my email?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
> >>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> >>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
> >>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> >>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
> >>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
> >>>>>> this
> >>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
> >>>>> hate
> >>>> GitHub
> >>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems
> >>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to
> >>>>> dump JIRA
> >>>> and
> >>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
> >>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
> >>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
> >>>>>> Foundation,
> >>>> to
> >>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
> >>>>>> community
> >>>> they
> >>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving
> >>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to
> >>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
> >>>>> thing
> >>>>> that I think we
> >>>> don't
> >>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
> >>>>> how
> >>>> these
> >>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
> >>>>> about
> >>>> such
> >>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
> >>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem
> >>>>>>> is
> >>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
> >>>>>>> They
> >>>>> think
> >>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> >>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web
> >>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>> them
> >>>>>> are
> >>>>>>> native :)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
> >>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> >>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> >>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
> >>>> details
> >>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the
> >>>>>>>> work
> >>>>>> done
> >>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think
> >>>>>>>> I am
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> only one.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
> >>>>>>>> good as
> >>>>>> native
> >>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
> >>>>>>>> for
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>> apps I
> >>>>>>>> work on!
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com
> >>> :
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
> >>>>>>>>> graphics
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
> >>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>> reasons:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
> >>>>>>>>> years
> >>>>> ago.
> >>>>>>> Even
> >>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
> >>>>>>>>> still
> >>>>> hang
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>> people's minds.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
> >>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
> >>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
> >>>> but
> >>>>>>> it's
> >>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
> >>>>>>>>> recommended
> >>>>> using
> >>>>>>> CSS
> >>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
> >>>>>>>>> my
> >>>> whole
> >>>>>> way
> >>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
> >>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>> it. I
> >>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
> >>>>>>>>> that
> >>>> for
> >>>>>>>> making
> >>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
> >>>>>>>>> their
> >>>>>> iOS-style
> >>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
> >>>>>>>>> users
> >>>>>>> expect
> >>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
> >>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>> this.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Tyler
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> >>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
> >>>>>>>>>> score
> >>>> is
> >>>>>> low
> >>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>> default
> >>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
> >>>>>>>>>> Git
> >>>>>> Bash,
> >>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
> >>>>>>>>>> development, and
> >>>>> no
> >>>>>>>>>> full
> >>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
> >>>>>>>>>> this and
> >>>>> as
> >>>>>>>>>> Visual
> >>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
> >>>>>>>>>> survey
> >>>>>>> results
> >>>>>>>>>> improve.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> >>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
> >>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
> >>>> nothing
> >>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> >>>>> JS->Native->JS
> >>>>>>>>>> bridge.
> >>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> >>>>> communitcation
> >>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
> >>>>> special
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
> >>>> which
> >>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
> >>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>> :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
> >>>>>>>>>>> of the
> >>>>>>>>>> cordova
> >>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> >>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
> >>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>> happy?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
> >>>>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>> everyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> >>>>> applications
> >>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
> >>>> application
> >>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
> >>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
> >>>>>>>>>>> natively
> >>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>> that's
> >>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
> >>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
> >>>>>> both
> >>>>>>>>>> those
> >>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>> create a
> >>>>>> shitty
> >>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
> >>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>> reason,
> >>>>>>>>>> and at
> >>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
> >>>>>>>>>>> because I
> >>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>> Drupal
> >>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
> >>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>> think
> >>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
> >>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>> terrible
> >>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
> >>>>>>>>>>> releasing
> >>>>> isn't
> >>>>>>>>>> terrible.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> >>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
> >>>>>>>>>>>> (
> >> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
> >>> ).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
> >>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
> >>> **************
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
> >>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
> >>>>>>>>>>>> but
> >>>>> have
> >>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
> >>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>> answers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
> >>>>>>>>>>>> rather
> >>>>>> looking
> >>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
> >>>>>> frustration
> >>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
> >> the
> >>>>>> answer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
> >> apps
> >>> in
> >>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
> >>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
> >> (learnability |
> >>>>>>>>>> usability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
> >> articles,
> >>>>>> books)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
> >>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Cordialement,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
> >>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
> >>>>>>>> Netdevices
> >>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Brian LeRoux <b...@brian.io>.
It is the current interpretation of policy wrt providence of the IP (code).
Github could go bankrupt/exit to Oracle and disappear (ala Google Code) or
worse go rogue and sneak patent violations into our code.
I'll leave the likelyhood of these scare scenarios to you noting that most
brands appear to feel this risk is low.
On Thu, Apr 9, 2015, 5:22 PM Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
>
> > Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
> > but I
> > will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
> > (some
> > of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
> > anyways).
> >
> > Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
> > constructive.
> > If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the
> > sake
> > of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
> > others
> > almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
> > negative towards.
> >
> > Another angle:
> > Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
> > views are
> > your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
> > make it
> > sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just
> > makes
> > people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
> > contribute to
> > a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
> > people
> > are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the email
> > tone
> > positive even when you disagree.
> >
> > Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova Apache'ers
> > (we
> > are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
> > - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
> > up.
> > - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
> > instance.
> > - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
> > collaboration
> > between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
> > but
> > didn't do the work to make it possible).
> > - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time (although
> > we
> > decided not to stick with it).
> >
> > Why can we not use Github issues?
> > - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
> > - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that
> > hasn't happened yet.
> > - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
> > issue
> > trackers count as "data"?
>
> This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse foundation
> which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
> as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org terms
> of use.
>
> > - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
> > - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
> > that's
> > meant for cross-project discussion.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
> >>> is
> >>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
> >>> why *I*
> >>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
> >>> Stack
> >>> Overflow survey).
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
> >> tone
> >> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a personal
> >> attack
> >> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
> >> only
> >> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
> >> with me,
> >> because we're still here.
> >>
> >> Joe
> >>
> >> Ross
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
> >>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> >>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
> >>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
> >>>> and
> >>>> participation.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
> >> clearly
> >>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
> >>> fight
> >>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
> >>> project, and
> >>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
> >>>> they
> >>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
> >>>> propose
> >>>> changes that work.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose
> >> rules
> >>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that.
> >>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
> >>>> some
> >>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their
> >>>> voices are usually drowned out.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
> >> donated
> >>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
> >>> complained
> >>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
> >>> since
> >> we
> >>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
> >>> who
> >> feel
> >>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
> >>> convince
> >>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
> >>> since
> >> your
> >>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts
> >>> of
> >> the
> >>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
> >>> haven't
> >>> forked yet.
> >>>
> >>> Joe
> >>>
> >>> Ross
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >>>> ________________________________
> >>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
> >>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
> >>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >>>>
> >>>> Joe,
> >>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while
> >>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
> >>>>
> >>>> Marcel,
> >>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk
> >>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
> >>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the
> >>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place
> >> like
> >>> I layout in my email?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
> >>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> >>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
> >>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> >>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
> >>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
> >>>>>> this
> >>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
> >>>>> hate
> >>>> GitHub
> >>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems
> >>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to
> >>>>> dump JIRA
> >>>> and
> >>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
> >>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
> >>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
> >>>>>> Foundation,
> >>>> to
> >>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
> >>>>>> community
> >>>> they
> >>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving
> >>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to
> >>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
> >>>>> thing
> >>>>> that I think we
> >>>> don't
> >>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
> >>>>> how
> >>>> these
> >>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
> >>>>> about
> >>>> such
> >>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
> >>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem
> >>>>>>> is
> >>>>>> clearly
> >>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
> >>>>>>> They
> >>>>> think
> >>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> >>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web
> >>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>> them
> >>>>>> are
> >>>>>>> native :)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
> >>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> >>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> >>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>> :
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
> >>>> details
> >>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the
> >>>>>>>> work
> >>>>>> done
> >>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think
> >>>>>>>> I am
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> only one.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
> >>>>>>>> good as
> >>>>>> native
> >>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
> >>>>>>>> for
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>> apps I
> >>>>>>>> work on!
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com
> >>> :
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
> >>>>>>>>> graphics
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
> >>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>> reasons:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
> >>>>>>>>> years
> >>>>> ago.
> >>>>>>> Even
> >>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
> >>>>>>>>> still
> >>>>> hang
> >>>>>> in
> >>>>>>>>> people's minds.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
> >>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
> >>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
> >>>> but
> >>>>>>> it's
> >>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
> >>>>>>>>> recommended
> >>>>> using
> >>>>>>> CSS
> >>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
> >>>>>>>>> my
> >>>> whole
> >>>>>> way
> >>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
> >>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>> it. I
> >>>>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
> >>>>>>>>> that
> >>>> for
> >>>>>>>> making
> >>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
> >>>>>>>>> their
> >>>>>> iOS-style
> >>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
> >>>>>>>>> users
> >>>>>>> expect
> >>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
> >>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>> this.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Tyler
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> >>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
> >>>>>>>>>> score
> >>>> is
> >>>>>> low
> >>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>> default
> >>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
> >>>>>>>>>> Git
> >>>>>> Bash,
> >>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
> >>>>>>>>>> development, and
> >>>>> no
> >>>>>>>>>> full
> >>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
> >>>>>>>>>> this and
> >>>>> as
> >>>>>>>>>> Visual
> >>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
> >>>>>>>>>> survey
> >>>>>>> results
> >>>>>>>>>> improve.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> >>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
> >>>>> developers
> >>>>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
> >>>> nothing
> >>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> >>>>> JS->Native->JS
> >>>>>>>>>> bridge.
> >>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> >>>>> communitcation
> >>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
> >>>>> special
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
> >>>> which
> >>>>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
> >>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>> :-)
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
> >>>>>>>>>>> of the
> >>>>>>>>>> cordova
> >>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> >>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
> >>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>>> happy?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
> >>>>>>>>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>> everyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> >>>>> applications
> >>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
> >>>> application
> >>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
> >>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
> >>>>>>>>>>> natively
> >>>>> because
> >>>>>>>>>> that's
> >>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
> >>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
> >>>>>> both
> >>>>>>>>>> those
> >>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
> >>>>>>>>>>> create a
> >>>>>> shitty
> >>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
> >>>>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>> reason,
> >>>>>>>>>> and at
> >>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
> >>>>>>>>>>> because I
> >>>>>> think
> >>>>>>>>>> Drupal
> >>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
> >>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>> think
> >>>>>> we
> >>>>>>>>>> should
> >>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
> >>>>>>>>>>> developers
> >>>> are
> >>>>>>>>>> terrible
> >>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
> >>>>>>>>>>> releasing
> >>>>> isn't
> >>>>>>>>>> terrible.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> >>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
> >>>>>>>>>>>> (
> >> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
> >>> ).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
> >>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
> >>> **************
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
> >>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
> >>>>>>>>>>>> but
> >>>>> have
> >>>>>>> not
> >>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
> >>>>>>>>>>>> possible
> >>>>>> answers.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
> >>>>>>>>>>>> rather
> >>>>>> looking
> >>>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
> >>>>>> frustration
> >>>>>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
> >> the
> >>>>>> answer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
> >> apps
> >>> in
> >>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
> >>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
> >> (learnability |
> >>>>>>>>>> usability |
> >>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
> >> articles,
> >>>>>> books)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
> >>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Cordialement,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
> >>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
> >>>>>>>> Netdevices
> >>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Carlos Santana
> >>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Gorkem Ercan <go...@gmail.com>.
On 9 Apr 2015, at 15:38, Andrew Grieve wrote:
> Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now,
> but I
> will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later
> (some
> of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it
> anyways).
>
> Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not
> constructive.
> If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the
> sake
> of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about
> others
> almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
> negative towards.
>
> Another angle:
> Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your
> views are
> your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF"
> make it
> sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just
> makes
> people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to
> contribute to
> a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where
> people
> are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the email
> tone
> positive even when you disagree.
>
> Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova Apache'ers
> (we
> are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
> - We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one
> up.
> - We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
> instance.
> - We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a
> collaboration
> between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained,
> but
> didn't do the work to make it possible).
> - We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time (although
> we
> decided not to stick with it).
>
> Why can we not use Github issues?
> - It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
> - Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that
> hasn't happened yet.
> - It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do
> issue
> trackers count as "data"?
This may actually be intellectual property related. Eclipse foundation
which allows GitHub to be used as primary SCM, does not allow GitHub
as issue tracker because it can not be covered by the Eclipse.org terms
of use.
> - Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
> - dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since
> that's
> meant for cross-project discussion.
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it
>>> is
>>> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and
>>> why *I*
>>> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the
>>> Stack
>>> Overflow survey).
>>>
>>>
>> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the
>> tone
>> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a personal
>> attack
>> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments
>> only
>> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree
>> with me,
>> because we're still here.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> Ross
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
>>> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
>>>> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions
>>>> and
>>>> participation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
>> clearly
>>> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to
>>> fight
>>> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this
>>> project, and
>>> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
>>>
>>>
>>>> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way
>>>> they
>>>> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to
>>>> propose
>>>> changes that work.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose
>> rules
>>> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that.
>>>> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are
>>>> some
>>>> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their
>>>> voices are usually drowned out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
>> donated
>>> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been
>>> complained
>>> about so many times by our community members who have followed us
>>> since
>> we
>>> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people
>>> who
>> feel
>>> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to
>>> convince
>>> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially
>>> since
>> your
>>> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts
>>> of
>> the
>>> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we
>>> haven't
>>> forked yet.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> Ross
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
>>>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>>>
>>>> Joe,
>>>> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while
>>>> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
>>>>
>>>> Marcel,
>>>> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk
>>>> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
>>>> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the
>>>> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place
>> like
>>> I layout in my email?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana
>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
>>>>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Use Github Issues
>>>>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
>>>>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
>>>>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache
>>>>> hate
>>>> GitHub
>>>>> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems
>>>>> just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to
>>>>> dump JIRA
>>>> and
>>>>> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
>>>>> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
>>>>> accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
>>>>>> Foundation,
>>>> to
>>>>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
>>>>>> community
>>>> they
>>>>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving
>>>>> the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to
>>>>> use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One
>>>>> thing
>>>>> that I think we
>>>> don't
>>>>> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and
>>>>> how
>>>> these
>>>>> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
>>>>> about
>>>> such
>>>>> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
>>>>>> <st...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
>>>>>>> They
>>>>> think
>>>>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
>>>>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web
>>>>>>> nor anything relative to the mobile.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
>>>>>>> of
>>>> them
>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> native :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
>>>>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
>>>>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
>>>>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
>>>> details
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the
>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>> done
>>>>>>>> and appreciate it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think
>>>>>>>> I am
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> only one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
>>>>>>>> good as
>>>>>> native
>>>>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
>>>>>>>> for
>>>> the
>>>>>>> apps I
>>>>>>>> work on!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com
>>> :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the
>>>>>>>>> graphics
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>> reasons:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>> ago.
>>>>>>> Even
>>>>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
>>>>>>>>> still
>>>>> hang
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> people's minds.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
>>>>>>>>> buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
>>>>>>>>> WebKit views,
>>>> but
>>>>>>> it's
>>>>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that
>>>>>>>>> recommended
>>>>> using
>>>>>>> CSS
>>>>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
>>>>>>>>> my
>>>> whole
>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>> it. I
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>> for
>>>>>>>> making
>>>>>>>>> top-notch apps.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>> iOS-style
>>>>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android
>>>>>>>>> users
>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tyler
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
>>>>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
>>>>>>>>>> score
>>>> is
>>>>>> low
>>>>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>> default
>>>>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
>>>>>>>>>> Git
>>>>>> Bash,
>>>>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
>>>>>>>>>> development, and
>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>> full
>>>>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
>>>>>>>>>> this and
>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>> Visual
>>>>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
>>>>>>>>>> survey
>>>>>>> results
>>>>>>>>>> improve.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
>>>>> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
>>>>> developers
>>>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
>>>> nothing
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
>>>>> JS->Native->JS
>>>>>>>>>> bridge.
>>>>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
>>>>> communitcation
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> plugins.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
>>>>> special
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
>>>> which
>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>> cordova
>>>>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
>>>>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>>> happy?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>> everyone can
>>>>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
>>>>> applications
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
>>>> application
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up
>>>>>>>>>>> re-writing it
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
>>>>>>>>>>> natively
>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
>>>>>>>>>>> soon, and
>>>>>> both
>>>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can
>>>>>>>>>>> create a
>>>>>> shitty
>>>>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>> reason,
>>>>>>>>>> and at
>>>>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
>>>>>>>>>>> because I
>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>> Drupal
>>>>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>> think
>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most
>>>>>>>>>>> developers
>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> terrible
>>>>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
>>>>>>>>>>> releasing
>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>>>> terrible.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
>>>>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
>>>>>>>>>>>> (
>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
>>> ).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
>>>>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
>>>>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8%
>>> **************
>>>>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
>>>>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
>>>>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>> have
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
>>>>>>>>>>>> possible
>>>>>> answers.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>> looking
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
>>>>>> frustration
>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> Cordova:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to
>> the
>>>>>> answer
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native
>> apps
>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> JavaScript +
>>>>>>>>>>>> HTML5
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
>> (learnability |
>>>>>>>>>> usability |
>>>>>>>>>>>> reliability)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation,
>> articles,
>>>>>> books)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Leo
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
>>>>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from mobile
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Cordialement,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
>>>>>>>> Directeur Technique
>>>>>>>> Netdevices
>>>>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Carlos Santana
>>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Andrew Grieve <ag...@chromium.org>.
Apache provides a lot of benefit. I don't want elaborate right now, but I
will promise to post back with some formulated thoughts a bit later (some
of this I'm prepping for my ApacheCon talk, so I need to do it anyways).
Joe - Please please *please* do not write emails that are not constructive.
If you want to be negative, don't hit the send button. If not for the sake
of others, for the sake of yourself - saying negative things about others
almost always ends up making you look worse than those you are being
negative towards.
Another angle:
Even if you are convinced that you're right, and even though your views are
your own (although statements like "Or we could just leave the ASF" make it
sound like you are representing more than that), your tone often just makes
people want to run away rather than engage. Would you want to contribute to
a project that is full of smileys and encouragement, or one where people
are negative and abrasive? It really goes a long way to keep the email tone
positive even when you disagree.
Since I've been on this project, I've felt that non-Cordova Apache'ers (we
are apache'ers too remember) have been constructive and helpful:
- We want a VM. Mike Billau reached out, and INFRA helped us set one up.
- We want to do BuildBot. Infra helped get us going on their shared
instance.
- We want to use git. So do other projects, and it has been a collaboration
between Infra and other projects that made it happen (we complained, but
didn't do the work to make it possible).
- We want to try reviewboard - Infra got us going in no time (although we
decided not to stick with it).
Why can we not use Github issues?
- It's certainly *not* the case that Apache hates github.
- Has anyone even thought to ask? Maybe it's just a conversation that
hasn't happened yet.
- It's important that Apache projects host their own data, but do issue
trackers count as "data"?
- Sounds like a *great* discussion to have.
- dev@community.apache.org would be a great place to start, since that's
meant for cross-project discussion.
On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> > Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it is
> > offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and why *I*
> > dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the Stack
> > Overflow survey).
> >
> >
> Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the tone
> you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a personal attack
> on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments only
> reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree with me,
> because we're still here.
>
> Joe
>
> Ross
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
> > To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> > Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
> > > influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions and
> > > participation.
> > >
> > >
> > That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are
> clearly
> > people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to fight
> > the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this project, and
> > I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
> >
> >
> > > To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way they
> > > are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to propose
> > > changes that work.
> > >
> > >
> > Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose
> rules
> > aren't as rigid. That could work too.
> >
> >
> > > Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that.
> > > Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are some
> > > individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their
> > > voices are usually drowned out.
> > >
> > >
> > I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we
> donated
> > the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been complained
> > about so many times by our community members who have followed us since
> we
> > started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people who
> feel
> > like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to convince
> > everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially since
> your
> > organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts of
> the
> > JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we haven't
> > forked yet.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > Ross
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent from my Windows Phone
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
> > > Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
> > > To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> > > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> > >
> > > Joe,
> > > Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while
> > > at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
> > >
> > > Marcel,
> > > I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk
> > > to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
> > > developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the
> > > understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place
> like
> > I layout in my email?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana <cs...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> > > > > We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Use Github Issues
> > > > > Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> > > > > Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
> > > > > corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing this
> > > > > with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache hate
> > > GitHub
> > > > with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems
> > > > just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to
> > > > dump JIRA
> > > and
> > > > go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
> > > > infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
> > > > accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
> > > > > Foundation,
> > > to
> > > > > another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
> > > > > community
> > > they
> > > > > should still continue to interface in Github.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving
> > > > the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to
> > > > use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One thing
> > > > that I think we
> > > don't
> > > > communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and how
> > > these
> > > > stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
> > > > about
> > > such
> > > > a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
> > > > > <st...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > As a survey it's always biased.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem
> > > > > > is
> > > > > clearly
> > > > > > not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
> > > > > > They
> > > > think
> > > > > > Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> > > > > > Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web
> > > > > > nor anything relative to the mobile.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
> > > > > > of
> > > them
> > > > > are
> > > > > > native :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Stéphane Bachelier,
> > > > > > Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> > > > > > B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> > > > > > jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> > > > > > >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
> > > details
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the
> > > > > > > work
> > > > > done
> > > > > > > and appreciate it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think
> > > > > > > I am
> > > > the
> > > > > > > only one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
> > > > > > > good as
> > > > > native
> > > > > > > ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
> > > > > > > for
> > > the
> > > > > > apps I
> > > > > > > work on!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Tyler@drumpants.com
> >:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think what colors people's perception the most is the
> > > > > > > > graphics
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
> > > > > > > > possible
> > > > > reasons:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
> > > > > > > > years
> > > > ago.
> > > > > > Even
> > > > > > > > though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
> > > > > > > > still
> > > > hang
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > people's minds.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
> > > > > > > > buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
> > > > > > > > WebKit views,
> > > but
> > > > > > it's
> > > > > > > > hard and takes a lot of work.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > * For instance, I came across an article once that
> > > > > > > > recommended
> > > > using
> > > > > > CSS
> > > > > > > > transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
> > > > > > > > my
> > > whole
> > > > > way
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > it. I
> > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > > it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
> > > > > > > > that
> > > for
> > > > > > > making
> > > > > > > > top-notch apps.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
> > > > > > > > their
> > > > > iOS-style
> > > > > > > > design straight to Android without considering that Android
> > > > > > > > users
> > > > > > expect
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
> > > > > > > > about
> > > > > this.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Tyler
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> > > > > > > michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
> > > > > > > > >score
> > > is
> > > > > low
> > > > > > > > >because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
> > > > > > > > >the
> > > > > default
> > > > > > > > >Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
> > > > > > > > >Git
> > > > > Bash,
> > > > > > > > >Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
> > > > > > > > >development, and
> > > > no
> > > > > > > > >full
> > > > > > > > >blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
> > > > > > > > >this and
> > > > as
> > > > > > > > >Visual
> > > > > > > > >Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
> > > > > > > > >survey
> > > > > > results
> > > > > > > > >improve.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> > > > D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> > > > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> Absolutely right :-)
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
> > > > developers
> > > > > > > > >using
> > > > > > > > >> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
> > > nothing
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > >the
> > > > > > > > >> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> > > > JS->Native->JS
> > > > > > > > >bridge.
> > > > > > > > >> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> > > > communitcation
> > > > > > > > >with
> > > > > > > > >> plugins.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
> > > > special
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > > >> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
> > > which
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > > >not
> > > > > > > > >> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
> > > > > > > > >> that
> > > :-)
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
> > > > > > > > >> of the
> > > > > > > > >cordova
> > > > > > > > >> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Daniel Toplak
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > > > > > > > >> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> > > > > > > > >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> > > > > > > > >> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> > > > > > > > >> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
> > > > > > > > >> developers
> > > > happy?
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
> > > > > > > > >> because
> > > > > > > > >everyone can
> > > > > > > > >> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> > > > applications
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > >> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
> > > application
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > >> another company, you're probably going to end up
> > > > > > > > >> re-writing it
> > > > and
> > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > >> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
> > > > > > > > >> natively
> > > > because
> > > > > > > > >that's
> > > > > > > > >> what you're more comfortable with.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
> > > > > > > > >> soon, and
> > > > > both
> > > > > > > > >those
> > > > > > > > >> technologies share the same property that anyone can
> > > > > > > > >> create a
> > > > > shitty
> > > > > > > > >> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
> > > > > > > > >> a
> > > > > reason,
> > > > > > > > >and at
> > > > > > > > >> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
> > > > > > > > >> because I
> > > > > think
> > > > > > > > >Drupal
> > > > > > > > >> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
> > > > > > > > >> don't
> > > > think
> > > > > we
> > > > > > > > >should
> > > > > > > > >> care what developers say in a survey, since most
> > > > > > > > >> developers
> > > are
> > > > > > > > >terrible
> > > > > > > > >> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
> > > > > > > > >> releasing
> > > > isn't
> > > > > > > > >terrible.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> > > > > > > > ><le...@intel.com>
> > > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
> > > > > > > > >> > (
> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
> > ).
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > > > > > > > >> > Salesforce 73.2%
> > > > > > > > >> > Visual Basic 72.0%
> > > > > > > > >> > Wordpress 68.2%
> > > > > > > > >> > Matlab 65.6%
> > > > > > > > >> > Sharepoint 62.8%
> > > > > > > > >> > LAMP 62.2%
> > > > > > > > >> > Perl 59.2%
> > > > > > > > >> > Cordova 58.8%
> > **************
> > > > > > > > >> > Coffeescript 54.7%
> > > > > > > > >> > Other 57.3%
> > > > > > > > >> > % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
> > > > > > > > >> > but
> > > > have
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > >> > expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
> > > > > > > > >> > possible
> > > > > answers.
> > > > > > > > >> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
> > > > > > > > >> > rather
> > > > > looking
> > > > > > > > >for
> > > > > > > > >> > feedback from those who have heard developers express
> > > > > frustration
> > > > > > > > >with
> > > > > > > > >> Cordova:
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > * There is no problem - unclear question led to
> the
> > > > > answer
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > * The problem is really about creating native
> apps
> > in
> > > > > > > > >JavaScript +
> > > > > > > > >> > HTML5
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > * Cordova CLI has a quality problem
> (learnability |
> > > > > > > > >usability |
> > > > > > > > >> > reliability)
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > o Too hard to set up development environment
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > o The command CLI is too complicated
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > o Not enough learning material (documentation,
> articles,
> > > > > books)
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > o Too many bugs
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > o Changes too frequently
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > Leo
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Tyler Freeman
> > > > > > > > CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sent from mobile
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Cordialement,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Voltaire José-luc
> > > > > > > Directeur Technique
> > > > > > > Netdevices
> > > > > > > e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Carlos Santana
> > > > > <cs...@gmail.com>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Carlos Santana
> > > <cs...@gmail.com>
> > >
> >
>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 10:35 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
> Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it is
> offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and why *I*
> dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the Stack
> Overflow survey).
>
>
Did you intend this to go to me or the list, because based on the tone
you're using, I can't be sure. If you're looking to make a personal attack
on me publicly, then fine, go ahead. On this list, these comments only
reflect my own personal views. It's clear that people don't agree with me,
because we're still here.
Joe
Ross
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
> > influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions and
> > participation.
> >
> >
> That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are clearly
> people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to fight
> the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this project, and
> I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
>
>
> > To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way they
> > are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to propose
> > changes that work.
> >
> >
> Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose rules
> aren't as rigid. That could work too.
>
>
> > Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that.
> > Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are some
> > individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their
> > voices are usually drowned out.
> >
> >
> I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we donated
> the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been complained
> about so many times by our community members who have followed us since we
> started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people who feel
> like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to convince
> everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially since your
> organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts of the
> JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we haven't
> forked yet.
>
> Joe
>
> Ross
> >
> >
> > Sent from my Windows Phone
> > ________________________________
> > From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
> > Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
> > To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >
> > Joe,
> > Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while
> > at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
> >
> > Marcel,
> > I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk
> > to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
> > developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the
> > understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place like
> I layout in my email?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana <cs...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> > > > We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> > > >
> > > > 1. Use Github Issues
> > > > Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> > > > Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
> > > > corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing this
> > > > with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache hate
> > GitHub
> > > with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems
> > > just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to
> > > dump JIRA
> > and
> > > go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
> > > infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
> > > accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
> > > > Foundation,
> > to
> > > > another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
> > > > community
> > they
> > > > should still continue to interface in Github.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving
> > > the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to
> > > use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One thing
> > > that I think we
> > don't
> > > communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and how
> > these
> > > stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
> > > about
> > such
> > > a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
> > > > <st...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > As a survey it's always biased.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem
> > > > > is
> > > > clearly
> > > > > not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
> > > > > They
> > > think
> > > > > Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> > > > > Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web
> > > > > nor anything relative to the mobile.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
> > > > > of
> > them
> > > > are
> > > > > native :)
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Stéphane Bachelier,
> > > > > Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> > > > > B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> > > > >
> > > > > 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> > > > > jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> > > > > >:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
> > details
> > > > > about
> > > > > > how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the
> > > > > > work
> > > > done
> > > > > > and appreciate it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think
> > > > > > I am
> > > the
> > > > > > only one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
> > > > > > good as
> > > > native
> > > > > > ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
> > > > > > for
> > the
> > > > > apps I
> > > > > > work on!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Ty...@drumpants.com>:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think what colors people's perception the most is the
> > > > > > > graphics
> > > and
> > > > > > > interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
> > > > > > > possible
> > > > reasons:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
> > > > > > > years
> > > ago.
> > > > > Even
> > > > > > > though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
> > > > > > > still
> > > hang
> > > > in
> > > > > > > people's minds.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
> > > > > > > buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
> > > > > > > WebKit views,
> > but
> > > > > it's
> > > > > > > hard and takes a lot of work.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > * For instance, I came across an article once that
> > > > > > > recommended
> > > using
> > > > > CSS
> > > > > > > transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
> > > > > > > my
> > whole
> > > > way
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
> > > > > > > of
> > > it. I
> > > > > > think
> > > > > > > it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
> > > > > > > that
> > for
> > > > > > making
> > > > > > > top-notch apps.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
> > > > > > > their
> > > > iOS-style
> > > > > > > design straight to Android without considering that Android
> > > > > > > users
> > > > > expect
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
> > > > > > > about
> > > > this.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Tyler
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> > > > > > michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
> > > > > > > >score
> > is
> > > > low
> > > > > > > >because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
> > > > > > > >the
> > > > default
> > > > > > > >Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
> > > > > > > >Git
> > > > Bash,
> > > > > > > >Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
> > > > > > > >development, and
> > > no
> > > > > > > >full
> > > > > > > >blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
> > > > > > > >this and
> > > as
> > > > > > > >Visual
> > > > > > > >Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
> > > > > > > >survey
> > > > > results
> > > > > > > >improve.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> > > D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> > > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> Absolutely right :-)
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
> > > developers
> > > > > > > >using
> > > > > > > >> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
> > nothing
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > >the
> > > > > > > >> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> > > JS->Native->JS
> > > > > > > >bridge.
> > > > > > > >> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> > > communitcation
> > > > > > > >with
> > > > > > > >> plugins.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
> > > special
> > > > is
> > > > > > > >> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
> > which
> > > > are
> > > > > > > >not
> > > > > > > >> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
> > > > > > > >> that
> > :-)
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
> > > > > > > >> of the
> > > > > > > >cordova
> > > > > > > >> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Daniel Toplak
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > > > > > > >> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> > > > > > > >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> > > > > > > >> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> > > > > > > >> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
> > > > > > > >> developers
> > > happy?
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
> > > > > > > >> because
> > > > > > > >everyone can
> > > > > > > >> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> > > applications
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > >> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
> > application
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > >> another company, you're probably going to end up
> > > > > > > >> re-writing it
> > > and
> > > > > if
> > > > > > > >> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
> > > > > > > >> natively
> > > because
> > > > > > > >that's
> > > > > > > >> what you're more comfortable with.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
> > > > > > > >> soon, and
> > > > both
> > > > > > > >those
> > > > > > > >> technologies share the same property that anyone can
> > > > > > > >> create a
> > > > shitty
> > > > > > > >> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
> > > > > > > >> a
> > > > reason,
> > > > > > > >and at
> > > > > > > >> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
> > > > > > > >> because I
> > > > think
> > > > > > > >Drupal
> > > > > > > >> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
> > > > > > > >> don't
> > > think
> > > > we
> > > > > > > >should
> > > > > > > >> care what developers say in a survey, since most
> > > > > > > >> developers
> > are
> > > > > > > >terrible
> > > > > > > >> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
> > > > > > > >> releasing
> > > isn't
> > > > > > > >terrible.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> > > > > > > ><le...@intel.com>
> > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
> > > > > > > >> > ( http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015
> ).
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > > > > > > >> > Salesforce 73.2%
> > > > > > > >> > Visual Basic 72.0%
> > > > > > > >> > Wordpress 68.2%
> > > > > > > >> > Matlab 65.6%
> > > > > > > >> > Sharepoint 62.8%
> > > > > > > >> > LAMP 62.2%
> > > > > > > >> > Perl 59.2%
> > > > > > > >> > Cordova 58.8%
> **************
> > > > > > > >> > Coffeescript 54.7%
> > > > > > > >> > Other 57.3%
> > > > > > > >> > % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
> > > > > > > >> > but
> > > have
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > >> > expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
> > > > > > > >> > possible
> > > > answers.
> > > > > > > >> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
> > > > > > > >> > rather
> > > > looking
> > > > > > > >for
> > > > > > > >> > feedback from those who have heard developers express
> > > > frustration
> > > > > > > >with
> > > > > > > >> Cordova:
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > * There is no problem - unclear question led to the
> > > > answer
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > * The problem is really about creating native apps
> in
> > > > > > > >JavaScript +
> > > > > > > >> > HTML5
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > * Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability |
> > > > > > > >usability |
> > > > > > > >> > reliability)
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > o Too hard to set up development environment
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > o The command CLI is too complicated
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > o Not enough learning material (documentation, articles,
> > > > books)
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > o Too many bugs
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > o Changes too frequently
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > Leo
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Tyler Freeman
> > > > > > > CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sent from mobile
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Cordialement,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Voltaire José-luc
> > > > > > Directeur Technique
> > > > > > Netdevices
> > > > > > e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Carlos Santana
> > > > <cs...@gmail.com>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Carlos Santana
> > <cs...@gmail.com>
> >
>
RE: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
Firstly, don't call someone a liar simply because you disagree, it is offensive and exactly the kind of behavior I am referring to (and why *I* dread ever posting to this list, shame that question wasn't in the Stack Overflow survey).
I repeat again, if you believe a Member (outside or inside this community) then you are wrong. The ASF is about merit and people earn merit through contribution. If you want to influence ASF policy then contribute *to* it rather than complain *about* it.
Finally, consider this... I've had a number of off list "thank you" responses to my earlier mail and other similar mails in the past. I always ask those individuals to post publicly but most never do. I don't embarrass people by asking why not, but I do invite members of this community to consider why there is a silent majority and a noisy minority. Then re-read my first sentence above.
Ross
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2015 9:28 AM
To: dev@cordova.apache.org
Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions and
> participation.
>
>
That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are clearly people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to fight the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this project, and I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way they
> are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to propose
> changes that work.
>
>
Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose rules aren't as rigid. That could work too.
> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that.
> Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are some
> individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their
> voices are usually drowned out.
>
>
I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we donated the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been complained about so many times by our community members who have followed us since we started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people who feel like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to convince everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially since your organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts of the JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we haven't forked yet.
Joe
Ross
>
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>
> Joe,
> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while
> at the same time without being punched in the face :-)
>
> Marcel,
> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk
> to Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova
> developers to see if what is the possibility to use github with the
> understanding that there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place like I layout in my email?
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana <cs...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> > > We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> > >
> > > 1. Use Github Issues
> > > Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> > > Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
> > > corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing this
> > > with mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> > >
> > >
> > I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache hate
> GitHub
> > with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems
> > just getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to
> > dump JIRA
> and
> > go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
> > infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less
> > accessible to our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache
> > > Foundation,
> to
> > > another open source Foundation? That should not affect the
> > > community
> they
> > > should still continue to interface in Github.
> > >
> > >
> > Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving
> > the ASF would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to
> > use GitHub for everything again like when Nitobi existed. One thing
> > that I think we
> don't
> > communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and how
> these
> > stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared
> > about
> such
> > a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef
> > > <st...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > As a survey it's always biased.
> > > >
> > > > I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem
> > > > is
> > > clearly
> > > > not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this.
> > > > They
> > think
> > > > Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> > > > Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web
> > > > nor anything relative to the mobile.
> > > >
> > > > There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most
> > > > of
> them
> > > are
> > > > native :)
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Stéphane Bachelier,
> > > > Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> > > > B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> > > >
> > > > 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> > > > jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> > > > >:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> > > > >
> > > > > I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
> details
> > > > about
> > > > > how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the
> > > > > work
> > > done
> > > > > and appreciate it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think
> > > > > I am
> > the
> > > > > only one.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as
> > > > > good as
> > > native
> > > > > ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do
> > > > > for
> the
> > > > apps I
> > > > > work on!
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> > > > >
> > > > > 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Ty...@drumpants.com>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I think what colors people's perception the most is the
> > > > > > graphics
> > and
> > > > > > interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few
> > > > > > possible
> > > reasons:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3
> > > > > > years
> > ago.
> > > > Even
> > > > > > though it's improved so much since then, those first apps
> > > > > > still
> > hang
> > > in
> > > > > > people's minds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth,
> > > > > > buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern
> > > > > > WebKit views,
> but
> > > > it's
> > > > > > hard and takes a lot of work.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * For instance, I came across an article once that
> > > > > > recommended
> > using
> > > > CSS
> > > > > > transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed
> > > > > > my
> whole
> > > way
> > > > > of
> > > > > > thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because
> > > > > > of
> > it. I
> > > > > think
> > > > > > it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like
> > > > > > that
> for
> > > > > making
> > > > > > top-notch apps.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port
> > > > > > their
> > > iOS-style
> > > > > > design straight to Android without considering that Android
> > > > > > users
> > > > expect
> > > > > a
> > > > > > completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do
> > > > > > about
> > > this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tyler
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> > > > > michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the
> > > > > > >score
> is
> > > low
> > > > > > >because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and
> > > > > > >the
> > > default
> > > > > > >Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional -
> > > > > > >Git
> > > Bash,
> > > > > > >Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven
> > > > > > >development, and
> > no
> > > > > > >full
> > > > > > >blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving
> > > > > > >this and
> > as
> > > > > > >Visual
> > > > > > >Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
> > > > > > >survey
> > > > results
> > > > > > >improve.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> > D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> Absolutely right :-)
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
> > developers
> > > > > > >using
> > > > > > >> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
> nothing
> > > > about
> > > > > > >the
> > > > > > >> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> > JS->Native->JS
> > > > > > >bridge.
> > > > > > >> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> > communitcation
> > > > > > >with
> > > > > > >> plugins.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
> > special
> > > is
> > > > > > >> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
> which
> > > are
> > > > > > >not
> > > > > > >> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of
> > > > > > >> that
> :-)
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power
> > > > > > >> of the
> > > > > > >cordova
> > > > > > >> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Daniel Toplak
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > > > > > >> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> > > > > > >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> > > > > > >> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> > > > > > >> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
> > > > > > >> developers
> > happy?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development,
> > > > > > >> because
> > > > > > >everyone can
> > > > > > >> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> > applications
> > > > is
> > > > > > >> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
> application
> > > > from
> > > > > > >> another company, you're probably going to end up
> > > > > > >> re-writing it
> > and
> > > > if
> > > > > > >> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it
> > > > > > >> natively
> > because
> > > > > > >that's
> > > > > > >> what you're more comfortable with.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time
> > > > > > >> soon, and
> > > both
> > > > > > >those
> > > > > > >> technologies share the same property that anyone can
> > > > > > >> create a
> > > shitty
> > > > > > >> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for
> > > > > > >> a
> > > reason,
> > > > > > >and at
> > > > > > >> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult
> > > > > > >> because I
> > > think
> > > > > > >Drupal
> > > > > > >> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I
> > > > > > >> don't
> > think
> > > we
> > > > > > >should
> > > > > > >> care what developers say in a survey, since most
> > > > > > >> developers
> are
> > > > > > >terrible
> > > > > > >> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're
> > > > > > >> releasing
> > isn't
> > > > > > >terrible.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> > > > > > ><le...@intel.com>
> > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey
> > > > > > >> > ( http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > > > > > >> > Salesforce 73.2%
> > > > > > >> > Visual Basic 72.0%
> > > > > > >> > Wordpress 68.2%
> > > > > > >> > Matlab 65.6%
> > > > > > >> > Sharepoint 62.8%
> > > > > > >> > LAMP 62.2%
> > > > > > >> > Perl 59.2%
> > > > > > >> > Cordova 58.8% **************
> > > > > > >> > Coffeescript 54.7%
> > > > > > >> > Other 57.3%
> > > > > > >> > % of devs who are developing with the language or tech
> > > > > > >> > but
> > have
> > > > not
> > > > > > >> > expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some
> > > > > > >> > possible
> > > answers.
> > > > > > >> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but
> > > > > > >> > rather
> > > looking
> > > > > > >for
> > > > > > >> > feedback from those who have heard developers express
> > > frustration
> > > > > > >with
> > > > > > >> Cordova:
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > * There is no problem - unclear question led to the
> > > answer
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > * The problem is really about creating native apps in
> > > > > > >JavaScript +
> > > > > > >> > HTML5
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > * Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability |
> > > > > > >usability |
> > > > > > >> > reliability)
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > o Too hard to set up development environment
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > o The command CLI is too complicated
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > o Not enough learning material (documentation, articles,
> > > books)
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > o Too many bugs
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > o Changes too frequently
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Leo
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tyler Freeman
> > > > > > CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sent from mobile
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Cordialement,
> > > > >
> > > > > Voltaire José-luc
> > > > > Directeur Technique
> > > > > Netdevices
> > > > > e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Carlos Santana
> > > <cs...@gmail.com>
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Carlos Santana
> <cs...@gmail.com>
>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:13 AM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) <
Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional
> influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions and
> participation.
>
>
That's a lie that we've seen played out numerous times. There are clearly
people who bully people in project to fall into line. We've had to fight
the ASF every single time we wanted to do anything with this project, and
I'm expecting us to fight the ASF again until we eventually leave.
> To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way they are
> and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to propose changes
> that work.
>
>
Or we could just leave the ASF and find a different foundation whose rules
aren't as rigid. That could work too.
> Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that. Instead
> it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are some individuals
> who certainly do not fit into this category, but their voices are usually
> drowned out.
>
>
I'm very proud of my record of fighting the ASF. I regret that we donated
the PhoneGap code to Cordova, since "The Apache Way" has been complained
about so many times by our community members who have followed us since we
started this thing. However, we're stuck here now, and the people who feel
like working with the ASF are doing so. You're never going to convince
everyone our community that the ASF is a good thing, especially since your
organization has been passively aggressively attacking various parts of the
JS community for years. Honestly, I think it's a miracle that we haven't
forked yet.
Joe
Ross
>
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
> Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>
> Joe,
> Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while at the
> same time without being punched in the face :-)
>
> Marcel,
> I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk to
> Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova developers to
> see if what is the possibility to use github with the understanding that
> there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place like I layout in my email?
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana <cs...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> > > We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> > >
> > > 1. Use Github Issues
> > > Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> > > Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
> > > corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing this with
> > > mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> > >
> > >
> > I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache hate
> GitHub
> > with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems just
> > getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to dump JIRA
> and
> > go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
> > infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less accessible to
> > our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache Foundation,
> to
> > > another open source Foundation? That should not affect the community
> they
> > > should still continue to interface in Github.
> > >
> > >
> > Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving the ASF
> > would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to use GitHub for
> > everything again like when Nitobi existed. One thing that I think we
> don't
> > communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and how
> these
> > stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared about
> such
> > a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef <st...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > As a survey it's always biased.
> > > >
> > > > I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem is
> > > clearly
> > > > not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this. They
> > think
> > > > Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> > > > Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web nor
> > > > anything relative to the mobile.
> > > >
> > > > There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most of
> them
> > > are
> > > > native :)
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Stéphane Bachelier,
> > > > Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> > > > B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> > > >
> > > > 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> > > > jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> > > > >:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> > > > >
> > > > > I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the
> details
> > > > about
> > > > > how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the work
> > > done
> > > > > and appreciate it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think I am
> > the
> > > > > only one.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as good as
> > > native
> > > > > ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do for
> the
> > > > apps I
> > > > > work on!
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> > > > >
> > > > > 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Ty...@drumpants.com>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I think what colors people's perception the most is the graphics
> > and
> > > > > > interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few possible
> > > reasons:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3 years
> > ago.
> > > > Even
> > > > > > though it's improved so much since then, those first apps still
> > hang
> > > in
> > > > > > people's minds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth, buttery
> > > > > > animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern WebKit views,
> but
> > > > it's
> > > > > > hard and takes a lot of work.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * For instance, I came across an article once that recommended
> > using
> > > > CSS
> > > > > > transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed my
> whole
> > > way
> > > > > of
> > > > > > thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because of
> > it. I
> > > > > think
> > > > > > it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like that
> for
> > > > > making
> > > > > > top-notch apps.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port their
> > > iOS-style
> > > > > > design straight to Android without considering that Android users
> > > > expect
> > > > > a
> > > > > > completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do about
> > > this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tyler
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> > > > > michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the score
> is
> > > low
> > > > > > >because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and the
> > > default
> > > > > > >Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional - Git
> > > Bash,
> > > > > > >Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven development, and
> > no
> > > > > > >full
> > > > > > >blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving this and
> > as
> > > > > > >Visual
> > > > > > >Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those survey
> > > > results
> > > > > > >improve.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> > D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> Absolutely right :-)
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
> > developers
> > > > > > >using
> > > > > > >> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing
> nothing
> > > > about
> > > > > > >the
> > > > > > >> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> > JS->Native->JS
> > > > > > >bridge.
> > > > > > >> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> > communitcation
> > > > > > >with
> > > > > > >> plugins.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
> > special
> > > is
> > > > > > >> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs
> which
> > > are
> > > > > > >not
> > > > > > >> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of that
> :-)
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power of the
> > > > > > >cordova
> > > > > > >> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Daniel Toplak
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > > > > > >> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> > > > > > >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> > > > > > >> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> > > > > > >> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
> > happy?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development, because
> > > > > > >everyone can
> > > > > > >> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> > applications
> > > > is
> > > > > > >> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova
> application
> > > > from
> > > > > > >> another company, you're probably going to end up re-writing it
> > and
> > > > if
> > > > > > >> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it natively
> > because
> > > > > > >that's
> > > > > > >> what you're more comfortable with.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time soon, and
> > > both
> > > > > > >those
> > > > > > >> technologies share the same property that anyone can create a
> > > shitty
> > > > > > >> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for a
> > > reason,
> > > > > > >and at
> > > > > > >> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult because I
> > > think
> > > > > > >Drupal
> > > > > > >> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I don't
> > think
> > > we
> > > > > > >should
> > > > > > >> care what developers say in a survey, since most developers
> are
> > > > > > >terrible
> > > > > > >> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're releasing
> > isn't
> > > > > > >terrible.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> > > > > > ><le...@intel.com>
> > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey (
> > > > > > >> > http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > > > > > >> > Salesforce 73.2%
> > > > > > >> > Visual Basic 72.0%
> > > > > > >> > Wordpress 68.2%
> > > > > > >> > Matlab 65.6%
> > > > > > >> > Sharepoint 62.8%
> > > > > > >> > LAMP 62.2%
> > > > > > >> > Perl 59.2%
> > > > > > >> > Cordova 58.8% **************
> > > > > > >> > Coffeescript 54.7%
> > > > > > >> > Other 57.3%
> > > > > > >> > % of devs who are developing with the language or tech but
> > have
> > > > not
> > > > > > >> > expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some possible
> > > answers.
> > > > > > >> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but rather
> > > looking
> > > > > > >for
> > > > > > >> > feedback from those who have heard developers express
> > > frustration
> > > > > > >with
> > > > > > >> Cordova:
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > * There is no problem - unclear question led to the
> > > answer
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > * The problem is really about creating native apps in
> > > > > > >JavaScript +
> > > > > > >> > HTML5
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > * Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability |
> > > > > > >usability |
> > > > > > >> > reliability)
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > o Too hard to set up development environment
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > o The command CLI is too complicated
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > o Not enough learning material (documentation, articles,
> > > books)
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > o Too many bugs
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > o Changes too frequently
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Leo
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tyler Freeman
> > > > > > CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sent from mobile
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Cordialement,
> > > > >
> > > > > Voltaire José-luc
> > > > > Directeur Technique
> > > > > Netdevices
> > > > > e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Carlos Santana
> > > <cs...@gmail.com>
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Carlos Santana
> <cs...@gmail.com>
>
RE: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
How about the community insist on a positive and constructive tone rather than this inflammatory and miss-informed rhetoric.
There are no "powers that be". Bring a member brings no additional influence. What matters around here is constructive contributions and participation.
To be constructive one needs to understand why things are the way they are and, if they don't fit, one needs to work with people to propose changes that work.
Historically this project has had real difficulty doing just that. Instead it has focused on negativity and mud slinging (there are some individuals who certainly do not fit into this category, but their voices are usually drowned out.
Ross
Sent from my Windows Phone
________________________________
From: Carlos Santana<ma...@gmail.com>
Sent: 4/9/2015 9:00 AM
To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Joe,
Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while at the
same time without being punched in the face :-)
Marcel,
I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk to
Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova developers to
see if what is the possibility to use github with the understanding that
there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place like I layout in my email?
On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana <cs...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> > We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> >
> > 1. Use Github Issues
> > Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> > Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
> > corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing this with
> > mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> >
> >
> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache hate GitHub
> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems just
> getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to dump JIRA and
> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less accessible to
> our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
>
>
> >
> > Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache Foundation, to
> > another open source Foundation? That should not affect the community they
> > should still continue to interface in Github.
> >
> >
> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving the ASF
> would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to use GitHub for
> everything again like when Nitobi existed. One thing that I think we don't
> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and how these
> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared about such
> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef <st...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > As a survey it's always biased.
> > >
> > > I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem is
> > clearly
> > > not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this. They
> think
> > > Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> > > Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web nor
> > > anything relative to the mobile.
> > >
> > > There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most of them
> > are
> > > native :)
> > >
> > > --
> > > Stéphane Bachelier,
> > > Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> > > B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> > >
> > > 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> > > jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> > > >:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> > > >
> > > > I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the details
> > > about
> > > > how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the work
> > done
> > > > and appreciate it.
> > > >
> > > > I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think I am
> the
> > > > only one.
> > > >
> > > > I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as good as
> > native
> > > > ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do for the
> > > apps I
> > > > work on!
> > > >
> > > > Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> > > >
> > > > 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Ty...@drumpants.com>:
> > > >
> > > > > I think what colors people's perception the most is the graphics
> and
> > > > > interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few possible
> > reasons:
> > > > >
> > > > > * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3 years
> ago.
> > > Even
> > > > > though it's improved so much since then, those first apps still
> hang
> > in
> > > > > people's minds.
> > > > >
> > > > > * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth, buttery
> > > > > animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern WebKit views, but
> > > it's
> > > > > hard and takes a lot of work.
> > > > >
> > > > > * For instance, I came across an article once that recommended
> using
> > > CSS
> > > > > transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed my whole
> > way
> > > > of
> > > > > thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because of
> it. I
> > > > think
> > > > > it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like that for
> > > > making
> > > > > top-notch apps.
> > > > >
> > > > > * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port their
> > iOS-style
> > > > > design straight to Android without considering that Android users
> > > expect
> > > > a
> > > > > completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do about
> > this.
> > > > >
> > > > > Tyler
> > > > >
> > > > > On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> > > > michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the score is
> > low
> > > > > >because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and the
> > default
> > > > > >Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional - Git
> > Bash,
> > > > > >Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven development, and
> no
> > > > > >full
> > > > > >blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving this and
> as
> > > > > >Visual
> > > > > >Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those survey
> > > results
> > > > > >improve.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Absolutely right :-)
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
> developers
> > > > > >using
> > > > > >> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing nothing
> > > about
> > > > > >the
> > > > > >> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> JS->Native->JS
> > > > > >bridge.
> > > > > >> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> communitcation
> > > > > >with
> > > > > >> plugins.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
> special
> > is
> > > > > >> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs which
> > are
> > > > > >not
> > > > > >> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of that :-)
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power of the
> > > > > >cordova
> > > > > >> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Daniel Toplak
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > > > > >> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> > > > > >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> > > > > >> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> > > > > >> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
> happy?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development, because
> > > > > >everyone can
> > > > > >> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> applications
> > > is
> > > > > >> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova application
> > > from
> > > > > >> another company, you're probably going to end up re-writing it
> and
> > > if
> > > > > >> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it natively
> because
> > > > > >that's
> > > > > >> what you're more comfortable with.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time soon, and
> > both
> > > > > >those
> > > > > >> technologies share the same property that anyone can create a
> > shitty
> > > > > >> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for a
> > reason,
> > > > > >and at
> > > > > >> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult because I
> > think
> > > > > >Drupal
> > > > > >> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I don't
> think
> > we
> > > > > >should
> > > > > >> care what developers say in a survey, since most developers are
> > > > > >terrible
> > > > > >> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're releasing
> isn't
> > > > > >terrible.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> > > > > ><le...@intel.com>
> > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey (
> > > > > >> > http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > > > > >> > Salesforce 73.2%
> > > > > >> > Visual Basic 72.0%
> > > > > >> > Wordpress 68.2%
> > > > > >> > Matlab 65.6%
> > > > > >> > Sharepoint 62.8%
> > > > > >> > LAMP 62.2%
> > > > > >> > Perl 59.2%
> > > > > >> > Cordova 58.8% **************
> > > > > >> > Coffeescript 54.7%
> > > > > >> > Other 57.3%
> > > > > >> > % of devs who are developing with the language or tech but
> have
> > > not
> > > > > >> > expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some possible
> > answers.
> > > > > >> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but rather
> > looking
> > > > > >for
> > > > > >> > feedback from those who have heard developers express
> > frustration
> > > > > >with
> > > > > >> Cordova:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > * There is no problem - unclear question led to the
> > answer
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > * The problem is really about creating native apps in
> > > > > >JavaScript +
> > > > > >> > HTML5
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > * Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability |
> > > > > >usability |
> > > > > >> > reliability)
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > o Too hard to set up development environment
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > o The command CLI is too complicated
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > o Not enough learning material (documentation, articles,
> > books)
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > o Too many bugs
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > o Changes too frequently
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Leo
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > Tyler Freeman
> > > > > CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent from mobile
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Cordialement,
> > > >
> > > > Voltaire José-luc
> > > > Directeur Technique
> > > > Netdevices
> > > > e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Carlos Santana
> > <cs...@gmail.com>
> >
>
--
Carlos Santana
<cs...@gmail.com>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Carlos Santana <cs...@gmail.com>.
Joe,
Well I want to try again and see if we can get what we want, while at the
same time without being punched in the face :-)
Marcel,
I know you got appointed in Apache Foundation recently can you talk to
Apache/Infra guys and try with the fury of a million cordova developers to
see if what is the possibility to use github with the understanding that
there is backup, syncing, and archiving in place like I layout in my email?
On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana <cs...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> > We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
> >
> > 1. Use Github Issues
> > Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> > Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
> > corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing this with
> > mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
> >
> >
> I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache hate GitHub
> with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems just
> getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to dump JIRA and
> go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
> infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less accessible to
> our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
>
>
> >
> > Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache Foundation, to
> > another open source Foundation? That should not affect the community they
> > should still continue to interface in Github.
> >
> >
> Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving the ASF
> would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to use GitHub for
> everything again like when Nitobi existed. One thing that I think we don't
> communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and how these
> stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared about such
> a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef <st...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > As a survey it's always biased.
> > >
> > > I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem is
> > clearly
> > > not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this. They
> think
> > > Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> > > Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web nor
> > > anything relative to the mobile.
> > >
> > > There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most of them
> > are
> > > native :)
> > >
> > > --
> > > Stéphane Bachelier,
> > > Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> > > B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> > >
> > > 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> > > jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> > > >:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> > > >
> > > > I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the details
> > > about
> > > > how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the work
> > done
> > > > and appreciate it.
> > > >
> > > > I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think I am
> the
> > > > only one.
> > > >
> > > > I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as good as
> > native
> > > > ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do for the
> > > apps I
> > > > work on!
> > > >
> > > > Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> > > >
> > > > 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Ty...@drumpants.com>:
> > > >
> > > > > I think what colors people's perception the most is the graphics
> and
> > > > > interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few possible
> > reasons:
> > > > >
> > > > > * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3 years
> ago.
> > > Even
> > > > > though it's improved so much since then, those first apps still
> hang
> > in
> > > > > people's minds.
> > > > >
> > > > > * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth, buttery
> > > > > animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern WebKit views, but
> > > it's
> > > > > hard and takes a lot of work.
> > > > >
> > > > > * For instance, I came across an article once that recommended
> using
> > > CSS
> > > > > transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed my whole
> > way
> > > > of
> > > > > thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because of
> it. I
> > > > think
> > > > > it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like that for
> > > > making
> > > > > top-notch apps.
> > > > >
> > > > > * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port their
> > iOS-style
> > > > > design straight to Android without considering that Android users
> > > expect
> > > > a
> > > > > completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do about
> > this.
> > > > >
> > > > > Tyler
> > > > >
> > > > > On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> > > > michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the score is
> > low
> > > > > >because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and the
> > default
> > > > > >Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional - Git
> > Bash,
> > > > > >Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven development, and
> no
> > > > > >full
> > > > > >blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving this and
> as
> > > > > >Visual
> > > > > >Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those survey
> > > results
> > > > > >improve.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <
> D.Toplak@cadenas.de>
> > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Absolutely right :-)
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the
> developers
> > > > > >using
> > > > > >> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing nothing
> > > about
> > > > > >the
> > > > > >> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the
> JS->Native->JS
> > > > > >bridge.
> > > > > >> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos
> communitcation
> > > > > >with
> > > > > >> plugins.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything
> special
> > is
> > > > > >> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs which
> > are
> > > > > >not
> > > > > >> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of that :-)
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power of the
> > > > > >cordova
> > > > > >> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Daniel Toplak
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > > > > >> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> > > > > >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> > > > > >> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> > > > > >> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
> happy?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development, because
> > > > > >everyone can
> > > > > >> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova
> applications
> > > is
> > > > > >> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova application
> > > from
> > > > > >> another company, you're probably going to end up re-writing it
> and
> > > if
> > > > > >> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it natively
> because
> > > > > >that's
> > > > > >> what you're more comfortable with.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time soon, and
> > both
> > > > > >those
> > > > > >> technologies share the same property that anyone can create a
> > shitty
> > > > > >> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for a
> > reason,
> > > > > >and at
> > > > > >> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult because I
> > think
> > > > > >Drupal
> > > > > >> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I don't
> think
> > we
> > > > > >should
> > > > > >> care what developers say in a survey, since most developers are
> > > > > >terrible
> > > > > >> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're releasing
> isn't
> > > > > >terrible.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> > > > > ><le...@intel.com>
> > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey (
> > > > > >> > http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > > > > >> > Salesforce 73.2%
> > > > > >> > Visual Basic 72.0%
> > > > > >> > Wordpress 68.2%
> > > > > >> > Matlab 65.6%
> > > > > >> > Sharepoint 62.8%
> > > > > >> > LAMP 62.2%
> > > > > >> > Perl 59.2%
> > > > > >> > Cordova 58.8% **************
> > > > > >> > Coffeescript 54.7%
> > > > > >> > Other 57.3%
> > > > > >> > % of devs who are developing with the language or tech but
> have
> > > not
> > > > > >> > expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some possible
> > answers.
> > > > > >> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but rather
> > looking
> > > > > >for
> > > > > >> > feedback from those who have heard developers express
> > frustration
> > > > > >with
> > > > > >> Cordova:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > * There is no problem - unclear question led to the
> > answer
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > * The problem is really about creating native apps in
> > > > > >JavaScript +
> > > > > >> > HTML5
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > * Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability |
> > > > > >usability |
> > > > > >> > reliability)
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > o Too hard to set up development environment
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > o The command CLI is too complicated
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > o Not enough learning material (documentation, articles,
> > books)
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > o Too many bugs
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > o Changes too frequently
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Leo
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > Tyler Freeman
> > > > > CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent from mobile
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Cordialement,
> > > >
> > > > Voltaire José-luc
> > > > Directeur Technique
> > > > Netdevices
> > > > e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Carlos Santana
> > <cs...@gmail.com>
> >
>
--
Carlos Santana
<cs...@gmail.com>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM Carlos Santana <cs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>
> 1. Use Github Issues
> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing this with
> mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>
>
I don't know if this is allowed. The powers that be at Apache hate GitHub
with the fury of a thousand suns. We already have enough problems just
getting our code to be reflected on GitHub. I would love to dump JIRA and
go back to GitHub issues, and I feel that the move to the Apache
infrastructure seriously hurt the project and made it less accessible to
our users and anyone who isn't an Apache neckbeard.
>
> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache Foundation, to
> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the community they
> should still continue to interface in Github.
>
>
Sadly, since we're not allowed to use GitHub this way, us leaving the ASF
would be welcomed by our users because we'd be allowed to use GitHub for
everything again like when Nitobi existed. One thing that I think we don't
communicate well enough is how much we hate the ASF policies and how these
stupid policies hurt our users. If I thought that the ASF cared about such
a thing, I would suggest that we communicate this more clearly.
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef <st...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > As a survey it's always biased.
> >
> > I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem is
> clearly
> > not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this. They think
> > Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> > Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web nor
> > anything relative to the mobile.
> >
> > There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most of them
> are
> > native :)
> >
> > --
> > Stéphane Bachelier,
> > Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> > B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> >
> > 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> > jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> > >:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> > >
> > > I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the details
> > about
> > > how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the work
> done
> > > and appreciate it.
> > >
> > > I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think I am the
> > > only one.
> > >
> > > I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as good as
> native
> > > ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do for the
> > apps I
> > > work on!
> > >
> > > Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> > >
> > > 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Ty...@drumpants.com>:
> > >
> > > > I think what colors people's perception the most is the graphics and
> > > > interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few possible
> reasons:
> > > >
> > > > * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3 years ago.
> > Even
> > > > though it's improved so much since then, those first apps still hang
> in
> > > > people's minds.
> > > >
> > > > * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth, buttery
> > > > animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern WebKit views, but
> > it's
> > > > hard and takes a lot of work.
> > > >
> > > > * For instance, I came across an article once that recommended using
> > CSS
> > > > transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed my whole
> way
> > > of
> > > > thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because of it. I
> > > think
> > > > it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like that for
> > > making
> > > > top-notch apps.
> > > >
> > > > * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port their
> iOS-style
> > > > design straight to Android without considering that Android users
> > expect
> > > a
> > > > completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do about
> this.
> > > >
> > > > Tyler
> > > >
> > > > On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> > > michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the score is
> low
> > > > >because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and the
> default
> > > > >Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional - Git
> Bash,
> > > > >Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven development, and no
> > > > >full
> > > > >blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving this and as
> > > > >Visual
> > > > >Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those survey
> > results
> > > > >improve.
> > > > >
> > > > >On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <D....@cadenas.de>
> > > > >wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Absolutely right :-)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the developers
> > > > >using
> > > > >> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing nothing
> > about
> > > > >the
> > > > >> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the JS->Native->JS
> > > > >bridge.
> > > > >> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos communitcation
> > > > >with
> > > > >> plugins.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything special
> is
> > > > >> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs which
> are
> > > > >not
> > > > >> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of that :-)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power of the
> > > > >cordova
> > > > >> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Daniel Toplak
> > > > >>
> > > > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > > > >> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> > > > >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> > > > >> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> > > > >> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development, because
> > > > >everyone can
> > > > >> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova applications
> > is
> > > > >> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova application
> > from
> > > > >> another company, you're probably going to end up re-writing it and
> > if
> > > > >> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it natively because
> > > > >that's
> > > > >> what you're more comfortable with.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time soon, and
> both
> > > > >those
> > > > >> technologies share the same property that anyone can create a
> shitty
> > > > >> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for a
> reason,
> > > > >and at
> > > > >> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult because I
> think
> > > > >Drupal
> > > > >> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I don't think
> we
> > > > >should
> > > > >> care what developers say in a survey, since most developers are
> > > > >terrible
> > > > >> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're releasing isn't
> > > > >terrible.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> > > > ><le...@intel.com>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey (
> > > > >> > http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > > > >> > Salesforce 73.2%
> > > > >> > Visual Basic 72.0%
> > > > >> > Wordpress 68.2%
> > > > >> > Matlab 65.6%
> > > > >> > Sharepoint 62.8%
> > > > >> > LAMP 62.2%
> > > > >> > Perl 59.2%
> > > > >> > Cordova 58.8% **************
> > > > >> > Coffeescript 54.7%
> > > > >> > Other 57.3%
> > > > >> > % of devs who are developing with the language or tech but have
> > not
> > > > >> > expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some possible
> answers.
> > > > >> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but rather
> looking
> > > > >for
> > > > >> > feedback from those who have heard developers express
> frustration
> > > > >with
> > > > >> Cordova:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > * There is no problem - unclear question led to the
> answer
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > * The problem is really about creating native apps in
> > > > >JavaScript +
> > > > >> > HTML5
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > * Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability |
> > > > >usability |
> > > > >> > reliability)
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > o Too hard to set up development environment
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > o The command CLI is too complicated
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > o Not enough learning material (documentation, articles,
> books)
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > o Too many bugs
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > o Changes too frequently
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Leo
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > > > Tyler Freeman
> > > > CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> > > >
> > > > Sent from mobile
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Cordialement,
> > >
> > > Voltaire José-luc
> > > Directeur Technique
> > > Netdevices
> > > e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Carlos Santana
> <cs...@gmail.com>
>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Hazem Saleh <ha...@gmail.com>.
I used jQM with Apache Cordova in a couple of projects "in production now" and it performed very well.
I agree that in Android 2.x, it looks slow especially in transitions between pages, in order to overcome this behavior, we just disabled transition effects in app startup and it performed very well.
There are definitely other optimization tips esp. for older versions of Android but disabling the transition effects really did a great impact.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Apr 9, 2015, at 4:31 PM, Raymond Camden <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Heh no worries - I'm comfortable being the last person on Earth who
> apparently still likes jQM. :)
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:15 AM, julio cesar sanchez
> <jc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Raymond, sorry for the j***** ****** part, I know you like it and write
>> about it.
>> The truth is I haven't tried the 1.4.5 version yet, I use 1.3.2 at work and
>> I don't feel it soo slow (I use fastClick too and we target android 4 or
>> greater)
>>
>> Just was talking about the questions I read on stackoverflow and *most* of
>> the question where they say "my cordova app is slow" the say they are using
>> that framework, but of course they don't mention the device where they are
>> testing, the version of the framework or the android version. I've seen *a
>> few* question where they ask "my cordova app is slow and I'm using ionic
>> framework", it's not always the framework fault.
>>
>>
>>
>> 2015-04-09 15:52 GMT+02:00 Carlos Santana <cs...@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> Julio this is a great report/list of current state of dev ux for developers
>>> using cordova in what ever form.
>>>
>>> I would be sad if this list get's buried in the mailing list. I would like
>>> to have place in some place (i.e. google doc) to brain storm actions to
>>> improve on some of those items.
>>>
>>> At least for me I have being doing some thinking lately in this space.
>>>
>>> I think one things to me is that I would like to see cordova have zero
>>> friction to open collaboration.
>>>
>>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
>>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>>>
>>> 1. Use Github Issues
>>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
>>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing this with
>>> mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>>>
>>> Ability to have a more open conversation, even cross referencing other open
>>> source project that can collaborate with cordova like npm, react-native,
>>> etc.. to solve common problems once with open standards and open source.
>>>
>>> potential for using issues tags, for auto taggin pr with apache icla,
>>> questions, etc..
>>>
>>> 2. Use Github Wiki
>>> Use Github Wiki instead of wiki.apache.org/cordova. Easier to read, easier
>>> to find and read for users. Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web
>>> hooks, or some other automated process.
>>>
>>> 3. Use Github Pages
>>> Cordova.io already is built with jekyll. Easier to maintain and easier to
>>> atract people to help out on blogs, ages, Docs
>>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github webhook or other automated
>>> process.
>>>
>>> 4. Simplify our message on cordova.io to hey! we do open source go to
>>> Github for everything.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure but the only rule that Apache imposes is that if Gihub decides
>>> to go down (;-p) or disappear the project can continue to work and data and
>>> history is preserved.
>>>
>>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache Foundation, to
>>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the community they
>>> should still continue to interface in Github.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef <st...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> As a survey it's always biased.
>>>>
>>>> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem is
>>> clearly
>>>> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this. They think
>>>> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
>>>> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web nor
>>>> anything relative to the mobile.
>>>>
>>>> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most of them
>>> are
>>>> native :)
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Stéphane Bachelier,
>>>> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
>>>> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
>>>>
>>>> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
>>>> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>>> :
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
>>>>>
>>>>> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the details
>>>> about
>>>>> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the work
>>> done
>>>>> and appreciate it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think I am the
>>>>> only one.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as good as
>>> native
>>>>> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do for the
>>>> apps I
>>>>> work on!
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
>>>>>
>>>>> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Ty...@drumpants.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think what colors people's perception the most is the graphics and
>>>>>> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few possible
>>> reasons:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3 years ago.
>>>> Even
>>>>>> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps still hang
>>> in
>>>>>> people's minds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth, buttery
>>>>>> animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern WebKit views, but
>>>> it's
>>>>>> hard and takes a lot of work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * For instance, I came across an article once that recommended using
>>>> CSS
>>>>>> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed my whole
>>> way
>>>>> of
>>>>>> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because of it. I
>>>>> think
>>>>>> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like that for
>>>>> making
>>>>>> top-notch apps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port their
>>> iOS-style
>>>>>> design straight to Android without considering that Android users
>>>> expect
>>>>> a
>>>>>> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do about
>>> this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tyler
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
>>>>> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the score is
>>> low
>>>>>>> because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and the
>>> default
>>>>>>> Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional - Git
>>> Bash,
>>>>>>> Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven development, and no
>>>>>>> full
>>>>>>> blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving this and as
>>>>>>> Visual
>>>>>>> Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those survey
>>>> results
>>>>>>> improve.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <D....@cadenas.de>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Absolutely right :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the developers
>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing nothing
>>>> about
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the JS->Native->JS
>>>>>>> bridge.
>>>>>>>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos communitcation
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> plugins.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything special
>>> is
>>>>>>>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs which
>>> are
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of that :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power of the
>>>>>>> cordova
>>>>>>>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Daniel Toplak
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>>>>>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
>>>>>>>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development, because
>>>>>>> everyone can
>>>>>>>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova applications
>>>> is
>>>>>>>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova application
>>>> from
>>>>>>>> another company, you're probably going to end up re-writing it and
>>>> if
>>>>>>>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it natively because
>>>>>>> that's
>>>>>>>> what you're more comfortable with.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time soon, and
>>> both
>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>> technologies share the same property that anyone can create a
>>> shitty
>>>>>>>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for a
>>> reason,
>>>>>>> and at
>>>>>>>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult because I
>>> think
>>>>>>> Drupal
>>>>>>>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I don't think
>>> we
>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>> care what developers say in a survey, since most developers are
>>>>>>> terrible
>>>>>>>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're releasing isn't
>>>>>>> terrible.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
>>>>>>> <le...@intel.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey (
>>>>>>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Most Dreaded technologies:
>>>>>>>>> Salesforce 73.2%
>>>>>>>>> Visual Basic 72.0%
>>>>>>>>> Wordpress 68.2%
>>>>>>>>> Matlab 65.6%
>>>>>>>>> Sharepoint 62.8%
>>>>>>>>> LAMP 62.2%
>>>>>>>>> Perl 59.2%
>>>>>>>>> Cordova 58.8% **************
>>>>>>>>> Coffeescript 54.7%
>>>>>>>>> Other 57.3%
>>>>>>>>> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech but have
>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some possible
>>> answers.
>>>>>>>>> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but rather
>>> looking
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> feedback from those who have heard developers express
>>> frustration
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> Cordova:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> * There is no problem - unclear question led to the
>>> answer
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> * The problem is really about creating native apps in
>>>>>>> JavaScript +
>>>>>>>>> HTML5
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability |
>>>>>>> usability |
>>>>>>>>> reliability)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> o Too hard to set up development environment
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> o The command CLI is too complicated
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> o Not enough learning material (documentation, articles,
>>> books)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> o Too many bugs
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> o Changes too frequently
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Leo
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tyler Freeman
>>>>>> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from mobile
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Cordialement,
>>>>>
>>>>> Voltaire José-luc
>>>>> Directeur Technique
>>>>> Netdevices
>>>>> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Carlos Santana
>>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
> --
> ===========================================================================
> Raymond Camden, Developer Advocate for MobileFirst at IBM
>
> Email : raymondcamden@gmail.com
> Blog : www.raymondcamden.com
> Twitter: raymondcamden
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Raymond Camden <ra...@gmail.com>.
Heh no worries - I'm comfortable being the last person on Earth who
apparently still likes jQM. :)
On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:15 AM, julio cesar sanchez
<jc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Raymond, sorry for the j***** ****** part, I know you like it and write
> about it.
> The truth is I haven't tried the 1.4.5 version yet, I use 1.3.2 at work and
> I don't feel it soo slow (I use fastClick too and we target android 4 or
> greater)
>
> Just was talking about the questions I read on stackoverflow and *most* of
> the question where they say "my cordova app is slow" the say they are using
> that framework, but of course they don't mention the device where they are
> testing, the version of the framework or the android version. I've seen *a
> few* question where they ask "my cordova app is slow and I'm using ionic
> framework", it's not always the framework fault.
>
>
>
> 2015-04-09 15:52 GMT+02:00 Carlos Santana <cs...@gmail.com>:
>
>> Julio this is a great report/list of current state of dev ux for developers
>> using cordova in what ever form.
>>
>> I would be sad if this list get's buried in the mailing list. I would like
>> to have place in some place (i.e. google doc) to brain storm actions to
>> improve on some of those items.
>>
>> At least for me I have being doing some thinking lately in this space.
>>
>> I think one things to me is that I would like to see cordova have zero
>> friction to open collaboration.
>>
>> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
>> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>>
>> 1. Use Github Issues
>> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
>> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing this with
>> mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>>
>> Ability to have a more open conversation, even cross referencing other open
>> source project that can collaborate with cordova like npm, react-native,
>> etc.. to solve common problems once with open standards and open source.
>>
>> potential for using issues tags, for auto taggin pr with apache icla,
>> questions, etc..
>>
>> 2. Use Github Wiki
>> Use Github Wiki instead of wiki.apache.org/cordova. Easier to read, easier
>> to find and read for users. Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web
>> hooks, or some other automated process.
>>
>> 3. Use Github Pages
>> Cordova.io already is built with jekyll. Easier to maintain and easier to
>> atract people to help out on blogs, ages, Docs
>> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github webhook or other automated
>> process.
>>
>> 4. Simplify our message on cordova.io to hey! we do open source go to
>> Github for everything.
>>
>> I'm not sure but the only rule that Apache imposes is that if Gihub decides
>> to go down (;-p) or disappear the project can continue to work and data and
>> history is preserved.
>>
>> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache Foundation, to
>> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the community they
>> should still continue to interface in Github.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef <st...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > As a survey it's always biased.
>> >
>> > I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem is
>> clearly
>> > not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this. They think
>> > Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
>> > Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web nor
>> > anything relative to the mobile.
>> >
>> > There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most of them
>> are
>> > native :)
>> >
>> > --
>> > Stéphane Bachelier,
>> > Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
>> > B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
>> >
>> > 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
>> > jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>> > >:
>> >
>> > > Hi,
>> > >
>> > > I am a developper and I use Cordova.
>> > >
>> > > I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the details
>> > about
>> > > how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the work
>> done
>> > > and appreciate it.
>> > >
>> > > I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think I am the
>> > > only one.
>> > >
>> > > I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as good as
>> native
>> > > ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do for the
>> > apps I
>> > > work on!
>> > >
>> > > Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
>> > >
>> > > 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Ty...@drumpants.com>:
>> > >
>> > > > I think what colors people's perception the most is the graphics and
>> > > > interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few possible
>> reasons:
>> > > >
>> > > > * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3 years ago.
>> > Even
>> > > > though it's improved so much since then, those first apps still hang
>> in
>> > > > people's minds.
>> > > >
>> > > > * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth, buttery
>> > > > animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern WebKit views, but
>> > it's
>> > > > hard and takes a lot of work.
>> > > >
>> > > > * For instance, I came across an article once that recommended using
>> > CSS
>> > > > transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed my whole
>> way
>> > > of
>> > > > thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because of it. I
>> > > think
>> > > > it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like that for
>> > > making
>> > > > top-notch apps.
>> > > >
>> > > > * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port their
>> iOS-style
>> > > > design straight to Android without considering that Android users
>> > expect
>> > > a
>> > > > completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do about
>> this.
>> > > >
>> > > > Tyler
>> > > >
>> > > > On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
>> > > michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > > >This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the score is
>> low
>> > > > >because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and the
>> default
>> > > > >Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional - Git
>> Bash,
>> > > > >Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven development, and no
>> > > > >full
>> > > > >blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving this and as
>> > > > >Visual
>> > > > >Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those survey
>> > results
>> > > > >improve.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <D....@cadenas.de>
>> > > > >wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >> Absolutely right :-)
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the developers
>> > > > >using
>> > > > >> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing nothing
>> > about
>> > > > >the
>> > > > >> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the JS->Native->JS
>> > > > >bridge.
>> > > > >> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos communitcation
>> > > > >with
>> > > > >> plugins.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything special
>> is
>> > > > >> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs which
>> are
>> > > > >not
>> > > > >> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of that :-)
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power of the
>> > > > >cordova
>> > > > >> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Daniel Toplak
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> > > > >> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>> > > > >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
>> > > > >> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>> > > > >> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development, because
>> > > > >everyone can
>> > > > >> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova applications
>> > is
>> > > > >> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova application
>> > from
>> > > > >> another company, you're probably going to end up re-writing it and
>> > if
>> > > > >> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it natively because
>> > > > >that's
>> > > > >> what you're more comfortable with.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time soon, and
>> both
>> > > > >those
>> > > > >> technologies share the same property that anyone can create a
>> shitty
>> > > > >> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for a
>> reason,
>> > > > >and at
>> > > > >> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult because I
>> think
>> > > > >Drupal
>> > > > >> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I don't think
>> we
>> > > > >should
>> > > > >> care what developers say in a survey, since most developers are
>> > > > >terrible
>> > > > >> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're releasing isn't
>> > > > >terrible.
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
>> > > > ><le...@intel.com>
>> > > > >> wrote:
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey (
>> > > > >> > http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > Most Dreaded technologies:
>> > > > >> > Salesforce 73.2%
>> > > > >> > Visual Basic 72.0%
>> > > > >> > Wordpress 68.2%
>> > > > >> > Matlab 65.6%
>> > > > >> > Sharepoint 62.8%
>> > > > >> > LAMP 62.2%
>> > > > >> > Perl 59.2%
>> > > > >> > Cordova 58.8% **************
>> > > > >> > Coffeescript 54.7%
>> > > > >> > Other 57.3%
>> > > > >> > % of devs who are developing with the language or tech but have
>> > not
>> > > > >> > expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some possible
>> answers.
>> > > > >> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but rather
>> looking
>> > > > >for
>> > > > >> > feedback from those who have heard developers express
>> frustration
>> > > > >with
>> > > > >> Cordova:
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > * There is no problem - unclear question led to the
>> answer
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > * The problem is really about creating native apps in
>> > > > >JavaScript +
>> > > > >> > HTML5
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > * Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability |
>> > > > >usability |
>> > > > >> > reliability)
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > o Too hard to set up development environment
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > o The command CLI is too complicated
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > o Not enough learning material (documentation, articles,
>> books)
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > o Too many bugs
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > o Changes too frequently
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > Leo
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >>
>> > > >
>> > > > Tyler Freeman
>> > > > CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>> > > >
>> > > > Sent from mobile
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Cordialement,
>> > >
>> > > Voltaire José-luc
>> > > Directeur Technique
>> > > Netdevices
>> > > e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Carlos Santana
>> <cs...@gmail.com>
>>
--
===========================================================================
Raymond Camden, Developer Advocate for MobileFirst at IBM
Email : raymondcamden@gmail.com
Blog : www.raymondcamden.com
Twitter: raymondcamden
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by julio cesar sanchez <jc...@gmail.com>.
Raymond, sorry for the j***** ****** part, I know you like it and write
about it.
The truth is I haven't tried the 1.4.5 version yet, I use 1.3.2 at work and
I don't feel it soo slow (I use fastClick too and we target android 4 or
greater)
Just was talking about the questions I read on stackoverflow and *most* of
the question where they say "my cordova app is slow" the say they are using
that framework, but of course they don't mention the device where they are
testing, the version of the framework or the android version. I've seen *a
few* question where they ask "my cordova app is slow and I'm using ionic
framework", it's not always the framework fault.
2015-04-09 15:52 GMT+02:00 Carlos Santana <cs...@gmail.com>:
> Julio this is a great report/list of current state of dev ux for developers
> using cordova in what ever form.
>
> I would be sad if this list get's buried in the mailing list. I would like
> to have place in some place (i.e. google doc) to brain storm actions to
> improve on some of those items.
>
> At least for me I have being doing some thinking lately in this space.
>
> I think one things to me is that I would like to see cordova have zero
> friction to open collaboration.
>
> One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
> We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
>
> 1. Use Github Issues
> Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
> corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing this with
> mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
>
> Ability to have a more open conversation, even cross referencing other open
> source project that can collaborate with cordova like npm, react-native,
> etc.. to solve common problems once with open standards and open source.
>
> potential for using issues tags, for auto taggin pr with apache icla,
> questions, etc..
>
> 2. Use Github Wiki
> Use Github Wiki instead of wiki.apache.org/cordova. Easier to read, easier
> to find and read for users. Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web
> hooks, or some other automated process.
>
> 3. Use Github Pages
> Cordova.io already is built with jekyll. Easier to maintain and easier to
> atract people to help out on blogs, ages, Docs
> Backup/Archive data on Apache using github webhook or other automated
> process.
>
> 4. Simplify our message on cordova.io to hey! we do open source go to
> Github for everything.
>
> I'm not sure but the only rule that Apache imposes is that if Gihub decides
> to go down (;-p) or disappear the project can continue to work and data and
> history is preserved.
>
> Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache Foundation, to
> another open source Foundation? That should not affect the community they
> should still continue to interface in Github.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef <st...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > As a survey it's always biased.
> >
> > I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem is
> clearly
> > not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this. They think
> > Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> > Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web nor
> > anything relative to the mobile.
> >
> > There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most of them
> are
> > native :)
> >
> > --
> > Stéphane Bachelier,
> > Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> > B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
> >
> > 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> > jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> > >:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> > >
> > > I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the details
> > about
> > > how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the work
> done
> > > and appreciate it.
> > >
> > > I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think I am the
> > > only one.
> > >
> > > I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as good as
> native
> > > ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do for the
> > apps I
> > > work on!
> > >
> > > Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> > >
> > > 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Ty...@drumpants.com>:
> > >
> > > > I think what colors people's perception the most is the graphics and
> > > > interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few possible
> reasons:
> > > >
> > > > * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3 years ago.
> > Even
> > > > though it's improved so much since then, those first apps still hang
> in
> > > > people's minds.
> > > >
> > > > * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth, buttery
> > > > animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern WebKit views, but
> > it's
> > > > hard and takes a lot of work.
> > > >
> > > > * For instance, I came across an article once that recommended using
> > CSS
> > > > transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed my whole
> way
> > > of
> > > > thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because of it. I
> > > think
> > > > it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like that for
> > > making
> > > > top-notch apps.
> > > >
> > > > * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port their
> iOS-style
> > > > design straight to Android without considering that Android users
> > expect
> > > a
> > > > completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do about
> this.
> > > >
> > > > Tyler
> > > >
> > > > On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> > > michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the score is
> low
> > > > >because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and the
> default
> > > > >Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional - Git
> Bash,
> > > > >Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven development, and no
> > > > >full
> > > > >blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving this and as
> > > > >Visual
> > > > >Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those survey
> > results
> > > > >improve.
> > > > >
> > > > >On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <D....@cadenas.de>
> > > > >wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Absolutely right :-)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the developers
> > > > >using
> > > > >> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing nothing
> > about
> > > > >the
> > > > >> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the JS->Native->JS
> > > > >bridge.
> > > > >> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos communitcation
> > > > >with
> > > > >> plugins.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything special
> is
> > > > >> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs which
> are
> > > > >not
> > > > >> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of that :-)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power of the
> > > > >cordova
> > > > >> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Daniel Toplak
> > > > >>
> > > > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > > > >> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> > > > >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> > > > >> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> > > > >> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development, because
> > > > >everyone can
> > > > >> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova applications
> > is
> > > > >> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova application
> > from
> > > > >> another company, you're probably going to end up re-writing it and
> > if
> > > > >> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it natively because
> > > > >that's
> > > > >> what you're more comfortable with.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time soon, and
> both
> > > > >those
> > > > >> technologies share the same property that anyone can create a
> shitty
> > > > >> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for a
> reason,
> > > > >and at
> > > > >> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult because I
> think
> > > > >Drupal
> > > > >> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I don't think
> we
> > > > >should
> > > > >> care what developers say in a survey, since most developers are
> > > > >terrible
> > > > >> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're releasing isn't
> > > > >terrible.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> > > > ><le...@intel.com>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey (
> > > > >> > http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > > > >> > Salesforce 73.2%
> > > > >> > Visual Basic 72.0%
> > > > >> > Wordpress 68.2%
> > > > >> > Matlab 65.6%
> > > > >> > Sharepoint 62.8%
> > > > >> > LAMP 62.2%
> > > > >> > Perl 59.2%
> > > > >> > Cordova 58.8% **************
> > > > >> > Coffeescript 54.7%
> > > > >> > Other 57.3%
> > > > >> > % of devs who are developing with the language or tech but have
> > not
> > > > >> > expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some possible
> answers.
> > > > >> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but rather
> looking
> > > > >for
> > > > >> > feedback from those who have heard developers express
> frustration
> > > > >with
> > > > >> Cordova:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > * There is no problem - unclear question led to the
> answer
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > * The problem is really about creating native apps in
> > > > >JavaScript +
> > > > >> > HTML5
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > * Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability |
> > > > >usability |
> > > > >> > reliability)
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > o Too hard to set up development environment
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > o The command CLI is too complicated
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > o Not enough learning material (documentation, articles,
> books)
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > o Too many bugs
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > o Changes too frequently
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Leo
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > > > Tyler Freeman
> > > > CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> > > >
> > > > Sent from mobile
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Cordialement,
> > >
> > > Voltaire José-luc
> > > Directeur Technique
> > > Netdevices
> > > e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Carlos Santana
> <cs...@gmail.com>
>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Carlos Santana <cs...@gmail.com>.
Julio this is a great report/list of current state of dev ux for developers
using cordova in what ever form.
I would be sad if this list get's buried in the mailing list. I would like
to have place in some place (i.e. google doc) to brain storm actions to
improve on some of those items.
At least for me I have being doing some thinking lately in this space.
I think one things to me is that I would like to see cordova have zero
friction to open collaboration.
One small thing would be to go FULL usage of Github.
We already have folks go there to submit PR anyway.
1. Use Github Issues
Have folks use Github issues as the easiest and preferred way
Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web hooks to create
corresponding jira items, and sync comments. we already doing this with
mentions of jira CB-xxxx.
Ability to have a more open conversation, even cross referencing other open
source project that can collaborate with cordova like npm, react-native,
etc.. to solve common problems once with open standards and open source.
potential for using issues tags, for auto taggin pr with apache icla,
questions, etc..
2. Use Github Wiki
Use Github Wiki instead of wiki.apache.org/cordova. Easier to read, easier
to find and read for users. Backup/Archive data on Apache using github web
hooks, or some other automated process.
3. Use Github Pages
Cordova.io already is built with jekyll. Easier to maintain and easier to
atract people to help out on blogs, ages, Docs
Backup/Archive data on Apache using github webhook or other automated
process.
4. Simplify our message on cordova.io to hey! we do open source go to
Github for everything.
I'm not sure but the only rule that Apache imposes is that if Gihub decides
to go down (;-p) or disappear the project can continue to work and data and
history is preserved.
Also what about if cordova decides to move out from Apache Foundation, to
another open source Foundation? That should not affect the community they
should still continue to interface in Github.
On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:08 AM, Stef <st...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As a survey it's always biased.
>
> I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem is clearly
> not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this. They think
> Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
> Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web nor
> anything relative to the mobile.
>
> There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most of them are
> native :)
>
> --
> Stéphane Bachelier,
> Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
> B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
>
> 2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <
> jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am a developper and I use Cordova.
> >
> > I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the details
> about
> > how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the work done
> > and appreciate it.
> >
> > I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think I am the
> > only one.
> >
> > I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as good as native
> > ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do for the
> apps I
> > work on!
> >
> > Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
> >
> > 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Ty...@drumpants.com>:
> >
> > > I think what colors people's perception the most is the graphics and
> > > interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few possible reasons:
> > >
> > > * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3 years ago.
> Even
> > > though it's improved so much since then, those first apps still hang in
> > > people's minds.
> > >
> > > * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth, buttery
> > > animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern WebKit views, but
> it's
> > > hard and takes a lot of work.
> > >
> > > * For instance, I came across an article once that recommended using
> CSS
> > > transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed my whole way
> > of
> > > thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because of it. I
> > think
> > > it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like that for
> > making
> > > top-notch apps.
> > >
> > > * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port their iOS-style
> > > design straight to Android without considering that Android users
> expect
> > a
> > > completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do about this.
> > >
> > > Tyler
> > >
> > > On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> > michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> > > wrote:
> > > >This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the score is low
> > > >because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and the default
> > > >Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional - Git Bash,
> > > >Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven development, and no
> > > >full
> > > >blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving this and as
> > > >Visual
> > > >Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those survey
> results
> > > >improve.
> > > >
> > > >On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <D....@cadenas.de>
> > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Absolutely right :-)
> > > >>
> > > >> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the developers
> > > >using
> > > >> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing nothing
> about
> > > >the
> > > >> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the JS->Native->JS
> > > >bridge.
> > > >> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos communitcation
> > > >with
> > > >> plugins.
> > > >>
> > > >> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything special is
> > > >> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> > > >>
> > > >> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs which are
> > > >not
> > > >> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of that :-)
> > > >>
> > > >> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power of the
> > > >cordova
> > > >> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> > > >>
> > > >> Daniel Toplak
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > > >> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> > > >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> > > >> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> > > >> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> > > >>
> > > >> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development, because
> > > >everyone can
> > > >> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova applications
> is
> > > >> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova application
> from
> > > >> another company, you're probably going to end up re-writing it and
> if
> > > >> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it natively because
> > > >that's
> > > >> what you're more comfortable with.
> > > >>
> > > >> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> > > >>
> > > >> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time soon, and both
> > > >those
> > > >> technologies share the same property that anyone can create a shitty
> > > >> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for a reason,
> > > >and at
> > > >> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult because I think
> > > >Drupal
> > > >> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I don't think we
> > > >should
> > > >> care what developers say in a survey, since most developers are
> > > >terrible
> > > >> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're releasing isn't
> > > >terrible.
> > > >>
> > > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> > > ><le...@intel.com>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey (
> > > >> > http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > > >> > Salesforce 73.2%
> > > >> > Visual Basic 72.0%
> > > >> > Wordpress 68.2%
> > > >> > Matlab 65.6%
> > > >> > Sharepoint 62.8%
> > > >> > LAMP 62.2%
> > > >> > Perl 59.2%
> > > >> > Cordova 58.8% **************
> > > >> > Coffeescript 54.7%
> > > >> > Other 57.3%
> > > >> > % of devs who are developing with the language or tech but have
> not
> > > >> > expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some possible answers.
> > > >> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but rather looking
> > > >for
> > > >> > feedback from those who have heard developers express frustration
> > > >with
> > > >> Cordova:
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > * There is no problem - unclear question led to the answer
> > > >> >
> > > >> > * The problem is really about creating native apps in
> > > >JavaScript +
> > > >> > HTML5
> > > >> >
> > > >> > * Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability |
> > > >usability |
> > > >> > reliability)
> > > >> >
> > > >> > o Too hard to set up development environment
> > > >> >
> > > >> > o The command CLI is too complicated
> > > >> >
> > > >> > o Not enough learning material (documentation, articles, books)
> > > >> >
> > > >> > o Too many bugs
> > > >> >
> > > >> > o Changes too frequently
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Leo
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > >
> > > Tyler Freeman
> > > CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> > >
> > > Sent from mobile
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Cordialement,
> >
> > Voltaire José-luc
> > Directeur Technique
> > Netdevices
> > e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
> >
>
--
Carlos Santana
<cs...@gmail.com>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Stef <st...@gmail.com>.
As a survey it's always biased.
I've used Cordova since a long time before the 1.x. The problem is clearly
not about Cordova, but most developers don't understand this. They think
Cordova is like "build an awesome application in 21 days".
Clearly most of these guys don't know Javascript, the mobile web nor
anything relative to the mobile.
There are really a lots of shitty mobile applications and most of them are
native :)
--
Stéphane Bachelier,
Tél. 06 42 24 48 09
B8A5 2007 0004 CDE4 5210 2317 B58A 335B B5A4 BFC2
2015-04-09 9:35 GMT+02:00 José-Luc Voltaire <jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>:
> Hi,
>
> I am a developper and I use Cordova.
>
> I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the details about
> how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the work done
> and appreciate it.
>
> I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think I am the
> only one.
>
> I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as good as native
> ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do for the apps I
> work on!
>
> Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
>
> 2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Ty...@drumpants.com>:
>
> > I think what colors people's perception the most is the graphics and
> > interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few possible reasons:
> >
> > * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3 years ago. Even
> > though it's improved so much since then, those first apps still hang in
> > people's minds.
> >
> > * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth, buttery
> > animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern WebKit views, but it's
> > hard and takes a lot of work.
> >
> > * For instance, I came across an article once that recommended using CSS
> > transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed my whole way
> of
> > thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because of it. I
> think
> > it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like that for
> making
> > top-notch apps.
> >
> > * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port their iOS-style
> > design straight to Android without considering that Android users expect
> a
> > completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do about this.
> >
> > Tyler
> >
> > On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <
> michael@michaelbrooks.ca>
> > wrote:
> > >This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the score is low
> > >because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and the default
> > >Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional - Git Bash,
> > >Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven development, and no
> > >full
> > >blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving this and as
> > >Visual
> > >Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those survey results
> > >improve.
> > >
> > >On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <D....@cadenas.de>
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >> Absolutely right :-)
> > >>
> > >> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the developers
> > >using
> > >> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing nothing about
> > >the
> > >> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the JS->Native->JS
> > >bridge.
> > >> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos communitcation
> > >with
> > >> plugins.
> > >>
> > >> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything special is
> > >> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> > >>
> > >> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs which are
> > >not
> > >> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of that :-)
> > >>
> > >> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power of the
> > >cordova
> > >> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> > >>
> > >> Daniel Toplak
> > >>
> > >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > >> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> > >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> > >> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> > >> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> > >>
> > >> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development, because
> > >everyone can
> > >> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova applications is
> > >> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova application from
> > >> another company, you're probably going to end up re-writing it and if
> > >> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it natively because
> > >that's
> > >> what you're more comfortable with.
> > >>
> > >> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> > >>
> > >> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time soon, and both
> > >those
> > >> technologies share the same property that anyone can create a shitty
> > >> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for a reason,
> > >and at
> > >> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult because I think
> > >Drupal
> > >> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I don't think we
> > >should
> > >> care what developers say in a survey, since most developers are
> > >terrible
> > >> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're releasing isn't
> > >terrible.
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> > ><le...@intel.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey (
> > >> > http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
> > >> >
> > >> > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > >> > Salesforce 73.2%
> > >> > Visual Basic 72.0%
> > >> > Wordpress 68.2%
> > >> > Matlab 65.6%
> > >> > Sharepoint 62.8%
> > >> > LAMP 62.2%
> > >> > Perl 59.2%
> > >> > Cordova 58.8% **************
> > >> > Coffeescript 54.7%
> > >> > Other 57.3%
> > >> > % of devs who are developing with the language or tech but have not
> > >> > expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> > >> >
> > >> > Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some possible answers.
> > >> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but rather looking
> > >for
> > >> > feedback from those who have heard developers express frustration
> > >with
> > >> Cordova:
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > * There is no problem - unclear question led to the answer
> > >> >
> > >> > * The problem is really about creating native apps in
> > >JavaScript +
> > >> > HTML5
> > >> >
> > >> > * Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability |
> > >usability |
> > >> > reliability)
> > >> >
> > >> > o Too hard to set up development environment
> > >> >
> > >> > o The command CLI is too complicated
> > >> >
> > >> > o Not enough learning material (documentation, articles, books)
> > >> >
> > >> > o Too many bugs
> > >> >
> > >> > o Changes too frequently
> > >> >
> > >> > Leo
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> >
> > Tyler Freeman
> > CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
> >
> > Sent from mobile
>
>
>
>
> --
> Cordialement,
>
> Voltaire José-luc
> Directeur Technique
> Netdevices
> e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by José-Luc Voltaire <jo...@netdevices.fr>.
Hi,
I am a developper and I use Cordova.
I just wanted to say that even thought we don't know all the details about
how it works under the hood, we have, at least, an idea of the work done
and appreciate it.
I try to understand how the tools I use work and I don't think I am the
only one.
I'm agree with Tyler and I think mobile web apps can be as good as native
ones, it requires a lot of work, and that's what I try to do for the apps I
work on!
Again, Thank you for your work, we appreciate!
2015-04-08 22:12 GMT+02:00 Tyler Freeman <Ty...@drumpants.com>:
> I think what colors people's perception the most is the graphics and
> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few possible reasons:
>
> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3 years ago. Even
> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps still hang in
> people's minds.
>
> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth, buttery
> animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern WebKit views, but it's
> hard and takes a lot of work.
>
> * For instance, I came across an article once that recommended using CSS
> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed my whole way of
> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because of it. I think
> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like that for making
> top-notch apps.
>
> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port their iOS-style
> design straight to Android without considering that Android users expect a
> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do about this.
>
> Tyler
>
> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <mi...@michaelbrooks.ca>
> wrote:
> >This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the score is low
> >because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and the default
> >Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional - Git Bash,
> >Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven development, and no
> >full
> >blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving this and as
> >Visual
> >Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those survey results
> >improve.
> >
> >On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <D....@cadenas.de>
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Absolutely right :-)
> >>
> >> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the developers
> >using
> >> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing nothing about
> >the
> >> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the JS->Native->JS
> >bridge.
> >> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos communitcation
> >with
> >> plugins.
> >>
> >> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything special is
> >> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> >>
> >> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs which are
> >not
> >> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of that :-)
> >>
> >> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power of the
> >cordova
> >> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> >>
> >> Daniel Toplak
> >>
> >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> >> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >>
> >> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development, because
> >everyone can
> >> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova applications is
> >> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova application from
> >> another company, you're probably going to end up re-writing it and if
> >> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it natively because
> >that's
> >> what you're more comfortable with.
> >>
> >> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> >>
> >> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time soon, and both
> >those
> >> technologies share the same property that anyone can create a shitty
> >> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for a reason,
> >and at
> >> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult because I think
> >Drupal
> >> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I don't think we
> >should
> >> care what developers say in a survey, since most developers are
> >terrible
> >> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're releasing isn't
> >terrible.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> ><le...@intel.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey (
> >> > http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
> >> >
> >> > Most Dreaded technologies:
> >> > Salesforce 73.2%
> >> > Visual Basic 72.0%
> >> > Wordpress 68.2%
> >> > Matlab 65.6%
> >> > Sharepoint 62.8%
> >> > LAMP 62.2%
> >> > Perl 59.2%
> >> > Cordova 58.8% **************
> >> > Coffeescript 54.7%
> >> > Other 57.3%
> >> > % of devs who are developing with the language or tech but have not
> >> > expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> >> >
> >> > Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some possible answers.
> >> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but rather looking
> >for
> >> > feedback from those who have heard developers express frustration
> >with
> >> Cordova:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > * There is no problem - unclear question led to the answer
> >> >
> >> > * The problem is really about creating native apps in
> >JavaScript +
> >> > HTML5
> >> >
> >> > * Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability |
> >usability |
> >> > reliability)
> >> >
> >> > o Too hard to set up development environment
> >> >
> >> > o The command CLI is too complicated
> >> >
> >> > o Not enough learning material (documentation, articles, books)
> >> >
> >> > o Too many bugs
> >> >
> >> > o Changes too frequently
> >> >
> >> > Leo
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
>
> Tyler Freeman
> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>
> Sent from mobile
--
Cordialement,
Voltaire José-luc
Directeur Technique
Netdevices
e-mail : jose-luc.voltaire@netdevices.fr
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Frederico Galvão <fr...@pontoget.com.br>.
Hi, I'm from Brazil, been working with javascript seriously since 2008, and
have known and worked with cordova since 2012, and I'd also like to give my
50 cent on this.
I won't dig deep in the topic right now (but I'm willing to), but I have
said a few times that the issue with cordova is a <marketing> one, in the
sense that it does a bad job at telling users what it does or does not.
I'm still against calling cordova/Phonegap/PB a framework of any sort, as
it doesn't require you to write code in any specific way and also doesn't
generate actual application code. I'd rather have it be called a tool or a
lib. More a tool than a lib (unless you're using CordovaActivity/WebView on
your own).
Misplaced expectations made too many "web developers" (the sort that thinks
that jQuery is a programming language or that Facebook invented web
development with React, I'm sorry) think cordova would instantly solve all
existing problems on the way to mobility. And then we have these questions
on SO or forums all over. And then we have these articles calling cordova
<slow> (it would be the same as saying that projects built with gulp ran
faster than projects build with grunt, they don't, they don't generate
actual application code by themselves).
I've presented more than a few times on different local developer groups
and events, and with time I noticed this had become the main point of what
I was telling people, because that's what they wanted to hear:
Cordova is not a framework, it will NOT generate actual application code
for you (but a shell instead), and it does NOT guarantee UX/UI/feature
quality.
Nevertheless, I completely agree with the fact that a better flow for the
docs would solve/mitigate a huge chunk of the issues we see currently, and
very often do I find myself trying to picture a better flow, but I could
not yet (lack of time and/or proper thought gathering). As a developer
myself, and a curious one, I ended up going deeper into cordova development
process so that I could understand what was being made directly from the
"source" (this mailing list, for example, which I've been following for
more than a year). For a while, I used to check every commit on all
projects that I was affected by (android, ios, lib, js, doc) and even some
of the distant ones (wp8, ubuntu, coho), and even follow every issue on
jira for CB, and that's what built up my deep understanding of cordova as a
whole. The docs alone, in it's current stage, could never achieve such
enlightening, and I think it should.
Please, take this topic forward, let's all do something about it.
PS: The presentation I ended up using more than a couple of times is
available here http://slides.com/fredericogalvao/cordova-pontoget-coworking
, but I am sorry to say it's not available in english as of right now.
Please feel free to contact me for anything related, I'll be glad to help!
2015-08-28 8:50 GMT-03:00 Tammo Schimanski <ta...@cordova.de>:
> Hey Julio,
> I already did some translation via Crowdin. For Plugins as also for the
> main files. But unfortunately i also don’t have enough time to do the
> translation for all plugins and the main files. :-/
>
> Just had a look onto the prices for flights… i think, i can’t come, thats
> realy to expensive.
>
> The german documentation is very bad. It is not only bad translated, it is
> so bad that you’re sometimes are not able to understand what is meant.
> Maybe i can invest some hours at the next weekend to do some translation
> again.
>
> It feels good to have contact to other people who are also interested in
> helping new users :-)
>
> Greetings from Germany,
> Tammo
>
>
>
> Am [DATE] schrieb "julio cesar sanchez" <[ADDRESS]>:
>
> >Hi Tammo, great iniciative!
> >
> >I tried to do the same for spanish speakers, but I rarely have time to
> >write tutorials.
> >
> >"not all german developers are able to ask a question in english (although
> >you might thought that they are)."
> >
> >Yeah, on Spain we are told that ALL other european contries speak english
> >well because they learn since childhood.
> >
> >Have you checked the german documentation? is it good? maybe you can
> >contribute with the translation
> >
> >
> >About the face 2 face meeting, this was mentioned on that thread:
> >
> >"Also, just to be clear, we are not explicitly limiting this to committers
> >- anyone interested in the development of the project is welcome. However,
> >I am guessing that we will not be talking basics of Cordova, so this may
> >not be a meeting to learn about Cordova or how to use it."
> >
> >So, you have to judge yourself if it can be of your interest.
> >
> >
> >P.S: I'm a "small" person too, but we all can contribute.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >2015-08-28 12:17 GMT+02:00 Tammo Schimanski <tammo.schimanski@cordova.de
> >:
> >
> >> Hello to all of you from Germany,
> >> i never wrote an e-mail to this list before but i want to tell you
> >> something about the situation over here.
> >>
> >> I started developing applications with Cordova two years ago. It wasn’t
> >> easy to understand how Cordova works and how it has to be used. The docs
> >> didn’t help me enough so that i had to spend many hours in watching
> video
> >> tutorials on youtube and read many articles about the cordova workflow.
> >>
> >> After i developed applications for over a year, i decided to found a
> >> german community which helps users who feel like i felt a year ago. At
> the
> >> End of 2014 i wrote e-mails to apache, registered domains and invested
> many
> >> hours in research and writing tutorials, blog articles and so on. Down
> to
> >> the present day the main Tutorials (iOS & Android) were viewed over
> 40.000
> >> times. We have about 800 visits a day and are helping all people with
> their
> >> questions inside the board. Stackoverflow is also a great way to help
> >> people but not all german developers are able to ask a question in
> english
> >> (although you might thought that they are).
> >>
> >> My target ever was to help people who are sitting in front of their
> >> computers and thinking „hey… why aren’t you working cordova“ or „why
> >> doesn’t it work like expected“? In spring 2015 my colleague and i
> decided
> >> to make all a bit more professional. We weren’t satisfied by the website
> >> because all was a bit heavy to find (Tutorials etc.) and it was not
> state
> >> of the art. Again: E-Mails to apache, registered a new domain and now
> we’re
> >> starting a big project under www.cordova.de (first look for you:
> >> www.cordova.de/dev). I had to rewrite all tutorials, because its still
> >> our aim to make it understandable and clear for everyone! Till now we
> spent
> >> already over 250 hours together for the new project - but it is no
> problem:
> >> We love cordova! The Project will start at the end of September this
> year.
> >> Cordova is a possibility for companys creating a new branch. Every
> >> websitedeveloper is able to develop applications with Cordova - but not
> >> every Developer knows this. We want to spread cordova to every developer
> >> inside Germany!
> >>
> >> So yes, why am i writing you this all? I think, in comparison to you
> i’m a
> >> small person. If i see all the people here getting e-mails to @
> >> microsoft.com, @intel.com and so on…yes, i’m a small person. I just
> want
> >> to let you know, that if we can do anything from the other side of the
> big
> >> pond: Please let us know - we’re here, waiting for your instructions
> :-).
> >>
> >> I don’t know if this „Cordova face to face meeting“ is open for all but
> my
> >> colleague and i thought about coming to that meeting. Only because we’re
> >> interested into getting a deeper look into things and because we both
> want
> >> to get better and better. The better we get, the better we can help the
> >> users in understanding cordova.
> >>
> >> Belonging to the topic, Stackoverflow, frustration etc. - i understand
> >> Jesse Monroy. A big problem is that in many cases you just can post
> links
> >> „look here“ „read this“ etc. and if you give a detailed answer, you’ll
> >> never hear something again from that user like „worked for me“ or „no
> this
> >> doesn’t work“. Thats why we also created a „first steps in cordova“
> guide
> >> on our new website in which all mistakes which can be done are
> explained.
> >>
> >> Okay so… at least, sorry if something is unclear or understandable. I
> hope
> >> that it was at least a little bit interesting for you to get some
> feedback
> >> from Germany.
> >>
> >> Greetings from
> >> Tammo Schimanski
> >>
> >>
> >> E-Mail: tammo.schimanski@cordova.de
> >> Phone / Whatsapp: + 49 162 40 98 169
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Am [DATE] schrieb "julio cesar sanchez" <[ADDRESS]>:
> >>
> >> >I would like to bring this topic back because I've seen two things
> >> recently
> >> >that worried me
> >> >
> >> >First one on the google group "Frustration in the forum"
> >> >https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/phonegap/D7ydf_hNq-w
> >> >
> >> >Second one, increasing number of unanswered questions on stackoverflow
> >> >(from http://stackoverflow.com/tags/cordova/topusers)
> >> >
> >> >cordova Questions
> >> >259 Last 7 Days 79.9% unanswered
> >> >1,172 Last 30 Days 75.7% unanswered
> >> >37,119 All Time 46.4% unanswered
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >I think it's related with the "Frustration in the forum", a lot of
> >> >questions are from newbiews and low quality so nobody answer them (not
> >> sure
> >> >if this happens with other tags or just with cordova)
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
--
*Frederico Galvão*
Diretor de Tecnologia
PontoGet Inovação Web
( +55(62) 8131-5720
* www.pontoget.com.br <http://www.pontoget.com/>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Tammo Schimanski <ta...@cordova.de>.
Hey Julio,
I already did some translation via Crowdin. For Plugins as also for the main files. But unfortunately i also don’t have enough time to do the translation for all plugins and the main files. :-/
Just had a look onto the prices for flights… i think, i can’t come, thats realy to expensive.
The german documentation is very bad. It is not only bad translated, it is so bad that you’re sometimes are not able to understand what is meant. Maybe i can invest some hours at the next weekend to do some translation again.
It feels good to have contact to other people who are also interested in helping new users :-)
Greetings from Germany,
Tammo
Am [DATE] schrieb "julio cesar sanchez" <[ADDRESS]>:
>Hi Tammo, great iniciative!
>
>I tried to do the same for spanish speakers, but I rarely have time to
>write tutorials.
>
>"not all german developers are able to ask a question in english (although
>you might thought that they are)."
>
>Yeah, on Spain we are told that ALL other european contries speak english
>well because they learn since childhood.
>
>Have you checked the german documentation? is it good? maybe you can
>contribute with the translation
>
>
>About the face 2 face meeting, this was mentioned on that thread:
>
>"Also, just to be clear, we are not explicitly limiting this to committers
>- anyone interested in the development of the project is welcome. However,
>I am guessing that we will not be talking basics of Cordova, so this may
>not be a meeting to learn about Cordova or how to use it."
>
>So, you have to judge yourself if it can be of your interest.
>
>
>P.S: I'm a "small" person too, but we all can contribute.
>
>
>
>
>2015-08-28 12:17 GMT+02:00 Tammo Schimanski <ta...@cordova.de>:
>
>> Hello to all of you from Germany,
>> i never wrote an e-mail to this list before but i want to tell you
>> something about the situation over here.
>>
>> I started developing applications with Cordova two years ago. It wasn’t
>> easy to understand how Cordova works and how it has to be used. The docs
>> didn’t help me enough so that i had to spend many hours in watching video
>> tutorials on youtube and read many articles about the cordova workflow.
>>
>> After i developed applications for over a year, i decided to found a
>> german community which helps users who feel like i felt a year ago. At the
>> End of 2014 i wrote e-mails to apache, registered domains and invested many
>> hours in research and writing tutorials, blog articles and so on. Down to
>> the present day the main Tutorials (iOS & Android) were viewed over 40.000
>> times. We have about 800 visits a day and are helping all people with their
>> questions inside the board. Stackoverflow is also a great way to help
>> people but not all german developers are able to ask a question in english
>> (although you might thought that they are).
>>
>> My target ever was to help people who are sitting in front of their
>> computers and thinking „hey… why aren’t you working cordova“ or „why
>> doesn’t it work like expected“? In spring 2015 my colleague and i decided
>> to make all a bit more professional. We weren’t satisfied by the website
>> because all was a bit heavy to find (Tutorials etc.) and it was not state
>> of the art. Again: E-Mails to apache, registered a new domain and now we’re
>> starting a big project under www.cordova.de (first look for you:
>> www.cordova.de/dev). I had to rewrite all tutorials, because its still
>> our aim to make it understandable and clear for everyone! Till now we spent
>> already over 250 hours together for the new project - but it is no problem:
>> We love cordova! The Project will start at the end of September this year.
>> Cordova is a possibility for companys creating a new branch. Every
>> websitedeveloper is able to develop applications with Cordova - but not
>> every Developer knows this. We want to spread cordova to every developer
>> inside Germany!
>>
>> So yes, why am i writing you this all? I think, in comparison to you i’m a
>> small person. If i see all the people here getting e-mails to @
>> microsoft.com, @intel.com and so on…yes, i’m a small person. I just want
>> to let you know, that if we can do anything from the other side of the big
>> pond: Please let us know - we’re here, waiting for your instructions :-).
>>
>> I don’t know if this „Cordova face to face meeting“ is open for all but my
>> colleague and i thought about coming to that meeting. Only because we’re
>> interested into getting a deeper look into things and because we both want
>> to get better and better. The better we get, the better we can help the
>> users in understanding cordova.
>>
>> Belonging to the topic, Stackoverflow, frustration etc. - i understand
>> Jesse Monroy. A big problem is that in many cases you just can post links
>> „look here“ „read this“ etc. and if you give a detailed answer, you’ll
>> never hear something again from that user like „worked for me“ or „no this
>> doesn’t work“. Thats why we also created a „first steps in cordova“ guide
>> on our new website in which all mistakes which can be done are explained.
>>
>> Okay so… at least, sorry if something is unclear or understandable. I hope
>> that it was at least a little bit interesting for you to get some feedback
>> from Germany.
>>
>> Greetings from
>> Tammo Schimanski
>>
>>
>> E-Mail: tammo.schimanski@cordova.de
>> Phone / Whatsapp: + 49 162 40 98 169
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Am [DATE] schrieb "julio cesar sanchez" <[ADDRESS]>:
>>
>> >I would like to bring this topic back because I've seen two things
>> recently
>> >that worried me
>> >
>> >First one on the google group "Frustration in the forum"
>> >https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/phonegap/D7ydf_hNq-w
>> >
>> >Second one, increasing number of unanswered questions on stackoverflow
>> >(from http://stackoverflow.com/tags/cordova/topusers)
>> >
>> >cordova Questions
>> >259 Last 7 Days 79.9% unanswered
>> >1,172 Last 30 Days 75.7% unanswered
>> >37,119 All Time 46.4% unanswered
>> >
>> >
>> >I think it's related with the "Frustration in the forum", a lot of
>> >questions are from newbiews and low quality so nobody answer them (not
>> sure
>> >if this happens with other tags or just with cordova)
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>
>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by julio cesar sanchez <jc...@gmail.com>.
Hi Tammo, great iniciative!
I tried to do the same for spanish speakers, but I rarely have time to
write tutorials.
"not all german developers are able to ask a question in english (although
you might thought that they are)."
Yeah, on Spain we are told that ALL other european contries speak english
well because they learn since childhood.
Have you checked the german documentation? is it good? maybe you can
contribute with the translation
About the face 2 face meeting, this was mentioned on that thread:
"Also, just to be clear, we are not explicitly limiting this to committers
- anyone interested in the development of the project is welcome. However,
I am guessing that we will not be talking basics of Cordova, so this may
not be a meeting to learn about Cordova or how to use it."
So, you have to judge yourself if it can be of your interest.
P.S: I'm a "small" person too, but we all can contribute.
2015-08-28 12:17 GMT+02:00 Tammo Schimanski <ta...@cordova.de>:
> Hello to all of you from Germany,
> i never wrote an e-mail to this list before but i want to tell you
> something about the situation over here.
>
> I started developing applications with Cordova two years ago. It wasn’t
> easy to understand how Cordova works and how it has to be used. The docs
> didn’t help me enough so that i had to spend many hours in watching video
> tutorials on youtube and read many articles about the cordova workflow.
>
> After i developed applications for over a year, i decided to found a
> german community which helps users who feel like i felt a year ago. At the
> End of 2014 i wrote e-mails to apache, registered domains and invested many
> hours in research and writing tutorials, blog articles and so on. Down to
> the present day the main Tutorials (iOS & Android) were viewed over 40.000
> times. We have about 800 visits a day and are helping all people with their
> questions inside the board. Stackoverflow is also a great way to help
> people but not all german developers are able to ask a question in english
> (although you might thought that they are).
>
> My target ever was to help people who are sitting in front of their
> computers and thinking „hey… why aren’t you working cordova“ or „why
> doesn’t it work like expected“? In spring 2015 my colleague and i decided
> to make all a bit more professional. We weren’t satisfied by the website
> because all was a bit heavy to find (Tutorials etc.) and it was not state
> of the art. Again: E-Mails to apache, registered a new domain and now we’re
> starting a big project under www.cordova.de (first look for you:
> www.cordova.de/dev). I had to rewrite all tutorials, because its still
> our aim to make it understandable and clear for everyone! Till now we spent
> already over 250 hours together for the new project - but it is no problem:
> We love cordova! The Project will start at the end of September this year.
> Cordova is a possibility for companys creating a new branch. Every
> websitedeveloper is able to develop applications with Cordova - but not
> every Developer knows this. We want to spread cordova to every developer
> inside Germany!
>
> So yes, why am i writing you this all? I think, in comparison to you i’m a
> small person. If i see all the people here getting e-mails to @
> microsoft.com, @intel.com and so on…yes, i’m a small person. I just want
> to let you know, that if we can do anything from the other side of the big
> pond: Please let us know - we’re here, waiting for your instructions :-).
>
> I don’t know if this „Cordova face to face meeting“ is open for all but my
> colleague and i thought about coming to that meeting. Only because we’re
> interested into getting a deeper look into things and because we both want
> to get better and better. The better we get, the better we can help the
> users in understanding cordova.
>
> Belonging to the topic, Stackoverflow, frustration etc. - i understand
> Jesse Monroy. A big problem is that in many cases you just can post links
> „look here“ „read this“ etc. and if you give a detailed answer, you’ll
> never hear something again from that user like „worked for me“ or „no this
> doesn’t work“. Thats why we also created a „first steps in cordova“ guide
> on our new website in which all mistakes which can be done are explained.
>
> Okay so… at least, sorry if something is unclear or understandable. I hope
> that it was at least a little bit interesting for you to get some feedback
> from Germany.
>
> Greetings from
> Tammo Schimanski
>
>
> E-Mail: tammo.schimanski@cordova.de
> Phone / Whatsapp: + 49 162 40 98 169
>
>
>
>
>
> Am [DATE] schrieb "julio cesar sanchez" <[ADDRESS]>:
>
> >I would like to bring this topic back because I've seen two things
> recently
> >that worried me
> >
> >First one on the google group "Frustration in the forum"
> >https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/phonegap/D7ydf_hNq-w
> >
> >Second one, increasing number of unanswered questions on stackoverflow
> >(from http://stackoverflow.com/tags/cordova/topusers)
> >
> >cordova Questions
> >259 Last 7 Days 79.9% unanswered
> >1,172 Last 30 Days 75.7% unanswered
> >37,119 All Time 46.4% unanswered
> >
> >
> >I think it's related with the "Frustration in the forum", a lot of
> >questions are from newbiews and low quality so nobody answer them (not
> sure
> >if this happens with other tags or just with cordova)
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Shazron <sh...@gmail.com>.
Please see my comments on Robert's document, do chime in:
https://github.com/cordova/cordova-discuss/pull/36
On Tuesday, March 29, 2016, Robert Posener <rp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I did, but as my reply said, it wasn't showing up.
>
> Regards
> *Rob Posener*
> 0419 012 627
>
> On 30 March 2016 at 05:01, Jesse <purplecabbage@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> wrote:
>
> > Good observations Julio, we should definitely talk to stack-overflow
> about
> > the merged tags.
> >
> > Robert, you didn't send the pull request back to cordova/cordova-discuss,
> > so no one could see it. I have done so here:
> > https://github.com/cordova/cordova-discuss/pull/35
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > @purplecabbage
> > risingj.com
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 4:29 AM, julio cesar sanchez <
> > jcesarmobile@gmail.com <javascript:;>
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > Joe said:
> > >
> > > "I also find it interesting that people are hating on Cordova, and not
> > > PhoneGap, Ionic, Taco or the other distributions."
> > >
> > > It's curious that Ionic has it's own tag, with about the same number of
> > > questions that Cordova tag, but it's not on any of the lists (and it's
> > not
> > > because all Ionic questios are tagged with Cordova tag too, in fact,
> most
> > > of them aren't)
> > >
> > > But when people is using Phonegap and add the Phonegap tag to the
> > question,
> > > stack overflow replaces it with a Cordova tag because they decided long
> > > time ago that they were synonyms, so you can't use Phonegap tag and we
> > > can't be sure if they are using Cordova or Phonegap unless they tell it
> > on
> > > the question.
> > >
> > > I think that's a mistake by stack overflow part, because people using
> > > phonegap doesn't follow same workflow that people using cordova as
> > Phonegap
> > > docs are different, they mostly use the developer app to test, and
> > phonegap
> > > users might have different problems.
> > >
> > > There are a lot of questions about "xxxx-xxxx 3rd party plugin isn't
> > > working on my app", and the problem is they are using the phonegap
> > > developer app. But they don't mention that they are using phonegap,
> they
> > > just add the phonegap tag, and stack overflow replaces it with a
> Cordova
> > > tag. They don't mention that they are using the Phonegap developer app
> > > neither because they think that's the way of running Phonegap apps. I
> see
> > > at least one of those everyday on stack overflow or some other forums.
> > >
> > > I've filed a few issues on the phonegap docs page so they can make
> > clearer
> > > to users that when using the phonegap developer app they are not really
> > > running their app, and they have some issues open to list the developer
> > app
> > > limitations. Once they are addressed, maybe the developers are a bit
> > > happier.
> > >
> > > But I'm not sure what to do about the stack overflow synonym, should we
> > > tell them to remove the synonym so people can use Phonegap and Cordova
> as
> > > different tags?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2016-03-29 8:23 GMT+02:00 Robert Posener <rposener8@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>>:
> > >
> > > > I think I have created a discussion, but it is not showing up... yet
> > > > another frustrations!
> > > >
> > > > Rob
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > > *Rob Posener*
> > > > 0419 012 627
> > > >
> > > > On 29 March 2016 at 16:48, Parashuram N <panarasi@microsoft.com
> <javascript:;>>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I am not sure if everyone got the attachment. Rob, can I request
> you
> > > to
> > > > > create an issue on https://github.com/cordova/cordova-discuss so
> > that
> > > we
> > > > > could start following up on specific issues there ?
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Robert Posener <rposener8@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> > > > > Reply-To: "dev@cordova.apache.org <javascript:;>" <
> dev@cordova.apache.org <javascript:;>>
> > > > > Date: Monday, March 28, 2016 at 10:08 PM
> > > > > To: "dev@cordova.apache.org <javascript:;>" <
> dev@cordova.apache.org <javascript:;>>
> > > > > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> > > > >
> > > > > Gerday all,
> > > > > Because of the serious nature of this thread, I have produced a
> > 6-page
> > > > > contribution of issues together with recommendations for fixing
> them
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > attachment to this email.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards
> > > > >
> > > > > Rob Posener
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards
> > > > > Rob Posener
> > > > > 0419 012 627
> > > > >
> > > > > On 19 March 2016 at 08:31, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com
> <javascript:;><mailto:
> > > > > bowserj@gmail.com <javascript:;>>> wrote:
> > > > > I don't entirely agree with this, since usually we do respond. We
> > > don't
> > > > > just accept things that get thrown at us, which I think is the
> > > > expectation.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think we need to make sure we come to some resolution and
> actually
> > > > solve
> > > > > the problem in a timely manner. We've had both extremes of
> > discussing
> > > a
> > > > > problem to death and cowboy coding, and neither extreme works well.
> > > > >
> > > > > As for getting there, I have no idea. Any thoughts?
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 2:23 PM Raghav Katyal <
> rakatyal@microsoft.com <javascript:;>
> > > > > <mailto:rakatyal@microsoft.com <javascript:;>>> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I guess responding to JIRA quickly and acting on contributors'
> PRs
> > > > could
> > > > > > be candidates for improvement.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Nikhil Khandelwal [mailto:nikhilkh@microsoft.com
> <javascript:;><mailto:
> > > > > nikhilkh@microsoft.com <javascript:;>>]
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 11:18 AM
> > > > > > To: dev@cordova.apache.org <javascript:;><mailto:
> dev@cordova.apache.org <javascript:;>>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have been guilty of not spending too much time on stackoverflow
> > > > > > answering questions. It’s on my TODO list. For those who have,
> what
> > > are
> > > > > > there general themes of improvement here that will make a huge
> > > impact?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I remember Julio summarized this last year [1] and I believe we
> > have
> > > > made
> > > > > > progress on a lot of these – docs, PATH setup. Though the impact
> of
> > > our
> > > > > > docs work is yet to be seen – we just did a big update in terms
> of
> > > > > > organization [2]. There’s probably more to be done in terms of
> > docs –
> > > > > > tutorials, examples for plugin API usage, integration with other
> > > tools
> > > > > like
> > > > > > gulp, browserify etc. What are other good candidates for
> > improvement?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I found it interesting that our own survey [3] in October had
> > > somewhat
> > > > > > high Net promoter score (NPS).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [1]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fmail-archives.apache.org%2fmod_mbox%2fcordova-dev%2f201504.mbox%2f%253CetPan.552c9004.643c9869.b8b8%40Kerris-MacBook-Pro.local%253E&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=dPkMBS3I8mA7uqmezeLaxknf4ujYsmymcco50y9piYg%3d
> > > > > > [2]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fcordova.apache.org%2fannouncements%2f2016%2f03%2f03%2fdocs-improvement.html&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=fYJCb131SFY%2bAA0RS2cxrDyf3m74EAHSGPuhd6oR7xo%3d
> > > > > > [3]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fapachecordovabot.typeform.com%2freport%2fBCc5co%2fJQLG&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=eH8cPNyXnPD2ltm%2bKbFfLCq4ifGQeBItD5rAXbgSOhg%3d
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 3/17/16, 5:55 PM, "Carlos Santana" <csantana23@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>
> > <mailto:
> > > > > csantana23@gmail.com <javascript:;>>> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >I agree Joe
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >It's easy to create a stackoverflow subscription that emails you
> > > once
> > > > a
> > > > > > >day.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I have one that covers "cordova" "worklight" "mobilefirst"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I tried to answer what I can, but reading it daily which is not
> > > every
> > > > > > >day that I get something probably most every other day with a
> few.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >At least reading all the new questions gives me a sense on what
> > > people
> > > > > > >are having problems on.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 8:46 PM Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com
> <javascript:;>
> > > <mailto:
> > > > > bowserj@gmail.com <javascript:;>>> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> BTW: The last one was a joke. But in all honesty, we should
> all
> > > > > > >> spend a bit more time on Stack seeing what's going on there
> with
> > > our
> > > > > > >> respective products/distributions.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Joe Bowser <
> bowserj@gmail.com <javascript:;>
> > > > > <mailto:bowserj@gmail.com <javascript:;>>> wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Ryan J. Salva
> > > > > > >> > <rsalva@microsoft.com <javascript:;><mailto:
> rsalva@microsoft.com <javascript:;>>>
> > > > > > >> > wrote:
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >> Keep in mind that the answers are limited to the
> technologies
> > > > that
> > > > > > >> >> Stack Overflow chooses to offer in their list of options.
> > They
> > > > have
> > > > > > an "other"
> > > > > > >> >> option with a text box, but people's answers are largely
> > driven
> > > > by
> > > > > > >> >> the checkbox options.
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> > So, we somehow pissed off the Stack Overflow guys???
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio Tools
> > for
> > > > > > >> >> Apache Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com <javascript:;><mailto:
> > > rsalva@microsoft.com <javascript:;>>
> > > > > > >> >> 425 706 5270<tel:425%20706%205270> office
> > > > > > >> >> 206 612 5079<tel:206%20612%205079> mobile
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > >> >> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com <javascript:;>
> <mailto:
> > > > > bowserj@gmail.com <javascript:;>>]
> > > > > > >> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:21 PM
> > > > > > >> >> To: dev <dev@cordova.apache.org <javascript:;><mailto:
> > dev@cordova.apache.org <javascript:;>
> > > >>
> > > > > > >> >> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
> > > happy?
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Ryan J. Salva
> > > > > > >> >> <rsalva@microsoft.com <javascript:;><mailto:
> rsalva@microsoft.com <javascript:;>>>
> > > > > > >> >> wrote:
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> > As I told some of my co-workers today:
> > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > >> >> > If you read the fine print, the actual statistic is “% of
> > > > > > >> >> > developers who are developing with the language or tech
> but
> > > > have
> > > > > > >> >> > not expressed interest in continuing to do so.” Clearly,
> > it’s
> > > > > > >> >> > not a good list to be on, but developer behavior also
> > doesn’t
> > > > > > reflect their stated intent.
> > > > > > >> >> > NPM Stats show the number of Cordova downloads has
> actually
> > > > > > >> >> > doubled since the same time last year.
> > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > >> >> > Again, I don’t think this is a good list to appear on…
> I’m
> > > just
> > > > > > >> >> > not sure what to make of it given developer behavior.
> > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> I'd rather be on that list instead of not be on any list.
> > I'd
> > > be
> > > > > > >> >> more concerned with the fact that we're on the "Losers"
> > section
> > > > of
> > > > > > >> >> the
> > > > > > >> trending
> > > > > > >> >> tech with a 7% decrease in the number of questions, which
> > > > indicate
> > > > > > >> >> that people either have no problems (not very likely) or
> are
> > > just
> > > > > > >> >> giving
> > > > > > >> up. I
> > > > > > >> >> haven't been answering questions on Stack for a while,
> mostly
> > > > > > >> >> because they're using some third party framework like ionic
> > or
> > > > > > something else.
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> I also find it interesting that people are hating on
> Cordova,
> > > and
> > > > > > >> >> not PhoneGap, Ionic, Taco or the other distributions.
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > >> >> > Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio
> Tools
> > > for
> > > > > > >> >> > Apache Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com <javascript:;>
> <mailto:
> > > > rsalva@microsoft.com <javascript:;>>
> > > > > > >> >> > 425 706 5270<tel:425%20706%205270> office
> > > > > > >> >> > 206 612 5079<tel:206%20612%205079> mobile
> > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > >> >> > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > >> >> > From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com
> <javascript:;><mailto:
> > > > > bowserj@gmail.com <javascript:;>>]
> > > > > > >> >> > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:08 PM
> > > > > > >> >> > To: dev <dev@cordova.apache.org <javascript:;><mailto:
> > > dev@cordova.apache.org <javascript:;>
> > > > >>
> > > > > > >> >> > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making
> developers
> > > > happy?
> > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > >> >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Jesse <
> > > > purplecabbage@gmail.com <javascript:;>
> > > > > <mailto:purplecabbage@gmail.com <javascript:;>>>
> > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > >> >> > > Never trust people's answers when you ask them what
> they
> > > > like!
> > > > > > >> >> > > They are almost always wrong, and will tell you what
> they
> > > > > > >> >> > > think they like, or think they will seem cooler if they
> > > > liked.
> > > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > > >> >> > +1
> > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > >> >> > It's interesting that CoffeeScript is on this list and
> that
> > > it
> > > > > > >> >> > passed Cordova in most dreaded. I also wonder what would
> > > > happen
> > > > > > >> >> > if we went on the WordPress mailing list and talked about
> > how
> > > > > > >> >> > people were so unhappy with WordPress.
> > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > > >> >> > > > On Mar 17, 2016, at 5:04 AM, julio cesar sanchez
> > > > > > >> >> > > > <jcesarmobile@gmail.com <javascript:;><mailto:
> jcesarmobile@gmail.com <javascript:;>
> > >>
> > > > > > >> >> > > wrote:
> > > > > > >> >> > > >
> > > > > > >> >> > > > 2016 survey is out
> > > > > > >> >> > > >
> > > > > > >> >> > > > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > > > > > >> >> > > >
> > > > > > >> >> > > > Visual Basic 79.5%
> > > > > > >> >> > > > WordPress 74.3%
> > > > > > >> >> > > > Matlab 72.8%
> > > > > > >> >> > > > Sharepoint 72.1%
> > > > > > >> >> > > > CoffeeScript 71.0%
> > > > > > >> >> > > > LAMP 68.7%
> > > > > > >> >> > > > Cordova 66.9%
> > > > > > >> >> > > > Salesforce 65.4%
> > > > > > >> >> > > > Other 61.5%
> > > > > > >> >> > > > Perl 61.3%
> > > > > > >> >> > > > SQL Server & SQL 60.3%
> > > > > > >> >> > > > Objective-C 60.2%
> > > > > > >> >> > > >
> > > > > > >> >> > > >
> > > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > > >>
> > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fsta
> > > > > > >> >> > > ck
> > > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=overflow.co
> > > > > > >> >> > > m&data=01%7c01%7cnikhilkh%40microsoft.com<
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2f40microsoft.com&data=01%7c01%7cpanarasi%40microsoft.com%7c20fc82f3ba714a76598f08d357903443%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=2%2bVpHbmRiliHb7I3VGioCumGY%2bzbp5%2bwlB8NmHBB5Rs%3d
> > > > > >%7cf296b880892e437222
> > > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > 3b08d34ec812d5%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=w7
> > > > > > >> >> > > c9NLd0Zo0MFjcJaXEXjEuljJxh2fs5OGv9FurbcTk%3d
> > > > > > >> %2fresearch%2fdeveloper-survey-2016%23technology-most-lo
> > > > > > >> >> > > ve
> > > > > > >> >> > > d-dreaded-and-wanted&data=01%7c01%7crsalva%
> > 40microsoft.com
> > > <
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2f40microsoft.com&data=01%7c01%7cpanarasi%40microsoft.com%7c20fc82f3ba714a76598f08d357903443%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=2%2bVpHbmRiliHb7I3VGioCumGY%2bzbp5%2bwlB8NmHBB5Rs%3d
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >> %7c342aabb
> > > > > > >> >> > > 95
> > > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > ca84607ba2608d34ec16bfe%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1
> > > > > > >> >> > > &sdata =x SvTHrkLQ7Z4Z7CTctZ4rjFxaznfrPKVjqCkMzcUIpk%3d
> > > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >> >> > > ------
> > > > > > >> >> > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org <javascript:;>
> > > > > <mailto:dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org <javascript:;>>
> > > > > > >> >> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > dev-help@cordova.apache.org <javascript:;>
> > > > > <mailto:dev-help@cordova.apache.org <javascript:;>>
> > > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > > >> >>
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > B
> > > >
> KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKCB
> > > > > > [ X ܚX K K[XZ[
> > > > > > ] ][ X ܚX P ܙ ݘK \ X K ܙ B ܈ Y ] [ۘ[ [X[ K[XZ[
> > > > > > ] Z [ ܙ ݘK \ X K ܙ B
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Robert Posener <rp...@gmail.com>.
I did, but as my reply said, it wasn't showing up.
Regards
*Rob Posener*
0419 012 627
On 30 March 2016 at 05:01, Jesse <pu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Good observations Julio, we should definitely talk to stack-overflow about
> the merged tags.
>
> Robert, you didn't send the pull request back to cordova/cordova-discuss,
> so no one could see it. I have done so here:
> https://github.com/cordova/cordova-discuss/pull/35
>
>
>
>
> @purplecabbage
> risingj.com
>
> On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 4:29 AM, julio cesar sanchez <
> jcesarmobile@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
> > Joe said:
> >
> > "I also find it interesting that people are hating on Cordova, and not
> > PhoneGap, Ionic, Taco or the other distributions."
> >
> > It's curious that Ionic has it's own tag, with about the same number of
> > questions that Cordova tag, but it's not on any of the lists (and it's
> not
> > because all Ionic questios are tagged with Cordova tag too, in fact, most
> > of them aren't)
> >
> > But when people is using Phonegap and add the Phonegap tag to the
> question,
> > stack overflow replaces it with a Cordova tag because they decided long
> > time ago that they were synonyms, so you can't use Phonegap tag and we
> > can't be sure if they are using Cordova or Phonegap unless they tell it
> on
> > the question.
> >
> > I think that's a mistake by stack overflow part, because people using
> > phonegap doesn't follow same workflow that people using cordova as
> Phonegap
> > docs are different, they mostly use the developer app to test, and
> phonegap
> > users might have different problems.
> >
> > There are a lot of questions about "xxxx-xxxx 3rd party plugin isn't
> > working on my app", and the problem is they are using the phonegap
> > developer app. But they don't mention that they are using phonegap, they
> > just add the phonegap tag, and stack overflow replaces it with a Cordova
> > tag. They don't mention that they are using the Phonegap developer app
> > neither because they think that's the way of running Phonegap apps. I see
> > at least one of those everyday on stack overflow or some other forums.
> >
> > I've filed a few issues on the phonegap docs page so they can make
> clearer
> > to users that when using the phonegap developer app they are not really
> > running their app, and they have some issues open to list the developer
> app
> > limitations. Once they are addressed, maybe the developers are a bit
> > happier.
> >
> > But I'm not sure what to do about the stack overflow synonym, should we
> > tell them to remove the synonym so people can use Phonegap and Cordova as
> > different tags?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2016-03-29 8:23 GMT+02:00 Robert Posener <rp...@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > I think I have created a discussion, but it is not showing up... yet
> > > another frustrations!
> > >
> > > Rob
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > *Rob Posener*
> > > 0419 012 627
> > >
> > > On 29 March 2016 at 16:48, Parashuram N <pa...@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I am not sure if everyone got the attachment. Rob, can I request you
> > to
> > > > create an issue on https://github.com/cordova/cordova-discuss so
> that
> > we
> > > > could start following up on specific issues there ?
> > > >
> > > > From: Robert Posener <rp...@gmail.com>
> > > > Reply-To: "dev@cordova.apache.org" <de...@cordova.apache.org>
> > > > Date: Monday, March 28, 2016 at 10:08 PM
> > > > To: "dev@cordova.apache.org" <de...@cordova.apache.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> > > >
> > > > Gerday all,
> > > > Because of the serious nature of this thread, I have produced a
> 6-page
> > > > contribution of issues together with recommendations for fixing them
> in
> > > the
> > > > attachment to this email.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > Rob Posener
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > > Rob Posener
> > > > 0419 012 627
> > > >
> > > > On 19 March 2016 at 08:31, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com<mailto:
> > > > bowserj@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > > I don't entirely agree with this, since usually we do respond. We
> > don't
> > > > just accept things that get thrown at us, which I think is the
> > > expectation.
> > > >
> > > > I think we need to make sure we come to some resolution and actually
> > > solve
> > > > the problem in a timely manner. We've had both extremes of
> discussing
> > a
> > > > problem to death and cowboy coding, and neither extreme works well.
> > > >
> > > > As for getting there, I have no idea. Any thoughts?
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 2:23 PM Raghav Katyal <rakatyal@microsoft.com
> > > > <ma...@microsoft.com>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I guess responding to JIRA quickly and acting on contributors' PRs
> > > could
> > > > > be candidates for improvement.
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Nikhil Khandelwal [mailto:nikhilkh@microsoft.com<mailto:
> > > > nikhilkh@microsoft.com>]
> > > > > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 11:18 AM
> > > > > To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> > > > > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> > > > >
> > > > > I have been guilty of not spending too much time on stackoverflow
> > > > > answering questions. It’s on my TODO list. For those who have, what
> > are
> > > > > there general themes of improvement here that will make a huge
> > impact?
> > > > >
> > > > > I remember Julio summarized this last year [1] and I believe we
> have
> > > made
> > > > > progress on a lot of these – docs, PATH setup. Though the impact of
> > our
> > > > > docs work is yet to be seen – we just did a big update in terms of
> > > > > organization [2]. There’s probably more to be done in terms of
> docs –
> > > > > tutorials, examples for plugin API usage, integration with other
> > tools
> > > > like
> > > > > gulp, browserify etc. What are other good candidates for
> improvement?
> > > > >
> > > > > I found it interesting that our own survey [3] in October had
> > somewhat
> > > > > high Net promoter score (NPS).
> > > > >
> > > > > [1]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fmail-archives.apache.org%2fmod_mbox%2fcordova-dev%2f201504.mbox%2f%253CetPan.552c9004.643c9869.b8b8%40Kerris-MacBook-Pro.local%253E&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=dPkMBS3I8mA7uqmezeLaxknf4ujYsmymcco50y9piYg%3d
> > > > > [2]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fcordova.apache.org%2fannouncements%2f2016%2f03%2f03%2fdocs-improvement.html&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=fYJCb131SFY%2bAA0RS2cxrDyf3m74EAHSGPuhd6oR7xo%3d
> > > > > [3]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fapachecordovabot.typeform.com%2freport%2fBCc5co%2fJQLG&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=eH8cPNyXnPD2ltm%2bKbFfLCq4ifGQeBItD5rAXbgSOhg%3d
> > > > >
> > > > > On 3/17/16, 5:55 PM, "Carlos Santana" <csantana23@gmail.com
> <mailto:
> > > > csantana23@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >I agree Joe
> > > > > >
> > > > > >It's easy to create a stackoverflow subscription that emails you
> > once
> > > a
> > > > > >day.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I have one that covers "cordova" "worklight" "mobilefirst"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I tried to answer what I can, but reading it daily which is not
> > every
> > > > > >day that I get something probably most every other day with a few.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >At least reading all the new questions gives me a sense on what
> > people
> > > > > >are having problems on.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 8:46 PM Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com
> > <mailto:
> > > > bowserj@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> BTW: The last one was a joke. But in all honesty, we should all
> > > > > >> spend a bit more time on Stack seeing what's going on there with
> > our
> > > > > >> respective products/distributions.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com
> > > > <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Ryan J. Salva
> > > > > >> > <rs...@microsoft.com>>
> > > > > >> > wrote:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >> Keep in mind that the answers are limited to the technologies
> > > that
> > > > > >> >> Stack Overflow chooses to offer in their list of options.
> They
> > > have
> > > > > an "other"
> > > > > >> >> option with a text box, but people's answers are largely
> driven
> > > by
> > > > > >> >> the checkbox options.
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> > So, we somehow pissed off the Stack Overflow guys???
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >> Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio Tools
> for
> > > > > >> >> Apache Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com<mailto:
> > rsalva@microsoft.com>
> > > > > >> >> 425 706 5270<tel:425%20706%205270> office
> > > > > >> >> 206 612 5079<tel:206%20612%205079> mobile
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >> >> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com<mailto:
> > > > bowserj@gmail.com>]
> > > > > >> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:21 PM
> > > > > >> >> To: dev <dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:
> dev@cordova.apache.org
> > >>
> > > > > >> >> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
> > happy?
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Ryan J. Salva
> > > > > >> >> <rs...@microsoft.com>>
> > > > > >> >> wrote:
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >> > As I told some of my co-workers today:
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> > If you read the fine print, the actual statistic is “% of
> > > > > >> >> > developers who are developing with the language or tech but
> > > have
> > > > > >> >> > not expressed interest in continuing to do so.” Clearly,
> it’s
> > > > > >> >> > not a good list to be on, but developer behavior also
> doesn’t
> > > > > reflect their stated intent.
> > > > > >> >> > NPM Stats show the number of Cordova downloads has actually
> > > > > >> >> > doubled since the same time last year.
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> > Again, I don’t think this is a good list to appear on… I’m
> > just
> > > > > >> >> > not sure what to make of it given developer behavior.
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >> I'd rather be on that list instead of not be on any list.
> I'd
> > be
> > > > > >> >> more concerned with the fact that we're on the "Losers"
> section
> > > of
> > > > > >> >> the
> > > > > >> trending
> > > > > >> >> tech with a 7% decrease in the number of questions, which
> > > indicate
> > > > > >> >> that people either have no problems (not very likely) or are
> > just
> > > > > >> >> giving
> > > > > >> up. I
> > > > > >> >> haven't been answering questions on Stack for a while, mostly
> > > > > >> >> because they're using some third party framework like ionic
> or
> > > > > something else.
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >> I also find it interesting that people are hating on Cordova,
> > and
> > > > > >> >> not PhoneGap, Ionic, Taco or the other distributions.
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> > Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio Tools
> > for
> > > > > >> >> > Apache Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com<mailto:
> > > rsalva@microsoft.com>
> > > > > >> >> > 425 706 5270<tel:425%20706%205270> office
> > > > > >> >> > 206 612 5079<tel:206%20612%205079> mobile
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >> >> > From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com<mailto:
> > > > bowserj@gmail.com>]
> > > > > >> >> > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:08 PM
> > > > > >> >> > To: dev <dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:
> > dev@cordova.apache.org
> > > >>
> > > > > >> >> > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
> > > happy?
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Jesse <
> > > purplecabbage@gmail.com
> > > > <ma...@gmail.com>>
> > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> > > Never trust people's answers when you ask them what they
> > > like!
> > > > > >> >> > > They are almost always wrong, and will tell you what they
> > > > > >> >> > > think they like, or think they will seem cooler if they
> > > liked.
> > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > >> >> > +1
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> > It's interesting that CoffeeScript is on this list and that
> > it
> > > > > >> >> > passed Cordova in most dreaded. I also wonder what would
> > > happen
> > > > > >> >> > if we went on the WordPress mailing list and talked about
> how
> > > > > >> >> > people were so unhappy with WordPress.
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > >> >> > > > On Mar 17, 2016, at 5:04 AM, julio cesar sanchez
> > > > > >> >> > > > <jcesarmobile@gmail.com<mailto:jcesarmobile@gmail.com
> >>
> > > > > >> >> > > wrote:
> > > > > >> >> > > >
> > > > > >> >> > > > 2016 survey is out
> > > > > >> >> > > >
> > > > > >> >> > > > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > > > > >> >> > > >
> > > > > >> >> > > > Visual Basic 79.5%
> > > > > >> >> > > > WordPress 74.3%
> > > > > >> >> > > > Matlab 72.8%
> > > > > >> >> > > > Sharepoint 72.1%
> > > > > >> >> > > > CoffeeScript 71.0%
> > > > > >> >> > > > LAMP 68.7%
> > > > > >> >> > > > Cordova 66.9%
> > > > > >> >> > > > Salesforce 65.4%
> > > > > >> >> > > > Other 61.5%
> > > > > >> >> > > > Perl 61.3%
> > > > > >> >> > > > SQL Server & SQL 60.3%
> > > > > >> >> > > > Objective-C 60.2%
> > > > > >> >> > > >
> > > > > >> >> > > >
> > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > >>
> > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fsta
> > > > > >> >> > > ck
> > > > > >> >> > >
> > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=overflow.co
> > > > > >> >> > > m&data=01%7c01%7cnikhilkh%40microsoft.com<
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2f40microsoft.com&data=01%7c01%7cpanarasi%40microsoft.com%7c20fc82f3ba714a76598f08d357903443%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=2%2bVpHbmRiliHb7I3VGioCumGY%2bzbp5%2bwlB8NmHBB5Rs%3d
> > > > >%7cf296b880892e437222
> > > > > >> >> > >
> > > 3b08d34ec812d5%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=w7
> > > > > >> >> > > c9NLd0Zo0MFjcJaXEXjEuljJxh2fs5OGv9FurbcTk%3d
> > > > > >> %2fresearch%2fdeveloper-survey-2016%23technology-most-lo
> > > > > >> >> > > ve
> > > > > >> >> > > d-dreaded-and-wanted&data=01%7c01%7crsalva%
> 40microsoft.com
> > <
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2f40microsoft.com&data=01%7c01%7cpanarasi%40microsoft.com%7c20fc82f3ba714a76598f08d357903443%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=2%2bVpHbmRiliHb7I3VGioCumGY%2bzbp5%2bwlB8NmHBB5Rs%3d
> > > > >
> > > > > >> %7c342aabb
> > > > > >> >> > > 95
> > > > > >> >> > >
> > > ca84607ba2608d34ec16bfe%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1
> > > > > >> >> > > &sdata =x SvTHrkLQ7Z4Z7CTctZ4rjFxaznfrPKVjqCkMzcUIpk%3d
> > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > >> >> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >> >> > > ------
> > > > > >> >> > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> > > > <ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> > > > > >> >> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> > > > <ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > >> >> > >
> > > > > >> >> >
> > > > > >> >>
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > B
> > > KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKCB
> > > > > [ X ܚX K K[XZ[
> > > > > ] ][ X ܚX P ܙ ݘK \ X K ܙ B ܈ Y ] [ۘ[ [X[ K[XZ[
> > > > > ] Z [ ܙ ݘK \ X K ܙ B
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Jesse <pu...@gmail.com>.
Good observations Julio, we should definitely talk to stack-overflow about
the merged tags.
Robert, you didn't send the pull request back to cordova/cordova-discuss,
so no one could see it. I have done so here:
https://github.com/cordova/cordova-discuss/pull/35
@purplecabbage
risingj.com
On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 4:29 AM, julio cesar sanchez <jcesarmobile@gmail.com
> wrote:
> Joe said:
>
> "I also find it interesting that people are hating on Cordova, and not
> PhoneGap, Ionic, Taco or the other distributions."
>
> It's curious that Ionic has it's own tag, with about the same number of
> questions that Cordova tag, but it's not on any of the lists (and it's not
> because all Ionic questios are tagged with Cordova tag too, in fact, most
> of them aren't)
>
> But when people is using Phonegap and add the Phonegap tag to the question,
> stack overflow replaces it with a Cordova tag because they decided long
> time ago that they were synonyms, so you can't use Phonegap tag and we
> can't be sure if they are using Cordova or Phonegap unless they tell it on
> the question.
>
> I think that's a mistake by stack overflow part, because people using
> phonegap doesn't follow same workflow that people using cordova as Phonegap
> docs are different, they mostly use the developer app to test, and phonegap
> users might have different problems.
>
> There are a lot of questions about "xxxx-xxxx 3rd party plugin isn't
> working on my app", and the problem is they are using the phonegap
> developer app. But they don't mention that they are using phonegap, they
> just add the phonegap tag, and stack overflow replaces it with a Cordova
> tag. They don't mention that they are using the Phonegap developer app
> neither because they think that's the way of running Phonegap apps. I see
> at least one of those everyday on stack overflow or some other forums.
>
> I've filed a few issues on the phonegap docs page so they can make clearer
> to users that when using the phonegap developer app they are not really
> running their app, and they have some issues open to list the developer app
> limitations. Once they are addressed, maybe the developers are a bit
> happier.
>
> But I'm not sure what to do about the stack overflow synonym, should we
> tell them to remove the synonym so people can use Phonegap and Cordova as
> different tags?
>
>
>
>
> 2016-03-29 8:23 GMT+02:00 Robert Posener <rp...@gmail.com>:
>
> > I think I have created a discussion, but it is not showing up... yet
> > another frustrations!
> >
> > Rob
> >
> > Regards
> > *Rob Posener*
> > 0419 012 627
> >
> > On 29 March 2016 at 16:48, Parashuram N <pa...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I am not sure if everyone got the attachment. Rob, can I request you
> to
> > > create an issue on https://github.com/cordova/cordova-discuss so that
> we
> > > could start following up on specific issues there ?
> > >
> > > From: Robert Posener <rp...@gmail.com>
> > > Reply-To: "dev@cordova.apache.org" <de...@cordova.apache.org>
> > > Date: Monday, March 28, 2016 at 10:08 PM
> > > To: "dev@cordova.apache.org" <de...@cordova.apache.org>
> > > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> > >
> > > Gerday all,
> > > Because of the serious nature of this thread, I have produced a 6-page
> > > contribution of issues together with recommendations for fixing them in
> > the
> > > attachment to this email.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Rob Posener
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Rob Posener
> > > 0419 012 627
> > >
> > > On 19 March 2016 at 08:31, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com<mailto:
> > > bowserj@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > I don't entirely agree with this, since usually we do respond. We
> don't
> > > just accept things that get thrown at us, which I think is the
> > expectation.
> > >
> > > I think we need to make sure we come to some resolution and actually
> > solve
> > > the problem in a timely manner. We've had both extremes of discussing
> a
> > > problem to death and cowboy coding, and neither extreme works well.
> > >
> > > As for getting there, I have no idea. Any thoughts?
> > >
> > > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 2:23 PM Raghav Katyal <rakatyal@microsoft.com
> > > <ma...@microsoft.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I guess responding to JIRA quickly and acting on contributors' PRs
> > could
> > > > be candidates for improvement.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Nikhil Khandelwal [mailto:nikhilkh@microsoft.com<mailto:
> > > nikhilkh@microsoft.com>]
> > > > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 11:18 AM
> > > > To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> > > >
> > > > I have been guilty of not spending too much time on stackoverflow
> > > > answering questions. It’s on my TODO list. For those who have, what
> are
> > > > there general themes of improvement here that will make a huge
> impact?
> > > >
> > > > I remember Julio summarized this last year [1] and I believe we have
> > made
> > > > progress on a lot of these – docs, PATH setup. Though the impact of
> our
> > > > docs work is yet to be seen – we just did a big update in terms of
> > > > organization [2]. There’s probably more to be done in terms of docs –
> > > > tutorials, examples for plugin API usage, integration with other
> tools
> > > like
> > > > gulp, browserify etc. What are other good candidates for improvement?
> > > >
> > > > I found it interesting that our own survey [3] in October had
> somewhat
> > > > high Net promoter score (NPS).
> > > >
> > > > [1]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fmail-archives.apache.org%2fmod_mbox%2fcordova-dev%2f201504.mbox%2f%253CetPan.552c9004.643c9869.b8b8%40Kerris-MacBook-Pro.local%253E&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=dPkMBS3I8mA7uqmezeLaxknf4ujYsmymcco50y9piYg%3d
> > > > [2]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fcordova.apache.org%2fannouncements%2f2016%2f03%2f03%2fdocs-improvement.html&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=fYJCb131SFY%2bAA0RS2cxrDyf3m74EAHSGPuhd6oR7xo%3d
> > > > [3]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fapachecordovabot.typeform.com%2freport%2fBCc5co%2fJQLG&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=eH8cPNyXnPD2ltm%2bKbFfLCq4ifGQeBItD5rAXbgSOhg%3d
> > > >
> > > > On 3/17/16, 5:55 PM, "Carlos Santana" <csantana23@gmail.com<mailto:
> > > csantana23@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >I agree Joe
> > > > >
> > > > >It's easy to create a stackoverflow subscription that emails you
> once
> > a
> > > > >day.
> > > > >
> > > > >I have one that covers "cordova" "worklight" "mobilefirst"
> > > > >
> > > > >I tried to answer what I can, but reading it daily which is not
> every
> > > > >day that I get something probably most every other day with a few.
> > > > >
> > > > >At least reading all the new questions gives me a sense on what
> people
> > > > >are having problems on.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 8:46 PM Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com
> <mailto:
> > > bowserj@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> BTW: The last one was a joke. But in all honesty, we should all
> > > > >> spend a bit more time on Stack seeing what's going on there with
> our
> > > > >> respective products/distributions.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com
> > > <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Ryan J. Salva
> > > > >> > <rs...@microsoft.com>>
> > > > >> > wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >> Keep in mind that the answers are limited to the technologies
> > that
> > > > >> >> Stack Overflow chooses to offer in their list of options. They
> > have
> > > > an "other"
> > > > >> >> option with a text box, but people's answers are largely driven
> > by
> > > > >> >> the checkbox options.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> > So, we somehow pissed off the Stack Overflow guys???
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio Tools for
> > > > >> >> Apache Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com<mailto:
> rsalva@microsoft.com>
> > > > >> >> 425 706 5270<tel:425%20706%205270> office
> > > > >> >> 206 612 5079<tel:206%20612%205079> mobile
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> -----Original Message-----
> > > > >> >> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com<mailto:
> > > bowserj@gmail.com>]
> > > > >> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:21 PM
> > > > >> >> To: dev <dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>
> > > > >> >> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
> happy?
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Ryan J. Salva
> > > > >> >> <rs...@microsoft.com>>
> > > > >> >> wrote:
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> > As I told some of my co-workers today:
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> > If you read the fine print, the actual statistic is “% of
> > > > >> >> > developers who are developing with the language or tech but
> > have
> > > > >> >> > not expressed interest in continuing to do so.” Clearly, it’s
> > > > >> >> > not a good list to be on, but developer behavior also doesn’t
> > > > reflect their stated intent.
> > > > >> >> > NPM Stats show the number of Cordova downloads has actually
> > > > >> >> > doubled since the same time last year.
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> > Again, I don’t think this is a good list to appear on… I’m
> just
> > > > >> >> > not sure what to make of it given developer behavior.
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> I'd rather be on that list instead of not be on any list. I'd
> be
> > > > >> >> more concerned with the fact that we're on the "Losers" section
> > of
> > > > >> >> the
> > > > >> trending
> > > > >> >> tech with a 7% decrease in the number of questions, which
> > indicate
> > > > >> >> that people either have no problems (not very likely) or are
> just
> > > > >> >> giving
> > > > >> up. I
> > > > >> >> haven't been answering questions on Stack for a while, mostly
> > > > >> >> because they're using some third party framework like ionic or
> > > > something else.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> I also find it interesting that people are hating on Cordova,
> and
> > > > >> >> not PhoneGap, Ionic, Taco or the other distributions.
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> > Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio Tools
> for
> > > > >> >> > Apache Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com<mailto:
> > rsalva@microsoft.com>
> > > > >> >> > 425 706 5270<tel:425%20706%205270> office
> > > > >> >> > 206 612 5079<tel:206%20612%205079> mobile
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> > -----Original Message-----
> > > > >> >> > From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com<mailto:
> > > bowserj@gmail.com>]
> > > > >> >> > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:08 PM
> > > > >> >> > To: dev <dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:
> dev@cordova.apache.org
> > >>
> > > > >> >> > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
> > happy?
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Jesse <
> > purplecabbage@gmail.com
> > > <ma...@gmail.com>>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> > > Never trust people's answers when you ask them what they
> > like!
> > > > >> >> > > They are almost always wrong, and will tell you what they
> > > > >> >> > > think they like, or think they will seem cooler if they
> > liked.
> > > > >> >> > >
> > > > >> >> > >
> > > > >> >> > +1
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> > It's interesting that CoffeeScript is on this list and that
> it
> > > > >> >> > passed Cordova in most dreaded. I also wonder what would
> > happen
> > > > >> >> > if we went on the WordPress mailing list and talked about how
> > > > >> >> > people were so unhappy with WordPress.
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >> > >
> > > > >> >> > > > On Mar 17, 2016, at 5:04 AM, julio cesar sanchez
> > > > >> >> > > > <jc...@gmail.com>>
> > > > >> >> > > wrote:
> > > > >> >> > > >
> > > > >> >> > > > 2016 survey is out
> > > > >> >> > > >
> > > > >> >> > > > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > > > >> >> > > >
> > > > >> >> > > > Visual Basic 79.5%
> > > > >> >> > > > WordPress 74.3%
> > > > >> >> > > > Matlab 72.8%
> > > > >> >> > > > Sharepoint 72.1%
> > > > >> >> > > > CoffeeScript 71.0%
> > > > >> >> > > > LAMP 68.7%
> > > > >> >> > > > Cordova 66.9%
> > > > >> >> > > > Salesforce 65.4%
> > > > >> >> > > > Other 61.5%
> > > > >> >> > > > Perl 61.3%
> > > > >> >> > > > SQL Server & SQL 60.3%
> > > > >> >> > > > Objective-C 60.2%
> > > > >> >> > > >
> > > > >> >> > > >
> > > > >> >> > >
> > > > >>
> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fsta
> > > > >> >> > > ck
> > > > >> >> > >
> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=overflow.co
> > > > >> >> > > m&data=01%7c01%7cnikhilkh%40microsoft.com<
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2f40microsoft.com&data=01%7c01%7cpanarasi%40microsoft.com%7c20fc82f3ba714a76598f08d357903443%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=2%2bVpHbmRiliHb7I3VGioCumGY%2bzbp5%2bwlB8NmHBB5Rs%3d
> > > >%7cf296b880892e437222
> > > > >> >> > >
> > 3b08d34ec812d5%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=w7
> > > > >> >> > > c9NLd0Zo0MFjcJaXEXjEuljJxh2fs5OGv9FurbcTk%3d
> > > > >> %2fresearch%2fdeveloper-survey-2016%23technology-most-lo
> > > > >> >> > > ve
> > > > >> >> > > d-dreaded-and-wanted&data=01%7c01%7crsalva%40microsoft.com
> <
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2f40microsoft.com&data=01%7c01%7cpanarasi%40microsoft.com%7c20fc82f3ba714a76598f08d357903443%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=2%2bVpHbmRiliHb7I3VGioCumGY%2bzbp5%2bwlB8NmHBB5Rs%3d
> > > >
> > > > >> %7c342aabb
> > > > >> >> > > 95
> > > > >> >> > >
> > ca84607ba2608d34ec16bfe%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1
> > > > >> >> > > &sdata =x SvTHrkLQ7Z4Z7CTctZ4rjFxaznfrPKVjqCkMzcUIpk%3d
> > > > >> >> > >
> > > > >> >> > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> >> > > ------
> > > > >> >> > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> > > <ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> > > > >> >> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> > > <ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> > > > >> >> > >
> > > > >> >> > >
> > > > >> >> >
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > B
> > KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKCB
> > > > [ X ܚX K K[XZ[
> > > > ] ][ X ܚX P ܙ ݘK \ X K ܙ B ܈ Y ] [ۘ[ [X[ K[XZ[
> > > > ] Z [ ܙ ݘK \ X K ܙ B
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by julio cesar sanchez <jc...@gmail.com>.
Joe said:
"I also find it interesting that people are hating on Cordova, and not
PhoneGap, Ionic, Taco or the other distributions."
It's curious that Ionic has it's own tag, with about the same number of
questions that Cordova tag, but it's not on any of the lists (and it's not
because all Ionic questios are tagged with Cordova tag too, in fact, most
of them aren't)
But when people is using Phonegap and add the Phonegap tag to the question,
stack overflow replaces it with a Cordova tag because they decided long
time ago that they were synonyms, so you can't use Phonegap tag and we
can't be sure if they are using Cordova or Phonegap unless they tell it on
the question.
I think that's a mistake by stack overflow part, because people using
phonegap doesn't follow same workflow that people using cordova as Phonegap
docs are different, they mostly use the developer app to test, and phonegap
users might have different problems.
There are a lot of questions about "xxxx-xxxx 3rd party plugin isn't
working on my app", and the problem is they are using the phonegap
developer app. But they don't mention that they are using phonegap, they
just add the phonegap tag, and stack overflow replaces it with a Cordova
tag. They don't mention that they are using the Phonegap developer app
neither because they think that's the way of running Phonegap apps. I see
at least one of those everyday on stack overflow or some other forums.
I've filed a few issues on the phonegap docs page so they can make clearer
to users that when using the phonegap developer app they are not really
running their app, and they have some issues open to list the developer app
limitations. Once they are addressed, maybe the developers are a bit
happier.
But I'm not sure what to do about the stack overflow synonym, should we
tell them to remove the synonym so people can use Phonegap and Cordova as
different tags?
2016-03-29 8:23 GMT+02:00 Robert Posener <rp...@gmail.com>:
> I think I have created a discussion, but it is not showing up... yet
> another frustrations!
>
> Rob
>
> Regards
> *Rob Posener*
> 0419 012 627
>
> On 29 March 2016 at 16:48, Parashuram N <pa...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> > I am not sure if everyone got the attachment. Rob, can I request you to
> > create an issue on https://github.com/cordova/cordova-discuss so that we
> > could start following up on specific issues there ?
> >
> > From: Robert Posener <rp...@gmail.com>
> > Reply-To: "dev@cordova.apache.org" <de...@cordova.apache.org>
> > Date: Monday, March 28, 2016 at 10:08 PM
> > To: "dev@cordova.apache.org" <de...@cordova.apache.org>
> > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >
> > Gerday all,
> > Because of the serious nature of this thread, I have produced a 6-page
> > contribution of issues together with recommendations for fixing them in
> the
> > attachment to this email.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Rob Posener
> >
> > Regards
> > Rob Posener
> > 0419 012 627
> >
> > On 19 March 2016 at 08:31, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com<mailto:
> > bowserj@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > I don't entirely agree with this, since usually we do respond. We don't
> > just accept things that get thrown at us, which I think is the
> expectation.
> >
> > I think we need to make sure we come to some resolution and actually
> solve
> > the problem in a timely manner. We've had both extremes of discussing a
> > problem to death and cowboy coding, and neither extreme works well.
> >
> > As for getting there, I have no idea. Any thoughts?
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 2:23 PM Raghav Katyal <rakatyal@microsoft.com
> > <ma...@microsoft.com>> wrote:
> >
> > > I guess responding to JIRA quickly and acting on contributors' PRs
> could
> > > be candidates for improvement.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Nikhil Khandelwal [mailto:nikhilkh@microsoft.com<mailto:
> > nikhilkh@microsoft.com>]
> > > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 11:18 AM
> > > To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> > > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> > >
> > > I have been guilty of not spending too much time on stackoverflow
> > > answering questions. It’s on my TODO list. For those who have, what are
> > > there general themes of improvement here that will make a huge impact?
> > >
> > > I remember Julio summarized this last year [1] and I believe we have
> made
> > > progress on a lot of these – docs, PATH setup. Though the impact of our
> > > docs work is yet to be seen – we just did a big update in terms of
> > > organization [2]. There’s probably more to be done in terms of docs –
> > > tutorials, examples for plugin API usage, integration with other tools
> > like
> > > gulp, browserify etc. What are other good candidates for improvement?
> > >
> > > I found it interesting that our own survey [3] in October had somewhat
> > > high Net promoter score (NPS).
> > >
> > > [1]
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fmail-archives.apache.org%2fmod_mbox%2fcordova-dev%2f201504.mbox%2f%253CetPan.552c9004.643c9869.b8b8%40Kerris-MacBook-Pro.local%253E&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=dPkMBS3I8mA7uqmezeLaxknf4ujYsmymcco50y9piYg%3d
> > > [2]
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fcordova.apache.org%2fannouncements%2f2016%2f03%2f03%2fdocs-improvement.html&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=fYJCb131SFY%2bAA0RS2cxrDyf3m74EAHSGPuhd6oR7xo%3d
> > > [3]
> > >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fapachecordovabot.typeform.com%2freport%2fBCc5co%2fJQLG&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=eH8cPNyXnPD2ltm%2bKbFfLCq4ifGQeBItD5rAXbgSOhg%3d
> > >
> > > On 3/17/16, 5:55 PM, "Carlos Santana" <csantana23@gmail.com<mailto:
> > csantana23@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > >I agree Joe
> > > >
> > > >It's easy to create a stackoverflow subscription that emails you once
> a
> > > >day.
> > > >
> > > >I have one that covers "cordova" "worklight" "mobilefirst"
> > > >
> > > >I tried to answer what I can, but reading it daily which is not every
> > > >day that I get something probably most every other day with a few.
> > > >
> > > >At least reading all the new questions gives me a sense on what people
> > > >are having problems on.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 8:46 PM Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com<mailto:
> > bowserj@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> BTW: The last one was a joke. But in all honesty, we should all
> > > >> spend a bit more time on Stack seeing what's going on there with our
> > > >> respective products/distributions.
> > > >>
> > > >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com
> > <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Ryan J. Salva
> > > >> > <rs...@microsoft.com>>
> > > >> > wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> >> Keep in mind that the answers are limited to the technologies
> that
> > > >> >> Stack Overflow chooses to offer in their list of options. They
> have
> > > an "other"
> > > >> >> option with a text box, but people's answers are largely driven
> by
> > > >> >> the checkbox options.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> > So, we somehow pissed off the Stack Overflow guys???
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio Tools for
> > > >> >> Apache Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com<ma...@microsoft.com>
> > > >> >> 425 706 5270<tel:425%20706%205270> office
> > > >> >> 206 612 5079<tel:206%20612%205079> mobile
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> >> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com<mailto:
> > bowserj@gmail.com>]
> > > >> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:21 PM
> > > >> >> To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>>
> > > >> >> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Ryan J. Salva
> > > >> >> <rs...@microsoft.com>>
> > > >> >> wrote:
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> > As I told some of my co-workers today:
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > If you read the fine print, the actual statistic is “% of
> > > >> >> > developers who are developing with the language or tech but
> have
> > > >> >> > not expressed interest in continuing to do so.” Clearly, it’s
> > > >> >> > not a good list to be on, but developer behavior also doesn’t
> > > reflect their stated intent.
> > > >> >> > NPM Stats show the number of Cordova downloads has actually
> > > >> >> > doubled since the same time last year.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > Again, I don’t think this is a good list to appear on… I’m just
> > > >> >> > not sure what to make of it given developer behavior.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> I'd rather be on that list instead of not be on any list. I'd be
> > > >> >> more concerned with the fact that we're on the "Losers" section
> of
> > > >> >> the
> > > >> trending
> > > >> >> tech with a 7% decrease in the number of questions, which
> indicate
> > > >> >> that people either have no problems (not very likely) or are just
> > > >> >> giving
> > > >> up. I
> > > >> >> haven't been answering questions on Stack for a while, mostly
> > > >> >> because they're using some third party framework like ionic or
> > > something else.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> I also find it interesting that people are hating on Cordova, and
> > > >> >> not PhoneGap, Ionic, Taco or the other distributions.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio Tools for
> > > >> >> > Apache Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com<mailto:
> rsalva@microsoft.com>
> > > >> >> > 425 706 5270<tel:425%20706%205270> office
> > > >> >> > 206 612 5079<tel:206%20612%205079> mobile
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > -----Original Message-----
> > > >> >> > From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com<mailto:
> > bowserj@gmail.com>]
> > > >> >> > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:08 PM
> > > >> >> > To: dev <dev@cordova.apache.org<mailto:dev@cordova.apache.org
> >>
> > > >> >> > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers
> happy?
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Jesse <
> purplecabbage@gmail.com
> > <ma...@gmail.com>>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > > Never trust people's answers when you ask them what they
> like!
> > > >> >> > > They are almost always wrong, and will tell you what they
> > > >> >> > > think they like, or think they will seem cooler if they
> liked.
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > +1
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > It's interesting that CoffeeScript is on this list and that it
> > > >> >> > passed Cordova in most dreaded. I also wonder what would
> happen
> > > >> >> > if we went on the WordPress mailing list and talked about how
> > > >> >> > people were so unhappy with WordPress.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > > > On Mar 17, 2016, at 5:04 AM, julio cesar sanchez
> > > >> >> > > > <jc...@gmail.com>>
> > > >> >> > > wrote:
> > > >> >> > > >
> > > >> >> > > > 2016 survey is out
> > > >> >> > > >
> > > >> >> > > > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > > >> >> > > >
> > > >> >> > > > Visual Basic 79.5%
> > > >> >> > > > WordPress 74.3%
> > > >> >> > > > Matlab 72.8%
> > > >> >> > > > Sharepoint 72.1%
> > > >> >> > > > CoffeeScript 71.0%
> > > >> >> > > > LAMP 68.7%
> > > >> >> > > > Cordova 66.9%
> > > >> >> > > > Salesforce 65.4%
> > > >> >> > > > Other 61.5%
> > > >> >> > > > Perl 61.3%
> > > >> >> > > > SQL Server & SQL 60.3%
> > > >> >> > > > Objective-C 60.2%
> > > >> >> > > >
> > > >> >> > > >
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fsta
> > > >> >> > > ck
> > > >> >> > >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=overflow.co
> > > >> >> > > m&data=01%7c01%7cnikhilkh%40microsoft.com<
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2f40microsoft.com&data=01%7c01%7cpanarasi%40microsoft.com%7c20fc82f3ba714a76598f08d357903443%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=2%2bVpHbmRiliHb7I3VGioCumGY%2bzbp5%2bwlB8NmHBB5Rs%3d
> > >%7cf296b880892e437222
> > > >> >> > >
> 3b08d34ec812d5%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=w7
> > > >> >> > > c9NLd0Zo0MFjcJaXEXjEuljJxh2fs5OGv9FurbcTk%3d
> > > >> %2fresearch%2fdeveloper-survey-2016%23technology-most-lo
> > > >> >> > > ve
> > > >> >> > > d-dreaded-and-wanted&data=01%7c01%7crsalva%40microsoft.com<
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2f40microsoft.com&data=01%7c01%7cpanarasi%40microsoft.com%7c20fc82f3ba714a76598f08d357903443%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=2%2bVpHbmRiliHb7I3VGioCumGY%2bzbp5%2bwlB8NmHBB5Rs%3d
> > >
> > > >> %7c342aabb
> > > >> >> > > 95
> > > >> >> > >
> ca84607ba2608d34ec16bfe%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1
> > > >> >> > > &sdata =x SvTHrkLQ7Z4Z7CTctZ4rjFxaznfrPKVjqCkMzcUIpk%3d
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > >
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> >> > > ------
> > > >> >> > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> > <ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> > > >> >> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> > <ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> > >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > B
> KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKCB
> > > [ X ܚX K K[XZ[
> > > ] ][ X ܚX P ܙ ݘK \ X K ܙ B ܈ Y ] [ۘ[ [X[ K[XZ[
> > > ] Z [ ܙ ݘK \ X K ܙ B
> > >
> >
> >
>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Robert Posener <rp...@gmail.com>.
I think I have created a discussion, but it is not showing up... yet
another frustrations!
Rob
Regards
*Rob Posener*
0419 012 627
On 29 March 2016 at 16:48, Parashuram N <pa...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> I am not sure if everyone got the attachment. Rob, can I request you to
> create an issue on https://github.com/cordova/cordova-discuss so that we
> could start following up on specific issues there ?
>
> From: Robert Posener <rp...@gmail.com>
> Reply-To: "dev@cordova.apache.org" <de...@cordova.apache.org>
> Date: Monday, March 28, 2016 at 10:08 PM
> To: "dev@cordova.apache.org" <de...@cordova.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>
> Gerday all,
> Because of the serious nature of this thread, I have produced a 6-page
> contribution of issues together with recommendations for fixing them in the
> attachment to this email.
>
> Regards
>
> Rob Posener
>
> Regards
> Rob Posener
> 0419 012 627
>
> On 19 March 2016 at 08:31, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com<mailto:
> bowserj@gmail.com>> wrote:
> I don't entirely agree with this, since usually we do respond. We don't
> just accept things that get thrown at us, which I think is the expectation.
>
> I think we need to make sure we come to some resolution and actually solve
> the problem in a timely manner. We've had both extremes of discussing a
> problem to death and cowboy coding, and neither extreme works well.
>
> As for getting there, I have no idea. Any thoughts?
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 2:23 PM Raghav Katyal <rakatyal@microsoft.com
> <ma...@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>
> > I guess responding to JIRA quickly and acting on contributors' PRs could
> > be candidates for improvement.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Nikhil Khandelwal [mailto:nikhilkh@microsoft.com<mailto:
> nikhilkh@microsoft.com>]
> > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 11:18 AM
> > To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >
> > I have been guilty of not spending too much time on stackoverflow
> > answering questions. It’s on my TODO list. For those who have, what are
> > there general themes of improvement here that will make a huge impact?
> >
> > I remember Julio summarized this last year [1] and I believe we have made
> > progress on a lot of these – docs, PATH setup. Though the impact of our
> > docs work is yet to be seen – we just did a big update in terms of
> > organization [2]. There’s probably more to be done in terms of docs –
> > tutorials, examples for plugin API usage, integration with other tools
> like
> > gulp, browserify etc. What are other good candidates for improvement?
> >
> > I found it interesting that our own survey [3] in October had somewhat
> > high Net promoter score (NPS).
> >
> > [1]
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fmail-archives.apache.org%2fmod_mbox%2fcordova-dev%2f201504.mbox%2f%253CetPan.552c9004.643c9869.b8b8%40Kerris-MacBook-Pro.local%253E&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=dPkMBS3I8mA7uqmezeLaxknf4ujYsmymcco50y9piYg%3d
> > [2]
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fcordova.apache.org%2fannouncements%2f2016%2f03%2f03%2fdocs-improvement.html&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=fYJCb131SFY%2bAA0RS2cxrDyf3m74EAHSGPuhd6oR7xo%3d
> > [3]
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fapachecordovabot.typeform.com%2freport%2fBCc5co%2fJQLG&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=eH8cPNyXnPD2ltm%2bKbFfLCq4ifGQeBItD5rAXbgSOhg%3d
> >
> > On 3/17/16, 5:55 PM, "Carlos Santana" <csantana23@gmail.com<mailto:
> csantana23@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > >I agree Joe
> > >
> > >It's easy to create a stackoverflow subscription that emails you once a
> > >day.
> > >
> > >I have one that covers "cordova" "worklight" "mobilefirst"
> > >
> > >I tried to answer what I can, but reading it daily which is not every
> > >day that I get something probably most every other day with a few.
> > >
> > >At least reading all the new questions gives me a sense on what people
> > >are having problems on.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 8:46 PM Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com<mailto:
> bowserj@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > >> BTW: The last one was a joke. But in all honesty, we should all
> > >> spend a bit more time on Stack seeing what's going on there with our
> > >> respective products/distributions.
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Joe Bowser <bowserj@gmail.com
> <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Ryan J. Salva
> > >> > <rs...@microsoft.com>>
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> Keep in mind that the answers are limited to the technologies that
> > >> >> Stack Overflow chooses to offer in their list of options. They have
> > an "other"
> > >> >> option with a text box, but people's answers are largely driven by
> > >> >> the checkbox options.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> > So, we somehow pissed off the Stack Overflow guys???
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio Tools for
> > >> >> Apache Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com<ma...@microsoft.com>
> > >> >> 425 706 5270<tel:425%20706%205270> office
> > >> >> 206 612 5079<tel:206%20612%205079> mobile
> > >> >>
> > >> >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> >> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com<mailto:
> bowserj@gmail.com>]
> > >> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:21 PM
> > >> >> To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>>
> > >> >> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Ryan J. Salva
> > >> >> <rs...@microsoft.com>>
> > >> >> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > As I told some of my co-workers today:
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > If you read the fine print, the actual statistic is “% of
> > >> >> > developers who are developing with the language or tech but have
> > >> >> > not expressed interest in continuing to do so.” Clearly, it’s
> > >> >> > not a good list to be on, but developer behavior also doesn’t
> > reflect their stated intent.
> > >> >> > NPM Stats show the number of Cordova downloads has actually
> > >> >> > doubled since the same time last year.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Again, I don’t think this is a good list to appear on… I’m just
> > >> >> > not sure what to make of it given developer behavior.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I'd rather be on that list instead of not be on any list. I'd be
> > >> >> more concerned with the fact that we're on the "Losers" section of
> > >> >> the
> > >> trending
> > >> >> tech with a 7% decrease in the number of questions, which indicate
> > >> >> that people either have no problems (not very likely) or are just
> > >> >> giving
> > >> up. I
> > >> >> haven't been answering questions on Stack for a while, mostly
> > >> >> because they're using some third party framework like ionic or
> > something else.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I also find it interesting that people are hating on Cordova, and
> > >> >> not PhoneGap, Ionic, Taco or the other distributions.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio Tools for
> > >> >> > Apache Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com<ma...@microsoft.com>
> > >> >> > 425 706 5270<tel:425%20706%205270> office
> > >> >> > 206 612 5079<tel:206%20612%205079> mobile
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > -----Original Message-----
> > >> >> > From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com<mailto:
> bowserj@gmail.com>]
> > >> >> > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:08 PM
> > >> >> > To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>>
> > >> >> > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Jesse <purplecabbage@gmail.com
> <ma...@gmail.com>>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > > Never trust people's answers when you ask them what they like!
> > >> >> > > They are almost always wrong, and will tell you what they
> > >> >> > > think they like, or think they will seem cooler if they liked.
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > +1
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > It's interesting that CoffeeScript is on this list and that it
> > >> >> > passed Cordova in most dreaded. I also wonder what would happen
> > >> >> > if we went on the WordPress mailing list and talked about how
> > >> >> > people were so unhappy with WordPress.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > > On Mar 17, 2016, at 5:04 AM, julio cesar sanchez
> > >> >> > > > <jc...@gmail.com>>
> > >> >> > > wrote:
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > > 2016 survey is out
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > > Visual Basic 79.5%
> > >> >> > > > WordPress 74.3%
> > >> >> > > > Matlab 72.8%
> > >> >> > > > Sharepoint 72.1%
> > >> >> > > > CoffeeScript 71.0%
> > >> >> > > > LAMP 68.7%
> > >> >> > > > Cordova 66.9%
> > >> >> > > > Salesforce 65.4%
> > >> >> > > > Other 61.5%
> > >> >> > > > Perl 61.3%
> > >> >> > > > SQL Server & SQL 60.3%
> > >> >> > > > Objective-C 60.2%
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > >
> > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fsta
> > >> >> > > ck
> > >> >> > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=overflow.co
> > >> >> > > m&data=01%7c01%7cnikhilkh%40microsoft.com<
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2f40microsoft.com&data=01%7c01%7cpanarasi%40microsoft.com%7c20fc82f3ba714a76598f08d357903443%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=2%2bVpHbmRiliHb7I3VGioCumGY%2bzbp5%2bwlB8NmHBB5Rs%3d
> >%7cf296b880892e437222
> > >> >> > > 3b08d34ec812d5%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=w7
> > >> >> > > c9NLd0Zo0MFjcJaXEXjEuljJxh2fs5OGv9FurbcTk%3d
> > >> %2fresearch%2fdeveloper-survey-2016%23technology-most-lo
> > >> >> > > ve
> > >> >> > > d-dreaded-and-wanted&data=01%7c01%7crsalva%40microsoft.com<
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2f40microsoft.com&data=01%7c01%7cpanarasi%40microsoft.com%7c20fc82f3ba714a76598f08d357903443%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=2%2bVpHbmRiliHb7I3VGioCumGY%2bzbp5%2bwlB8NmHBB5Rs%3d
> >
> > >> %7c342aabb
> > >> >> > > 95
> > >> >> > > ca84607ba2608d34ec16bfe%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1
> > >> >> > > &sdata =x SvTHrkLQ7Z4Z7CTctZ4rjFxaznfrPKVjqCkMzcUIpk%3d
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> >> > > ------
> > >> >> > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> <ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> > >> >> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> <ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> >
> >
> > B KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKCB
> > [ X ܚX K K[XZ[
> > ] ][ X ܚX P ܙ ݘK \ X K ܙ B ܈ Y ] [ۘ[ [X[ K[XZ[
> > ] Z [ ܙ ݘK \ X K ܙ B
> >
>
>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Parashuram N <pa...@microsoft.com>.
I am not sure if everyone got the attachment. Rob, can I request you to create an issue on https://github.com/cordova/cordova-discuss so that we could start following up on specific issues there ?
From: Robert Posener <rp...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: "dev@cordova.apache.org" <de...@cordova.apache.org>
Date: Monday, March 28, 2016 at 10:08 PM
To: "dev@cordova.apache.org" <de...@cordova.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Gerday all,
Because of the serious nature of this thread, I have produced a 6-page contribution of issues together with recommendations for fixing them in the attachment to this email.
Regards
Rob Posener
Regards
Rob Posener
0419 012 627
On 19 March 2016 at 08:31, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I don't entirely agree with this, since usually we do respond. We don't
just accept things that get thrown at us, which I think is the expectation.
I think we need to make sure we come to some resolution and actually solve
the problem in a timely manner. We've had both extremes of discussing a
problem to death and cowboy coding, and neither extreme works well.
As for getting there, I have no idea. Any thoughts?
On Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 2:23 PM Raghav Katyal <ra...@microsoft.com>> wrote:
> I guess responding to JIRA quickly and acting on contributors' PRs could
> be candidates for improvement.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nikhil Khandelwal [mailto:nikhilkh@microsoft.com<ma...@microsoft.com>]
> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 11:18 AM
> To: dev@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>
> I have been guilty of not spending too much time on stackoverflow
> answering questions. It’s on my TODO list. For those who have, what are
> there general themes of improvement here that will make a huge impact?
>
> I remember Julio summarized this last year [1] and I believe we have made
> progress on a lot of these – docs, PATH setup. Though the impact of our
> docs work is yet to be seen – we just did a big update in terms of
> organization [2]. There’s probably more to be done in terms of docs –
> tutorials, examples for plugin API usage, integration with other tools like
> gulp, browserify etc. What are other good candidates for improvement?
>
> I found it interesting that our own survey [3] in October had somewhat
> high Net promoter score (NPS).
>
> [1]
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fmail-archives.apache.org%2fmod_mbox%2fcordova-dev%2f201504.mbox%2f%253CetPan.552c9004.643c9869.b8b8%40Kerris-MacBook-Pro.local%253E&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=dPkMBS3I8mA7uqmezeLaxknf4ujYsmymcco50y9piYg%3d
> [2]
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fcordova.apache.org%2fannouncements%2f2016%2f03%2f03%2fdocs-improvement.html&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=fYJCb131SFY%2bAA0RS2cxrDyf3m74EAHSGPuhd6oR7xo%3d
> [3]
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fapachecordovabot.typeform.com%2freport%2fBCc5co%2fJQLG&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=eH8cPNyXnPD2ltm%2bKbFfLCq4ifGQeBItD5rAXbgSOhg%3d
>
> On 3/17/16, 5:55 PM, "Carlos Santana" <cs...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >I agree Joe
> >
> >It's easy to create a stackoverflow subscription that emails you once a
> >day.
> >
> >I have one that covers "cordova" "worklight" "mobilefirst"
> >
> >I tried to answer what I can, but reading it daily which is not every
> >day that I get something probably most every other day with a few.
> >
> >At least reading all the new questions gives me a sense on what people
> >are having problems on.
> >
> >
> >
> >On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 8:46 PM Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >> BTW: The last one was a joke. But in all honesty, we should all
> >> spend a bit more time on Stack seeing what's going on there with our
> >> respective products/distributions.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Ryan J. Salva
> >> > <rs...@microsoft.com>>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Keep in mind that the answers are limited to the technologies that
> >> >> Stack Overflow chooses to offer in their list of options. They have
> an "other"
> >> >> option with a text box, but people's answers are largely driven by
> >> >> the checkbox options.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > So, we somehow pissed off the Stack Overflow guys???
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio Tools for
> >> >> Apache Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com<ma...@microsoft.com>
> >> >> 425 706 5270<tel:425%20706%205270> office
> >> >> 206 612 5079<tel:206%20612%205079> mobile
> >> >>
> >> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com<ma...@gmail.com>]
> >> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:21 PM
> >> >> To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>>
> >> >> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Ryan J. Salva
> >> >> <rs...@microsoft.com>>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > As I told some of my co-workers today:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > If you read the fine print, the actual statistic is “% of
> >> >> > developers who are developing with the language or tech but have
> >> >> > not expressed interest in continuing to do so.” Clearly, it’s
> >> >> > not a good list to be on, but developer behavior also doesn’t
> reflect their stated intent.
> >> >> > NPM Stats show the number of Cordova downloads has actually
> >> >> > doubled since the same time last year.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Again, I don’t think this is a good list to appear on… I’m just
> >> >> > not sure what to make of it given developer behavior.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> I'd rather be on that list instead of not be on any list. I'd be
> >> >> more concerned with the fact that we're on the "Losers" section of
> >> >> the
> >> trending
> >> >> tech with a 7% decrease in the number of questions, which indicate
> >> >> that people either have no problems (not very likely) or are just
> >> >> giving
> >> up. I
> >> >> haven't been answering questions on Stack for a while, mostly
> >> >> because they're using some third party framework like ionic or
> something else.
> >> >>
> >> >> I also find it interesting that people are hating on Cordova, and
> >> >> not PhoneGap, Ionic, Taco or the other distributions.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio Tools for
> >> >> > Apache Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com<ma...@microsoft.com>
> >> >> > 425 706 5270<tel:425%20706%205270> office
> >> >> > 206 612 5079<tel:206%20612%205079> mobile
> >> >> >
> >> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> >> > From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com<ma...@gmail.com>]
> >> >> > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:08 PM
> >> >> > To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>>
> >> >> > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Jesse <pu...@gmail.com>>
> >> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > Never trust people's answers when you ask them what they like!
> >> >> > > They are almost always wrong, and will tell you what they
> >> >> > > think they like, or think they will seem cooler if they liked.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > +1
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It's interesting that CoffeeScript is on this list and that it
> >> >> > passed Cordova in most dreaded. I also wonder what would happen
> >> >> > if we went on the WordPress mailing list and talked about how
> >> >> > people were so unhappy with WordPress.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > > On Mar 17, 2016, at 5:04 AM, julio cesar sanchez
> >> >> > > > <jc...@gmail.com>>
> >> >> > > wrote:
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 2016 survey is out
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Most Dreaded technologies:
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Visual Basic 79.5%
> >> >> > > > WordPress 74.3%
> >> >> > > > Matlab 72.8%
> >> >> > > > Sharepoint 72.1%
> >> >> > > > CoffeeScript 71.0%
> >> >> > > > LAMP 68.7%
> >> >> > > > Cordova 66.9%
> >> >> > > > Salesforce 65.4%
> >> >> > > > Other 61.5%
> >> >> > > > Perl 61.3%
> >> >> > > > SQL Server & SQL 60.3%
> >> >> > > > Objective-C 60.2%
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > >
> >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fsta
> >> >> > > ck
> >> >> > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=overflow.co
> >> >> > > m&data=01%7c01%7cnikhilkh%40microsoft.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2f40microsoft.com&data=01%7c01%7cpanarasi%40microsoft.com%7c20fc82f3ba714a76598f08d357903443%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=2%2bVpHbmRiliHb7I3VGioCumGY%2bzbp5%2bwlB8NmHBB5Rs%3d>%7cf296b880892e437222
> >> >> > > 3b08d34ec812d5%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=w7
> >> >> > > c9NLd0Zo0MFjcJaXEXjEuljJxh2fs5OGv9FurbcTk%3d
> >> %2fresearch%2fdeveloper-survey-2016%23technology-most-lo
> >> >> > > ve
> >> >> > > d-dreaded-and-wanted&data=01%7c01%7crsalva%40microsoft.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2f40microsoft.com&data=01%7c01%7cpanarasi%40microsoft.com%7c20fc82f3ba714a76598f08d357903443%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=2%2bVpHbmRiliHb7I3VGioCumGY%2bzbp5%2bwlB8NmHBB5Rs%3d>
> >> %7c342aabb
> >> >> > > 95
> >> >> > > ca84607ba2608d34ec16bfe%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1
> >> >> > > &sdata =x SvTHrkLQ7Z4Z7CTctZ4rjFxaznfrPKVjqCkMzcUIpk%3d
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > > ------
> >> >> > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> >> >> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org<ma...@cordova.apache.org>
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
>
>
> B KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKCB
> [ X ܚX K K[XZ[
> ] ][ X ܚX P ܙ ݘK \ X K ܙ B ܈ Y ] [ۘ[ [X[ K[XZ[
> ] Z [ ܙ ݘK \ X K ܙ B
>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Robert Posener <rp...@gmail.com>.
Gerday all,
Because of the serious nature of this thread, I have produced a 6-page
contribution of issues together with recommendations for fixing them in the
attachment to this email.
Regards
Rob Posener
Regards
*Rob Posener*
0419 012 627
On 19 March 2016 at 08:31, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't entirely agree with this, since usually we do respond. We don't
> just accept things that get thrown at us, which I think is the expectation.
>
> I think we need to make sure we come to some resolution and actually solve
> the problem in a timely manner. We've had both extremes of discussing a
> problem to death and cowboy coding, and neither extreme works well.
>
> As for getting there, I have no idea. Any thoughts?
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 2:23 PM Raghav Katyal <ra...@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I guess responding to JIRA quickly and acting on contributors' PRs could
> > be candidates for improvement.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Nikhil Khandelwal [mailto:nikhilkh@microsoft.com]
> > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 11:18 AM
> > To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >
> > I have been guilty of not spending too much time on stackoverflow
> > answering questions. It’s on my TODO list. For those who have, what are
> > there general themes of improvement here that will make a huge impact?
> >
> > I remember Julio summarized this last year [1] and I believe we have made
> > progress on a lot of these – docs, PATH setup. Though the impact of our
> > docs work is yet to be seen – we just did a big update in terms of
> > organization [2]. There’s probably more to be done in terms of docs –
> > tutorials, examples for plugin API usage, integration with other tools
> like
> > gulp, browserify etc. What are other good candidates for improvement?
> >
> > I found it interesting that our own survey [3] in October had somewhat
> > high Net promoter score (NPS).
> >
> > [1]
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fmail-archives.apache.org%2fmod_mbox%2fcordova-dev%2f201504.mbox%2f%253CetPan.552c9004.643c9869.b8b8%40Kerris-MacBook-Pro.local%253E&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=dPkMBS3I8mA7uqmezeLaxknf4ujYsmymcco50y9piYg%3d
> > [2]
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fcordova.apache.org%2fannouncements%2f2016%2f03%2f03%2fdocs-improvement.html&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=fYJCb131SFY%2bAA0RS2cxrDyf3m74EAHSGPuhd6oR7xo%3d
> > [3]
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fapachecordovabot.typeform.com%2freport%2fBCc5co%2fJQLG&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=eH8cPNyXnPD2ltm%2bKbFfLCq4ifGQeBItD5rAXbgSOhg%3d
> >
> > On 3/17/16, 5:55 PM, "Carlos Santana" <cs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >I agree Joe
> > >
> > >It's easy to create a stackoverflow subscription that emails you once a
> > >day.
> > >
> > >I have one that covers "cordova" "worklight" "mobilefirst"
> > >
> > >I tried to answer what I can, but reading it daily which is not every
> > >day that I get something probably most every other day with a few.
> > >
> > >At least reading all the new questions gives me a sense on what people
> > >are having problems on.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 8:46 PM Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> BTW: The last one was a joke. But in all honesty, we should all
> > >> spend a bit more time on Stack seeing what's going on there with our
> > >> respective products/distributions.
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Ryan J. Salva
> > >> > <rs...@microsoft.com>
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> Keep in mind that the answers are limited to the technologies that
> > >> >> Stack Overflow chooses to offer in their list of options. They have
> > an "other"
> > >> >> option with a text box, but people's answers are largely driven by
> > >> >> the checkbox options.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> > So, we somehow pissed off the Stack Overflow guys???
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio Tools for
> > >> >> Apache Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com
> > >> >> 425 706 5270 office
> > >> >> 206 612 5079 mobile
> > >> >>
> > >> >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> >> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> > >> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:21 PM
> > >> >> To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>
> > >> >> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Ryan J. Salva
> > >> >> <rs...@microsoft.com>
> > >> >> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > As I told some of my co-workers today:
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > If you read the fine print, the actual statistic is “% of
> > >> >> > developers who are developing with the language or tech but have
> > >> >> > not expressed interest in continuing to do so.” Clearly, it’s
> > >> >> > not a good list to be on, but developer behavior also doesn’t
> > reflect their stated intent.
> > >> >> > NPM Stats show the number of Cordova downloads has actually
> > >> >> > doubled since the same time last year.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Again, I don’t think this is a good list to appear on… I’m just
> > >> >> > not sure what to make of it given developer behavior.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I'd rather be on that list instead of not be on any list. I'd be
> > >> >> more concerned with the fact that we're on the "Losers" section of
> > >> >> the
> > >> trending
> > >> >> tech with a 7% decrease in the number of questions, which indicate
> > >> >> that people either have no problems (not very likely) or are just
> > >> >> giving
> > >> up. I
> > >> >> haven't been answering questions on Stack for a while, mostly
> > >> >> because they're using some third party framework like ionic or
> > something else.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I also find it interesting that people are hating on Cordova, and
> > >> >> not PhoneGap, Ionic, Taco or the other distributions.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio Tools for
> > >> >> > Apache Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com
> > >> >> > 425 706 5270 office
> > >> >> > 206 612 5079 mobile
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > -----Original Message-----
> > >> >> > From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> > >> >> > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:08 PM
> > >> >> > To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>
> > >> >> > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Jesse <pu...@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > > Never trust people's answers when you ask them what they like!
> > >> >> > > They are almost always wrong, and will tell you what they
> > >> >> > > think they like, or think they will seem cooler if they liked.
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > +1
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > It's interesting that CoffeeScript is on this list and that it
> > >> >> > passed Cordova in most dreaded. I also wonder what would happen
> > >> >> > if we went on the WordPress mailing list and talked about how
> > >> >> > people were so unhappy with WordPress.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > > On Mar 17, 2016, at 5:04 AM, julio cesar sanchez
> > >> >> > > > <jc...@gmail.com>
> > >> >> > > wrote:
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > > 2016 survey is out
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > > Visual Basic 79.5%
> > >> >> > > > WordPress 74.3%
> > >> >> > > > Matlab 72.8%
> > >> >> > > > Sharepoint 72.1%
> > >> >> > > > CoffeeScript 71.0%
> > >> >> > > > LAMP 68.7%
> > >> >> > > > Cordova 66.9%
> > >> >> > > > Salesforce 65.4%
> > >> >> > > > Other 61.5%
> > >> >> > > > Perl 61.3%
> > >> >> > > > SQL Server & SQL 60.3%
> > >> >> > > > Objective-C 60.2%
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > >
> > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fsta
> > >> >> > > ck
> > >> >> > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=overflow.co
> > >> >> > > m&data=01%7c01%7cnikhilkh%40microsoft.com%7cf296b880892e437222
> > >> >> > > 3b08d34ec812d5%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=w7
> > >> >> > > c9NLd0Zo0MFjcJaXEXjEuljJxh2fs5OGv9FurbcTk%3d
> > >> %2fresearch%2fdeveloper-survey-2016%23technology-most-lo
> > >> >> > > ve
> > >> >> > > d-dreaded-and-wanted&data=01%7c01%7crsalva%40microsoft.com
> > >> %7c342aabb
> > >> >> > > 95
> > >> >> > > ca84607ba2608d34ec16bfe%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1
> > >> >> > > &sdata =x SvTHrkLQ7Z4Z7CTctZ4rjFxaznfrPKVjqCkMzcUIpk%3d
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> >> > > ------
> > >> >> > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> > >> >> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> >
> >
> > B KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKCB
> > [ X ܚX K K[XZ[
> > ] ][ X ܚX P ܙ ݘK \ X K ܙ B ܈ Y ] [ۘ[ [X[ K[XZ[
> > ] Z [ ܙ ݘK \ X K ܙ B
> >
>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>.
I don't entirely agree with this, since usually we do respond. We don't
just accept things that get thrown at us, which I think is the expectation.
I think we need to make sure we come to some resolution and actually solve
the problem in a timely manner. We've had both extremes of discussing a
problem to death and cowboy coding, and neither extreme works well.
As for getting there, I have no idea. Any thoughts?
On Fri, Mar 18, 2016, 2:23 PM Raghav Katyal <ra...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> I guess responding to JIRA quickly and acting on contributors' PRs could
> be candidates for improvement.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nikhil Khandelwal [mailto:nikhilkh@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 11:18 AM
> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>
> I have been guilty of not spending too much time on stackoverflow
> answering questions. It’s on my TODO list. For those who have, what are
> there general themes of improvement here that will make a huge impact?
>
> I remember Julio summarized this last year [1] and I believe we have made
> progress on a lot of these – docs, PATH setup. Though the impact of our
> docs work is yet to be seen – we just did a big update in terms of
> organization [2]. There’s probably more to be done in terms of docs –
> tutorials, examples for plugin API usage, integration with other tools like
> gulp, browserify etc. What are other good candidates for improvement?
>
> I found it interesting that our own survey [3] in October had somewhat
> high Net promoter score (NPS).
>
> [1]
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fmail-archives.apache.org%2fmod_mbox%2fcordova-dev%2f201504.mbox%2f%253CetPan.552c9004.643c9869.b8b8%40Kerris-MacBook-Pro.local%253E&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=dPkMBS3I8mA7uqmezeLaxknf4ujYsmymcco50y9piYg%3d
> [2]
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fcordova.apache.org%2fannouncements%2f2016%2f03%2f03%2fdocs-improvement.html&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=fYJCb131SFY%2bAA0RS2cxrDyf3m74EAHSGPuhd6oR7xo%3d
> [3]
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fapachecordovabot.typeform.com%2freport%2fBCc5co%2fJQLG&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=eH8cPNyXnPD2ltm%2bKbFfLCq4ifGQeBItD5rAXbgSOhg%3d
>
> On 3/17/16, 5:55 PM, "Carlos Santana" <cs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I agree Joe
> >
> >It's easy to create a stackoverflow subscription that emails you once a
> >day.
> >
> >I have one that covers "cordova" "worklight" "mobilefirst"
> >
> >I tried to answer what I can, but reading it daily which is not every
> >day that I get something probably most every other day with a few.
> >
> >At least reading all the new questions gives me a sense on what people
> >are having problems on.
> >
> >
> >
> >On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 8:46 PM Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> BTW: The last one was a joke. But in all honesty, we should all
> >> spend a bit more time on Stack seeing what's going on there with our
> >> respective products/distributions.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Ryan J. Salva
> >> > <rs...@microsoft.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Keep in mind that the answers are limited to the technologies that
> >> >> Stack Overflow chooses to offer in their list of options. They have
> an "other"
> >> >> option with a text box, but people's answers are largely driven by
> >> >> the checkbox options.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > So, we somehow pissed off the Stack Overflow guys???
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio Tools for
> >> >> Apache Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com
> >> >> 425 706 5270 office
> >> >> 206 612 5079 mobile
> >> >>
> >> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:21 PM
> >> >> To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>
> >> >> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Ryan J. Salva
> >> >> <rs...@microsoft.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > As I told some of my co-workers today:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > If you read the fine print, the actual statistic is “% of
> >> >> > developers who are developing with the language or tech but have
> >> >> > not expressed interest in continuing to do so.” Clearly, it’s
> >> >> > not a good list to be on, but developer behavior also doesn’t
> reflect their stated intent.
> >> >> > NPM Stats show the number of Cordova downloads has actually
> >> >> > doubled since the same time last year.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Again, I don’t think this is a good list to appear on… I’m just
> >> >> > not sure what to make of it given developer behavior.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> I'd rather be on that list instead of not be on any list. I'd be
> >> >> more concerned with the fact that we're on the "Losers" section of
> >> >> the
> >> trending
> >> >> tech with a 7% decrease in the number of questions, which indicate
> >> >> that people either have no problems (not very likely) or are just
> >> >> giving
> >> up. I
> >> >> haven't been answering questions on Stack for a while, mostly
> >> >> because they're using some third party framework like ionic or
> something else.
> >> >>
> >> >> I also find it interesting that people are hating on Cordova, and
> >> >> not PhoneGap, Ionic, Taco or the other distributions.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio Tools for
> >> >> > Apache Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com
> >> >> > 425 706 5270 office
> >> >> > 206 612 5079 mobile
> >> >> >
> >> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> >> > From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >> >> > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:08 PM
> >> >> > To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>
> >> >> > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Jesse <pu...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > Never trust people's answers when you ask them what they like!
> >> >> > > They are almost always wrong, and will tell you what they
> >> >> > > think they like, or think they will seem cooler if they liked.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > +1
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It's interesting that CoffeeScript is on this list and that it
> >> >> > passed Cordova in most dreaded. I also wonder what would happen
> >> >> > if we went on the WordPress mailing list and talked about how
> >> >> > people were so unhappy with WordPress.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > > On Mar 17, 2016, at 5:04 AM, julio cesar sanchez
> >> >> > > > <jc...@gmail.com>
> >> >> > > wrote:
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > 2016 survey is out
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Most Dreaded technologies:
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Visual Basic 79.5%
> >> >> > > > WordPress 74.3%
> >> >> > > > Matlab 72.8%
> >> >> > > > Sharepoint 72.1%
> >> >> > > > CoffeeScript 71.0%
> >> >> > > > LAMP 68.7%
> >> >> > > > Cordova 66.9%
> >> >> > > > Salesforce 65.4%
> >> >> > > > Other 61.5%
> >> >> > > > Perl 61.3%
> >> >> > > > SQL Server & SQL 60.3%
> >> >> > > > Objective-C 60.2%
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > >
> >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fsta
> >> >> > > ck
> >> >> > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=overflow.co
> >> >> > > m&data=01%7c01%7cnikhilkh%40microsoft.com%7cf296b880892e437222
> >> >> > > 3b08d34ec812d5%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=w7
> >> >> > > c9NLd0Zo0MFjcJaXEXjEuljJxh2fs5OGv9FurbcTk%3d
> >> %2fresearch%2fdeveloper-survey-2016%23technology-most-lo
> >> >> > > ve
> >> >> > > d-dreaded-and-wanted&data=01%7c01%7crsalva%40microsoft.com
> >> %7c342aabb
> >> >> > > 95
> >> >> > > ca84607ba2608d34ec16bfe%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1
> >> >> > > &sdata =x SvTHrkLQ7Z4Z7CTctZ4rjFxaznfrPKVjqCkMzcUIpk%3d
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > > ------
> >> >> > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> >> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
>
>
> B KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKCB
> [ X ܚX K K[XZ[
> ] ][ X ܚX P ܙ ݘK \ X K ܙ B ܈ Y ] [ۘ[ [X[ K[XZ[
> ] Z [ ܙ ݘK \ X K ܙ B
>
RE: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Raghav Katyal <ra...@microsoft.com>.
I guess responding to JIRA quickly and acting on contributors' PRs could be candidates for improvement.
-----Original Message-----
From: Nikhil Khandelwal [mailto:nikhilkh@microsoft.com]
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 11:18 AM
To: dev@cordova.apache.org
Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
I have been guilty of not spending too much time on stackoverflow answering questions. It’s on my TODO list. For those who have, what are there general themes of improvement here that will make a huge impact?
I remember Julio summarized this last year [1] and I believe we have made progress on a lot of these – docs, PATH setup. Though the impact of our docs work is yet to be seen – we just did a big update in terms of organization [2]. There’s probably more to be done in terms of docs – tutorials, examples for plugin API usage, integration with other tools like gulp, browserify etc. What are other good candidates for improvement?
I found it interesting that our own survey [3] in October had somewhat high Net promoter score (NPS).
[1] https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fmail-archives.apache.org%2fmod_mbox%2fcordova-dev%2f201504.mbox%2f%253CetPan.552c9004.643c9869.b8b8%40Kerris-MacBook-Pro.local%253E&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=dPkMBS3I8mA7uqmezeLaxknf4ujYsmymcco50y9piYg%3d
[2] https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fcordova.apache.org%2fannouncements%2f2016%2f03%2f03%2fdocs-improvement.html&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=fYJCb131SFY%2bAA0RS2cxrDyf3m74EAHSGPuhd6oR7xo%3d
[3] https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fapachecordovabot.typeform.com%2freport%2fBCc5co%2fJQLG&data=01%7c01%7crakatyal%40microsoft.com%7c1371f56d47e84d4fb7c808d34f59b0e9%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=eH8cPNyXnPD2ltm%2bKbFfLCq4ifGQeBItD5rAXbgSOhg%3d
On 3/17/16, 5:55 PM, "Carlos Santana" <cs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I agree Joe
>
>It's easy to create a stackoverflow subscription that emails you once a
>day.
>
>I have one that covers "cordova" "worklight" "mobilefirst"
>
>I tried to answer what I can, but reading it daily which is not every
>day that I get something probably most every other day with a few.
>
>At least reading all the new questions gives me a sense on what people
>are having problems on.
>
>
>
>On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 8:46 PM Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> BTW: The last one was a joke. But in all honesty, we should all
>> spend a bit more time on Stack seeing what's going on there with our
>> respective products/distributions.
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Ryan J. Salva
>> > <rs...@microsoft.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Keep in mind that the answers are limited to the technologies that
>> >> Stack Overflow chooses to offer in their list of options. They have an "other"
>> >> option with a text box, but people's answers are largely driven by
>> >> the checkbox options.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > So, we somehow pissed off the Stack Overflow guys???
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio Tools for
>> >> Apache Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com
>> >> 425 706 5270 office
>> >> 206 612 5079 mobile
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:21 PM
>> >> To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>
>> >> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Ryan J. Salva
>> >> <rs...@microsoft.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > As I told some of my co-workers today:
>> >> >
>> >> > If you read the fine print, the actual statistic is “% of
>> >> > developers who are developing with the language or tech but have
>> >> > not expressed interest in continuing to do so.” Clearly, it’s
>> >> > not a good list to be on, but developer behavior also doesn’t reflect their stated intent.
>> >> > NPM Stats show the number of Cordova downloads has actually
>> >> > doubled since the same time last year.
>> >> >
>> >> > Again, I don’t think this is a good list to appear on… I’m just
>> >> > not sure what to make of it given developer behavior.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> I'd rather be on that list instead of not be on any list. I'd be
>> >> more concerned with the fact that we're on the "Losers" section of
>> >> the
>> trending
>> >> tech with a 7% decrease in the number of questions, which indicate
>> >> that people either have no problems (not very likely) or are just
>> >> giving
>> up. I
>> >> haven't been answering questions on Stack for a while, mostly
>> >> because they're using some third party framework like ionic or something else.
>> >>
>> >> I also find it interesting that people are hating on Cordova, and
>> >> not PhoneGap, Ionic, Taco or the other distributions.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio Tools for
>> >> > Apache Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com
>> >> > 425 706 5270 office
>> >> > 206 612 5079 mobile
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>> >> > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:08 PM
>> >> > To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>
>> >> > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Jesse <pu...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > Never trust people's answers when you ask them what they like!
>> >> > > They are almost always wrong, and will tell you what they
>> >> > > think they like, or think they will seem cooler if they liked.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > +1
>> >> >
>> >> > It's interesting that CoffeeScript is on this list and that it
>> >> > passed Cordova in most dreaded. I also wonder what would happen
>> >> > if we went on the WordPress mailing list and talked about how
>> >> > people were so unhappy with WordPress.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > On Mar 17, 2016, at 5:04 AM, julio cesar sanchez
>> >> > > > <jc...@gmail.com>
>> >> > > wrote:
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > 2016 survey is out
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Most Dreaded technologies:
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Visual Basic 79.5%
>> >> > > > WordPress 74.3%
>> >> > > > Matlab 72.8%
>> >> > > > Sharepoint 72.1%
>> >> > > > CoffeeScript 71.0%
>> >> > > > LAMP 68.7%
>> >> > > > Cordova 66.9%
>> >> > > > Salesforce 65.4%
>> >> > > > Other 61.5%
>> >> > > > Perl 61.3%
>> >> > > > SQL Server & SQL 60.3%
>> >> > > > Objective-C 60.2%
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > >
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fsta
>> >> > > ck
>> >> > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=overflow.co
>> >> > > m&data=01%7c01%7cnikhilkh%40microsoft.com%7cf296b880892e437222
>> >> > > 3b08d34ec812d5%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=w7
>> >> > > c9NLd0Zo0MFjcJaXEXjEuljJxh2fs5OGv9FurbcTk%3d
>> %2fresearch%2fdeveloper-survey-2016%23technology-most-lo
>> >> > > ve
>> >> > > d-dreaded-and-wanted&data=01%7c01%7crsalva%40microsoft.com
>> %7c342aabb
>> >> > > 95
>> >> > > ca84607ba2608d34ec16bfe%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1
>> >> > > &sdata =x SvTHrkLQ7Z4Z7CTctZ4rjFxaznfrPKVjqCkMzcUIpk%3d
>> >> > >
>> >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > > ------
>> >> > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> >> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
B KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKCB [ X ܚX KK[XZ[
] ][ X ܚX P ܙݘK \X K ܙ B ܈Y][ۘ[ [X[ K[XZ[
] Z[ ܙݘK \X K ܙ B
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Nikhil Khandelwal <ni...@microsoft.com>.
I have been guilty of not spending too much time on stackoverflow answering questions. It’s on my TODO list. For those who have, what are there general themes of improvement here that will make a huge impact?
I remember Julio summarized this last year [1] and I believe we have made progress on a lot of these – docs, PATH setup. Though the impact of our docs work is yet to be seen – we just did a big update in terms of organization [2]. There’s probably more to be done in terms of docs – tutorials, examples for plugin API usage, integration with other tools like gulp, browserify etc. What are other good candidates for improvement?
I found it interesting that our own survey [3] in October had somewhat high Net promoter score (NPS).
[1] http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/cordova-dev/201504.mbox/%3CetPan.552c9004.643c9869.b8b8@Kerris-MacBook-Pro.local%3E
[2] https://cordova.apache.org/announcements/2016/03/03/docs-improvement.html
[3] https://apachecordovabot.typeform.com/report/BCc5co/JQLG
On 3/17/16, 5:55 PM, "Carlos Santana" <cs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I agree Joe
>
>It's easy to create a stackoverflow subscription that emails you once a
>day.
>
>I have one that covers "cordova" "worklight" "mobilefirst"
>
>I tried to answer what I can, but reading it daily which is not every day
>that I get something probably most every other day with a few.
>
>At least reading all the new questions gives me a sense on what people are
>having problems on.
>
>
>
>On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 8:46 PM Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> BTW: The last one was a joke. But in all honesty, we should all spend a
>> bit more time on Stack seeing what's going on there with our respective
>> products/distributions.
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Ryan J. Salva <rs...@microsoft.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Keep in mind that the answers are limited to the technologies that Stack
>> >> Overflow chooses to offer in their list of options. They have an "other"
>> >> option with a text box, but people's answers are largely driven by the
>> >> checkbox options.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > So, we somehow pissed off the Stack Overflow guys???
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager
>> >> Visual Studio Tools for Apache Cordova
>> >> rsalva@microsoft.com
>> >> 425 706 5270 office
>> >> 206 612 5079 mobile
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:21 PM
>> >> To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>
>> >> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Ryan J. Salva <rs...@microsoft.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > As I told some of my co-workers today:
>> >> >
>> >> > If you read the fine print, the actual statistic is “% of developers
>> >> > who are developing with the language or tech but have not expressed
>> >> > interest in continuing to do so.” Clearly, it’s not a good list to be
>> >> > on, but developer behavior also doesn’t reflect their stated intent.
>> >> > NPM Stats show the number of Cordova downloads has actually doubled
>> >> > since the same time last year.
>> >> >
>> >> > Again, I don’t think this is a good list to appear on… I’m just not
>> >> > sure what to make of it given developer behavior.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> I'd rather be on that list instead of not be on any list. I'd be more
>> >> concerned with the fact that we're on the "Losers" section of the
>> trending
>> >> tech with a 7% decrease in the number of questions, which indicate that
>> >> people either have no problems (not very likely) or are just giving
>> up. I
>> >> haven't been answering questions on Stack for a while, mostly because
>> >> they're using some third party framework like ionic or something else.
>> >>
>> >> I also find it interesting that people are hating on Cordova, and not
>> >> PhoneGap, Ionic, Taco or the other distributions.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio Tools for Apache
>> >> > Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com
>> >> > 425 706 5270 office
>> >> > 206 612 5079 mobile
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>> >> > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:08 PM
>> >> > To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>
>> >> > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Jesse <pu...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > Never trust people's answers when you ask them what they like! They
>> >> > > are almost always wrong, and will tell you what they think they
>> >> > > like, or think they will seem cooler if they liked.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > +1
>> >> >
>> >> > It's interesting that CoffeeScript is on this list and that it passed
>> >> > Cordova in most dreaded. I also wonder what would happen if we went
>> >> > on the WordPress mailing list and talked about how people were so
>> >> > unhappy with WordPress.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > On Mar 17, 2016, at 5:04 AM, julio cesar sanchez
>> >> > > > <jc...@gmail.com>
>> >> > > wrote:
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > 2016 survey is out
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Most Dreaded technologies:
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Visual Basic 79.5%
>> >> > > > WordPress 74.3%
>> >> > > > Matlab 72.8%
>> >> > > > Sharepoint 72.1%
>> >> > > > CoffeeScript 71.0%
>> >> > > > LAMP 68.7%
>> >> > > > Cordova 66.9%
>> >> > > > Salesforce 65.4%
>> >> > > > Other 61.5%
>> >> > > > Perl 61.3%
>> >> > > > SQL Server & SQL 60.3%
>> >> > > > Objective-C 60.2%
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > >
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fsta
>> >> > > ck
>> >> > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=overflow.com&data=01%7c01%7cnikhilkh%40microsoft.com%7cf296b880892e4372223b08d34ec812d5%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=w7c9NLd0Zo0MFjcJaXEXjEuljJxh2fs5OGv9FurbcTk%3d
>> %2fresearch%2fdeveloper-survey-2016%23technology-most-lo
>> >> > > ve
>> >> > > d-dreaded-and-wanted&data=01%7c01%7crsalva%40microsoft.com
>> %7c342aabb
>> >> > > 95
>> >> > > ca84607ba2608d34ec16bfe%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata
>> >> > > =x SvTHrkLQ7Z4Z7CTctZ4rjFxaznfrPKVjqCkMzcUIpk%3d
>> >> > >
>> >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> >> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Carlos Santana <cs...@gmail.com>.
I agree Joe
It's easy to create a stackoverflow subscription that emails you once a
day.
I have one that covers "cordova" "worklight" "mobilefirst"
I tried to answer what I can, but reading it daily which is not every day
that I get something probably most every other day with a few.
At least reading all the new questions gives me a sense on what people are
having problems on.
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 8:46 PM Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> BTW: The last one was a joke. But in all honesty, we should all spend a
> bit more time on Stack seeing what's going on there with our respective
> products/distributions.
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Ryan J. Salva <rs...@microsoft.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Keep in mind that the answers are limited to the technologies that Stack
> >> Overflow chooses to offer in their list of options. They have an "other"
> >> option with a text box, but people's answers are largely driven by the
> >> checkbox options.
> >>
> >>
> > So, we somehow pissed off the Stack Overflow guys???
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager
> >> Visual Studio Tools for Apache Cordova
> >> rsalva@microsoft.com
> >> 425 706 5270 office
> >> 206 612 5079 mobile
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:21 PM
> >> To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>
> >> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >>
> >> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Ryan J. Salva <rs...@microsoft.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > As I told some of my co-workers today:
> >> >
> >> > If you read the fine print, the actual statistic is “% of developers
> >> > who are developing with the language or tech but have not expressed
> >> > interest in continuing to do so.” Clearly, it’s not a good list to be
> >> > on, but developer behavior also doesn’t reflect their stated intent.
> >> > NPM Stats show the number of Cordova downloads has actually doubled
> >> > since the same time last year.
> >> >
> >> > Again, I don’t think this is a good list to appear on… I’m just not
> >> > sure what to make of it given developer behavior.
> >> >
> >>
> >> I'd rather be on that list instead of not be on any list. I'd be more
> >> concerned with the fact that we're on the "Losers" section of the
> trending
> >> tech with a 7% decrease in the number of questions, which indicate that
> >> people either have no problems (not very likely) or are just giving
> up. I
> >> haven't been answering questions on Stack for a while, mostly because
> >> they're using some third party framework like ionic or something else.
> >>
> >> I also find it interesting that people are hating on Cordova, and not
> >> PhoneGap, Ionic, Taco or the other distributions.
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio Tools for Apache
> >> > Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com
> >> > 425 706 5270 office
> >> > 206 612 5079 mobile
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >> > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:08 PM
> >> > To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>
> >> > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Jesse <pu...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Never trust people's answers when you ask them what they like! They
> >> > > are almost always wrong, and will tell you what they think they
> >> > > like, or think they will seem cooler if they liked.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > +1
> >> >
> >> > It's interesting that CoffeeScript is on this list and that it passed
> >> > Cordova in most dreaded. I also wonder what would happen if we went
> >> > on the WordPress mailing list and talked about how people were so
> >> > unhappy with WordPress.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > > On Mar 17, 2016, at 5:04 AM, julio cesar sanchez
> >> > > > <jc...@gmail.com>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > 2016 survey is out
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Most Dreaded technologies:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Visual Basic 79.5%
> >> > > > WordPress 74.3%
> >> > > > Matlab 72.8%
> >> > > > Sharepoint 72.1%
> >> > > > CoffeeScript 71.0%
> >> > > > LAMP 68.7%
> >> > > > Cordova 66.9%
> >> > > > Salesforce 65.4%
> >> > > > Other 61.5%
> >> > > > Perl 61.3%
> >> > > > SQL Server & SQL 60.3%
> >> > > > Objective-C 60.2%
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fsta
> >> > > ck
> >> > > overflow.com
> %2fresearch%2fdeveloper-survey-2016%23technology-most-lo
> >> > > ve
> >> > > d-dreaded-and-wanted&data=01%7c01%7crsalva%40microsoft.com
> %7c342aabb
> >> > > 95
> >> > > ca84607ba2608d34ec16bfe%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata
> >> > > =x SvTHrkLQ7Z4Z7CTctZ4rjFxaznfrPKVjqCkMzcUIpk%3d
> >> > >
> >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>.
BTW: The last one was a joke. But in all honesty, we should all spend a
bit more time on Stack seeing what's going on there with our respective
products/distributions.
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Ryan J. Salva <rs...@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Keep in mind that the answers are limited to the technologies that Stack
>> Overflow chooses to offer in their list of options. They have an "other"
>> option with a text box, but people's answers are largely driven by the
>> checkbox options.
>>
>>
> So, we somehow pissed off the Stack Overflow guys???
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager
>> Visual Studio Tools for Apache Cordova
>> rsalva@microsoft.com
>> 425 706 5270 office
>> 206 612 5079 mobile
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:21 PM
>> To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>
>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Ryan J. Salva <rs...@microsoft.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > As I told some of my co-workers today:
>> >
>> > If you read the fine print, the actual statistic is “% of developers
>> > who are developing with the language or tech but have not expressed
>> > interest in continuing to do so.” Clearly, it’s not a good list to be
>> > on, but developer behavior also doesn’t reflect their stated intent.
>> > NPM Stats show the number of Cordova downloads has actually doubled
>> > since the same time last year.
>> >
>> > Again, I don’t think this is a good list to appear on… I’m just not
>> > sure what to make of it given developer behavior.
>> >
>>
>> I'd rather be on that list instead of not be on any list. I'd be more
>> concerned with the fact that we're on the "Losers" section of the trending
>> tech with a 7% decrease in the number of questions, which indicate that
>> people either have no problems (not very likely) or are just giving up. I
>> haven't been answering questions on Stack for a while, mostly because
>> they're using some third party framework like ionic or something else.
>>
>> I also find it interesting that people are hating on Cordova, and not
>> PhoneGap, Ionic, Taco or the other distributions.
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio Tools for Apache
>> > Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com
>> > 425 706 5270 office
>> > 206 612 5079 mobile
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>> > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:08 PM
>> > To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>
>> > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>> >
>> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Jesse <pu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Never trust people's answers when you ask them what they like! They
>> > > are almost always wrong, and will tell you what they think they
>> > > like, or think they will seem cooler if they liked.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > +1
>> >
>> > It's interesting that CoffeeScript is on this list and that it passed
>> > Cordova in most dreaded. I also wonder what would happen if we went
>> > on the WordPress mailing list and talked about how people were so
>> > unhappy with WordPress.
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > > > On Mar 17, 2016, at 5:04 AM, julio cesar sanchez
>> > > > <jc...@gmail.com>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > 2016 survey is out
>> > > >
>> > > > Most Dreaded technologies:
>> > > >
>> > > > Visual Basic 79.5%
>> > > > WordPress 74.3%
>> > > > Matlab 72.8%
>> > > > Sharepoint 72.1%
>> > > > CoffeeScript 71.0%
>> > > > LAMP 68.7%
>> > > > Cordova 66.9%
>> > > > Salesforce 65.4%
>> > > > Other 61.5%
>> > > > Perl 61.3%
>> > > > SQL Server & SQL 60.3%
>> > > > Objective-C 60.2%
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fsta
>> > > ck
>> > > overflow.com%2fresearch%2fdeveloper-survey-2016%23technology-most-lo
>> > > ve
>> > > d-dreaded-and-wanted&data=01%7c01%7crsalva%40microsoft.com%7c342aabb
>> > > 95
>> > > ca84607ba2608d34ec16bfe%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata
>> > > =x SvTHrkLQ7Z4Z7CTctZ4rjFxaznfrPKVjqCkMzcUIpk%3d
>> > >
>> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>
>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Ryan J. Salva <rs...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> Keep in mind that the answers are limited to the technologies that Stack
> Overflow chooses to offer in their list of options. They have an "other"
> option with a text box, but people's answers are largely driven by the
> checkbox options.
>
>
So, we somehow pissed off the Stack Overflow guys???
>
>
> Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager
> Visual Studio Tools for Apache Cordova
> rsalva@microsoft.com
> 425 706 5270 office
> 206 612 5079 mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:21 PM
> To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Ryan J. Salva <rs...@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
>
> > As I told some of my co-workers today:
> >
> > If you read the fine print, the actual statistic is “% of developers
> > who are developing with the language or tech but have not expressed
> > interest in continuing to do so.” Clearly, it’s not a good list to be
> > on, but developer behavior also doesn’t reflect their stated intent.
> > NPM Stats show the number of Cordova downloads has actually doubled
> > since the same time last year.
> >
> > Again, I don’t think this is a good list to appear on… I’m just not
> > sure what to make of it given developer behavior.
> >
>
> I'd rather be on that list instead of not be on any list. I'd be more
> concerned with the fact that we're on the "Losers" section of the trending
> tech with a 7% decrease in the number of questions, which indicate that
> people either have no problems (not very likely) or are just giving up. I
> haven't been answering questions on Stack for a while, mostly because
> they're using some third party framework like ionic or something else.
>
> I also find it interesting that people are hating on Cordova, and not
> PhoneGap, Ionic, Taco or the other distributions.
>
>
> >
> >
> > Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio Tools for Apache
> > Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com
> > 425 706 5270 office
> > 206 612 5079 mobile
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:08 PM
> > To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>
> > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Jesse <pu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Never trust people's answers when you ask them what they like! They
> > > are almost always wrong, and will tell you what they think they
> > > like, or think they will seem cooler if they liked.
> > >
> > >
> > +1
> >
> > It's interesting that CoffeeScript is on this list and that it passed
> > Cordova in most dreaded. I also wonder what would happen if we went
> > on the WordPress mailing list and talked about how people were so
> > unhappy with WordPress.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > On Mar 17, 2016, at 5:04 AM, julio cesar sanchez
> > > > <jc...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 2016 survey is out
> > > >
> > > > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > > >
> > > > Visual Basic 79.5%
> > > > WordPress 74.3%
> > > > Matlab 72.8%
> > > > Sharepoint 72.1%
> > > > CoffeeScript 71.0%
> > > > LAMP 68.7%
> > > > Cordova 66.9%
> > > > Salesforce 65.4%
> > > > Other 61.5%
> > > > Perl 61.3%
> > > > SQL Server & SQL 60.3%
> > > > Objective-C 60.2%
> > > >
> > > >
> > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fsta
> > > ck
> > > overflow.com%2fresearch%2fdeveloper-survey-2016%23technology-most-lo
> > > ve
> > > d-dreaded-and-wanted&data=01%7c01%7crsalva%40microsoft.com%7c342aabb
> > > 95
> > > ca84607ba2608d34ec16bfe%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata
> > > =x SvTHrkLQ7Z4Z7CTctZ4rjFxaznfrPKVjqCkMzcUIpk%3d
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
>
RE: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by "Ryan J. Salva" <rs...@microsoft.com>.
Keep in mind that the answers are limited to the technologies that Stack Overflow chooses to offer in their list of options. They have an "other" option with a text box, but people's answers are largely driven by the checkbox options.
Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager
Visual Studio Tools for Apache Cordova
rsalva@microsoft.com
425 706 5270 office
206 612 5079 mobile
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:21 PM
To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Ryan J. Salva <rs...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> As I told some of my co-workers today:
>
> If you read the fine print, the actual statistic is “% of developers
> who are developing with the language or tech but have not expressed
> interest in continuing to do so.” Clearly, it’s not a good list to be
> on, but developer behavior also doesn’t reflect their stated intent.
> NPM Stats show the number of Cordova downloads has actually doubled
> since the same time last year.
>
> Again, I don’t think this is a good list to appear on… I’m just not
> sure what to make of it given developer behavior.
>
I'd rather be on that list instead of not be on any list. I'd be more concerned with the fact that we're on the "Losers" section of the trending tech with a 7% decrease in the number of questions, which indicate that people either have no problems (not very likely) or are just giving up. I haven't been answering questions on Stack for a while, mostly because they're using some third party framework like ionic or something else.
I also find it interesting that people are hating on Cordova, and not PhoneGap, Ionic, Taco or the other distributions.
>
>
> Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager Visual Studio Tools for Apache
> Cordova rsalva@microsoft.com
> 425 706 5270 office
> 206 612 5079 mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:08 PM
> To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Jesse <pu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Never trust people's answers when you ask them what they like! They
> > are almost always wrong, and will tell you what they think they
> > like, or think they will seem cooler if they liked.
> >
> >
> +1
>
> It's interesting that CoffeeScript is on this list and that it passed
> Cordova in most dreaded. I also wonder what would happen if we went
> on the WordPress mailing list and talked about how people were so
> unhappy with WordPress.
>
>
> >
> > > On Mar 17, 2016, at 5:04 AM, julio cesar sanchez
> > > <jc...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > 2016 survey is out
> > >
> > > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > >
> > > Visual Basic 79.5%
> > > WordPress 74.3%
> > > Matlab 72.8%
> > > Sharepoint 72.1%
> > > CoffeeScript 71.0%
> > > LAMP 68.7%
> > > Cordova 66.9%
> > > Salesforce 65.4%
> > > Other 61.5%
> > > Perl 61.3%
> > > SQL Server & SQL 60.3%
> > > Objective-C 60.2%
> > >
> > >
> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fsta
> > ck
> > overflow.com%2fresearch%2fdeveloper-survey-2016%23technology-most-lo
> > ve
> > d-dreaded-and-wanted&data=01%7c01%7crsalva%40microsoft.com%7c342aabb
> > 95
> > ca84607ba2608d34ec16bfe%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata
> > =x SvTHrkLQ7Z4Z7CTctZ4rjFxaznfrPKVjqCkMzcUIpk%3d
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >
> >
>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Ryan J. Salva <rs...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> As I told some of my co-workers today:
>
> If you read the fine print, the actual statistic is “% of developers who
> are developing with the language or tech but have not expressed interest in
> continuing to do so.” Clearly, it’s not a good list to be on, but developer
> behavior also doesn’t reflect their stated intent. NPM Stats show the
> number of Cordova downloads has actually doubled since the same time last
> year.
>
> Again, I don’t think this is a good list to appear on… I’m just not sure
> what to make of it given developer behavior.
>
I'd rather be on that list instead of not be on any list. I'd be more
concerned with the fact that we're on the "Losers" section of the trending
tech with a 7% decrease in the number of questions, which indicate that
people either have no problems (not very likely) or are just giving up. I
haven't been answering questions on Stack for a while, mostly because
they're using some third party framework like ionic or something else.
I also find it interesting that people are hating on Cordova, and not
PhoneGap, Ionic, Taco or the other distributions.
>
>
> Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager
> Visual Studio Tools for Apache Cordova
> rsalva@microsoft.com
> 425 706 5270 office
> 206 612 5079 mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:08 PM
> To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Jesse <pu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Never trust people's answers when you ask them what they like! They
> > are almost always wrong, and will tell you what they think they like,
> > or think they will seem cooler if they liked.
> >
> >
> +1
>
> It's interesting that CoffeeScript is on this list and that it passed
> Cordova in most dreaded. I also wonder what would happen if we went on the
> WordPress mailing list and talked about how people were so unhappy with
> WordPress.
>
>
> >
> > > On Mar 17, 2016, at 5:04 AM, julio cesar sanchez
> > > <jc...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > 2016 survey is out
> > >
> > > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > >
> > > Visual Basic 79.5%
> > > WordPress 74.3%
> > > Matlab 72.8%
> > > Sharepoint 72.1%
> > > CoffeeScript 71.0%
> > > LAMP 68.7%
> > > Cordova 66.9%
> > > Salesforce 65.4%
> > > Other 61.5%
> > > Perl 61.3%
> > > SQL Server & SQL 60.3%
> > > Objective-C 60.2%
> > >
> > >
> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fstack
> > overflow.com%2fresearch%2fdeveloper-survey-2016%23technology-most-love
> > d-dreaded-and-wanted&data=01%7c01%7crsalva%40microsoft.com%7c342aabb95
> > ca84607ba2608d34ec16bfe%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=x
> > SvTHrkLQ7Z4Z7CTctZ4rjFxaznfrPKVjqCkMzcUIpk%3d
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >
> >
>
RE: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by "Ryan J. Salva" <rs...@microsoft.com>.
As I told some of my co-workers today:
If you read the fine print, the actual statistic is “% of developers who are developing with the language or tech but have not expressed interest in continuing to do so.” Clearly, it’s not a good list to be on, but developer behavior also doesn’t reflect their stated intent. NPM Stats show the number of Cordova downloads has actually doubled since the same time last year.
Again, I don’t think this is a good list to appear on… I’m just not sure what to make of it given developer behavior.
Ryan J. Salva | Principal PM Manager
Visual Studio Tools for Apache Cordova
rsalva@microsoft.com
425 706 5270 office
206 612 5079 mobile
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:08 PM
To: dev <de...@cordova.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Jesse <pu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Never trust people's answers when you ask them what they like! They
> are almost always wrong, and will tell you what they think they like,
> or think they will seem cooler if they liked.
>
>
+1
It's interesting that CoffeeScript is on this list and that it passed Cordova in most dreaded. I also wonder what would happen if we went on the WordPress mailing list and talked about how people were so unhappy with WordPress.
>
> > On Mar 17, 2016, at 5:04 AM, julio cesar sanchez
> > <jc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > 2016 survey is out
> >
> > Most Dreaded technologies:
> >
> > Visual Basic 79.5%
> > WordPress 74.3%
> > Matlab 72.8%
> > Sharepoint 72.1%
> > CoffeeScript 71.0%
> > LAMP 68.7%
> > Cordova 66.9%
> > Salesforce 65.4%
> > Other 61.5%
> > Perl 61.3%
> > SQL Server & SQL 60.3%
> > Objective-C 60.2%
> >
> >
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fstack
> overflow.com%2fresearch%2fdeveloper-survey-2016%23technology-most-love
> d-dreaded-and-wanted&data=01%7c01%7crsalva%40microsoft.com%7c342aabb95
> ca84607ba2608d34ec16bfe%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=x
> SvTHrkLQ7Z4Z7CTctZ4rjFxaznfrPKVjqCkMzcUIpk%3d
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Jesse <pu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Never trust people's answers when you ask them what they like! They are
> almost always wrong, and will tell you what they think they like, or think
> they will seem cooler if they liked.
>
>
+1
It's interesting that CoffeeScript is on this list and that it passed
Cordova in most dreaded. I also wonder what would happen if we went on the
WordPress mailing list and talked about how people were so unhappy with
WordPress.
>
> > On Mar 17, 2016, at 5:04 AM, julio cesar sanchez <jc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > 2016 survey is out
> >
> > Most Dreaded technologies:
> >
> > Visual Basic 79.5%
> > WordPress 74.3%
> > Matlab 72.8%
> > Sharepoint 72.1%
> > CoffeeScript 71.0%
> > LAMP 68.7%
> > Cordova 66.9%
> > Salesforce 65.4%
> > Other 61.5%
> > Perl 61.3%
> > SQL Server & SQL 60.3%
> > Objective-C 60.2%
> >
> >
> https://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2016#technology-most-loved-dreaded-and-wanted
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Jesse <pu...@gmail.com>.
Never trust people's answers when you ask them what they like! They are almost always wrong, and will tell you what they think they like, or think they will seem cooler if they liked.
> On Mar 17, 2016, at 5:04 AM, julio cesar sanchez <jc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 2016 survey is out
>
> Most Dreaded technologies:
>
> Visual Basic 79.5%
> WordPress 74.3%
> Matlab 72.8%
> Sharepoint 72.1%
> CoffeeScript 71.0%
> LAMP 68.7%
> Cordova 66.9%
> Salesforce 65.4%
> Other 61.5%
> Perl 61.3%
> SQL Server & SQL 60.3%
> Objective-C 60.2%
>
> https://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2016#technology-most-loved-dreaded-and-wanted
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by julio cesar sanchez <jc...@gmail.com>.
2016 survey is out
Most Dreaded technologies:
Visual Basic 79.5%
WordPress 74.3%
Matlab 72.8%
Sharepoint 72.1%
CoffeeScript 71.0%
LAMP 68.7%
Cordova 66.9%
Salesforce 65.4%
Other 61.5%
Perl 61.3%
SQL Server & SQL 60.3%
Objective-C 60.2%
https://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2016#technology-most-loved-dreaded-and-wanted
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by "Ryan J. Salva" <rs...@microsoft.com>.
Tammo,
Sorry you won't be able to make it. We would have loved to have you here. For at least part of the meetup, we'll host an online meeting for others to join remotely. Maybe you can join that way? Stay tuned for details.
rjs
Sent from a mobile device.
> On Aug 29, 2015, at 6:58 AM, Tammo Schimanski <ta...@cordova.de> wrote:
>
> Hey Tim and thanks for your reply!
>
> I already looked for flights but i think it’s a bit too short now. Flights from here to america are at about 800€ ( approx. 900$) + a cheap Hotel and i’m over 1.000$ which is unfortunately to expensive for me. Being a member of this e-mail list now helps me a lot to understand whats happening in the background.
>
> If there is a small summary from the face 2 face meeting, i would be happy to get that.
>
> Nice Weekend for you all!
>
> Tammo
>
>
>
>
> Am [DATE] schrieb "Tim Barham" <[ADDRESS]>:
>
>> Thanks for this info, Tammo - this is all great stuff, and it sounds like the German Cordova community owes you a lot! I have a couple of comments:
>>
>> 1. In the Cordova community (or any Apache community), nobody should consider themselves a small person :). Individual contributions are what Apache projects are all about (or should be). While some of us might have https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=microsoft.com&data=01%7c01%7crsalva%40microsoft.com%7c4f314fdcd9cf4028207008d2b079de75%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=1fXDJGl53w%2fiT8BiTLN1NeTA6UVbKljY3KsrWEOrPLY%3d or https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=intel.com&data=01%7c01%7crsalva%40microsoft.com%7c4f314fdcd9cf4028207008d2b079de75%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=j6mrQnVDUAEG71wtBh7aXc8JkuDeFqucwH2HPj0uLAA%3d or https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=adobe.com&data=01%7c01%7crsalva%40microsoft.com%7c4f314fdcd9cf4028207008d2b079de75%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=Oq12Zq%2bbpIgcEqaLbyjkEpfT9GFfTbPK7LIU1oHSxpY%3d email addresses, in the long run our contributions are no more important than anybody else's (we just have the good fortune of doing it for our day job :) ).
>>
>> 2. I know this was already mentioned by Julio, but it seems to me you would definitely be welcome at the face 2 face meeting if you felt it might be of benefit. It sounds to me like it would be a great opportunity if you could make it.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tammo Schimanski [mailto:tammo.schimanski@cordova.de]
>> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2015 8:17 PM
>> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>
>> Hello to all of you from Germany,
>> i never wrote an e-mail to this list before but i want to tell you something about the situation over here.
>>
>> I started developing applications with Cordova two years ago. It wasn’t easy to understand how Cordova works and how it has to be used. The docs didn’t help me enough so that i had to spend many hours in watching video tutorials on youtube and read many articles about the cordova workflow.
>>
>> After i developed applications for over a year, i decided to found a german community which helps users who feel like i felt a year ago. At the End of 2014 i wrote e-mails to apache, registered domains and invested many hours in research and writing tutorials, blog articles and so on. Down to the present day the main Tutorials (iOS & Android) were viewed over 40.000 times. We have about 800 visits a day and are helping all people with their questions inside the board. Stackoverflow is also a great way to help people but not all german developers are able to ask a question in english (although you might thought that they are).
>>
>> My target ever was to help people who are sitting in front of their computers and thinking „hey… why aren’t you working cordova“ or „why doesn’t it work like expected“? In spring 2015 my colleague and i decided to make all a bit more professional. We weren’t satisfied by the website because all was a bit heavy to find (Tutorials etc.) and it was not state of the art. Again: E-Mails to apache, registered a new domain and now we’re starting a big project under https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.cordova.de&data=01%7c01%7cTBARHAM%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c92b01a5e6bba44c1208608d2af91e9ab%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=DWV2Gp%2btg2ekG6MvC1Ra9IMfFh3ceDWQUwjrRFAjaXM%3d (first look for you: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.cordova.de%2fdev&data=01%7c01%7cTBARHAM%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c92b01a5e6bba44c1208608d2af91e9ab%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=AX4broDgZmgkyx6ljiVci1OTd%2fMRkZXM7KqK3ECA%2bzc%3d). I had to rewrite all tutorials, because its still our aim to make it understandable and clear for everyone! Till now we spent already over 250 hours together for the new project - but it is no problem: We love cordova! The Project will start at the end of September this year. Cordova is a possibility for companys creating a new branch. Every websitedeveloper is able to develop applications with Cordova - but not every Developer knows this. We want to spread cordova to every developer inside Germany!
>>
>> So yes, why am i writing you this all? I think, in comparison to you i’m a small person. If i see all the people here getting e-mails to @https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=microsoft.com&data=01%7c01%7cTBARHAM%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c92b01a5e6bba44c1208608d2af91e9ab%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=TkAyBoWRDD87phXTuwk5Ut4kRD1pf9yEqaKc0OoZ2Rs%3d, @https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=intel.com&data=01%7c01%7cTBARHAM%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c92b01a5e6bba44c1208608d2af91e9ab%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3ZP1F9eBjoU68%2bRDamnegwZ3kszlp%2baOveRcsDlyIVI%3d and so on…yes, i’m a small person. I just want to let you know, that if we can do anything from the other side of the big pond: Please let us know - we’re here, waiting for your instructions :-).
>>
>> I don’t know if this „Cordova face to face meeting“ is open for all but my colleague and i thought about coming to that meeting. Only because we’re interested into getting a deeper look into things and because we both want to get better and better. The better we get, the better we can help the users in understanding cordova.
>>
>> Belonging to the topic, Stackoverflow, frustration etc. - i understand Jesse Monroy. A big problem is that in many cases you just can post links „look here“ „read this“ etc. and if you give a detailed answer, you’ll never hear something again from that user like „worked for me“ or „no this doesn’t work“. Thats why we also created a „first steps in cordova“ guide on our new website in which all mistakes which can be done are explained.
>>
>> Okay so… at least, sorry if something is unclear or understandable. I hope that it was at least a little bit interesting for you to get some feedback from Germany.
>>
>> Greetings from
>> Tammo Schimanski
>>
>>
>> E-Mail: tammo.schimanski@cordova.de
>> Phone / Whatsapp: + 49 162 40 98 169
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Am [DATE] schrieb "julio cesar sanchez" <[ADDRESS]>:
>>
>>> I would like to bring this topic back because I've seen two things
>>> recently that worried me
>>>
>>> First one on the google group "Frustration in the forum"
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fgroups
>>> .google.com%2fforum%2f%23!topic%2fphonegap%2fD7ydf_hNq-w&data=01%7c01%7
>>> cTBARHAM%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c92b01a5e6bba44c1208608d2af91e9ab%7c
>>> 72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=1Oi55qjHPNIa93Qwhn%2fglWTziW
>>> 1vY8ZcKxp8M3JHRZ4%3d
>>>
>>> Second one, increasing number of unanswered questions on stackoverflow
>>> (from
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fstackov
>>> erflow.com%2ftags%2fcordova%2ftopusers&data=01%7c01%7cTBARHAM%40064d.mg
>>> d.microsoft.com%7c92b01a5e6bba44c1208608d2af91e9ab%7c72f988bf86f141af91
>>> ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=ePFNX11aAOUF%2frRpMUGvDlMuuVNxbzVoqRb07hTzGHM%
>>> 3d)
>>>
>>> cordova Questions
>>> 259 Last 7 Days 79.9% unanswered
>>> 1,172 Last 30 Days 75.7% unanswered
>>> 37,119 All Time 46.4% unanswered
>>>
>>>
>>> I think it's related with the "Frustration in the forum", a lot of
>>> questions are from newbiews and low quality so nobody answer them (not
>>> sure if this happens with other tags or just with cordova)
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
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---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Tammo Schimanski <ta...@cordova.de>.
Hey Tim and thanks for your reply!
I already looked for flights but i think it’s a bit too short now. Flights from here to america are at about 800€ ( approx. 900$) + a cheap Hotel and i’m over 1.000$ which is unfortunately to expensive for me. Being a member of this e-mail list now helps me a lot to understand whats happening in the background.
If there is a small summary from the face 2 face meeting, i would be happy to get that.
Nice Weekend for you all!
Tammo
Am [DATE] schrieb "Tim Barham" <[ADDRESS]>:
>Thanks for this info, Tammo - this is all great stuff, and it sounds like the German Cordova community owes you a lot! I have a couple of comments:
>
>1. In the Cordova community (or any Apache community), nobody should consider themselves a small person :). Individual contributions are what Apache projects are all about (or should be). While some of us might have microsoft.com or intel.com or adobe.com email addresses, in the long run our contributions are no more important than anybody else's (we just have the good fortune of doing it for our day job :) ).
>
>2. I know this was already mentioned by Julio, but it seems to me you would definitely be welcome at the face 2 face meeting if you felt it might be of benefit. It sounds to me like it would be a great opportunity if you could make it.
>
>Tim
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tammo Schimanski [mailto:tammo.schimanski@cordova.de]
>Sent: Friday, August 28, 2015 8:17 PM
>To: dev@cordova.apache.org
>Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>
>Hello to all of you from Germany,
>i never wrote an e-mail to this list before but i want to tell you something about the situation over here.
>
>I started developing applications with Cordova two years ago. It wasn’t easy to understand how Cordova works and how it has to be used. The docs didn’t help me enough so that i had to spend many hours in watching video tutorials on youtube and read many articles about the cordova workflow.
>
>After i developed applications for over a year, i decided to found a german community which helps users who feel like i felt a year ago. At the End of 2014 i wrote e-mails to apache, registered domains and invested many hours in research and writing tutorials, blog articles and so on. Down to the present day the main Tutorials (iOS & Android) were viewed over 40.000 times. We have about 800 visits a day and are helping all people with their questions inside the board. Stackoverflow is also a great way to help people but not all german developers are able to ask a question in english (although you might thought that they are).
>
>My target ever was to help people who are sitting in front of their computers and thinking „hey… why aren’t you working cordova“ or „why doesn’t it work like expected“? In spring 2015 my colleague and i decided to make all a bit more professional. We weren’t satisfied by the website because all was a bit heavy to find (Tutorials etc.) and it was not state of the art. Again: E-Mails to apache, registered a new domain and now we’re starting a big project under https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.cordova.de&data=01%7c01%7cTBARHAM%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c92b01a5e6bba44c1208608d2af91e9ab%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=DWV2Gp%2btg2ekG6MvC1Ra9IMfFh3ceDWQUwjrRFAjaXM%3d (first look for you: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.cordova.de%2fdev&data=01%7c01%7cTBARHAM%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c92b01a5e6bba44c1208608d2af91e9ab%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=AX4broDgZmgkyx6ljiVci1OTd%2fMRkZXM7KqK3ECA%2bzc%3d). I had to rewrite all tutorials, because its still our aim to make it understandable and clear for everyone! Till now we spent already over 250 hours together for the new project - but it is no problem: We love cordova! The Project will start at the end of September this year. Cordova is a possibility for companys creating a new branch. Every websitedeveloper is able to develop applications with Cordova - but not every Developer knows this. We want to spread cordova to every developer inside Germany!
>
>So yes, why am i writing you this all? I think, in comparison to you i’m a small person. If i see all the people here getting e-mails to @https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=microsoft.com&data=01%7c01%7cTBARHAM%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c92b01a5e6bba44c1208608d2af91e9ab%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=TkAyBoWRDD87phXTuwk5Ut4kRD1pf9yEqaKc0OoZ2Rs%3d, @https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=intel.com&data=01%7c01%7cTBARHAM%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c92b01a5e6bba44c1208608d2af91e9ab%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3ZP1F9eBjoU68%2bRDamnegwZ3kszlp%2baOveRcsDlyIVI%3d and so on…yes, i’m a small person. I just want to let you know, that if we can do anything from the other side of the big pond: Please let us know - we’re here, waiting for your instructions :-).
>
>I don’t know if this „Cordova face to face meeting“ is open for all but my colleague and i thought about coming to that meeting. Only because we’re interested into getting a deeper look into things and because we both want to get better and better. The better we get, the better we can help the users in understanding cordova.
>
>Belonging to the topic, Stackoverflow, frustration etc. - i understand Jesse Monroy. A big problem is that in many cases you just can post links „look here“ „read this“ etc. and if you give a detailed answer, you’ll never hear something again from that user like „worked for me“ or „no this doesn’t work“. Thats why we also created a „first steps in cordova“ guide on our new website in which all mistakes which can be done are explained.
>
>Okay so… at least, sorry if something is unclear or understandable. I hope that it was at least a little bit interesting for you to get some feedback from Germany.
>
>Greetings from
>Tammo Schimanski
>
>
>E-Mail: tammo.schimanski@cordova.de
>Phone / Whatsapp: + 49 162 40 98 169
>
>
>
>
>
>Am [DATE] schrieb "julio cesar sanchez" <[ADDRESS]>:
>
>>I would like to bring this topic back because I've seen two things
>>recently that worried me
>>
>>First one on the google group "Frustration in the forum"
>>https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fgroups
>>.google.com%2fforum%2f%23!topic%2fphonegap%2fD7ydf_hNq-w&data=01%7c01%7
>>cTBARHAM%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c92b01a5e6bba44c1208608d2af91e9ab%7c
>>72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=1Oi55qjHPNIa93Qwhn%2fglWTziW
>>1vY8ZcKxp8M3JHRZ4%3d
>>
>>Second one, increasing number of unanswered questions on stackoverflow
>>(from
>>https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fstackov
>>erflow.com%2ftags%2fcordova%2ftopusers&data=01%7c01%7cTBARHAM%40064d.mg
>>d.microsoft.com%7c92b01a5e6bba44c1208608d2af91e9ab%7c72f988bf86f141af91
>>ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=ePFNX11aAOUF%2frRpMUGvDlMuuVNxbzVoqRb07hTzGHM%
>>3d)
>>
>>cordova Questions
>>259 Last 7 Days 79.9% unanswered
>>1,172 Last 30 Days 75.7% unanswered
>>37,119 All Time 46.4% unanswered
>>
>>
>>I think it's related with the "Frustration in the forum", a lot of
>>questions are from newbiews and low quality so nobody answer them (not
>>sure if this happens with other tags or just with cordova)
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
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RE: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Tim Barham <Ti...@microsoft.com>.
Thanks for this info, Tammo - this is all great stuff, and it sounds like the German Cordova community owes you a lot! I have a couple of comments:
1. In the Cordova community (or any Apache community), nobody should consider themselves a small person :). Individual contributions are what Apache projects are all about (or should be). While some of us might have microsoft.com or intel.com or adobe.com email addresses, in the long run our contributions are no more important than anybody else's (we just have the good fortune of doing it for our day job :) ).
2. I know this was already mentioned by Julio, but it seems to me you would definitely be welcome at the face 2 face meeting if you felt it might be of benefit. It sounds to me like it would be a great opportunity if you could make it.
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: Tammo Schimanski [mailto:tammo.schimanski@cordova.de]
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2015 8:17 PM
To: dev@cordova.apache.org
Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Hello to all of you from Germany,
i never wrote an e-mail to this list before but i want to tell you something about the situation over here.
I started developing applications with Cordova two years ago. It wasn’t easy to understand how Cordova works and how it has to be used. The docs didn’t help me enough so that i had to spend many hours in watching video tutorials on youtube and read many articles about the cordova workflow.
After i developed applications for over a year, i decided to found a german community which helps users who feel like i felt a year ago. At the End of 2014 i wrote e-mails to apache, registered domains and invested many hours in research and writing tutorials, blog articles and so on. Down to the present day the main Tutorials (iOS & Android) were viewed over 40.000 times. We have about 800 visits a day and are helping all people with their questions inside the board. Stackoverflow is also a great way to help people but not all german developers are able to ask a question in english (although you might thought that they are).
My target ever was to help people who are sitting in front of their computers and thinking „hey… why aren’t you working cordova“ or „why doesn’t it work like expected“? In spring 2015 my colleague and i decided to make all a bit more professional. We weren’t satisfied by the website because all was a bit heavy to find (Tutorials etc.) and it was not state of the art. Again: E-Mails to apache, registered a new domain and now we’re starting a big project under https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.cordova.de&data=01%7c01%7cTBARHAM%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c92b01a5e6bba44c1208608d2af91e9ab%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=DWV2Gp%2btg2ekG6MvC1Ra9IMfFh3ceDWQUwjrRFAjaXM%3d (first look for you: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.cordova.de%2fdev&data=01%7c01%7cTBARHAM%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c92b01a5e6bba44c1208608d2af91e9ab%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=AX4broDgZmgkyx6ljiVci1OTd%2fMRkZXM7KqK3ECA%2bzc%3d). I had to rewrite all tutorials, because its still our aim to make it understandable and clear for everyone! Till now we spent already over 250 hours together for the new project - but it is no problem: We love cordova! The Project will start at the end of September this year. Cordova is a possibility for companys creating a new branch. Every websitedeveloper is able to develop applications with Cordova - but not every Developer knows this. We want to spread cordova to every developer inside Germany!
So yes, why am i writing you this all? I think, in comparison to you i’m a small person. If i see all the people here getting e-mails to @https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=microsoft.com&data=01%7c01%7cTBARHAM%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c92b01a5e6bba44c1208608d2af91e9ab%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=TkAyBoWRDD87phXTuwk5Ut4kRD1pf9yEqaKc0OoZ2Rs%3d, @https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=intel.com&data=01%7c01%7cTBARHAM%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c92b01a5e6bba44c1208608d2af91e9ab%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=3ZP1F9eBjoU68%2bRDamnegwZ3kszlp%2baOveRcsDlyIVI%3d and so on…yes, i’m a small person. I just want to let you know, that if we can do anything from the other side of the big pond: Please let us know - we’re here, waiting for your instructions :-).
I don’t know if this „Cordova face to face meeting“ is open for all but my colleague and i thought about coming to that meeting. Only because we’re interested into getting a deeper look into things and because we both want to get better and better. The better we get, the better we can help the users in understanding cordova.
Belonging to the topic, Stackoverflow, frustration etc. - i understand Jesse Monroy. A big problem is that in many cases you just can post links „look here“ „read this“ etc. and if you give a detailed answer, you’ll never hear something again from that user like „worked for me“ or „no this doesn’t work“. Thats why we also created a „first steps in cordova“ guide on our new website in which all mistakes which can be done are explained.
Okay so… at least, sorry if something is unclear or understandable. I hope that it was at least a little bit interesting for you to get some feedback from Germany.
Greetings from
Tammo Schimanski
E-Mail: tammo.schimanski@cordova.de
Phone / Whatsapp: + 49 162 40 98 169
Am [DATE] schrieb "julio cesar sanchez" <[ADDRESS]>:
>I would like to bring this topic back because I've seen two things
>recently that worried me
>
>First one on the google group "Frustration in the forum"
>https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fgroups
>.google.com%2fforum%2f%23!topic%2fphonegap%2fD7ydf_hNq-w&data=01%7c01%7
>cTBARHAM%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c92b01a5e6bba44c1208608d2af91e9ab%7c
>72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=1Oi55qjHPNIa93Qwhn%2fglWTziW
>1vY8ZcKxp8M3JHRZ4%3d
>
>Second one, increasing number of unanswered questions on stackoverflow
>(from
>https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fstackov
>erflow.com%2ftags%2fcordova%2ftopusers&data=01%7c01%7cTBARHAM%40064d.mg
>d.microsoft.com%7c92b01a5e6bba44c1208608d2af91e9ab%7c72f988bf86f141af91
>ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=ePFNX11aAOUF%2frRpMUGvDlMuuVNxbzVoqRb07hTzGHM%
>3d)
>
>cordova Questions
>259 Last 7 Days 79.9% unanswered
>1,172 Last 30 Days 75.7% unanswered
>37,119 All Time 46.4% unanswered
>
>
>I think it's related with the "Frustration in the forum", a lot of
>questions are from newbiews and low quality so nobody answer them (not
>sure if this happens with other tags or just with cordova)
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Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Tammo Schimanski <ta...@cordova.de>.
Hello to all of you from Germany,
i never wrote an e-mail to this list before but i want to tell you something about the situation over here.
I started developing applications with Cordova two years ago. It wasn’t easy to understand how Cordova works and how it has to be used. The docs didn’t help me enough so that i had to spend many hours in watching video tutorials on youtube and read many articles about the cordova workflow.
After i developed applications for over a year, i decided to found a german community which helps users who feel like i felt a year ago. At the End of 2014 i wrote e-mails to apache, registered domains and invested many hours in research and writing tutorials, blog articles and so on. Down to the present day the main Tutorials (iOS & Android) were viewed over 40.000 times. We have about 800 visits a day and are helping all people with their questions inside the board. Stackoverflow is also a great way to help people but not all german developers are able to ask a question in english (although you might thought that they are).
My target ever was to help people who are sitting in front of their computers and thinking „hey… why aren’t you working cordova“ or „why doesn’t it work like expected“? In spring 2015 my colleague and i decided to make all a bit more professional. We weren’t satisfied by the website because all was a bit heavy to find (Tutorials etc.) and it was not state of the art. Again: E-Mails to apache, registered a new domain and now we’re starting a big project under www.cordova.de (first look for you: www.cordova.de/dev). I had to rewrite all tutorials, because its still our aim to make it understandable and clear for everyone! Till now we spent already over 250 hours together for the new project - but it is no problem: We love cordova! The Project will start at the end of September this year. Cordova is a possibility for companys creating a new branch. Every websitedeveloper is able to develop applications with Cordova - but not every Developer knows this. We want to spread cordova to every developer inside Germany!
So yes, why am i writing you this all? I think, in comparison to you i’m a small person. If i see all the people here getting e-mails to @microsoft.com, @intel.com and so on…yes, i’m a small person. I just want to let you know, that if we can do anything from the other side of the big pond: Please let us know - we’re here, waiting for your instructions :-).
I don’t know if this „Cordova face to face meeting“ is open for all but my colleague and i thought about coming to that meeting. Only because we’re interested into getting a deeper look into things and because we both want to get better and better. The better we get, the better we can help the users in understanding cordova.
Belonging to the topic, Stackoverflow, frustration etc. - i understand Jesse Monroy. A big problem is that in many cases you just can post links „look here“ „read this“ etc. and if you give a detailed answer, you’ll never hear something again from that user like „worked for me“ or „no this doesn’t work“. Thats why we also created a „first steps in cordova“ guide on our new website in which all mistakes which can be done are explained.
Okay so… at least, sorry if something is unclear or understandable. I hope that it was at least a little bit interesting for you to get some feedback from Germany.
Greetings from
Tammo Schimanski
E-Mail: tammo.schimanski@cordova.de
Phone / Whatsapp: + 49 162 40 98 169
Am [DATE] schrieb "julio cesar sanchez" <[ADDRESS]>:
>I would like to bring this topic back because I've seen two things recently
>that worried me
>
>First one on the google group "Frustration in the forum"
>https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/phonegap/D7ydf_hNq-w
>
>Second one, increasing number of unanswered questions on stackoverflow
>(from http://stackoverflow.com/tags/cordova/topusers)
>
>cordova Questions
>259 Last 7 Days 79.9% unanswered
>1,172 Last 30 Days 75.7% unanswered
>37,119 All Time 46.4% unanswered
>
>
>I think it's related with the "Frustration in the forum", a lot of
>questions are from newbiews and low quality so nobody answer them (not sure
>if this happens with other tags or just with cordova)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by julio cesar sanchez <jc...@gmail.com>.
I would like to bring this topic back because I've seen two things recently
that worried me
First one on the google group "Frustration in the forum"
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/phonegap/D7ydf_hNq-w
Second one, increasing number of unanswered questions on stackoverflow
(from http://stackoverflow.com/tags/cordova/topusers)
cordova Questions
259 Last 7 Days 79.9% unanswered
1,172 Last 30 Days 75.7% unanswered
37,119 All Time 46.4% unanswered
I think it's related with the "Frustration in the forum", a lot of
questions are from newbiews and low quality so nobody answer them (not sure
if this happens with other tags or just with cordova)
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Steven Gill <st...@gmail.com>.
Thanks Parashuram!
I added a few more points to it.
On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 4:50 PM, Parashuram N (MS OPEN TECH) <
panarasi@microsoft.com> wrote:
> I think we had some really great ideas here and I think as a community, we
> can make Cordova better by improving our documentation.
>
> I started a new "Proposal" here -
> https://github.com/cordova/cordova-discuss/blob/master/proposals/ImprovedDocumentation.md
> to try and collect topics for articles that may be helpful, and add
> suggestions. It would be great if folks who responded on the thread add
> their ideas to the document.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frederico Galvão [mailto:frederico.galvao@pontoget.com.br]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 7:11 AM
> To: dev
> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>
> As someone who has given a couple of local speechs and presentations about
> Cordova, I could say with some certainty that most of the time what makes
> Cordova a not-so-well known tool is the misconception about what it's aimed
> at doing, and incoherent expectations towards what it CAN do for the
> developer.
>
> Other than that, and all the small things that have been already mentioned
> previously by everyone, I'd say that web development (the one out there,
> not the one defined by ES{6,7,8} or future dream
> tools/standards/frameworks) in general is still not ready to what is
> needed for mobile development to be taken seriously and be able to build
> complex applications successfully. Very few development teams have enough
> awareness of how much more is needed on a well built application other than
> jQuery and 256 plugins.
>
> In the end, everything sums up to how well defined expectations are. And
> I'm sure Cordova, along with its website and documentation, can be a lot
> better at guiding developers to better expectations towards everything that
> can be expected from cordova, and what can't.
>
> I'm interested in contributing to this in whatever small way I can.
>
> 2015-04-19 21:48 GMT-03:00 Parashuram N (MS OPEN TECH) <
> panarasi@microsoft.com>:
>
> > I think FAQs, tutorials and blogs are great. I would also like to
> > contribute to this. Maybe a good start would be to identify a the
> > topics that require a blog post ?
> > If we have a list of things to blog about, I am sure the community can
> > come up with the actual articles and blog posts.
> > I am sure my team would love to help with the content. Should we start
> > putting together a list of topics that would need tutorials ?
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kerri Shotts [mailto:kerrishotts@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 8:57 PM
> > To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >
> > I had similar ideas about writing some FAQs or posts. Great minds
> > clearly think alike, right? ;-) (I'm joking. I know my mind... so not
> > great... Wait... that might actually be an insult to everyone else. The
> > only way to win is not to play! Aaaaaaaaaah! Clearly I need to go to
> > bed. I've been staring at my latest book's chapter for way too long.)
> >
> > In fact, I've toyed with the idea of doing some screencasts using
> > Cordova and the various tools I use with it (like gulp, browserify,
> > and babeljs), and these could make some excellent topics as well.
> > Especially debugging, because it's not always enough just to say
> > "here's where you go to start debugging remotely". Debugging is a
> > skill (an art, really), so I could see a lot from that topic alone,
> > but geared more directly at typical debugging issues one finds in
> Cordova dev. Hmm. Where to find the hours in the day?
> > Or a clone... I could really use a clone...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Raymond Camden <ra...@gmail.com>
> > Reply: dev@cordova.apache.org <de...@cordova.apache.org>>
> > Date: April 13, 2015 at 8:18:39 PM
> > To: dev@cordova.apache.org <de...@cordova.apache.org>>
> > Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >
> > Like Tommy, I may steal some of these for blog posts -
> >
> > "People is having troubles connecting with the server, some of them
> > > because use localhost as the url, others because they don't
> > > configure the whitelist properly, others for unknow reasons"
> >
> > As for the debug one, I ask, "Do you know how to remote debug?" about
> > 5-10 times a week now. Sadly, now that it is so DARN easy to debug,
> > folks just don't seem to know they CAN do it.
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 6:49 PM, tommy-carlos williams
> > <to...@devgeeks.org>
> > wrote:
> > > If no one else has time to do something with this list by the time I
> > > get
> > free of my current stress-pile (say a couple weeks from now), I would
> > love to take a crack at it. An FAQ with not just the list, but actual
> > solutions and examples would be a great resource.
> > >
> > > Even if someone else does it, I might use it as the basis for a
> > > series of blog posts or something. It's such a good summary of
> > > people's frustrations. I would probably even have one or two to add
> > > from the #phonegap IRC channel.. :/
> > >
> > > --
> > > tommy-carlos williams
> > >
> > > On 14 April 2015 at 08:16:56, Josh Soref (jsoref@blackberry.com)
> wrote:
> > >
> > > So, I want someone to make this into a FAQ, somehow.
> > >
> > > I don't have time today, but it's a really great list.
> > >
> > > Bonus points for getting it Stickied at the top of StackOverflow.
> > >
> > > (obviously, it should include some explanation of how to correct
> > > these things, and thankfully most are pretty easy to address.)
> > >
> > > Some are probably asking for samples (e.g. a "how to do things
> > > slowly/choppily w/ left: vs. how to use CSS transitions" --
> > > Raymond?)
> > >
> > > Julio wrote an amazing summary of Cordova Stack Overflow posts:
> > >> I read most of the questions with cordova tag on stackoverflow and
> > >> the questions on the google group and I see this problems.
> > >>
> > >> - Some people don't read the docs
> > >> - Some people read the wrong docs (they use cordova 2.9.1 because
> > >> it's the latest they can download, but read the edge docs and
> > >> things don't work as
> > >> expected)
> > >> - Some people follow old tutorials instead of reading the docs and
> > >> the things have changed a lot and don't work.
> > >> - Some people don't need cordova but use it anyway, they just want
> > >> a webview to show their website
> > >> - Some people use j***** ****** (I don't want to name it either)
> > >> and blame cordova for the slowness
> > >> - With cordova everybody can create apps, but configuring the PATH
> > >> isn't easy for most people, a lot of questions are realated to
> > >> this, they didn't configure the PATH, they did it but wrong, they
> > >> don't know they have to set it (see my first point)
> > >> - People is still confused about the difference between phonegap,
> > >> cordova and phonegap build service, I see people using phonegap CLI
> > >> for local development but try to "install" the plugins putting the
> > >> phonegap build plugin config line on the config.xml (again, people
> > >> don't read or don't understand the docs)
> > >> - People want to use eclipse (now android studio) for the
> > >> development, they google and see blog post about a plugin, but that
> > >> plugin is very old and uses phonegap 1.x.x (see my second point)
> > >> - People is having troubles connecting with the server, some of
> > >> them because use localhost as the url, others because they don't
> > >> configure the whitelist properly, others for unknow reasons.
> > >> - Some of them discover bugs, but instead of reporting them so it
> > >> can be fixed, just ask on stackoverflow why it doesn't work.
> > >> - Most people don't know how to debug, then if something doesn't
> > >> work just complain.
> > >> - Some people forget to link the cordova.js file, they create the
> > >> project and replace the index.html with the index.html of their
> website.
> > >> - Some people blame cordova when the problem is the webview (old
> > >> android devices).
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> About people that used cordova and are now developing in native, I
> > >> bet most of them tried cordova on android 2.x.x with j***** ******
> > >> and it was slow, they read the articles about facebook and linkedin
> > >> dropping html5 and switching to native and did the same, and after
> > >> the effort they put on learning native development they don't wan't
> > >> to go back and will tell everybody cordova is bad because it was
> > >> slow
> > when they tried it years ago.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ======================================================================
> > ===== Raymond Camden, Developer Advocate for MobileFirst at IBM
> >
> > Email : raymondcamden@gmail.com
> > Blog : www.raymondcamden.com
> > Twitter: raymondcamden
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> *Frederico Galvão*
>
> Diretor de Tecnologia
>
> PontoGet Inovação Web
>
>
> ( +55(62) 8131-5720
>
> * www.pontoget.com.br <http://www.pontoget.com/>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
RE: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by "Parashuram N (MS OPEN TECH)" <pa...@microsoft.com>.
I think we had some really great ideas here and I think as a community, we can make Cordova better by improving our documentation.
I started a new "Proposal" here - https://github.com/cordova/cordova-discuss/blob/master/proposals/ImprovedDocumentation.md to try and collect topics for articles that may be helpful, and add suggestions. It would be great if folks who responded on the thread add their ideas to the document.
-----Original Message-----
From: Frederico Galvão [mailto:frederico.galvao@pontoget.com.br]
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2015 7:11 AM
To: dev
Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
As someone who has given a couple of local speechs and presentations about Cordova, I could say with some certainty that most of the time what makes Cordova a not-so-well known tool is the misconception about what it's aimed at doing, and incoherent expectations towards what it CAN do for the developer.
Other than that, and all the small things that have been already mentioned previously by everyone, I'd say that web development (the one out there, not the one defined by ES{6,7,8} or future dream
tools/standards/frameworks) in general is still not ready to what is needed for mobile development to be taken seriously and be able to build complex applications successfully. Very few development teams have enough awareness of how much more is needed on a well built application other than jQuery and 256 plugins.
In the end, everything sums up to how well defined expectations are. And I'm sure Cordova, along with its website and documentation, can be a lot better at guiding developers to better expectations towards everything that can be expected from cordova, and what can't.
I'm interested in contributing to this in whatever small way I can.
2015-04-19 21:48 GMT-03:00 Parashuram N (MS OPEN TECH) <
panarasi@microsoft.com>:
> I think FAQs, tutorials and blogs are great. I would also like to
> contribute to this. Maybe a good start would be to identify a the
> topics that require a blog post ?
> If we have a list of things to blog about, I am sure the community can
> come up with the actual articles and blog posts.
> I am sure my team would love to help with the content. Should we start
> putting together a list of topics that would need tutorials ?
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kerri Shotts [mailto:kerrishotts@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 8:57 PM
> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>
> I had similar ideas about writing some FAQs or posts. Great minds
> clearly think alike, right? ;-) (I’m joking. I know my mind… so not
> great… Wait… that might actually be an insult to everyone else. The
> only way to win is not to play! Aaaaaaaaaah! Clearly I need to go to
> bed. I’ve been staring at my latest book’s chapter for way too long.)
>
> In fact, I’ve toyed with the idea of doing some screencasts using
> Cordova and the various tools I use with it (like gulp, browserify,
> and babeljs), and these could make some excellent topics as well.
> Especially debugging, because it’s not always enough just to say
> “here’s where you go to start debugging remotely”. Debugging is a
> skill (an art, really), so I could see a lot from that topic alone,
> but geared more directly at typical debugging issues one finds in Cordova dev. Hmm. Where to find the hours in the day?
> Or a clone… I could really use a clone…
>
>
>
>
> From: Raymond Camden <ra...@gmail.com>
> Reply: dev@cordova.apache.org <de...@cordova.apache.org>>
> Date: April 13, 2015 at 8:18:39 PM
> To: dev@cordova.apache.org <de...@cordova.apache.org>>
> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>
> Like Tommy, I may steal some of these for blog posts -
>
> "People is having troubles connecting with the server, some of them
> > because use localhost as the url, others because they don't
> > configure the whitelist properly, others for unknow reasons"
>
> As for the debug one, I ask, "Do you know how to remote debug?" about
> 5-10 times a week now. Sadly, now that it is so DARN easy to debug,
> folks just don't seem to know they CAN do it.
>
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 6:49 PM, tommy-carlos williams
> <to...@devgeeks.org>
> wrote:
> > If no one else has time to do something with this list by the time I
> > get
> free of my current stress-pile (say a couple weeks from now), I would
> love to take a crack at it. An FAQ with not just the list, but actual
> solutions and examples would be a great resource.
> >
> > Even if someone else does it, I might use it as the basis for a
> > series of blog posts or something. It’s such a good summary of
> > people’s frustrations. I would probably even have one or two to add
> > from the #phonegap IRC channel.. :/
> >
> > --
> > tommy-carlos williams
> >
> > On 14 April 2015 at 08:16:56, Josh Soref (jsoref@blackberry.com) wrote:
> >
> > So, I want someone to make this into a FAQ, somehow.
> >
> > I don't have time today, but it's a really great list.
> >
> > Bonus points for getting it Stickied at the top of StackOverflow.
> >
> > (obviously, it should include some explanation of how to correct
> > these things, and thankfully most are pretty easy to address.)
> >
> > Some are probably asking for samples (e.g. a "how to do things
> > slowly/choppily w/ left: vs. how to use CSS transitions" --
> > Raymond?)
> >
> > Julio wrote an amazing summary of Cordova Stack Overflow posts:
> >> I read most of the questions with cordova tag on stackoverflow and
> >> the questions on the google group and I see this problems.
> >>
> >> - Some people don't read the docs
> >> - Some people read the wrong docs (they use cordova 2.9.1 because
> >> it's the latest they can download, but read the edge docs and
> >> things don't work as
> >> expected)
> >> - Some people follow old tutorials instead of reading the docs and
> >> the things have changed a lot and don't work.
> >> - Some people don't need cordova but use it anyway, they just want
> >> a webview to show their website
> >> - Some people use j***** ****** (I don't want to name it either)
> >> and blame cordova for the slowness
> >> - With cordova everybody can create apps, but configuring the PATH
> >> isn't easy for most people, a lot of questions are realated to
> >> this, they didn't configure the PATH, they did it but wrong, they
> >> don't know they have to set it (see my first point)
> >> - People is still confused about the difference between phonegap,
> >> cordova and phonegap build service, I see people using phonegap CLI
> >> for local development but try to "install" the plugins putting the
> >> phonegap build plugin config line on the config.xml (again, people
> >> don't read or don't understand the docs)
> >> - People want to use eclipse (now android studio) for the
> >> development, they google and see blog post about a plugin, but that
> >> plugin is very old and uses phonegap 1.x.x (see my second point)
> >> - People is having troubles connecting with the server, some of
> >> them because use localhost as the url, others because they don't
> >> configure the whitelist properly, others for unknow reasons.
> >> - Some of them discover bugs, but instead of reporting them so it
> >> can be fixed, just ask on stackoverflow why it doesn't work.
> >> - Most people don't know how to debug, then if something doesn't
> >> work just complain.
> >> - Some people forget to link the cordova.js file, they create the
> >> project and replace the index.html with the index.html of their website.
> >> - Some people blame cordova when the problem is the webview (old
> >> android devices).
> >>
> >>
> >> About people that used cordova and are now developing in native, I
> >> bet most of them tried cordova on android 2.x.x with j***** ******
> >> and it was slow, they read the articles about facebook and linkedin
> >> dropping html5 and switching to native and did the same, and after
> >> the effort they put on learning native development they don't wan't
> >> to go back and will tell everybody cordova is bad because it was
> >> slow
> when they tried it years ago.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> ======================================================================
> ===== Raymond Camden, Developer Advocate for MobileFirst at IBM
>
> Email : raymondcamden@gmail.com
> Blog : www.raymondcamden.com
> Twitter: raymondcamden
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
--
*Frederico Galvão*
Diretor de Tecnologia
PontoGet Inovação Web
( +55(62) 8131-5720
* www.pontoget.com.br <http://www.pontoget.com/>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
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Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Frederico Galvão <fr...@pontoget.com.br>.
As someone who has given a couple of local speechs and presentations about
Cordova, I could say with some certainty that most of the time what makes
Cordova a not-so-well known tool is the misconception about what it's aimed
at doing, and incoherent expectations towards what it CAN do for the
developer.
Other than that, and all the small things that have been already mentioned
previously by everyone, I'd say that web development (the one out there,
not the one defined by ES{6,7,8} or future dream
tools/standards/frameworks) in general is still not ready to what is needed
for mobile development to be taken seriously and be able to build complex
applications successfully. Very few development teams have enough awareness
of how much more is needed on a well built application other than jQuery
and 256 plugins.
In the end, everything sums up to how well defined expectations are. And
I'm sure Cordova, along with its website and documentation, can be a lot
better at guiding developers to better expectations towards everything that
can be expected from cordova, and what can't.
I'm interested in contributing to this in whatever small way I can.
2015-04-19 21:48 GMT-03:00 Parashuram N (MS OPEN TECH) <
panarasi@microsoft.com>:
> I think FAQs, tutorials and blogs are great. I would also like to
> contribute to this. Maybe a good start would be to identify a the topics
> that require a blog post ?
> If we have a list of things to blog about, I am sure the community can
> come up with the actual articles and blog posts.
> I am sure my team would love to help with the content. Should we start
> putting together a list of topics that would need tutorials ?
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kerri Shotts [mailto:kerrishotts@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 8:57 PM
> To: dev@cordova.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>
> I had similar ideas about writing some FAQs or posts. Great minds clearly
> think alike, right? ;-) (I’m joking. I know my mind… so not great… Wait…
> that might actually be an insult to everyone else. The only way to win is
> not to play! Aaaaaaaaaah! Clearly I need to go to bed. I’ve been staring at
> my latest book’s chapter for way too long.)
>
> In fact, I’ve toyed with the idea of doing some screencasts using Cordova
> and the various tools I use with it (like gulp, browserify, and babeljs),
> and these could make some excellent topics as well. Especially debugging,
> because it’s not always enough just to say “here’s where you go to start
> debugging remotely”. Debugging is a skill (an art, really), so I could see
> a lot from that topic alone, but geared more directly at typical debugging
> issues one finds in Cordova dev. Hmm. Where to find the hours in the day?
> Or a clone… I could really use a clone…
>
>
>
>
> From: Raymond Camden <ra...@gmail.com>
> Reply: dev@cordova.apache.org <de...@cordova.apache.org>>
> Date: April 13, 2015 at 8:18:39 PM
> To: dev@cordova.apache.org <de...@cordova.apache.org>>
> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>
> Like Tommy, I may steal some of these for blog posts -
>
> "People is having troubles connecting with the server, some of them
> > because use localhost as the url, others because they don't configure
> > the whitelist properly, others for unknow reasons"
>
> As for the debug one, I ask, "Do you know how to remote debug?" about
> 5-10 times a week now. Sadly, now that it is so DARN easy to debug, folks
> just don't seem to know they CAN do it.
>
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 6:49 PM, tommy-carlos williams <to...@devgeeks.org>
> wrote:
> > If no one else has time to do something with this list by the time I get
> free of my current stress-pile (say a couple weeks from now), I would love
> to take a crack at it. An FAQ with not just the list, but actual solutions
> and examples would be a great resource.
> >
> > Even if someone else does it, I might use it as the basis for a series
> > of blog posts or something. It’s such a good summary of people’s
> > frustrations. I would probably even have one or two to add from the
> > #phonegap IRC channel.. :/
> >
> > --
> > tommy-carlos williams
> >
> > On 14 April 2015 at 08:16:56, Josh Soref (jsoref@blackberry.com) wrote:
> >
> > So, I want someone to make this into a FAQ, somehow.
> >
> > I don't have time today, but it's a really great list.
> >
> > Bonus points for getting it Stickied at the top of StackOverflow.
> >
> > (obviously, it should include some explanation of how to correct these
> > things, and thankfully most are pretty easy to address.)
> >
> > Some are probably asking for samples (e.g. a "how to do things
> > slowly/choppily w/ left: vs. how to use CSS transitions" -- Raymond?)
> >
> > Julio wrote an amazing summary of Cordova Stack Overflow posts:
> >> I read most of the questions with cordova tag on stackoverflow and
> >> the questions on the google group and I see this problems.
> >>
> >> - Some people don't read the docs
> >> - Some people read the wrong docs (they use cordova 2.9.1 because
> >> it's the latest they can download, but read the edge docs and things
> >> don't work as
> >> expected)
> >> - Some people follow old tutorials instead of reading the docs and
> >> the things have changed a lot and don't work.
> >> - Some people don't need cordova but use it anyway, they just want a
> >> webview to show their website
> >> - Some people use j***** ****** (I don't want to name it either) and
> >> blame cordova for the slowness
> >> - With cordova everybody can create apps, but configuring the PATH
> >> isn't easy for most people, a lot of questions are realated to this,
> >> they didn't configure the PATH, they did it but wrong, they don't
> >> know they have to set it (see my first point)
> >> - People is still confused about the difference between phonegap,
> >> cordova and phonegap build service, I see people using phonegap CLI
> >> for local development but try to "install" the plugins putting the
> >> phonegap build plugin config line on the config.xml (again, people
> >> don't read or don't understand the docs)
> >> - People want to use eclipse (now android studio) for the
> >> development, they google and see blog post about a plugin, but that
> >> plugin is very old and uses phonegap 1.x.x (see my second point)
> >> - People is having troubles connecting with the server, some of them
> >> because use localhost as the url, others because they don't configure
> >> the whitelist properly, others for unknow reasons.
> >> - Some of them discover bugs, but instead of reporting them so it can
> >> be fixed, just ask on stackoverflow why it doesn't work.
> >> - Most people don't know how to debug, then if something doesn't work
> >> just complain.
> >> - Some people forget to link the cordova.js file, they create the
> >> project and replace the index.html with the index.html of their website.
> >> - Some people blame cordova when the problem is the webview (old
> >> android devices).
> >>
> >>
> >> About people that used cordova and are now developing in native, I
> >> bet most of them tried cordova on android 2.x.x with j***** ******
> >> and it was slow, they read the articles about facebook and linkedin
> >> dropping html5 and switching to native and did the same, and after
> >> the effort they put on learning native development they don't wan't
> >> to go back and will tell everybody cordova is bad because it was slow
> when they tried it years ago.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> ===========================================================================
> Raymond Camden, Developer Advocate for MobileFirst at IBM
>
> Email : raymondcamden@gmail.com
> Blog : www.raymondcamden.com
> Twitter: raymondcamden
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
--
*Frederico Galvão*
Diretor de Tecnologia
PontoGet Inovação Web
( +55(62) 8131-5720
* www.pontoget.com.br <http://www.pontoget.com/>
RE: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by "Parashuram N (MS OPEN TECH)" <pa...@microsoft.com>.
I think FAQs, tutorials and blogs are great. I would also like to contribute to this. Maybe a good start would be to identify a the topics that require a blog post ?
If we have a list of things to blog about, I am sure the community can come up with the actual articles and blog posts.
I am sure my team would love to help with the content. Should we start putting together a list of topics that would need tutorials ?
-----Original Message-----
From: Kerri Shotts [mailto:kerrishotts@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 8:57 PM
To: dev@cordova.apache.org
Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
I had similar ideas about writing some FAQs or posts. Great minds clearly think alike, right? ;-) (I’m joking. I know my mind… so not great… Wait… that might actually be an insult to everyone else. The only way to win is not to play! Aaaaaaaaaah! Clearly I need to go to bed. I’ve been staring at my latest book’s chapter for way too long.)
In fact, I’ve toyed with the idea of doing some screencasts using Cordova and the various tools I use with it (like gulp, browserify, and babeljs), and these could make some excellent topics as well. Especially debugging, because it’s not always enough just to say “here’s where you go to start debugging remotely”. Debugging is a skill (an art, really), so I could see a lot from that topic alone, but geared more directly at typical debugging issues one finds in Cordova dev. Hmm. Where to find the hours in the day? Or a clone… I could really use a clone…
From: Raymond Camden <ra...@gmail.com>
Reply: dev@cordova.apache.org <de...@cordova.apache.org>>
Date: April 13, 2015 at 8:18:39 PM
To: dev@cordova.apache.org <de...@cordova.apache.org>>
Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Like Tommy, I may steal some of these for blog posts -
"People is having troubles connecting with the server, some of them
> because use localhost as the url, others because they don't configure
> the whitelist properly, others for unknow reasons"
As for the debug one, I ask, "Do you know how to remote debug?" about
5-10 times a week now. Sadly, now that it is so DARN easy to debug, folks just don't seem to know they CAN do it.
On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 6:49 PM, tommy-carlos williams <to...@devgeeks.org> wrote:
> If no one else has time to do something with this list by the time I get free of my current stress-pile (say a couple weeks from now), I would love to take a crack at it. An FAQ with not just the list, but actual solutions and examples would be a great resource.
>
> Even if someone else does it, I might use it as the basis for a series
> of blog posts or something. It’s such a good summary of people’s
> frustrations. I would probably even have one or two to add from the
> #phonegap IRC channel.. :/
>
> --
> tommy-carlos williams
>
> On 14 April 2015 at 08:16:56, Josh Soref (jsoref@blackberry.com) wrote:
>
> So, I want someone to make this into a FAQ, somehow.
>
> I don't have time today, but it's a really great list.
>
> Bonus points for getting it Stickied at the top of StackOverflow.
>
> (obviously, it should include some explanation of how to correct these
> things, and thankfully most are pretty easy to address.)
>
> Some are probably asking for samples (e.g. a "how to do things
> slowly/choppily w/ left: vs. how to use CSS transitions" -- Raymond?)
>
> Julio wrote an amazing summary of Cordova Stack Overflow posts:
>> I read most of the questions with cordova tag on stackoverflow and
>> the questions on the google group and I see this problems.
>>
>> - Some people don't read the docs
>> - Some people read the wrong docs (they use cordova 2.9.1 because
>> it's the latest they can download, but read the edge docs and things
>> don't work as
>> expected)
>> - Some people follow old tutorials instead of reading the docs and
>> the things have changed a lot and don't work.
>> - Some people don't need cordova but use it anyway, they just want a
>> webview to show their website
>> - Some people use j***** ****** (I don't want to name it either) and
>> blame cordova for the slowness
>> - With cordova everybody can create apps, but configuring the PATH
>> isn't easy for most people, a lot of questions are realated to this,
>> they didn't configure the PATH, they did it but wrong, they don't
>> know they have to set it (see my first point)
>> - People is still confused about the difference between phonegap,
>> cordova and phonegap build service, I see people using phonegap CLI
>> for local development but try to "install" the plugins putting the
>> phonegap build plugin config line on the config.xml (again, people
>> don't read or don't understand the docs)
>> - People want to use eclipse (now android studio) for the
>> development, they google and see blog post about a plugin, but that
>> plugin is very old and uses phonegap 1.x.x (see my second point)
>> - People is having troubles connecting with the server, some of them
>> because use localhost as the url, others because they don't configure
>> the whitelist properly, others for unknow reasons.
>> - Some of them discover bugs, but instead of reporting them so it can
>> be fixed, just ask on stackoverflow why it doesn't work.
>> - Most people don't know how to debug, then if something doesn't work
>> just complain.
>> - Some people forget to link the cordova.js file, they create the
>> project and replace the index.html with the index.html of their website.
>> - Some people blame cordova when the problem is the webview (old
>> android devices).
>>
>>
>> About people that used cordova and are now developing in native, I
>> bet most of them tried cordova on android 2.x.x with j***** ******
>> and it was slow, they read the articles about facebook and linkedin
>> dropping html5 and switching to native and did the same, and after
>> the effort they put on learning native development they don't wan't
>> to go back and will tell everybody cordova is bad because it was slow when they tried it years ago.
>
--
===========================================================================
Raymond Camden, Developer Advocate for MobileFirst at IBM
Email : raymondcamden@gmail.com
Blog : www.raymondcamden.com
Twitter: raymondcamden
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Kerri Shotts <ke...@gmail.com>.
I had similar ideas about writing some FAQs or posts. Great minds clearly think alike, right? ;-) (I’m joking. I know my mind… so not great… Wait… that might actually be an insult to everyone else. The only way to win is not to play! Aaaaaaaaaah! Clearly I need to go to bed. I’ve been staring at my latest book’s chapter for way too long.)
In fact, I’ve toyed with the idea of doing some screencasts using Cordova and the various tools I use with it (like gulp, browserify, and babeljs), and these could make some excellent topics as well. Especially debugging, because it’s not always enough just to say “here’s where you go to start debugging remotely”. Debugging is a skill (an art, really), so I could see a lot from that topic alone, but geared more directly at typical debugging issues one finds in Cordova dev. Hmm. Where to find the hours in the day? Or a clone… I could really use a clone…
From: Raymond Camden <ra...@gmail.com>
Reply: dev@cordova.apache.org <de...@cordova.apache.org>>
Date: April 13, 2015 at 8:18:39 PM
To: dev@cordova.apache.org <de...@cordova.apache.org>>
Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Like Tommy, I may steal some of these for blog posts -
"People is having troubles connecting with the server, some of them
> because use localhost as the url, others because they don't configure the
> whitelist properly, others for unknow reasons"
As for the debug one, I ask, "Do you know how to remote debug?" about
5-10 times a week now. Sadly, now that it is so DARN easy to debug,
folks just don't seem to know they CAN do it.
On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 6:49 PM, tommy-carlos williams
<to...@devgeeks.org> wrote:
> If no one else has time to do something with this list by the time I get free of my current stress-pile (say a couple weeks from now), I would love to take a crack at it. An FAQ with not just the list, but actual solutions and examples would be a great resource.
>
> Even if someone else does it, I might use it as the basis for a series of blog posts or something. It’s such a good summary of people’s frustrations. I would probably even have one or two to add from the #phonegap IRC channel.. :/
>
> --
> tommy-carlos williams
>
> On 14 April 2015 at 08:16:56, Josh Soref (jsoref@blackberry.com) wrote:
>
> So, I want someone to make this into a FAQ, somehow.
>
> I don't have time today, but it's a really great list.
>
> Bonus points for getting it Stickied at the top of StackOverflow.
>
> (obviously, it should include some explanation of how to correct these things,
> and thankfully most are pretty easy to address.)
>
> Some are probably asking for samples (e.g. a "how to do things slowly/choppily
> w/ left: vs. how to use CSS transitions" -- Raymond?)
>
> Julio wrote an amazing summary of Cordova Stack Overflow posts:
>> I read most of the questions with cordova tag on stackoverflow and the
>> questions on the google group and I see this problems.
>>
>> - Some people don't read the docs
>> - Some people read the wrong docs (they use cordova 2.9.1 because it's the
>> latest they can download, but read the edge docs and things don't work as
>> expected)
>> - Some people follow old tutorials instead of reading the docs and the
>> things have changed a lot and don't work.
>> - Some people don't need cordova but use it anyway, they just want a
>> webview to show their website
>> - Some people use j***** ****** (I don't want to name it either) and blame
>> cordova for the slowness
>> - With cordova everybody can create apps, but configuring the PATH isn't
>> easy for most people, a lot of questions are realated to this, they didn't
>> configure the PATH, they did it but wrong, they don't know they have to set
>> it (see my first point)
>> - People is still confused about the difference between phonegap, cordova
>> and phonegap build service, I see people using phonegap CLI for local
>> development but try to "install" the plugins putting the phonegap build
>> plugin config line on the config.xml (again, people don't read or don't
>> understand the docs)
>> - People want to use eclipse (now android studio) for the development, they
>> google and see blog post about a plugin, but that plugin is very old and
>> uses phonegap 1.x.x (see my second point)
>> - People is having troubles connecting with the server, some of them
>> because use localhost as the url, others because they don't configure the
>> whitelist properly, others for unknow reasons.
>> - Some of them discover bugs, but instead of reporting them so it can be
>> fixed, just ask on stackoverflow why it doesn't work.
>> - Most people don't know how to debug, then if something doesn't work just
>> complain.
>> - Some people forget to link the cordova.js file, they create the project
>> and replace the index.html with the index.html of their website.
>> - Some people blame cordova when the problem is the webview (old android
>> devices).
>>
>>
>> About people that used cordova and are now developing in native, I bet most
>> of them tried cordova on android 2.x.x with j***** ****** and it was slow,
>> they read the articles about facebook and linkedin dropping html5 and
>> switching to native and did the same, and after the effort they put on
>> learning native development they don't wan't to go back and will tell
>> everybody cordova is bad because it was slow when they tried it years ago.
>
--
===========================================================================
Raymond Camden, Developer Advocate for MobileFirst at IBM
Email : raymondcamden@gmail.com
Blog : www.raymondcamden.com
Twitter: raymondcamden
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Raymond Camden <ra...@gmail.com>.
Like Tommy, I may steal some of these for blog posts -
"People is having troubles connecting with the server, some of them
> because use localhost as the url, others because they don't configure the
> whitelist properly, others for unknow reasons"
As for the debug one, I ask, "Do you know how to remote debug?" about
5-10 times a week now. Sadly, now that it is so DARN easy to debug,
folks just don't seem to know they CAN do it.
On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 6:49 PM, tommy-carlos williams
<to...@devgeeks.org> wrote:
> If no one else has time to do something with this list by the time I get free of my current stress-pile (say a couple weeks from now), I would love to take a crack at it. An FAQ with not just the list, but actual solutions and examples would be a great resource.
>
> Even if someone else does it, I might use it as the basis for a series of blog posts or something. It’s such a good summary of people’s frustrations. I would probably even have one or two to add from the #phonegap IRC channel.. :/
>
> --
> tommy-carlos williams
>
> On 14 April 2015 at 08:16:56, Josh Soref (jsoref@blackberry.com) wrote:
>
> So, I want someone to make this into a FAQ, somehow.
>
> I don't have time today, but it's a really great list.
>
> Bonus points for getting it Stickied at the top of StackOverflow.
>
> (obviously, it should include some explanation of how to correct these things,
> and thankfully most are pretty easy to address.)
>
> Some are probably asking for samples (e.g. a "how to do things slowly/choppily
> w/ left: vs. how to use CSS transitions" -- Raymond?)
>
> Julio wrote an amazing summary of Cordova Stack Overflow posts:
>> I read most of the questions with cordova tag on stackoverflow and the
>> questions on the google group and I see this problems.
>>
>> - Some people don't read the docs
>> - Some people read the wrong docs (they use cordova 2.9.1 because it's the
>> latest they can download, but read the edge docs and things don't work as
>> expected)
>> - Some people follow old tutorials instead of reading the docs and the
>> things have changed a lot and don't work.
>> - Some people don't need cordova but use it anyway, they just want a
>> webview to show their website
>> - Some people use j***** ****** (I don't want to name it either) and blame
>> cordova for the slowness
>> - With cordova everybody can create apps, but configuring the PATH isn't
>> easy for most people, a lot of questions are realated to this, they didn't
>> configure the PATH, they did it but wrong, they don't know they have to set
>> it (see my first point)
>> - People is still confused about the difference between phonegap, cordova
>> and phonegap build service, I see people using phonegap CLI for local
>> development but try to "install" the plugins putting the phonegap build
>> plugin config line on the config.xml (again, people don't read or don't
>> understand the docs)
>> - People want to use eclipse (now android studio) for the development, they
>> google and see blog post about a plugin, but that plugin is very old and
>> uses phonegap 1.x.x (see my second point)
>> - People is having troubles connecting with the server, some of them
>> because use localhost as the url, others because they don't configure the
>> whitelist properly, others for unknow reasons.
>> - Some of them discover bugs, but instead of reporting them so it can be
>> fixed, just ask on stackoverflow why it doesn't work.
>> - Most people don't know how to debug, then if something doesn't work just
>> complain.
>> - Some people forget to link the cordova.js file, they create the project
>> and replace the index.html with the index.html of their website.
>> - Some people blame cordova when the problem is the webview (old android
>> devices).
>>
>>
>> About people that used cordova and are now developing in native, I bet most
>> of them tried cordova on android 2.x.x with j***** ****** and it was slow,
>> they read the articles about facebook and linkedin dropping html5 and
>> switching to native and did the same, and after the effort they put on
>> learning native development they don't wan't to go back and will tell
>> everybody cordova is bad because it was slow when they tried it years ago.
>
--
===========================================================================
Raymond Camden, Developer Advocate for MobileFirst at IBM
Email : raymondcamden@gmail.com
Blog : www.raymondcamden.com
Twitter: raymondcamden
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
RE: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by tommy-carlos williams <to...@devgeeks.org>.
If no one else has time to do something with this list by the time I get free of my current stress-pile (say a couple weeks from now), I would love to take a crack at it. An FAQ with not just the list, but actual solutions and examples would be a great resource.
Even if someone else does it, I might use it as the basis for a series of blog posts or something. It’s such a good summary of people’s frustrations. I would probably even have one or two to add from the #phonegap IRC channel.. :/
--
tommy-carlos williams
On 14 April 2015 at 08:16:56, Josh Soref (jsoref@blackberry.com) wrote:
So, I want someone to make this into a FAQ, somehow.
I don't have time today, but it's a really great list.
Bonus points for getting it Stickied at the top of StackOverflow.
(obviously, it should include some explanation of how to correct these things,
and thankfully most are pretty easy to address.)
Some are probably asking for samples (e.g. a "how to do things slowly/choppily
w/ left: vs. how to use CSS transitions" -- Raymond?)
Julio wrote an amazing summary of Cordova Stack Overflow posts:
> I read most of the questions with cordova tag on stackoverflow and the
> questions on the google group and I see this problems.
>
> - Some people don't read the docs
> - Some people read the wrong docs (they use cordova 2.9.1 because it's the
> latest they can download, but read the edge docs and things don't work as
> expected)
> - Some people follow old tutorials instead of reading the docs and the
> things have changed a lot and don't work.
> - Some people don't need cordova but use it anyway, they just want a
> webview to show their website
> - Some people use j***** ****** (I don't want to name it either) and blame
> cordova for the slowness
> - With cordova everybody can create apps, but configuring the PATH isn't
> easy for most people, a lot of questions are realated to this, they didn't
> configure the PATH, they did it but wrong, they don't know they have to set
> it (see my first point)
> - People is still confused about the difference between phonegap, cordova
> and phonegap build service, I see people using phonegap CLI for local
> development but try to "install" the plugins putting the phonegap build
> plugin config line on the config.xml (again, people don't read or don't
> understand the docs)
> - People want to use eclipse (now android studio) for the development, they
> google and see blog post about a plugin, but that plugin is very old and
> uses phonegap 1.x.x (see my second point)
> - People is having troubles connecting with the server, some of them
> because use localhost as the url, others because they don't configure the
> whitelist properly, others for unknow reasons.
> - Some of them discover bugs, but instead of reporting them so it can be
> fixed, just ask on stackoverflow why it doesn't work.
> - Most people don't know how to debug, then if something doesn't work just
> complain.
> - Some people forget to link the cordova.js file, they create the project
> and replace the index.html with the index.html of their website.
> - Some people blame cordova when the problem is the webview (old android
> devices).
>
>
> About people that used cordova and are now developing in native, I bet most
> of them tried cordova on android 2.x.x with j***** ****** and it was slow,
> they read the articles about facebook and linkedin dropping html5 and
> switching to native and did the same, and after the effort they put on
> learning native development they don't wan't to go back and will tell
> everybody cordova is bad because it was slow when they tried it years ago.
RE: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Josh Soref <js...@blackberry.com>.
So, I want someone to make this into a FAQ, somehow.
I don't have time today, but it's a really great list.
Bonus points for getting it Stickied at the top of StackOverflow.
(obviously, it should include some explanation of how to correct these things,
and thankfully most are pretty easy to address.)
Some are probably asking for samples (e.g. a "how to do things slowly/choppily
w/ left: vs. how to use CSS transitions" -- Raymond?)
Julio wrote an amazing summary of Cordova Stack Overflow posts:
> I read most of the questions with cordova tag on stackoverflow and the
> questions on the google group and I see this problems.
>
> - Some people don't read the docs
> - Some people read the wrong docs (they use cordova 2.9.1 because it's the
> latest they can download, but read the edge docs and things don't work as
> expected)
> - Some people follow old tutorials instead of reading the docs and the
> things have changed a lot and don't work.
> - Some people don't need cordova but use it anyway, they just want a
> webview to show their website
> - Some people use j***** ****** (I don't want to name it either) and blame
> cordova for the slowness
> - With cordova everybody can create apps, but configuring the PATH isn't
> easy for most people, a lot of questions are realated to this, they didn't
> configure the PATH, they did it but wrong, they don't know they have to set
> it (see my first point)
> - People is still confused about the difference between phonegap, cordova
> and phonegap build service, I see people using phonegap CLI for local
> development but try to "install" the plugins putting the phonegap build
> plugin config line on the config.xml (again, people don't read or don't
> understand the docs)
> - People want to use eclipse (now android studio) for the development, they
> google and see blog post about a plugin, but that plugin is very old and
> uses phonegap 1.x.x (see my second point)
> - People is having troubles connecting with the server, some of them
> because use localhost as the url, others because they don't configure the
> whitelist properly, others for unknow reasons.
> - Some of them discover bugs, but instead of reporting them so it can be
> fixed, just ask on stackoverflow why it doesn't work.
> - Most people don't know how to debug, then if something doesn't work just
> complain.
> - Some people forget to link the cordova.js file, they create the project
> and replace the index.html with the index.html of their website.
> - Some people blame cordova when the problem is the webview (old android
> devices).
>
>
> About people that used cordova and are now developing in native, I bet most
> of them tried cordova on android 2.x.x with j***** ****** and it was slow,
> they read the articles about facebook and linkedin dropping html5 and
> switching to native and did the same, and after the effort they put on
> learning native development they don't wan't to go back and will tell
> everybody cordova is bad because it was slow when they tried it years ago.
RE: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Josh Soref <js...@blackberry.com>.
Raymond wrote:
> Would it make sense - on the doc home page (Guides) to add a sentence
> at top, below the title "Guides", that says:
We should do something.
> "You are reading the documentation for Cordova X. You can switch
> versions by using the drop down at the upper right."
I don't think this is the right something.
It needs to say something like "This is documentation for Cordova X, which was
obsoleted on {DATE}, the current version is Y, which was released on {DATE}
please see {reference} for more current documentation."
Or something scarier.
W3C has a similar problem -- it's hard to write decent "This is obsolete" and
"These are not the droids you're looking for" annotations.
> > - Some people use j***** ****** (I don't want to name it either) and
> blame
> > cordova for the slowness
>
> Oh come on now - jQuery Mobile has come a long way. If it isn't fair
> to blame Cordova for people doing bad things w/ their web assets then
> it isn't fair to blame JQM for being slow when it first came out. :)
Well, actually.
He's blaming it the same way he's blaming us.
JQM didn't knock on the door of those developers and say "hey, you're using an
ancient version of our product, and you're doing it badly; please upgrade, and
please stop doing {list of stupid things -- ideally tailored}".
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Raymond Camden <ra...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 2:57 AM, julio cesar sanchez
<jc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> - Some people read the wrong docs (they use cordova 2.9.1 because it's the
> latest they can download, but read the edge docs and things don't work as
> expected)
Would it make sense - on the doc home page (Guides) to add a sentence
at top, below the title "Guides", that says:
"You are reading the documentation for Cordova X. You can switch
versions by using the drop down at the upper right."
Just to make it clear that option exists?
> - Some people use j***** ****** (I don't want to name it either) and blame
> cordova for the slowness
Oh come on now - jQuery Mobile has come a long way. If it isn't fair
to blame Cordova for people doing bad things w/ their web assets then
it isn't fair to blame JQM for being slow when it first came out. :)
--
===========================================================================
Raymond Camden, Developer Advocate for MobileFirst at IBM
Email : raymondcamden@gmail.com
Blog : www.raymondcamden.com
Twitter: raymondcamden
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by julio cesar sanchez <jc...@gmail.com>.
I read most of the questions with cordova tag on stackoverflow and the
questions on the google group and I see this problems.
- Some people don't read the docs
- Some people read the wrong docs (they use cordova 2.9.1 because it's the
latest they can download, but read the edge docs and things don't work as
expected)
- Some people follow old tutorials instead of reading the docs and the
things have changed a lot and don't work.
- Some people don't need cordova but use it anyway, they just want a
webview to show their website
- Some people use j***** ****** (I don't want to name it either) and blame
cordova for the slowness
- With cordova everybody can create apps, but configuring the PATH isn't
easy for most people, a lot of questions are realated to this, they didn't
configure the PATH, they did it but wrong, they don't know they have to set
it (see my first point)
- People is still confused about the difference between phonegap, cordova
and phonegap build service, I see people using phonegap CLI for local
development but try to "install" the plugins putting the phonegap build
plugin config line on the config.xml (again, people don't read or don't
understand the docs)
- People want to use eclipse (now android studio) for the development, they
google and see blog post about a plugin, but that plugin is very old and
uses phonegap 1.x.x (see my second point)
- People is having troubles connecting with the server, some of them
because use localhost as the url, others because they don't configure the
whitelist properly, others for unknow reasons.
- Some of them discover bugs, but instead of reporting them so it can be
fixed, just ask on stackoverflow why it doesn't work.
- Most people don't know how to debug, then if something doesn't work just
complain.
- Some people forget to link the cordova.js file, they create the project
and replace the index.html with the index.html of their website.
- Some people blame cordova when the problem is the webview (old android
devices).
About people that used cordova and are now developing in native, I bet most
of them tried cordova on android 2.x.x with j***** ****** and it was slow,
they read the articles about facebook and linkedin dropping html5 and
switching to native and did the same, and after the effort they put on
learning native development they don't wan't to go back and will tell
everybody cordova is bad because it was slow when they tried it years ago.
2015-04-09 0:02 GMT+02:00 Dmitry Blotsky <db...@microsoft.com>:
> Here is a short thing I found recently on this topic:
> http://coenraets.org/keypoint/phonegap-performance/#0
>
> Kindly,
> - Dmitry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tyler Freeman [mailto:Tyler@DrumPants.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2015 1:12 PM
> To: dev@cordova.apache.org; Michael Brooks
> Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>
> I think what colors people's perception the most is the graphics and
> interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few possible reasons:
>
> * They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3 years ago. Even
> though it's improved so much since then, those first apps still hang in
> people's minds.
>
> * Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth, buttery
> animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern WebKit views, but it's
> hard and takes a lot of work.
>
> * For instance, I came across an article once that recommended using CSS
> transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed my whole way of
> thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because of it. I think
> it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like that for making
> top-notch apps.
>
> * Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port their iOS-style
> design straight to Android without considering that Android users expect a
> completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do about this.
>
> Tyler
>
> On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <mi...@michaelbrooks.ca>
> wrote:
> >This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the score is low
> >because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and the default
> >Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional - Git Bash,
> >Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven development, and no
> >full blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving this and
> >as Visual Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
> >survey results improve.
> >
> >On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <D....@cadenas.de>
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Absolutely right :-)
> >>
> >> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the developers
> >using
> >> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing nothing about
> >the
> >> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the JS->Native->JS
> >bridge.
> >> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos communitcation
> >with
> >> plugins.
> >>
> >> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything special is
> >> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
> >>
> >> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs which are
> >not
> >> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of that :-)
> >>
> >> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power of the
> >cordova
> >> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
> >>
> >> Daniel Toplak
> >>
> >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> >> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> >> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
> >>
> >> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development, because
> >everyone can
> >> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova applications is
> >> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova application from
> >> another company, you're probably going to end up re-writing it and if
> >> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it natively because
> >that's
> >> what you're more comfortable with.
> >>
> >> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
> >>
> >> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time soon, and both
> >those
> >> technologies share the same property that anyone can create a shitty
> >> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for a reason,
> >and at
> >> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult because I think
> >Drupal
> >> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I don't think we
> >should
> >> care what developers say in a survey, since most developers are
> >terrible
> >> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're releasing isn't
> >terrible.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
> ><le...@intel.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey (
> >> > http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
> >> >
> >> > Most Dreaded technologies:
> >> > Salesforce 73.2%
> >> > Visual Basic 72.0%
> >> > Wordpress 68.2%
> >> > Matlab 65.6%
> >> > Sharepoint 62.8%
> >> > LAMP 62.2%
> >> > Perl 59.2%
> >> > Cordova 58.8% **************
> >> > Coffeescript 54.7%
> >> > Other 57.3%
> >> > % of devs who are developing with the language or tech but have not
> >> > expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> >> >
> >> > Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some possible answers.
> >> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but rather looking
> >for
> >> > feedback from those who have heard developers express frustration
> >with
> >> Cordova:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > * There is no problem - unclear question led to the answer
> >> >
> >> > * The problem is really about creating native apps in
> >JavaScript +
> >> > HTML5
> >> >
> >> > * Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability |
> >usability |
> >> > reliability)
> >> >
> >> > o Too hard to set up development environment
> >> >
> >> > o The command CLI is too complicated
> >> >
> >> > o Not enough learning material (documentation, articles, books)
> >> >
> >> > o Too many bugs
> >> >
> >> > o Changes too frequently
> >> >
> >> > Leo
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
>
> Tyler Freeman
> CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
>
> Sent from mobile
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
RE: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Dmitry Blotsky <db...@microsoft.com>.
Here is a short thing I found recently on this topic: http://coenraets.org/keypoint/phonegap-performance/#0
Kindly,
- Dmitry
-----Original Message-----
From: Tyler Freeman [mailto:Tyler@DrumPants.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2015 1:12 PM
To: dev@cordova.apache.org; Michael Brooks
Subject: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
I think what colors people's perception the most is the graphics and interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few possible reasons:
* They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3 years ago. Even though it's improved so much since then, those first apps still hang in people's minds.
* Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth, buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern WebKit views, but it's hard and takes a lot of work.
* For instance, I came across an article once that recommended using CSS transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed my whole way of thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because of it. I think it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like that for making top-notch apps.
* Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port their iOS-style design straight to Android without considering that Android users expect a completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do about this.
Tyler
On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <mi...@michaelbrooks.ca> wrote:
>This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the score is low
>because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and the default
>Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional - Git Bash,
>Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven development, and no
>full blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving this and
>as Visual Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those
>survey results improve.
>
>On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <D....@cadenas.de>
>wrote:
>
>> Absolutely right :-)
>>
>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the developers
>using
>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing nothing about
>the
>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the JS->Native->JS
>bridge.
>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos communitcation
>with
>> plugins.
>>
>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything special is
>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
>>
>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs which are
>not
>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of that :-)
>>
>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power of the
>cordova
>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
>>
>> Daniel Toplak
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>
>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development, because
>everyone can
>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova applications is
>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova application from
>> another company, you're probably going to end up re-writing it and if
>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it natively because
>that's
>> what you're more comfortable with.
>>
>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>>
>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time soon, and both
>those
>> technologies share the same property that anyone can create a shitty
>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for a reason,
>and at
>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult because I think
>Drupal
>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I don't think we
>should
>> care what developers say in a survey, since most developers are
>terrible
>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're releasing isn't
>terrible.
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
><le...@intel.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey (
>> > http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
>> >
>> > Most Dreaded technologies:
>> > Salesforce 73.2%
>> > Visual Basic 72.0%
>> > Wordpress 68.2%
>> > Matlab 65.6%
>> > Sharepoint 62.8%
>> > LAMP 62.2%
>> > Perl 59.2%
>> > Cordova 58.8% **************
>> > Coffeescript 54.7%
>> > Other 57.3%
>> > % of devs who are developing with the language or tech but have not
>> > expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>> >
>> > Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some possible answers.
>> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but rather looking
>for
>> > feedback from those who have heard developers express frustration
>with
>> Cordova:
>> >
>> >
>> > * There is no problem - unclear question led to the answer
>> >
>> > * The problem is really about creating native apps in
>JavaScript +
>> > HTML5
>> >
>> > * Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability |
>usability |
>> > reliability)
>> >
>> > o Too hard to set up development environment
>> >
>> > o The command CLI is too complicated
>> >
>> > o Not enough learning material (documentation, articles, books)
>> >
>> > o Too many bugs
>> >
>> > o Changes too frequently
>> >
>> > Leo
>> >
>> >
>>
Tyler Freeman
CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
Sent from mobile
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Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Tyler Freeman <Ty...@DrumPants.com>.
I think what colors people's perception the most is the graphics and interaction performance of JS vs Native. Here's a few possible reasons:
* They are basing their bias off Phonegap apps they saw 3 years ago. Even though it's improved so much since then, those first apps still hang in people's minds.
* Developers are not trying hard enough for that smooth, buttery animations. It is possible to get 60fps on modern WebKit views, but it's hard and takes a lot of work.
* For instance, I came across an article once that recommended using CSS transforms instead of properties like "left". That changed my whole way of thinking, and my app looks and reacts so much better because of it. I think it would be good for the Cordova docs to lay out tips like that for making top-notch apps.
* Non-native feel and interactions. Some apps just port their iOS-style design straight to Android without considering that Android users expect a completely different paradigm. Not sure there's much to do about this.
Tyler
On April 8, 2015 9:42:00 AM PDT, Michael Brooks <mi...@michaelbrooks.ca> wrote:
>This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the score is low
>because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and the default
>Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional - Git Bash,
>Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven development, and no
>full
>blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving this and as
>Visual
>Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those survey results
>improve.
>
>On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <D....@cadenas.de>
>wrote:
>
>> Absolutely right :-)
>>
>> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the developers
>using
>> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing nothing about
>the
>> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the JS->Native->JS
>bridge.
>> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos communitcation
>with
>> plugins.
>>
>> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything special is
>> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
>>
>> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs which are
>not
>> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of that :-)
>>
>> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power of the
>cordova
>> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
>>
>> Daniel Toplak
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
>> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
>> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>>
>> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development, because
>everyone can
>> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova applications is
>> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova application from
>> another company, you're probably going to end up re-writing it and if
>> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it natively because
>that's
>> what you're more comfortable with.
>>
>> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>>
>> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time soon, and both
>those
>> technologies share the same property that anyone can create a shitty
>> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for a reason,
>and at
>> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult because I think
>Drupal
>> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I don't think we
>should
>> care what developers say in a survey, since most developers are
>terrible
>> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're releasing isn't
>terrible.
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo
><le...@intel.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey (
>> > http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
>> >
>> > Most Dreaded technologies:
>> > Salesforce 73.2%
>> > Visual Basic 72.0%
>> > Wordpress 68.2%
>> > Matlab 65.6%
>> > Sharepoint 62.8%
>> > LAMP 62.2%
>> > Perl 59.2%
>> > Cordova 58.8% **************
>> > Coffeescript 54.7%
>> > Other 57.3%
>> > % of devs who are developing with the language or tech but have not
>> > expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>> >
>> > Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some possible answers.
>> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but rather looking
>for
>> > feedback from those who have heard developers express frustration
>with
>> Cordova:
>> >
>> >
>> > * There is no problem - unclear question led to the answer
>> >
>> > * The problem is really about creating native apps in
>JavaScript +
>> > HTML5
>> >
>> > * Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability |
>usability |
>> > reliability)
>> >
>> > o Too hard to set up development environment
>> >
>> > o The command CLI is too complicated
>> >
>> > o Not enough learning material (documentation, articles, books)
>> >
>> > o Too many bugs
>> >
>> > o Changes too frequently
>> >
>> > Leo
>> >
>> >
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Tyler Freeman
CTO, DrumPants, Inc.
Sent from mobile
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Michael Brooks <mi...@michaelbrooks.ca>.
This is a really interesting survey. My take is that the score is low
because over 50% of the participants are Windows users and the default
Cordova experience on Windows is extremely unconventional - Git Bash,
Node.js Command Prompt, terminal command driven development, and no full
blown IDE. The Microsoft team is dramatically improving this and as Visual
Studio integration becomes more well known, I hope those survey results
improve.
On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Toplak Daniel <D....@cadenas.de> wrote:
> Absolutely right :-)
>
> Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the developers using
> cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing nothing about the
> plugin system under the hood, or anything about the JS->Native->JS bridge.
> They even don't know anything about the asynchronos communitcation with
> plugins.
>
> In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything special is
> needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
>
> The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs which are not
> the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of that :-)
>
> My point of view is, that they don't see the real power of the cordova
> framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
>
> Daniel Toplak
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
> An: dev@cordova.apache.org
> Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
>
> Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development, because everyone can
> create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova applications is
> absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova application from
> another company, you're probably going to end up re-writing it and if
> you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it natively because that's
> what you're more comfortable with.
>
> And I'm perfectly OK with that.
>
> Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time soon, and both those
> technologies share the same property that anyone can create a shitty
> website. We've been called the Drupal of development for a reason, and at
> the time we were called that, I took it as an insult because I think Drupal
> is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I don't think we should
> care what developers say in a survey, since most developers are terrible
> anyway. We should just make sure that what we're releasing isn't terrible.
>
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo <le...@intel.com>
> wrote:
>
> > The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey (
> > http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
> >
> > Most Dreaded technologies:
> > Salesforce 73.2%
> > Visual Basic 72.0%
> > Wordpress 68.2%
> > Matlab 65.6%
> > Sharepoint 62.8%
> > LAMP 62.2%
> > Perl 59.2%
> > Cordova 58.8% **************
> > Coffeescript 54.7%
> > Other 57.3%
> > % of devs who are developing with the language or tech but have not
> > expressed interest in continuing to do so.
> >
> > Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some possible answers.
> > I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but rather looking for
> > feedback from those who have heard developers express frustration with
> Cordova:
> >
> >
> > * There is no problem - unclear question led to the answer
> >
> > * The problem is really about creating native apps in JavaScript +
> > HTML5
> >
> > * Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability | usability |
> > reliability)
> >
> > o Too hard to set up development environment
> >
> > o The command CLI is too complicated
> >
> > o Not enough learning material (documentation, articles, books)
> >
> > o Too many bugs
> >
> > o Changes too frequently
> >
> > Leo
> >
> >
>
AW: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Toplak Daniel <D....@cadenas.de>.
Absolutely right :-)
Cordova is too easy in some situations and most of the developers using cordova (not the cordova developers itself) are knowing nothing about the plugin system under the hood, or anything about the JS->Native->JS bridge.
They even don't know anything about the asynchronos communitcation with plugins.
In most situations this is absolutely ok, but if anything special is needed or something goes wrong, then they have a problem.
The other thing is that there are some JS frameworks/libs which are not the best for mobile devices. No I don't name anyone of that :-)
My point of view is, that they don't see the real power of the cordova framework and create sloppy/buggy UI's.
Daniel Toplak
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Joe Bowser [mailto:bowserj@gmail.com]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. April 2015 17:56
An: dev@cordova.apache.org
Betreff: Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development, because everyone can create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova applications is absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova application from another company, you're probably going to end up re-writing it and if you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it natively because that's what you're more comfortable with.
And I'm perfectly OK with that.
Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time soon, and both those technologies share the same property that anyone can create a shitty website. We've been called the Drupal of development for a reason, and at the time we were called that, I took it as an insult because I think Drupal is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I don't think we should care what developers say in a survey, since most developers are terrible anyway. We should just make sure that what we're releasing isn't terrible.
On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo <le...@intel.com>
wrote:
> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey (
> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
>
> Most Dreaded technologies:
> Salesforce 73.2%
> Visual Basic 72.0%
> Wordpress 68.2%
> Matlab 65.6%
> Sharepoint 62.8%
> LAMP 62.2%
> Perl 59.2%
> Cordova 58.8% **************
> Coffeescript 54.7%
> Other 57.3%
> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech but have not
> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>
> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some possible answers.
> I'm not suggesting that any of these are true, but rather looking for
> feedback from those who have heard developers express frustration with Cordova:
>
>
> * There is no problem - unclear question led to the answer
>
> * The problem is really about creating native apps in JavaScript +
> HTML5
>
> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability | usability |
> reliability)
>
> o Too hard to set up development environment
>
> o The command CLI is too complicated
>
> o Not enough learning material (documentation, articles, books)
>
> o Too many bugs
>
> o Changes too frequently
>
> Leo
>
>
Re: Does Cordova have a problem making developers happy?
Posted by Joe Bowser <bo...@gmail.com>.
Cordova is the most hated form of Mobile Development, because everyone can
create a Cordova app, and the quality of most Cordova applications is
absolutely terrible. If you're inheriting a Cordova application from
another company, you're probably going to end up re-writing it and if
you're an iOS or Android shop, re-implementing it natively because that's
what you're more comfortable with.
And I'm perfectly OK with that.
Wordpress and LAMP stacks aren't going away any time soon, and both those
technologies share the same property that anyone can create a shitty
website. We've been called the Drupal of development for a reason, and at
the time we were called that, I took it as an insult because I think Drupal
is shitty (I once inherited a bad Drupal project). I don't think we should
care what developers say in a survey, since most developers are terrible
anyway. We should just make sure that what we're releasing isn't terrible.
On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:03 AM Treggiari, Leo <le...@intel.com>
wrote:
> The data below is from a StackOverflow Developer Survey (
> http://stackoverflow.com/research/developer-survey-2015).
>
> Most Dreaded technologies:
> Salesforce 73.2%
> Visual Basic 72.0%
> Wordpress 68.2%
> Matlab 65.6%
> Sharepoint 62.8%
> LAMP 62.2%
> Perl 59.2%
> Cordova 58.8% **************
> Coffeescript 54.7%
> Other 57.3%
> % of devs who are developing with the language or tech but have not
> expressed interest in continuing to do so.
>
> Any ideas on what the problem is? Here are some possible answers. I'm
> not suggesting that any of these are true, but rather looking for feedback
> from those who have heard developers express frustration with Cordova:
>
>
> * There is no problem - unclear question led to the answer
>
> * The problem is really about creating native apps in JavaScript +
> HTML5
>
> * Cordova CLI has a quality problem (learnability | usability |
> reliability)
>
> o Too hard to set up development environment
>
> o The command CLI is too complicated
>
> o Not enough learning material (documentation, articles, books)
>
> o Too many bugs
>
> o Changes too frequently
>
> Leo
>
>