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Posted to dev@tapestry.apache.org by Geoff Longman <gl...@gmail.com> on 2005/07/13 20:09:59 UTC
Re: Future of Tapestry in questionable
This one is floating around on the user list.
I was wondering when it would come up.
I have to admit I was a bit dismayed by Howard's blog entries lately.
Almost every second of my free time in the last 4 years has been
devoted to Spindle so when the driver of Tapestry starts musing about
the next framework to build I did do a double take. I didn't raise an
issue about it but since somebody now has...
Howard, where are you going with Tapestry?
Geoff
On 7/13/05, famanfo@tydex.com <fa...@tydex.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Recent views expressed by Howard on his blog and discussions on the net
> makes me question the future of Tapestry. He is sounding more and more pro
> Ruby on Rails and a bit anti Java. So the question is would Tapestry end up
> along the way like one of those abandoned OS projects with no development
> activity whatsover? This is something I think worth thinking about by we
> Tapestry users. To be honest, I'm taking a serious look at Wicket now.
> What do you think?
>
> Francis
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
--
The Spindle guy. http://spindle.sf.net
Get help with Spindle:
http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/spindle-user
Announcement Feed:
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Re: Future of Tapestry in questionable
Posted by Vjeran Marcinko <vj...@email.t-com.hr>.
Geoff,
I'm Intellij user and I've never even seen Spindle, but I heard a lot of
praises about it, and that it is big achievement. I always thought of you as
second most "involved" guy in this project. Not by framework features (like
as I know how much all of you contributed individually), but by spent time
on it. Of course, maybe I'm wrong, but I believe I'm not that far from
truth.
Moreover, things you've just described about it below adds to my point. You
reacted nervously because you have spent *enormous* amount of time on it. In
fact, I read Howard's blog when it came out, and somehow, I didn't even have
slightest impression that Howard is preparing to leave Tapestry and Java. He
sounded to me only envious about some things that appeared recently in web
space. Absence of fanaticism for Tapestry is not only good thing with
Howard, but I would say even suprising.
Cheers,
Vjeran
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Longman" <gl...@gmail.com>
To: "Tapestry development" <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: Future of Tapestry in questionable
Three points to clarify my reaction. But before I do that I want to
say that Howard is a cool dude and has calmed my nerves already so
this is the last I'll say on this topic.
1) The blog post contains two comments by Howard that raised the hair
on the back of my neck: "If I start fresh, it won't be in Java" and
".Net never even crossed my mind (though if someone has deep enough
pockets, I could be convinced). Nope; I was thinking Ruby ... but so
far, all I have is the name: Rapture."
2) Your statement "Some users have invested a lot of time to learn
Tapestry, same as you invested a lot of yourself in Spindle." is
interesting. Do you have any idea what the scope and size of the
Spindle project is? I think the investment of learning to use Tapestry
+ learning how Tapestry works internally in minute detail + learning
how to program Eclipse plugins is substantial and a valid basis for my
concern.
3) Your statement " And I certainly don't believe anyone invested more time
(and money) in Tapestry than Howard." is also interesting. I ask the
same question, do you have any idea what the scope and size of the
Spindle project is? I think I run *at least* a close second to Howard
in this regard. Spindle is a SF project but it's nothing without
Tapestry and I do consider it a contribution to the Tapestry project.
The reason it is not a integrated (ie. hosted at Jakarta) part of the
project is that I'm a firm believer that the while the Apache license
is the perfect license for frameworks, it's not the right way to go
for Tools. Spindle is MPL and would be GPL except for the
incompatibility between it and Elcipse licensing.
And that's all I have to say about that.
Geoff
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Re: Future of Tapestry in questionable
Posted by Geoff Longman <gl...@gmail.com>.
Three points to clarify my reaction. But before I do that I want to
say that Howard is a cool dude and has calmed my nerves already so
this is the last I'll say on this topic.
1) The blog post contains two comments by Howard that raised the hair
on the back of my neck: "If I start fresh, it won't be in Java" and
".Net never even crossed my mind (though if someone has deep enough
pockets, I could be convinced). Nope; I was thinking Ruby ... but so
far, all I have is the name: Rapture."
2) Your statement "Some users have invested a lot of time to learn
Tapestry, same as you invested a lot of yourself in Spindle." is
interesting. Do you have any idea what the scope and size of the
Spindle project is? I think the investment of learning to use Tapestry
+ learning how Tapestry works internally in minute detail + learning
how to program Eclipse plugins is substantial and a valid basis for my
concern.
3) Your statement " And I certainly don't believe anyone invested more time
(and money) in Tapestry than Howard." is also interesting. I ask the
same question, do you have any idea what the scope and size of the
Spindle project is? I think I run *at least* a close second to Howard
in this regard. Spindle is a SF project but it's nothing without
Tapestry and I do consider it a contribution to the Tapestry project.
The reason it is not a integrated (ie. hosted at Jakarta) part of the
project is that I'm a firm believer that the while the Apache license
is the perfect license for frameworks, it's not the right way to go
for Tools. Spindle is MPL and would be GPL except for the
incompatibility between it and Elcipse licensing.
And that's all I have to say about that.
Geoff
On 7/14/05, Vjeran Marcinko <vj...@email.t-com.hr> wrote:
> Oh come on Geoff, this isn't fair.
> I personally admire Howard for talking about some advantages of other web
> technologies out there, thus learning how to improve Tapestry in similar
> ways.
> I think that general problem is that people who invested too much time into
> something lose ability to talk objectively about it. Some users have
> invested a lot of time to learn Tapestry, same as you invested a lot of
> yourself in Spindle. And I certainly don't believe anyone invested more time
> (and money) in Tapestry than Howard. And having in mind how competitive this
> technology is (JSF, Wicket, RoR...), and how it's easier for some of those
> frameworks to make some things better just because they are newer, imagine
> how it must be hard for Howard to watch them having *some parts* better
> done. Such people usually turn fanatic, thus quite unpleasant to conversate
> with, because they defend their child project with all kinds of false
> arguments. And if some team mate start admitting some disadvantages, they
> accuse him of not being "true believer", being like "damaging" to project.
> Because real leader should be fanatic, with harsh hand, not letting
> followers wonder of his capability to bring them to final victory.
> Pro-republican thinking ;)
>
> Howard isn't like that.
>
> -Vjeran
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Geoff Longman" <gl...@gmail.com>
> Newsgroups: gmane.comp.jakarta.tapestry.devel
> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 8:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Future of Tapestry in questionable
>
>
> This one is floating around on the user list.
>
> I was wondering when it would come up.
>
> I have to admit I was a bit dismayed by Howard's blog entries lately.
> Almost every second of my free time in the last 4 years has been
> devoted to Spindle so when the driver of Tapestry starts musing about
> the next framework to build I did do a double take. I didn't raise an
> issue about it but since somebody now has...
>
> Howard, where are you going with Tapestry?
>
> Geoff
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
--
The Spindle guy. http://spindle.sf.net
Get help with Spindle:
http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/spindle-user
Announcement Feed:
http://www.jroller.com/rss/glongman?catname=/Announcements
Feature Updates: http://spindle.sf.net/updates
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Future of Tapestry in questionable
Posted by Vjeran Marcinko <vj...@email.t-com.hr>.
Oh come on Geoff, this isn't fair.
I personally admire Howard for talking about some advantages of other web
technologies out there, thus learning how to improve Tapestry in similar
ways.
I think that general problem is that people who invested too much time into
something lose ability to talk objectively about it. Some users have
invested a lot of time to learn Tapestry, same as you invested a lot of
yourself in Spindle. And I certainly don't believe anyone invested more time
(and money) in Tapestry than Howard. And having in mind how competitive this
technology is (JSF, Wicket, RoR...), and how it's easier for some of those
frameworks to make some things better just because they are newer, imagine
how it must be hard for Howard to watch them having *some parts* better
done. Such people usually turn fanatic, thus quite unpleasant to conversate
with, because they defend their child project with all kinds of false
arguments. And if some team mate start admitting some disadvantages, they
accuse him of not being "true believer", being like "damaging" to project.
Because real leader should be fanatic, with harsh hand, not letting
followers wonder of his capability to bring them to final victory.
Pro-republican thinking ;)
Howard isn't like that.
-Vjeran
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Longman" <gl...@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: gmane.comp.jakarta.tapestry.devel
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: Future of Tapestry in questionable
This one is floating around on the user list.
I was wondering when it would come up.
I have to admit I was a bit dismayed by Howard's blog entries lately.
Almost every second of my free time in the last 4 years has been
devoted to Spindle so when the driver of Tapestry starts musing about
the next framework to build I did do a double take. I didn't raise an
issue about it but since somebody now has...
Howard, where are you going with Tapestry?
Geoff
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Re: Future of Tapestry in questionable
Posted by Danny Angus <Da...@slc.co.uk>.
Geoff,
my 2c...
One of the things the ASF tries to do is to ensure that projects don't have
a life that depends upon one or two key people.
We try to create self-sustaining communities around code, and call them
projects.
I know that Howard is the human dynamo driving Tapestry forward, and
respect him for the vision he has and for the work he's done, but it is
really up to the Tapestry community, not Howard on his own, to ensure that
there is a sustainable future for the project. This is one of the perceived
benefits of being part of Apache, sustainability. maturity, and an antidote
to the lone-programmer project.
One way to do this is make sure that you're all facing in the same
direction. Techniques such as status files, clear plans, proposals & votes,
while they may seem too bureaucratic at times, help to achieve this by
creating a meritocracy and giving everyone an equal say, ensuring that the
quieter voices aren't drowned out by the loud ones.
The jakarta PMC and the wider ASF community have masses of relevant
experience, individually and collectively, of the good and the bad, which
you can draw on to help you with issues like these.
You ask "Howard, where are you going with Tapestry?" I think this is the
wrong question.
You are a committer Geoff, where are _you_, all of you collectively, going
with Tapestry. Howard is a member (valued and hard working) of your team,
he dominates Tapestry's history but by bringing Tapestry to Apache he
renounced his "ownership" of the project. If Howard wants at some point,
like almost everyone who has ever started a project has, to take a less
dominant role and concentrate on New Things, then it is clearly and
explicitly up to you, the Tapestry commiters, to step up and keep the
project alive.
And in the real world some projects do fade away, what you have to do is
make sure that they fade away because the need has gone and not because the
community has become disfunctional.
Tapestry owes a huge debt to Howard, but he is only human and deserves a
life outside the project, it shouldn't depend upon him alone for its
future.
d.
|---------+---------------------------->
| | Howard Lewis Ship|
| | <hlship@gmail.com|
| | > |
| | |
| | 14/07/2005 00:44 |
| | Please respond to|
| | "Tapestry |
| | development" |
|---------+---------------------------->
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| |
| To: Tapestry development <ta...@jakarta.apache.org>, Geoff Longman <gl...@gmail.com> |
| cc: |
| Subject: Re: Future of Tapestry in questionable |
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Wow! This surreal thread was amusing me until I saw that Geoff was
getting concerned.
Geoff, don't be concerned.
I think Ruby on Rails, Wicket, even JSF have a ideas to offer to the
Tapestry community.. I think Ruby, Python, Haskell, Erlang and others
have ideas to offer Java and Java developers.
I've said that Tapestry will only be complete about five minutes
before the last web application of all time is completed. And I expect
to be involved that long.
Meanwhile, if you look at the list of enhancements for Tapestry 4.0
(say, in the beta-1 release notes), or our plans for 4.1, I would say
Tapestry is thriving.
On 7/13/05, Geoff Longman <gl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This one is floating around on the user list.
>
> I was wondering when it would come up.
>
> I have to admit I was a bit dismayed by Howard's blog entries lately.
> Almost every second of my free time in the last 4 years has been
> devoted to Spindle so when the driver of Tapestry starts musing about
> the next framework to build I did do a double take. I didn't raise an
> issue about it but since somebody now has...
>
> Howard, where are you going with Tapestry?
>
> Geoff
>
> On 7/13/05, famanfo@tydex.com <fa...@tydex.com> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Recent views expressed by Howard on his blog and discussions on the net
> > makes me question the future of Tapestry. He is sounding more and more
pro
> > Ruby on Rails and a bit anti Java. So the question is would Tapestry
end up
> > along the way like one of those abandoned OS projects with no
development
> > activity whatsover? This is something I think worth thinking about by
we
> > Tapestry users. To be honest, I'm taking a serious look at Wicket now.
> > What do you think?
> >
> > Francis
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> > http://mail2web.com/ .
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> The Spindle guy. http://spindle.sf.net
> Get help with Spindle:
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/spindle-user
> Announcement Feed:
> http://www.jroller.com/rss/glongman?catname=/Announcements
> Feature Updates: http://spindle.sf.net/updates
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Independent J2EE / Open-Source Java Consultant
Creator, Jakarta Tapestry
Creator, Jakarta HiveMind
Professional Tapestry training, mentoring, support
and project work. http://howardlewisship.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Fwd: Future of Tapestry in questionable
Posted by Geoff Longman <gl...@gmail.com>.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Geoff Longman <gl...@gmail.com>
Date: Jul 13, 2005 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: Future of Tapestry in questionable
To: Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>
On 7/13/05, Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow! This surreal thread was amusing me until I saw that Geoff was
> getting concerned.
>
> Geoff, don't be concerned.
Thanks. It was quite chilling to read the blog entry, kinda like a
"jumping the shark" moment.
BTW you should respond to this on the user list too. I cross posted to
the dev list and in gmail it's hard to tell that fact.
And now, back to Spindle!
Geoff
>
>
> I think Ruby on Rails, Wicket, even JSF have a ideas to offer to the
> Tapestry community.. I think Ruby, Python, Haskell, Erlang and others
> have ideas to offer Java and Java developers.
>
> I've said that Tapestry will only be complete about five minutes
> before the last web application of all time is completed. And I expect
> to be involved that long.
>
> Meanwhile, if you look at the list of enhancements for Tapestry 4.0
> (say, in the beta-1 release notes), or our plans for 4.1, I would say
> Tapestry is thriving.
>
>
> On 7/13/05, Geoff Longman <glongman@gmail.com > wrote:
> > This one is floating around on the user list.
> >
> > I was wondering when it would come up.
> >
> > I have to admit I was a bit dismayed by Howard's blog entries lately.
> > Almost every second of my free time in the last 4 years has been
> > devoted to Spindle so when the driver of Tapestry starts musing about
> > the next framework to build I did do a double take. I didn't raise an
> > issue about it but since somebody now has...
> >
> > Howard, where are you going with Tapestry?
> >
> > Geoff
> >
> > On 7/13/05, famanfo@tydex.com <famanfo@tydex.com > wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Recent views expressed by Howard on his blog and discussions on the net
> > > makes me question the future of Tapestry. He is sounding more and more pro
> > > Ruby on Rails and a bit anti Java. So the question is would Tapestry end up
> > > along the way like one of those abandoned OS projects with no development
> > > activity whatsover? This is something I think worth thinking about by we
> > > Tapestry users. To be honest, I'm taking a serious look at Wicket now.
> > > What do you think?
> > >
> > > Francis
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> > > http://mail2web.com/ .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > The Spindle guy. http://spindle.sf.net
> > Get help with Spindle:
> > http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/spindle-user
> > Announcement Feed:
> > http://www.jroller.com/rss/glongman?catname=/Announcements
> > Feature Updates: http://spindle.sf.net/updates
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Howard M. Lewis Ship
> Independent J2EE / Open-Source Java Consultant
> Creator, Jakarta Tapestry
> Creator, Jakarta HiveMind
>
> Professional Tapestry training, mentoring, support
> and project work. http://howardlewisship.com
>
--
The Spindle guy. http://spindle.sf.net
Get help with Spindle:
http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/spindle-user
Announcement Feed:
http://www.jroller.com/rss/glongman?catname=/Announcements
Feature Updates: http://spindle.sf.net/updates
--
The Spindle guy. http://spindle.sf.net
Get help with Spindle:
http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/spindle-user
Announcement Feed:
http://www.jroller.com/rss/glongman?catname=/Announcements
Feature Updates: http://spindle.sf.net/updates
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Future of Tapestry in questionable
Posted by Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>.
Wow! This surreal thread was amusing me until I saw that Geoff was
getting concerned.
Geoff, don't be concerned.
I think Ruby on Rails, Wicket, even JSF have a ideas to offer to the
Tapestry community.. I think Ruby, Python, Haskell, Erlang and others
have ideas to offer Java and Java developers.
I've said that Tapestry will only be complete about five minutes
before the last web application of all time is completed. And I expect
to be involved that long.
Meanwhile, if you look at the list of enhancements for Tapestry 4.0
(say, in the beta-1 release notes), or our plans for 4.1, I would say
Tapestry is thriving.
On 7/13/05, Geoff Longman <gl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This one is floating around on the user list.
>
> I was wondering when it would come up.
>
> I have to admit I was a bit dismayed by Howard's blog entries lately.
> Almost every second of my free time in the last 4 years has been
> devoted to Spindle so when the driver of Tapestry starts musing about
> the next framework to build I did do a double take. I didn't raise an
> issue about it but since somebody now has...
>
> Howard, where are you going with Tapestry?
>
> Geoff
>
> On 7/13/05, famanfo@tydex.com <fa...@tydex.com> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Recent views expressed by Howard on his blog and discussions on the net
> > makes me question the future of Tapestry. He is sounding more and more pro
> > Ruby on Rails and a bit anti Java. So the question is would Tapestry end up
> > along the way like one of those abandoned OS projects with no development
> > activity whatsover? This is something I think worth thinking about by we
> > Tapestry users. To be honest, I'm taking a serious look at Wicket now.
> > What do you think?
> >
> > Francis
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> > http://mail2web.com/ .
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> The Spindle guy. http://spindle.sf.net
> Get help with Spindle:
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/spindle-user
> Announcement Feed:
> http://www.jroller.com/rss/glongman?catname=/Announcements
> Feature Updates: http://spindle.sf.net/updates
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Independent J2EE / Open-Source Java Consultant
Creator, Jakarta Tapestry
Creator, Jakarta HiveMind
Professional Tapestry training, mentoring, support
and project work. http://howardlewisship.com
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