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Posted to dev@community.apache.org by Evil Cat <ev...@163.com> on 2022/05/13 14:57:15 UTC
[Question]About promotion ambassador
Hi guys,
I know that Apache TLP currently has two roles of Committer and PMC,
but I would like to ask if there is a role of promotion ambassador (event planning, community evangelism),
although I know that Committer and PMC also have such accusations, there seems to be a clearer role like Promoter Ambassador,
so I wanted to ask if we have an official role like Promoter Ambassador.
Best Regards,
Evil Cat
Re: [Question]About promotion ambassador
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Le ven. 13 mai 2022 à 17:44, Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> a écrit :
> ...What I’m suggesting is that the denotation of “advocate” (on top of or
> separate from alternative denotations) and a list of those friendly people
> who might want to collaborate in the outside non-code world might be nice....
Projects are free to do things like that, and if they find it useful
it's nice to share the ideas, for example in foundation or comdev blog
posts.
But I don't think we need an official ASF status for such things, it's
just an informal (and important) community thing.
-Bertrand
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Re: [Question]About promotion ambassador
Posted by Andrew Wetmore <co...@gmail.com>.
I think the point is for the potential audience: "This group thinks that
this person knows enough about their product to explain it really well and
in an enjoyable way".
On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 3:44 PM Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote:
> Speaking of being ambassador - very much yes to do it, very much no to
> "official status" of being one (since I was called by Rich).
> IMHO. You are an ambassador or "evangelist" because you do it not because
> you have a "title" to do it. There is absolutely no benefit or entitlement
> of being appointed as an ambassador.
> If you do it, and do it well, you will be known as an ambassador. What else
> is needed? Why do you need a title?
>
> J.
>
--
Andrew Wetmore
Editor, Moose House Publications <https://moosehousepress.com/>
Editor-Writer, The Apache Software Foundation <https://apache.org/>
Re: [Question]About promotion ambassador
Posted by Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com>.
What's the problem with reaching out to the dev@ ? This is a great thing to
do.
I keep on explaining people when they reach me (or anyone else) directly
for help in any subject in Airflow that they are doing it wrong for three
reasons:
1) they do not let others, who feel like and are able to help them, to
answer, effectively limiting their own options
2) they demand exclusive attention from those they reach out to directly
(and the people reached out to can be sick, unavailable, busy, have no
time, take vacations), by reaching them directly you put a pressure on them
- you should be aware of that.
3) they do not let anyone else to learn from their reaching out because it
is done in private
This is IMHO, wrong on basically all levels where community is there.
I think people should learn more to ask publicly for help. Doing so is not
a sign of weakness, it's a sign for maturity - you are mature enough to
know that you do not know things and reach out to a wider audience for
help. It also forces you to specify precisely what you ask for and this is
great.
J.
On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 9:07 PM Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> I’d love to know who the specific people are that I should reach out to per
> Apache project to discuss collaboration around events, promotions of our
> projects, etc.
>
> If the answer to the above is “write to their mailing list” or “everyone”,
> etc, then no that’s not what I mean.
>
> Without a single point of advocacy contact per project, which would be 100%
> different to the current fragmented state, we will continue in the same way
> as before in the current fragmented state.
>
> Also happy to do this outside Apache if needed, e.g., Foojay.io which I am
> heavily involved in, but ideally we could achieve this within Apache and,
> no, not within current structures etc etc etc, but in a new way, please.
>
> Gj
>
>
> On Fri, 13 May 2022 at 19:44, Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote:
>
> > Speaking of being ambassador - very much yes to do it, very much no to
> > "official status" of being one (since I was called by Rich).
> > IMHO. You are an ambassador or "evangelist" because you do it not because
> > you have a "title" to do it. There is absolutely no benefit or
> entitlement
> > of being appointed as an ambassador.
> > If you do it, and do it well, you will be known as an ambassador. What
> else
> > is needed? Why do you need a title?
> >
> > J.
> >
>
Re: [Question]About promotion ambassador
Posted by Josh Fischer <jo...@joshfischer.io>.
Rich is on point.
On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 3:23 PM Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote:
> 100% that.
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 9:31 PM <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 2022-05-13 at 20:07 +0100, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
> > > I’d love to know who the specific people are that I should reach out
> > > to per
> > > Apache project to discuss collaboration around events, promotions of
> > > our
> > > projects, etc.
> > >
> > > If the answer to the above is “write to their mailing list” or
> > > “everyone”,
> > > etc, then no that’s not what I mean.
> >
> > I tend to think that the answer *should* be write to the mailing list,
> > but that *also* there should be people who consider it their role to
> > step up and answer those questions.
> >
> > Why both? Because we do things in the view of the entire community, so
> > that 1) people can see answers to questions that they may have, but
> > haven't asked yet and 2) people see the conversation and think "I could
> > do that too" and then step in the next time.
> >
> > When the answer is "Email Larry", then 1) only Larry sees the questions
> > and they don't benefit anybody else and 2) the rest of the community is
> > told, implicitly, back off, that's not your cookie.
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >
> >
>
--
Sent from A Mobile Device
Re: [Question]About promotion ambassador
Posted by Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com>.
100% that.
On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 9:31 PM <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2022-05-13 at 20:07 +0100, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
> > I’d love to know who the specific people are that I should reach out
> > to per
> > Apache project to discuss collaboration around events, promotions of
> > our
> > projects, etc.
> >
> > If the answer to the above is “write to their mailing list” or
> > “everyone”,
> > etc, then no that’s not what I mean.
>
> I tend to think that the answer *should* be write to the mailing list,
> but that *also* there should be people who consider it their role to
> step up and answer those questions.
>
> Why both? Because we do things in the view of the entire community, so
> that 1) people can see answers to questions that they may have, but
> haven't asked yet and 2) people see the conversation and think "I could
> do that too" and then step in the next time.
>
> When the answer is "Email Larry", then 1) only Larry sees the questions
> and they don't benefit anybody else and 2) the rest of the community is
> told, implicitly, back off, that's not your cookie.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
>
Re: [Question]About promotion ambassador
Posted by rb...@rcbowen.com.
On Fri, 2022-05-13 at 20:07 +0100, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
> I’d love to know who the specific people are that I should reach out
> to per
> Apache project to discuss collaboration around events, promotions of
> our
> projects, etc.
>
> If the answer to the above is “write to their mailing list” or
> “everyone”,
> etc, then no that’s not what I mean.
I tend to think that the answer *should* be write to the mailing list,
but that *also* there should be people who consider it their role to
step up and answer those questions.
Why both? Because we do things in the view of the entire community, so
that 1) people can see answers to questions that they may have, but
haven't asked yet and 2) people see the conversation and think "I could
do that too" and then step in the next time.
When the answer is "Email Larry", then 1) only Larry sees the questions
and they don't benefit anybody else and 2) the rest of the community is
told, implicitly, back off, that's not your cookie.
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Re: [Question]About promotion ambassador
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
I’d love to know who the specific people are that I should reach out to per
Apache project to discuss collaboration around events, promotions of our
projects, etc.
If the answer to the above is “write to their mailing list” or “everyone”,
etc, then no that’s not what I mean.
Without a single point of advocacy contact per project, which would be 100%
different to the current fragmented state, we will continue in the same way
as before in the current fragmented state.
Also happy to do this outside Apache if needed, e.g., Foojay.io which I am
heavily involved in, but ideally we could achieve this within Apache and,
no, not within current structures etc etc etc, but in a new way, please.
Gj
On Fri, 13 May 2022 at 19:44, Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com> wrote:
> Speaking of being ambassador - very much yes to do it, very much no to
> "official status" of being one (since I was called by Rich).
> IMHO. You are an ambassador or "evangelist" because you do it not because
> you have a "title" to do it. There is absolutely no benefit or entitlement
> of being appointed as an ambassador.
> If you do it, and do it well, you will be known as an ambassador. What else
> is needed? Why do you need a title?
>
> J.
>
Re: [Question]About promotion ambassador
Posted by Jarek Potiuk <ja...@potiuk.com>.
Speaking of being ambassador - very much yes to do it, very much no to
"official status" of being one (since I was called by Rich).
IMHO. You are an ambassador or "evangelist" because you do it not because
you have a "title" to do it. There is absolutely no benefit or entitlement
of being appointed as an ambassador.
If you do it, and do it well, you will be known as an ambassador. What else
is needed? Why do you need a title?
J.
Re: [Question]About promotion ambassador
Posted by Andrew Wetmore <co...@gmail.com>.
Adobe and other companies designate people as "evangelists" for their
various products. I see that often enough that I wonder whether it is a
more useful term in the software world than "ambassador", which carries
overtones of diplomatic negotiations.
On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 2:40 PM Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This sounds like info that can be on a project's website when listing
> out the PMC and committers. Each person can add info about what they
> do in the project.
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 11:15 AM <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 2022-05-13 at 16:43 +0100, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
> > > Yes, this is well established and is not at all under scrutiny at
> > > all.
> > >
> > > What I’m suggesting is that the denotation of “advocate” (on top of
> > > or
> > > separate from alternative denotations) and a list of those friendly
> > > people
> > > who might want to collaborate in the outside non-code world might be
> > > nice.
> > >
> > > Yes, we can go to the well established responses to this or… just for
> > > this
> > > time… maybe not?
> >
> >
> > Well, like I said, there are projects that do designate such a role.
> > Josh, for example, plays that role for Heron, and Jarek does for
> > Airflow.
> >
> > I, for one, encourage projects to designate a community manager, an
> > events coordinator, a publicist - as long as it's clear that they're
> > not the only person allowed to do those activities.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
>
--
Andrew Wetmore
Editor, Moose House Publications <https://moosehousepress.com/>
Editor-Writer, The Apache Software Foundation <https://apache.org/>
Re: [Question]About promotion ambassador
Posted by Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>.
This sounds like info that can be on a project's website when listing
out the PMC and committers. Each person can add info about what they
do in the project.
On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 11:15 AM <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2022-05-13 at 16:43 +0100, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
> > Yes, this is well established and is not at all under scrutiny at
> > all.
> >
> > What I’m suggesting is that the denotation of “advocate” (on top of
> > or
> > separate from alternative denotations) and a list of those friendly
> > people
> > who might want to collaborate in the outside non-code world might be
> > nice.
> >
> > Yes, we can go to the well established responses to this or… just for
> > this
> > time… maybe not?
>
>
> Well, like I said, there are projects that do designate such a role.
> Josh, for example, plays that role for Heron, and Jarek does for
> Airflow.
>
> I, for one, encourage projects to designate a community manager, an
> events coordinator, a publicist - as long as it's clear that they're
> not the only person allowed to do those activities.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
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Re: [Question]About promotion ambassador
Posted by rb...@rcbowen.com.
On Fri, 2022-05-13 at 16:43 +0100, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
> Yes, this is well established and is not at all under scrutiny at
> all.
>
> What I’m suggesting is that the denotation of “advocate” (on top of
> or
> separate from alternative denotations) and a list of those friendly
> people
> who might want to collaborate in the outside non-code world might be
> nice.
>
> Yes, we can go to the well established responses to this or… just for
> this
> time… maybe not?
Well, like I said, there are projects that do designate such a role.
Josh, for example, plays that role for Heron, and Jarek does for
Airflow.
I, for one, encourage projects to designate a community manager, an
events coordinator, a publicist - as long as it's clear that they're
not the only person allowed to do those activities.
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Re: [Question]About promotion ambassador
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
Yes, this is well established and is not at all under scrutiny at all.
What I’m suggesting is that the denotation of “advocate” (on top of or
separate from alternative denotations) and a list of those friendly people
who might want to collaborate in the outside non-code world might be nice.
Yes, we can go to the well established responses to this or… just for this
time… maybe not?
Gj
On Fri, 13 May 2022 at 16:39, <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2022-05-13 at 22:57 +0800, Evil Cat wrote:
> > Hi guys,
> >
> >
> > I know that Apache TLP currently has two roles of Committer and
> > PMC,
> > but I would like to ask if there is a role of promotion ambassador
> > (event planning, community evangelism),
> > although I know that Committer and PMC also have such accusations,
> > there seems to be a clearer role like Promoter Ambassador,
> > so I wanted to ask if we have an official role like Promoter
> > Ambassador.
>
> Some projects have someone designated in a role like that.
>
> However, do note that "committer" does not necessarily imply committing
> code, but, rather, one who is committed to the project. It covers all
> involvement in projects including code, docs, design, events,
> promotion, and so on. As such, a project SHOULD make someone a
> committer for none-code contributions.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
>
Re: [Question]About promotion ambassador
Posted by rb...@rcbowen.com.
On Fri, 2022-05-13 at 22:57 +0800, Evil Cat wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
>
> I know that Apache TLP currently has two roles of Committer and
> PMC,
> but I would like to ask if there is a role of promotion ambassador
> (event planning, community evangelism),
> although I know that Committer and PMC also have such accusations,
> there seems to be a clearer role like Promoter Ambassador,
> so I wanted to ask if we have an official role like Promoter
> Ambassador.
Some projects have someone designated in a role like that.
However, do note that "committer" does not necessarily imply committing
code, but, rather, one who is committed to the project. It covers all
involvement in projects including code, docs, design, events,
promotion, and so on. As such, a project SHOULD make someone a
committer for none-code contributions.
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Re: [Question]About promotion ambassador
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
Le ven. 13 mai 2022 à 17:06, Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> a écrit :
>
> I like the idea because then I’d know who of the committers to reach out to
> around advocacy specifically instead of code...
One of my basic principles in ASF projects is to ask the project, not
specific people.
So in such a case I would write to the dev list with an [advocacy]
subject line tag.
Back to the original question, it's totally fine to have committers
who do not write code but are "committed" to helping the project. Many
projects have such committers.
Projects are always free to make up their own informal roles, but from
the ASF's point of view I think committer and PMC member are
sufficient.
-Bertrand
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Re: [Question]About promotion ambassador
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
I like the idea because then I’d know who of the committers to reach out to
around advocacy specifically instead of code.
Gj
On Fri, 13 May 2022 at 16:04, Tomasz Urbaszek <tu...@apache.org> wrote:
> Is such a role really needed? I know at least a few committers that were
> invited because they were "ambassadors". Those people usually helped with
> organising project oriented conferences or did amazing community building
> (getting new contributors not organising 10 s of meetups).
>
> What would be the difference between "ambassador" and committer (other than
> write access to repo)?
>
> Cheers,
> Tomek
>
>
> On Fri, 13 May 2022 at 16:57, Evil Cat <ev...@163.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi guys,
> >
> >
> > I know that Apache TLP currently has two roles of Committer and PMC,
> > but I would like to ask if there is a role of promotion ambassador (event
> > planning, community evangelism),
> > although I know that Committer and PMC also have such accusations, there
> > seems to be a clearer role like Promoter Ambassador,
> > so I wanted to ask if we have an official role like Promoter Ambassador.
> >
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> >
> > Evil Cat
>
Re: [Question]About promotion ambassador
Posted by Tomasz Urbaszek <tu...@apache.org>.
Is such a role really needed? I know at least a few committers that were
invited because they were "ambassadors". Those people usually helped with
organising project oriented conferences or did amazing community building
(getting new contributors not organising 10 s of meetups).
What would be the difference between "ambassador" and committer (other than
write access to repo)?
Cheers,
Tomek
On Fri, 13 May 2022 at 16:57, Evil Cat <ev...@163.com> wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
>
> I know that Apache TLP currently has two roles of Committer and PMC,
> but I would like to ask if there is a role of promotion ambassador (event
> planning, community evangelism),
> although I know that Committer and PMC also have such accusations, there
> seems to be a clearer role like Promoter Ambassador,
> so I wanted to ask if we have an official role like Promoter Ambassador.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
> Evil Cat