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Posted to users@subversion.apache.org by Ds Jstc <ds...@gmail.com> on 2010/07/28 18:13:26 UTC
Mailing lists? Really?
I've been using subversion in a lighthearted way for a couple of years,
recommending it to clients, sending a little money to Tigris now and
then. It works very well for most of what I need it for. But I have
one big problem that I can't resolve.
It's this: the mailing list paradigm drives me insane.
I want to search for solutions, complain about my favorite missing
features, and reply to other people's problems when I've already solved
them. But I can't seem to do that without subscribing to the mailing
list. And my inbox is entirely full enough, thank you.
There are probably thousands of competent, helpful people like me who
would love to participate, but won't subscribe to yet another list. You
aren't hearing from them... because they're not subscribed. Please
change over to a threaded forum, so I can participate without resorting
to email.
Is this something Tigris can change? Is it worth opening a new issue
report about it? Everything I've found in the system is two years old
or more.
Thanks!
Dylan
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
Posted by Les Mikesell <le...@gmail.com>.
On 7/28/2010 1:13 PM, Ds Jstc wrote:
> I've been using subversion in a lighthearted way for a couple of years,
> recommending it to clients, sending a little money to Tigris now and
> then. It works very well for most of what I need it for. But I have one
> big problem that I can't resolve.
>
> It's this: the mailing list paradigm drives me insane.
If you have more than a couple of interests, mailing lists are the only
way to keep up - the messages come to you in one place instead of you
have to cycle among all of them.
> I want to search for solutions, complain about my favorite missing
> features, and reply to other people's problems when I've already solved
> them.
Realistically, how often are you going to go out of your way to look for
other people's questions if they don't come to you automatically? The
places I've seen that use forums - or have forum/email gateways get
questions on the forums but unless there is a paid staff for the product
they don't get answers.
> But I can't seem to do that without subscribing to the mailing
> list. And my inbox is entirely full enough, thank you.
Get a free email account at gmail, yahoo, hotmail, etc. and use that to
subscribe. Don't try to mix list traffic with a work account.
> There are probably thousands of competent, helpful people like me who
> would love to participate, but won't subscribe to yet another list.
I'm not convinced. It is no harder to participate in dozens of lists
than just one.
> You
> aren't hearing from them... because they're not subscribed. Please
> change over to a threaded forum, so I can participate without resorting
> to email.
I'd never bother to visit dozens of different forums.
--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell@gmail.com
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>.
David Weintraub wrote on Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 16:23:57 -0400:
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 2:13 PM, Ds Jstc <ds...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > But I have one big problem that I can't resolve.
> >
> > It's this: the mailing list paradigm drives me insane.
> >
> > I want to search for solutions, complain about my favorite missing features,
> > and reply to other people's problems when I've already solved them. But I
> > can't seem to do that without subscribing to the mailing list. And my inbox
> > is entirely full enough, thank you.
>
> You don't have to use this mailing list. You can use forums such as
> Stackoverflow.com. However, as mailing lists go, this is one of the
> most helpful and useful ones I've seen. Because of that, you're
> probably stuck with this email list.
>
Also, some of the maintainers are on this list. (I personally don't read
any web forums related to Subversion.)
> But, the best reason is that with 7 Gigabytes of storage, I don't have
> to delete any emails. After a couple of years, you have an archive of
> easily searchable Subversion emails (better than the current web
> archive they use).
>
Nah. I have N GB of mail storage from my provider, and I still set the
svn-dev mailbox to auto-delete mail older than M days. When I need
something older I use the archives.
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>.
David Weintraub wrote on Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 16:23:57 -0400:
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 2:13 PM, Ds Jstc <ds...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > But I have one big problem that I can't resolve.
> >
> > It's this: the mailing list paradigm drives me insane.
> >
> > I want to search for solutions, complain about my favorite missing features,
> > and reply to other people's problems when I've already solved them. But I
> > can't seem to do that without subscribing to the mailing list. And my inbox
> > is entirely full enough, thank you.
>
> You don't have to use this mailing list. You can use forums such as
> Stackoverflow.com. However, as mailing lists go, this is one of the
> most helpful and useful ones I've seen. Because of that, you're
> probably stuck with this email list.
>
Also, some of the maintainers are on this list. (I personally don't read
any web forums related to Subversion.)
> But, the best reason is that with 7 Gigabytes of storage, I don't have
> to delete any emails. After a couple of years, you have an archive of
> easily searchable Subversion emails (better than the current web
> archive they use).
>
Nah. I have N GB of mail storage from my provider, and I still set the
svn-dev mailbox to auto-delete mail older than M days. When I need
something older I use the archives.
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
Posted by David Weintraub <qa...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 2:13 PM, Ds Jstc <ds...@gmail.com> wrote:
> But I have one big problem that I can't resolve.
>
> It's this: the mailing list paradigm drives me insane.
>
> I want to search for solutions, complain about my favorite missing features,
> and reply to other people's problems when I've already solved them. But I
> can't seem to do that without subscribing to the mailing list. And my inbox
> is entirely full enough, thank you.
You don't have to use this mailing list. You can use forums such as
Stackoverflow.com. However, as mailing lists go, this is one of the
most helpful and useful ones I've seen. Because of that, you're
probably stuck with this email list.
I believe this can be seen via Stackoverflow. There are only about
5,300 tagged Subversion issues in Stackoverflow. Compare this with PHP
(50,700), Java (60,000), or Python (30,000+).
I use a Google GMail account for my mailing lists (instead of my work
email or my home email address). This has several nice features. For
example, it separates out my mailing lists from other email detritus
found at work and at home. Gmail also seems to be tuned for mailing
lists. You can easily setup tags for each mailing list, and the
conversations appear as threads which help you keep things together.
Gmail also hides the original question on replies, so you don't see
them.
But, the best reason is that with 7 Gigabytes of storage, I don't have
to delete any emails. After a couple of years, you have an archive of
easily searchable Subversion emails (better than the current web
archive they use).
So, sorry this email list for Subversion is the best support forum
around. But, if you create your own Gmail account just for the list,
and use the web browser interface, you'll find the list much more
manageable.
--
David Weintraub
qazwart@gmail.com
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
Posted by Csaba Raduly <rc...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 11:35 PM, Bob Archer wrote:
>
> While I do agree that forums are somewhat more user friendly... Aren't there also several Web properties that let you participate in the mail list via your browser that make it very much like a forum would appear?
>
I prefer mailing lists. Threading in most forum software ranges from
abysmal to non-existent :(
--
Life is complex, with real and imaginary parts.
"Ok, it boots. Which means it must be bug-free and perfect. " -- Linus Torvalds
"People disagree with me. I just ignore them." -- Linus Torvalds
RE: Mailing lists? Really?
Posted by Bob Archer <Bo...@amsi.com>.
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Ralph Seichter
> <su...@seichter.de> wrote:
> > On 28.07.10 20:13, Ds Jstc wrote:
> >>
> >> Is this something Tigris can change?
> >
> > I hope Tigris will never consider abandoning mailing lists for a
> forum.
>
> It should also be noted that Subversion hasn't been using Tigris
> infrastructure for mailing lists for the better part of a year.
> Orthogonal to this discussion, perhaps, but the factual nit picker
> in
> me feels compelled to point this out. :)
>
> Cheers,
> -Hyrum
I was going to point this out too... but decided it didn't add to the discussion. While I do agree that forums are somewhat more user friendly... Aren't there also several Web properties that let you participate in the mail list via your browser that make it very much like a forum would appear?
BOb
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
Posted by "Hyrum K. Wright" <hy...@mail.utexas.edu>.
On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Ralph Seichter
<su...@seichter.de> wrote:
> On 28.07.10 20:13, Ds Jstc wrote:
>>
>> Is this something Tigris can change?
>
> I hope Tigris will never consider abandoning mailing lists for a forum.
It should also be noted that Subversion hasn't been using Tigris
infrastructure for mailing lists for the better part of a year.
Orthogonal to this discussion, perhaps, but the factual nit picker in
me feels compelled to point this out. :)
Cheers,
-Hyrum
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
Posted by Ed <SV...@0x1b.com>.
On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Ralph Seichter
<su...@seichter.de> wrote:
> On 28.07.10 20:13, Ds Jstc wrote:
>
>> my inbox is entirely full enough, thank you.
>
> There are numerous fine MUAs out there which will gladly sort your
> incoming mail and prevent inbox clutter by providing folders. You might
> also be able to use Sieve for a server-side solution.
>
>> Please change over to a threaded forum, so I can participate without
>> resorting to email.
>
> Mailing lists are superior to forums because all relevant information is
> delivered without user interaction, while forums must be actively
> visited. Besides, forum software widely varies in usability, while each
> user can freely choose his personal favourite e-mail client. Also, mail
> can be stored locally and is available offline, if the need arises.
>
>> Is this something Tigris can change?
>
> I hope Tigris will never consider abandoning mailing lists for a forum.
>
> -Ralph
>
+1 and apache.org too
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
Posted by Ralph Seichter <su...@seichter.de>.
On 28.07.10 20:13, Ds Jstc wrote:
> my inbox is entirely full enough, thank you.
There are numerous fine MUAs out there which will gladly sort your
incoming mail and prevent inbox clutter by providing folders. You might
also be able to use Sieve for a server-side solution.
> Please change over to a threaded forum, so I can participate without
> resorting to email.
Mailing lists are superior to forums because all relevant information is
delivered without user interaction, while forums must be actively
visited. Besides, forum software widely varies in usability, while each
user can freely choose his personal favourite e-mail client. Also, mail
can be stored locally and is available offline, if the need arises.
> Is this something Tigris can change?
I hope Tigris will never consider abandoning mailing lists for a forum.
-Ralph
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
Posted by Lorenz <lo...@yahoo.com>.
Stanimir Stamenkov wrote:
>> I want to search for solutions, complain about my favorite missing
>> features, and reply to other people's problems when I've already
>> solved them.
>
>Search for solutions in the archives:
>
>http://subversion.apache.org/mailing-lists.html
>
>You may even use Google:
>
>http://www.google.com/search?q=i+want+solutions+site%3Amail-archives.apache.org%2Fmod_mbox%2Fsubversion-users
in addition there are also http://svn.haxx.se and http://gmane.org
that archive the subversion mailing lists.
The latter even provides a mailing-list to nntp gateway as its main
service 8-)
--
Lorenz
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
Posted by Stanimir Stamenkov <s7...@netscape.net>.
Wed, 28 Jul 2010 11:13:26 -0700, /Ds Jstc/:
> I want to search for solutions, complain about my favorite missing
> features, and reply to other people's problems when I've already
> solved them.
Search for solutions in the archives:
http://subversion.apache.org/mailing-lists.html
You may even use Google:
http://www.google.com/search?q=i+want+solutions+site%3Amail-archives.apache.org%2Fmod_mbox%2Fsubversion-users
> But I can't seem to do that without subscribing to the mailing list.
> And my inbox is entirely full enough, thank you.
>
> There are probably thousands of competent, helpful people like me who
> would love to participate, but won't subscribe to yet another list.
> You aren't hearing from them... because they're not subscribed.
> Please change over to a threaded forum, so I can participate without
> resorting to email.
Don't you have filters (to sort out mailing lists in different folders)
and threaded view in your email client? Wouldn't you need to subscribe
to yet another web-based forum if it wasn't a mailing list? The last
thing I would want is to crawl an ill designed web forum with the speed
of a snail. I personally prefer NNTP, but mailing-lists are just fine.
--
Stanimir
RE: Mailing lists? Really?
Posted by Bob Archer <Bo...@amsi.com>.
> > Certainly not. Nor do you have to subscribe to post. As a non-
> subscriber your post will be moderated but if you are patient it
> will be approved through fairly quickly (says I as one of the
> moderators).
> >
> And indeed, I started this thread without subscribing. But I still
> can't find a way to respond to an existing message without first
> having
> that message in my inbox. That's my main problem.
I see. Although most people should follow the best practice of doing a "reply-all" to list messages so non-subscribers will get those messages as well as it going to the list to be archived.
However, I guess there will still be users that don't do that.
BOb
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
Posted by BRM <bm...@yahoo.com>.
----- Original Message ----
> > Certainly not. Nor do you have to subscribe to post. As a non-subscriber
>your post will be moderated but if you are patient it will be approved through
>fairly quickly (says I as one of the moderators).
> >
> And indeed, I started this thread without subscribing. But I still can't find
>a way to respond to an existing message without first having that message in my
>inbox. That's my main problem.
I just opened groups.google.com, and then searched for subversion. Both the
subversion-dev and subversion users lists came up at the top. Here's the users:
http://groups.google.com/group/subversion_users?lnk=srg
And even this thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/subversion_users/browse_thread/thread/b87e732b8a47420f
Note that there is also a way to post to the list via this interface's "+ new
post" button. I didn't join the group through that interface, but it seems that
the "new post" button makes you join the group before you can post. It has a
nifty forward feature gmail style already there regardless, and I'm guessing you
will get the "reply" after joining the group.
HTH,
Ben
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
Posted by Ds Jstc <ds...@gmail.com>.
> Certainly not. Nor do you have to subscribe to post. As a non-subscriber your post will be moderated but if you are patient it will be approved through fairly quickly (says I as one of the moderators).
>
And indeed, I started this thread without subscribing. But I still
can't find a way to respond to an existing message without first having
that message in my inbox. That's my main problem.
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>.
Bob Archer wrote on Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 17:36:30 -0400:
> Certainly not. Nor do you have to subscribe to post. As a non-subscriber your
> post will be moderated but if you are patient it will be approved through
> fairly quickly (says I as one of the moderators).
>
Further, moderation delay only occurs on the first posting from a given email address.
> BOb
>
RE: Mailing lists? Really?
Posted by Bob Archer <Bo...@amsi.com>.
> Ds Jstc wrote on Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 11:13:26 -0700:
> > I've been using subversion in a lighthearted way for a couple of
> years,
> > recommending it to clients, sending a little money to Tigris now
> and
> > then. It works very well for most of what I need it for. But I
> have
> > one big problem that I can't resolve.
> >
> > It's this: the mailing list paradigm drives me insane.
> >
> > I want to search for solutions, complain about my favorite
> missing
> > features, and reply to other people's problems when I've already
> solved
> > them. But I can't seem to do that without subscribing to the
> mailing
> > list. And my inbox is entirely full enough, thank you.
> >
>
> Do you have to post in order to subscribe? I don't think so.
>
Certainly not. Nor do you have to subscribe to post. As a non-subscriber your post will be moderated but if you are patient it will be approved through fairly quickly (says I as one of the moderators).
BOb
Re: Mailing lists? Really?
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>.
Ds Jstc wrote on Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 11:13:26 -0700:
> I've been using subversion in a lighthearted way for a couple of years,
> recommending it to clients, sending a little money to Tigris now and
> then. It works very well for most of what I need it for. But I have
> one big problem that I can't resolve.
>
> It's this: the mailing list paradigm drives me insane.
>
> I want to search for solutions, complain about my favorite missing
> features, and reply to other people's problems when I've already solved
> them. But I can't seem to do that without subscribing to the mailing
> list. And my inbox is entirely full enough, thank you.
>
Do you have to post in order to subscribe? I don't think so.
(I am subscribed, but not at the address I post from.)
> There are probably thousands of competent, helpful people like me who
> would love to participate, but won't subscribe to yet another list. You
> aren't hearing from them... because they're not subscribed. Please
> change over to a threaded forum, so I can participate without resorting
> to email.
>
> Is this something Tigris can change? Is it worth opening a new issue
> report about it? Everything I've found in the system is two years old
> or more.
>
> Thanks!
> Dylan