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Posted to user@struts.apache.org by Aaron Longwell <li...@newmedialogic.com> on 2003/06/13 07:09:14 UTC
[OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???
I hope I don't start a huge debate....
with that intro, here goes.
I am a freelance web developer. I've been struggling lately with not
being able to use the Struts framework on ALL projects. Specifically, I
do work with a number of Microsoft Devotees. For several sites, this has
meant developing in old ASP.... like playing with Duplos compared to Struts.
I have been spending some time learning the .NET framework. So far it
looks great... er, the features that look like Java look great. But
then, why wouldn't I just use the more open, polished,
community-oriented, original... Java? So now to the point... I don't
have a choice for some projects... I have to use .NET.
I am curious if anyone is aware of an MVC-type framework for .NET. I am
NOT looking for a Struts port to .NET. I started doing a little
research, searching for things like "Best Practices" or ".NET Patterns"
etc. I found almost nothing... no best practices guides. Not even a
single recommendation about builing Object-based backend systems. In
fact, most books I've read on ASP.NET and .NET in general have focused
on database access code directly in the ASPX page itself....(in the
"Code Behind" section).
Am I:
1) Naive to not notice that Java Enterprise developers are light-years
ahead of MS developers in terms of programming practices, design
patterns, and role separation?
2) Mistaken? There really are MVC frameworks in .NET... but they are all
internal... and no community oriented projects exist.
Thanks for the input.
Aaron Longwell
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Re: [OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???
Posted by Alen Ribic <al...@mweb.co.za>.
heheh MS Java (don't forget the MS in front :))
To my knowledge, I don't think is fully compliant to real Java(TM).
--Alen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron Longwell" <li...@newmedialogic.com>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???
> Whoa... MS Has released J#... that would be .NET Java.
>
> Anybody used this? Maybe I could just build an app with struts... then
> copy the Business/Data Tier code to a .NET app in J#.
>
> Is J# code compatible with REAL java?
>
> Aaron Longwell wrote:
>
> > I hope I don't start a huge debate....
> >
> > with that intro, here goes.
> >
> > I am a freelance web developer. I've been struggling lately with not
> > being able to use the Struts framework on ALL projects. Specifically,
> > I do work with a number of Microsoft Devotees. For several sites, this
> > has meant developing in old ASP.... like playing with Duplos compared
> > to Struts.
> >
> > I have been spending some time learning the .NET framework. So far it
> > looks great... er, the features that look like Java look great. But
> > then, why wouldn't I just use the more open, polished,
> > community-oriented, original... Java? So now to the point... I don't
> > have a choice for some projects... I have to use .NET.
> >
> > I am curious if anyone is aware of an MVC-type framework for .NET. I
> > am NOT looking for a Struts port to .NET. I started doing a little
> > research, searching for things like "Best Practices" or ".NET
> > Patterns" etc. I found almost nothing... no best practices guides. Not
> > even a single recommendation about builing Object-based backend
> > systems. In fact, most books I've read on ASP.NET and .NET in general
> > have focused on database access code directly in the ASPX page
> > itself....(in the "Code Behind" section).
> >
> > Am I:
> >
> > 1) Naive to not notice that Java Enterprise developers are light-years
> > ahead of MS developers in terms of programming practices, design
> > patterns, and role separation?
> >
> > 2) Mistaken? There really are MVC frameworks in .NET... but they are
> > all internal... and no community oriented projects exist.
> >
> > Thanks for the input.
> >
> > Aaron Longwell
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: struts-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: struts-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> >
>
>
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>
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Re: [OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???
Posted by Aaron Longwell <li...@newmedialogic.com>.
Whoa... MS Has released J#... that would be .NET Java.
Anybody used this? Maybe I could just build an app with struts... then
copy the Business/Data Tier code to a .NET app in J#.
Is J# code compatible with REAL java?
Aaron Longwell wrote:
> I hope I don't start a huge debate....
>
> with that intro, here goes.
>
> I am a freelance web developer. I've been struggling lately with not
> being able to use the Struts framework on ALL projects. Specifically,
> I do work with a number of Microsoft Devotees. For several sites, this
> has meant developing in old ASP.... like playing with Duplos compared
> to Struts.
>
> I have been spending some time learning the .NET framework. So far it
> looks great... er, the features that look like Java look great. But
> then, why wouldn't I just use the more open, polished,
> community-oriented, original... Java? So now to the point... I don't
> have a choice for some projects... I have to use .NET.
>
> I am curious if anyone is aware of an MVC-type framework for .NET. I
> am NOT looking for a Struts port to .NET. I started doing a little
> research, searching for things like "Best Practices" or ".NET
> Patterns" etc. I found almost nothing... no best practices guides. Not
> even a single recommendation about builing Object-based backend
> systems. In fact, most books I've read on ASP.NET and .NET in general
> have focused on database access code directly in the ASPX page
> itself....(in the "Code Behind" section).
>
> Am I:
>
> 1) Naive to not notice that Java Enterprise developers are light-years
> ahead of MS developers in terms of programming practices, design
> patterns, and role separation?
>
> 2) Mistaken? There really are MVC frameworks in .NET... but they are
> all internal... and no community oriented projects exist.
>
> Thanks for the input.
>
> Aaron Longwell
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: struts-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: struts-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
>
> .
>
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Re: [OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???
Posted by Aaron Longwell <li...@newmedialogic.com>.
My jaw dropped when I read the headline on this page.... I haven't read
the article yet.
From our short discussion, I think my first theory was right:
"1) Naive to not notice that Java Enterprise developers are light-years
ahead of MS developers in terms of programming practices, design
patterns, and role separation?"
I have numerous friends who are dedicated Microsoft developers.... none
of them have ever considered developing with SharpDevelop
(http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/Default.aspx).. and very few
know or use online resources (mailing lists, forums, etc).
So here's my conclusion. MS Developers are interested in Best Practices
techniques and many probably use an MVC-type design for their apps. They
just don't talk about it. That brings me to the most compelling argument
for using Java over .NET (and using Linux over Windows for that matter):
The community of developers/admins/etc.
With Java, you don't need to spend millions to go visit TechNet
conferences... you still can if your company is so inclined... but
there's way more interaction happening online... Interaction that
eventually turns into things like Model 2, Struts, etc.
Alen Ribic wrote:
>MVC and ASP.NET
>some resource.
>http://msdn.microsoft.com/architecture/patterns/ImpMVCinASP/default.aspx
>
>--Alen
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Aaron Longwell" <li...@newmedialogic.com>
>To: "Struts-User" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
>Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 7:09 AM
>Subject: [OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???
>
>
>
>
>>I hope I don't start a huge debate....
>>
>>with that intro, here goes.
>>
>>I am a freelance web developer. I've been struggling lately with not
>>being able to use the Struts framework on ALL projects. Specifically, I
>>do work with a number of Microsoft Devotees. For several sites, this has
>>meant developing in old ASP.... like playing with Duplos compared to
>>
>>
>Struts.
>
>
>>I have been spending some time learning the .NET framework. So far it
>>looks great... er, the features that look like Java look great. But
>>then, why wouldn't I just use the more open, polished,
>>community-oriented, original... Java? So now to the point... I don't
>>have a choice for some projects... I have to use .NET.
>>
>>I am curious if anyone is aware of an MVC-type framework for .NET. I am
>>NOT looking for a Struts port to .NET. I started doing a little
>>research, searching for things like "Best Practices" or ".NET Patterns"
>>etc. I found almost nothing... no best practices guides. Not even a
>>single recommendation about builing Object-based backend systems. In
>>fact, most books I've read on ASP.NET and .NET in general have focused
>>on database access code directly in the ASPX page itself....(in the
>>"Code Behind" section).
>>
>>Am I:
>>
>>1) Naive to not notice that Java Enterprise developers are light-years
>>ahead of MS developers in terms of programming practices, design
>>patterns, and role separation?
>>
>>2) Mistaken? There really are MVC frameworks in .NET... but they are all
>>internal... and no community oriented projects exist.
>>
>>Thanks for the input.
>>
>>Aaron Longwell
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: struts-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: struts-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: struts-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: [OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???
Posted by Mark Lowe <ma...@talk21.com>.
Sorry I'm bored with this whole Microsoft subject...
If you want to waste your money and only deploy of windows thats your
look out.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/usergroups/find.asp
On Friday, Jun 13, 2003, at 10:09 Europe/London, Alen Ribic wrote:
> MVC and ASP.NET
> some resource.
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/architecture/patterns/ImpMVCinASP/
> default.aspx
>
> --Alen
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Aaron Longwell" <li...@newmedialogic.com>
> To: "Struts-User" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 7:09 AM
> Subject: [OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???
>
>
>> I hope I don't start a huge debate....
>>
>> with that intro, here goes.
>>
>> I am a freelance web developer. I've been struggling lately with not
>> being able to use the Struts framework on ALL projects. Specifically,
>> I
>> do work with a number of Microsoft Devotees. For several sites, this
>> has
>> meant developing in old ASP.... like playing with Duplos compared to
> Struts.
>>
>> I have been spending some time learning the .NET framework. So far it
>> looks great... er, the features that look like Java look great. But
>> then, why wouldn't I just use the more open, polished,
>> community-oriented, original... Java? So now to the point... I don't
>> have a choice for some projects... I have to use .NET.
>>
>> I am curious if anyone is aware of an MVC-type framework for .NET. I
>> am
>> NOT looking for a Struts port to .NET. I started doing a little
>> research, searching for things like "Best Practices" or ".NET
>> Patterns"
>> etc. I found almost nothing... no best practices guides. Not even a
>> single recommendation about builing Object-based backend systems. In
>> fact, most books I've read on ASP.NET and .NET in general have focused
>> on database access code directly in the ASPX page itself....(in the
>> "Code Behind" section).
>>
>> Am I:
>>
>> 1) Naive to not notice that Java Enterprise developers are light-years
>> ahead of MS developers in terms of programming practices, design
>> patterns, and role separation?
>>
>> 2) Mistaken? There really are MVC frameworks in .NET... but they are
>> all
>> internal... and no community oriented projects exist.
>>
>> Thanks for the input.
>>
>> Aaron Longwell
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: struts-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: struts-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: struts-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: struts-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
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Re: [OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???
Posted by Alen Ribic <al...@mweb.co.za>.
MVC and ASP.NET
some resource.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/architecture/patterns/ImpMVCinASP/default.aspx
--Alen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron Longwell" <li...@newmedialogic.com>
To: "Struts-User" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 7:09 AM
Subject: [OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???
> I hope I don't start a huge debate....
>
> with that intro, here goes.
>
> I am a freelance web developer. I've been struggling lately with not
> being able to use the Struts framework on ALL projects. Specifically, I
> do work with a number of Microsoft Devotees. For several sites, this has
> meant developing in old ASP.... like playing with Duplos compared to
Struts.
>
> I have been spending some time learning the .NET framework. So far it
> looks great... er, the features that look like Java look great. But
> then, why wouldn't I just use the more open, polished,
> community-oriented, original... Java? So now to the point... I don't
> have a choice for some projects... I have to use .NET.
>
> I am curious if anyone is aware of an MVC-type framework for .NET. I am
> NOT looking for a Struts port to .NET. I started doing a little
> research, searching for things like "Best Practices" or ".NET Patterns"
> etc. I found almost nothing... no best practices guides. Not even a
> single recommendation about builing Object-based backend systems. In
> fact, most books I've read on ASP.NET and .NET in general have focused
> on database access code directly in the ASPX page itself....(in the
> "Code Behind" section).
>
> Am I:
>
> 1) Naive to not notice that Java Enterprise developers are light-years
> ahead of MS developers in terms of programming practices, design
> patterns, and role separation?
>
> 2) Mistaken? There really are MVC frameworks in .NET... but they are all
> internal... and no community oriented projects exist.
>
> Thanks for the input.
>
> Aaron Longwell
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: struts-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: struts-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???
Posted by Aaron Longwell <li...@newmedialogic.com>.
Ted,
Thanks for the detailed info on .NET ports. Keep us posted on how you
like Maverick! I've downloaded the docs and code and I'll be taking a
look over the next few months. Not too sure what I think yet.
Aaron
Ted Husted wrote:
> > I am curious if anyone is aware of an MVC-type framework for .NET. I
> > am NOT looking for a Struts port to .NET. I started doing a little
> > research, searching for things like "Best Practices" or ".NET
> > Patterns" etc. I found almost nothing... no best practices guides.
> > Not even a single recommendation about builing Object-based backend
> > systems. In fact, most books I've read on ASP.NET and .NET in general
> > have focused on database access code directly in the ASPX page
> > itself....(in the "Code Behind" section).
>
> I'm in a similar boat. The department I'm working with is fairly far
> along (iteration 10 of 17) with a deployment of a application using
> Struts. Meanwhile, other departments in the enterprise are being put
> on .NET for new development. At some point, we may have to jump on the
> bandwagon and migrate our application too.
>
> Since we heard this train coming, we've been watching the .NET ports
> of some of our favorite components:
>
> Mavnet - Production/stable (final release 15/may/03).
> http://mavnet.sourceforge.net/
>
> NVelocity - Production/stable (version 0.4 shipped 10/jan/03).
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/nvelocity
>
> NHibernate - Alpha - Good start, but now awaiting release Hibernate 2
> (RC2 - 09/may/03).
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/nhibernate
>
> NUnit - Production/Stable - 2.0 02/oct/02 - new beta in active
> development
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/nunit/
>
> Log4Net - Production/Stable - 1.1.1 13/apr/02, 1.2 B7 06/may/03
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/log4net/
>
> NAnt - Beta - 0.8.2 23/apr/03
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/nant/
>
> NLucene - Beta - Shipped b2 16/jul/02, inactive since.
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/nlucene
>
> I toyed with the idea of porting Struts to .NET, but decided to give
> Maverick a fair shake first. (Why reinvent the wheel?) Maverick is
> very Struts-like, and my stuff should plug right in.
>
> My project's current iteration is scheduled to ship at the end of the
> month, at which point we're migrating to the Java Maverick (simply to
> put us in a better position for a jump to the .NET Maverick).
>
> This will be a bit of fun for me, since there are some things
> available in Struts that are not available in Maverick. But not so
> many, and most are already based on Commons packages. So, this will be
> a very nice proof-of-concept in adapting Struts-bred Commons
> pasckages, like the Validator, to another framework.
>
> This is my primary development contract now, but I have others for
> training and such that still use Struts, so I'll be using Maverick and
> Struts side-by-side for awhile.
>
> -Ted.
>
>
> Aaron Longwell wrote:
>
>> I hope I don't start a huge debate....
>>
>> with that intro, here goes.
>>
>> I am a freelance web developer. I've been struggling lately with not
>> being able to use the Struts framework on ALL projects. Specifically,
>> I do work with a number of Microsoft Devotees. For several sites,
>> this has meant developing in old ASP.... like playing with Duplos
>> compared to Struts.
>>
>> I have been spending some time learning the .NET framework. So far it
>> looks great... er, the features that look like Java look great. But
>> then, why wouldn't I just use the more open, polished,
>> community-oriented, original... Java? So now to the point... I don't
>> have a choice for some projects... I have to use .NET.
>>
>> I am curious if anyone is aware of an MVC-type framework for .NET. I
>> am NOT looking for a Struts port to .NET. I started doing a little
>> research, searching for things like "Best Practices" or ".NET
>> Patterns" etc. I found almost nothing... no best practices guides.
>> Not even a single recommendation about builing Object-based backend
>> systems. In fact, most books I've read on ASP.NET and .NET in general
>> have focused on database access code directly in the ASPX page
>> itself....(in the "Code Behind" section).
>>
>> Am I:
>>
>> 1) Naive to not notice that Java Enterprise developers are
>> light-years ahead of MS developers in terms of programming practices,
>> design patterns, and role separation?
>>
>> 2) Mistaken? There really are MVC frameworks in .NET... but they are
>> all internal... and no community oriented projects exist.
>>
>> Thanks for the input.
>>
>> Aaron Longwell
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: struts-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: struts-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
> I am curious if anyone is aware of an MVC-type framework for .NET. I
> am NOT looking for a Struts port to .NET. I started doing a little
> research, searching for things like "Best Practices" or ".NET
> Patterns" etc. I found almost nothing... no best practices guides.
> Not even a single recommendation about builing Object-based backend
> systems. In fact, most books I've read on ASP.NET and .NET in general
> have focused on database access code directly in the ASPX page
> itself....(in the "Code Behind" section).
I'm in a similar boat. The department I'm working with is fairly far
along (iteration 10 of 17) with a deployment of a application using
Struts. Meanwhile, other departments in the enterprise are being put on
.NET for new development. At some point, we may have to jump on the
bandwagon and migrate our application too.
Since we heard this train coming, we've been watching the .NET ports of
some of our favorite components:
Mavnet - Production/stable (final release 15/may/03).
http://mavnet.sourceforge.net/
NVelocity - Production/stable (version 0.4 shipped 10/jan/03).
http://sourceforge.net/projects/nvelocity
NHibernate - Alpha - Good start, but now awaiting release Hibernate 2
(RC2 - 09/may/03).
http://sourceforge.net/projects/nhibernate
NUnit - Production/Stable - 2.0 02/oct/02 - new beta in active development
http://sourceforge.net/projects/nunit/
Log4Net - Production/Stable - 1.1.1 13/apr/02, 1.2 B7 06/may/03
http://sourceforge.net/projects/log4net/
NAnt - Beta - 0.8.2 23/apr/03
http://sourceforge.net/projects/nant/
NLucene - Beta - Shipped b2 16/jul/02, inactive since.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/nlucene
I toyed with the idea of porting Struts to .NET, but decided to give
Maverick a fair shake first. (Why reinvent the wheel?) Maverick is very
Struts-like, and my stuff should plug right in.
My project's current iteration is scheduled to ship at the end of the
month, at which point we're migrating to the Java Maverick (simply to
put us in a better position for a jump to the .NET Maverick).
This will be a bit of fun for me, since there are some things available
in Struts that are not available in Maverick. But not so many, and most
are already based on Commons packages. So, this will be a very nice
proof-of-concept in adapting Struts-bred Commons pasckages, like the
Validator, to another framework.
This is my primary development contract now, but I have others for
training and such that still use Struts, so I'll be using Maverick and
Struts side-by-side for awhile.
-Ted.
Aaron Longwell wrote:
> I hope I don't start a huge debate....
>
> with that intro, here goes.
>
> I am a freelance web developer. I've been struggling lately with not
> being able to use the Struts framework on ALL projects. Specifically, I
> do work with a number of Microsoft Devotees. For several sites, this has
> meant developing in old ASP.... like playing with Duplos compared to
> Struts.
>
> I have been spending some time learning the .NET framework. So far it
> looks great... er, the features that look like Java look great. But
> then, why wouldn't I just use the more open, polished,
> community-oriented, original... Java? So now to the point... I don't
> have a choice for some projects... I have to use .NET.
>
> I am curious if anyone is aware of an MVC-type framework for .NET. I am
> NOT looking for a Struts port to .NET. I started doing a little
> research, searching for things like "Best Practices" or ".NET Patterns"
> etc. I found almost nothing... no best practices guides. Not even a
> single recommendation about builing Object-based backend systems. In
> fact, most books I've read on ASP.NET and .NET in general have focused
> on database access code directly in the ASPX page itself....(in the
> "Code Behind" section).
>
> Am I:
>
> 1) Naive to not notice that Java Enterprise developers are light-years
> ahead of MS developers in terms of programming practices, design
> patterns, and role separation?
>
> 2) Mistaken? There really are MVC frameworks in .NET... but they are all
> internal... and no community oriented projects exist.
>
> Thanks for the input.
>
> Aaron Longwell
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: struts-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: struts-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
--
Ted Husted,
Struts in Action <http://husted.com/struts/book.html>
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Re: [OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???
Posted by mailinglist <ml...@mangoosta.fr>.
> I am curious if anyone is aware of an MVC-type framework for .NET. I am
> NOT looking for a Struts port to .NET. I started doing a little
> research, searching for things like "Best Practices" or ".NET Patterns"
> etc. I found almost nothing... no best practices guides. Not even a
> single recommendation about builing Object-based backend systems. In
> fact, most books I've read on ASP.NET and .NET in general have focused
> on database access code directly in the ASPX page itself....(in the
> "Code Behind" section).
you can have a look at the .NET petshop:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/architecture/default.aspx?pull=/library/en-us/dnbda/html/PetShop3x.asp
"The new .NET Pet Shop 3.0 incorporates community feedback with an improved
architecture that follows Microsoft Prescriptive Architecture Guidelines,
and will be benchmarked by the Middleware Company in June, 2003 to compare
with several J2EE implementations of the same application"
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Re: [OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???
Posted by Klaasjan Brand <kl...@topicus.nl>.
On Fri, 2003-06-13 at 07:09, Aaron Longwell wrote:
> 2) Mistaken? There really are MVC frameworks in .NET... but they are all
> internal... and no community oriented projects exist.
Well, there's maverick (mav.sourceforge.net); a Struts "competitor" MVC
framework which, although originally written in Java, has been ported to
.NET (and even PHP). No idea how far that port has progressed though..
--
Klaasjan Brand <kl...@topicus.nl>
Topicus B.V.
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Re: [OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???
Posted by Erik Price <ep...@ptc.com>.
Adam Hardy wrote:
> MVC is never used as a term in the Microsoft world that I know of.
But this makes complete sense, in a sick way. In a MS environment,
portability probably isn't as big a concern, and while there are
certainly other reasons to use MVC, it strikes me that the biggest is to
maintain abstractions between the various layers.
If you're a MS shop, you probably have SQL server, ASP and IIS -- and MS
has little interest in making it easy to change this. So why spend time
building up a MVC framework if you know that you're pretty much married
to certain technologies?
No thanks.
Erik
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Re: [OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???
Posted by Adam Hardy <ah...@cyberspaceroad.com>.
MVC is never used as a term in the Microsoft world that I know of. When
I was doing Microsoft stuff as well as java, up to the intro of .NET,
the architectural paradigm for building "best practice" apps was based
around the Microsoft Solutions Framework or MSF. You have to know all
about that to get the MSCD in "Analyzing Requirements and Defining
Solution Architectures".
I still have the MSCD training kit book for the exam, while I've sold
all the rest of my VB, MTS, COM & ASP books. It's got alot of useful
principles / patterns in it.
I might have changed since .NET hit the streets though. I dumped
Microsoft rather than learn .NET, in order to concentrate on Java, which
is huge enough without wanting to keep up to date on the MS stuff as well.
Adam
Aaron Longwell wrote:
> I hope I don't start a huge debate....
>
> with that intro, here goes.
>
> I am a freelance web developer. I've been struggling lately with not
> being able to use the Struts framework on ALL projects. Specifically, I
> do work with a number of Microsoft Devotees. For several sites, this has
> meant developing in old ASP.... like playing with Duplos compared to
> Struts.
>
> I have been spending some time learning the .NET framework. So far it
> looks great... er, the features that look like Java look great. But
> then, why wouldn't I just use the more open, polished,
> community-oriented, original... Java? So now to the point... I don't
> have a choice for some projects... I have to use .NET.
>
> I am curious if anyone is aware of an MVC-type framework for .NET. I am
> NOT looking for a Struts port to .NET. I started doing a little
> research, searching for things like "Best Practices" or ".NET Patterns"
> etc. I found almost nothing... no best practices guides. Not even a
> single recommendation about builing Object-based backend systems. In
> fact, most books I've read on ASP.NET and .NET in general have focused
> on database access code directly in the ASPX page itself....(in the
> "Code Behind" section).
>
> Am I:
>
> 1) Naive to not notice that Java Enterprise developers are light-years
> ahead of MS developers in terms of programming practices, design
> patterns, and role separation?
>
> 2) Mistaken? There really are MVC frameworks in .NET... but they are all
> internal... and no community oriented projects exist.
>
> Thanks for the input.
>
> Aaron Longwell
>
>
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>
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Re: [OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???
Posted by Alen Ribic <al...@mweb.co.za>.
Ye, and you can call it .NUTS design pattern. :)
(just jokes 'couse)
--Alen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brandon Goodin" <ma...@phase.ws>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <st...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 9:45 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???
> I think you should build the .NET version of Struts and call it what I
> suggested as a joke in an earlier post.... ".NUTS".
>
> Brandon Goodin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Aaron Longwell [mailto:listservs@newmedialogic.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 11:09 PM
> To: Struts-User
> Subject: [OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???
>
>
> I hope I don't start a huge debate....
>
> with that intro, here goes.
>
> I am a freelance web developer. I've been struggling lately with not
> being able to use the Struts framework on ALL projects. Specifically, I
> do work with a number of Microsoft Devotees. For several sites, this has
> meant developing in old ASP.... like playing with Duplos compared to
Struts.
>
> I have been spending some time learning the .NET framework. So far it
> looks great... er, the features that look like Java look great. But
> then, why wouldn't I just use the more open, polished,
> community-oriented, original... Java? So now to the point... I don't
> have a choice for some projects... I have to use .NET.
>
> I am curious if anyone is aware of an MVC-type framework for .NET. I am
> NOT looking for a Struts port to .NET. I started doing a little
> research, searching for things like "Best Practices" or ".NET Patterns"
> etc. I found almost nothing... no best practices guides. Not even a
> single recommendation about builing Object-based backend systems. In
> fact, most books I've read on ASP.NET and .NET in general have focused
> on database access code directly in the ASPX page itself....(in the
> "Code Behind" section).
>
> Am I:
>
> 1) Naive to not notice that Java Enterprise developers are light-years
> ahead of MS developers in terms of programming practices, design
> patterns, and role separation?
>
> 2) Mistaken? There really are MVC frameworks in .NET... but they are all
> internal... and no community oriented projects exist.
>
> Thanks for the input.
>
> Aaron Longwell
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: struts-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: struts-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
>
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RE: [OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???
Posted by Brandon Goodin <ma...@phase.ws>.
I think you should build the .NET version of Struts and call it what I
suggested as a joke in an earlier post.... ".NUTS".
Brandon Goodin
-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Longwell [mailto:listservs@newmedialogic.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 11:09 PM
To: Struts-User
Subject: [OT] MVC / Model 2 for Microsoft ???
I hope I don't start a huge debate....
with that intro, here goes.
I am a freelance web developer. I've been struggling lately with not
being able to use the Struts framework on ALL projects. Specifically, I
do work with a number of Microsoft Devotees. For several sites, this has
meant developing in old ASP.... like playing with Duplos compared to Struts.
I have been spending some time learning the .NET framework. So far it
looks great... er, the features that look like Java look great. But
then, why wouldn't I just use the more open, polished,
community-oriented, original... Java? So now to the point... I don't
have a choice for some projects... I have to use .NET.
I am curious if anyone is aware of an MVC-type framework for .NET. I am
NOT looking for a Struts port to .NET. I started doing a little
research, searching for things like "Best Practices" or ".NET Patterns"
etc. I found almost nothing... no best practices guides. Not even a
single recommendation about builing Object-based backend systems. In
fact, most books I've read on ASP.NET and .NET in general have focused
on database access code directly in the ASPX page itself....(in the
"Code Behind" section).
Am I:
1) Naive to not notice that Java Enterprise developers are light-years
ahead of MS developers in terms of programming practices, design
patterns, and role separation?
2) Mistaken? There really are MVC frameworks in .NET... but they are all
internal... and no community oriented projects exist.
Thanks for the input.
Aaron Longwell
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