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Posted to dev@isis.apache.org by Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> on 2010/11/26 00:15:15 UTC
skype conf call write-up...
Somewhat belatedly, just capturing a few notes from the skype conf call
that took place last Thu (crikey ... a week ago!)
On the call:
- Siegfried Goeschl (mentor)
- Mark Struberg (mentor)
- Robert Matthews (committer)
- Dan Haywood (committer)
- Kevin Meyer (committer)
- Alexander Krasnukhin (committer)
- Dave Slaughter (committer)
- Mohammad Nour El-Din (committer)
- Mike Burton
- Vango Stavro
- Robert van Poelgeest
Robert gave some background on the history of Naked Objects, and also
stated he recognised that what had been "his baby" was now under the
stewardship of the community, and he was looking forward to being a part
of that (I'm probably paraphrasing this badly ... Rob stated it somewhat
better on the call, I think).
For my part, I echoed Rob's sentiments (both for my commits to the NOF
codebase and of course my own sister projects).
We then went around the "table" and introduced ourselves. Sorry, I
didn't take detailed notes, but my impression (and from following mails
on isis-dev) was that this was really worthwhile, and helped the
community feel like, well, a community.
I then did a screenshare to the call, and did a run-through of the key
elements of the architecture: core, defaults, alternatives, viewer; and
referencing JSR-299 for the terminology of "defaults" and "alternatives"
(we're hoping to refactor towards JSR-299 during incubation). I also
described the different builds supported: mvn clean install and mvn
site-deploy, x-refing the wiki for details.
We also talking briefly about the fact that we'll need to decide on a
v0.1 release, what's to go into it, and when to aim for. I promised to
put some posts on the ML about this (which I've still to do).
Cheers
Dan
Re: skype conf call write-up...
Posted by Bernd Fondermann <be...@googlemail.com>.
On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 13:36, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Bernd,
> Do hear your concerns, and have been following the discussions on general
> too.
>
> I don't really want to respond in detail, other than to say that (4 out of
> 5) mentors are involved
> and we have a lot of trust in our mentors to help ensure we do the right
> thing.
>
> I do have one practical question, within...
>
>
> On 26/11/2010 11:47, Bernd Fondermann wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>> At open source projects, committers typically
>> represent less than 10% of the community, as you can derive from
>> mailing list subscriber numbers.
>>
> This would be a good metric to track, because I suspect we are a long way
> from that ratio. Indeed, when we do get to that ratio, it might be good
> evidence of being ready to graduate.
>
> So, my practical question is: is there an easy way to see the subscriber
> numbers?
Yep. ML moderators have access to these numbers. Pls. see
http://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mail
Also, this info is publicly accessible at
http://pulse.apache.org/
> Perhaps this is one for our mentors to answer, though ;-)?
Yep - or any other person carrying that knowledge. :-)
Bernd
Re: skype conf call write-up...
Posted by Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com>.
Hi Bernd,
Do hear your concerns, and have been following the discussions on
general too.
I don't really want to respond in detail, other than to say that (4 out
of 5) mentors are involved
and we have a lot of trust in our mentors to help ensure we do the right
thing.
I do have one practical question, within...
On 26/11/2010 11:47, Bernd Fondermann wrote:
> [snip]
> At open source projects, committers typically
> represent less than 10% of the community, as you can derive from
> mailing list subscriber numbers.
>
This would be a good metric to track, because I suspect we are a long
way from that ratio. Indeed, when we do get to that ratio, it might be
good evidence of being ready to graduate.
So, my practical question is: is there an easy way to see the subscriber
numbers?
Perhaps this is one for our mentors to answer, though ;-)?
Thx
Dan
Re: skype conf call write-up...
Posted by Mohammad Nour El-Din <no...@gmail.com>.
Ooops, sorry and I apologize to the 3 of them :)
On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 26/11/2010 12:28, Mohammad Nour El-Din wrote:
>>
>> _not_true_, again the call was announced on isis-dev@ and there has
>> been a vote for the best time that suits all of us, and again guess
>> what all of the members involved in the project attended the call and
>> even more, 2 new interested members attended also and they all enjoyed
>> the call very much ...
>
> 3, actually ... Mike, Vango and Rob vP ;-)
>
> Cheers
> Dan
>
>
>
>
--
Thanks
- Mohammad Nour
Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User Guide)
http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
- LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
- Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
----
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
- Albert Einstein
"Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
than your best."
- Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
"Stay hungry, stay foolish."
- Steve Jobs
Re: skype conf call write-up...
Posted by Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com>.
On 26/11/2010 12:28, Mohammad Nour El-Din wrote:
>
> _not_true_, again the call was announced on isis-dev@ and there has
> been a vote for the best time that suits all of us, and again guess
> what all of the members involved in the project attended the call and
> even more, 2 new interested members attended also and they all enjoyed
> the call very much ...
3, actually ... Mike, Vango and Rob vP ;-)
Cheers
Dan
Re: skype conf call write-up...
Posted by Mohammad Nour El-Din <no...@gmail.com>.
:P
On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 5:24 PM, Bernd Fondermann
<be...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 15:40, Mohammad Nour El-Din
> <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Bernd Fondermann
>> <be...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 13:28, Mohammad Nour El-Din
>>>> I am sorry if the tone of the e-mail might seem defensive but, the
>>>> issue could be handled in much simpler way than all that talking
>>>> happened.
>>>
>>> How? Shutting up?
>> No but you could ask mentors to do that as they already know what is
>> going on in Isis :).
>
> Nah, I'm not listening anyway ;-)
>
> Enjoy Incubation,
>
> Bernd
>
--
Thanks
- Mohammad Nour
Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User Guide)
http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
- LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
- Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
----
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
- Albert Einstein
"Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
than your best."
- Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
"Stay hungry, stay foolish."
- Steve Jobs
Re: skype conf call write-up...
Posted by Bernd Fondermann <be...@googlemail.com>.
On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 15:40, Mohammad Nour El-Din
<no...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Bernd Fondermann
> <be...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 13:28, Mohammad Nour El-Din
>>> I am sorry if the tone of the e-mail might seem defensive but, the
>>> issue could be handled in much simpler way than all that talking
>>> happened.
>>
>> How? Shutting up?
> No but you could ask mentors to do that as they already know what is
> going on in Isis :).
Nah, I'm not listening anyway ;-)
Enjoy Incubation,
Bernd
Re: skype conf call write-up...
Posted by Mohammad Nour El-Din <no...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Bernd Fondermann
<be...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 13:28, Mohammad Nour El-Din
> <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Bernd...
>>
>> Although the "Skype call worries" thing has taken a lot of time
>> discussing only _some_fears_ of_things_that_might_happen_, but your
>> comments showed that you didn't understand what the call was about
>> _at_all_, please read my comments below:
>
> I can only judge from what I read from the post, thanks for clearing things up.
>
>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Bernd Fondermann
>> <be...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> As I said on the incubator-general list, I think having conference
>>> calls for incubating projects or Apache projects in general is not an
>>> overwhelmingly good idea. More details inline.
>> Totally disagree with you, take for example IRC is one real-time
>> communication tool that has been so useful, not only for committers
>> but also for users and other people interested in digging into more
>> details about something and when they need it fast, this happens a lot
>> in OpenEJB, and guess what users really appreciate that a lot,
>> actually we gained one more committer because of this and he has been
>> so active since.
>
> I don't think IRC is helpful at all, and I detest reading IRC logs,
> but in general I don't disagree with you.
> I specifically commented on skype and I am aware of the fact that
> others think it's helpful - now that's where I think they are wrong.
>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 00:15, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Somewhat belatedly, just capturing a few notes from the skype conf call that
>>>> took place last Thu (crikey ... a week ago!)
>>>>
>>> <snip/>
>>>>
>>>> We then went around the "table" and introduced ourselves. Sorry, I didn't
>>>> take detailed notes, but my impression (and from following mails on
>>>> isis-dev) was that this was really worthwhile, and helped the community feel
>>>> like, well, a community.
>>>
>>> Except that for those not on the call, we now feel like not being part
>>> of the community.
>>> The community is here on-list and includes those lurkers and users not
>>> actively participating. At open source projects, committers typically
>>> represent less than 10% of the community, as you can derive from
>>> mailing list subscriber numbers.
>> _not_true_, again the call was announced on isis-dev@ and there has
>> been a vote for the best time that suits all of us, and again guess
>> what all of the members involved in the project attended the call and
>> even more, 2 new interested members attended also and they all enjoyed
>> the call very much and they had a boost in the project which helped
>> them get into the same picture as the rest of the team almost in no
>> time. And tell you what, opensource is about doing the best you can to
>> the project you love, take for example OpenEJB most of the time I have
>> to wake up till 4 or 5 or even 6am so I can catch with other
>> OpenEJBers living in USA, w/ no complain cause this is the way chose
>> and this is what I love to offer to the project I love, opensource is
>> about passion to join what you really find yourself in, it is not a
>> job, and people when they join such projects with people working in
>> different time zones, they know in advance that there will be
>> sometimes they will miss a meeting or two as long as they can catch
>> that later through an e-mail sent to brief the call or issues
>> discussed are detailed on the Wiki, which happened in our case.
>
> What are you trying to say here? You're pointing out the disadvantages
> of how OpenEJB deals with working together and you personally chose to
> live with them - while others won't. That's the committers in OpenEJB
> you won't ever get on board.
You missed my point here, what I am saying is it happens that people
miss something here or there even if it is mentioned on the ML, it
also happens in companies where different people working in different
time zones, some of these people would have to catch call every once
and a while which can be too early or too late, and they do it because
of business needs, but here it is done with delight cause they like
what they do. Also the call is gonna be once/month and hence people
will have much of be prepared for it and the time and date will be
known in advance and also voted on, again they will do it with delight
cause they like what they do, that is what I tried to explain :).
>
>>>> I then did a screenshare to the call, and did a run-through of the key
>>>> elements of the architecture: core, defaults, alternatives, viewer; and
>>>> referencing JSR-299 for the terminology of "defaults" and "alternatives"
>>>> (we're hoping to refactor towards JSR-299 during incubation).
>>>
>>> Wow, this seems to be pretty important stuff for anyone interested in
>>> the project. Where can I find that information? In the ML archives? On
>>> the website? (Sorry, I'm new to the project.)
>> Yes it is on the mailing list, and it seems you didn't give it
>> sometime to read the mailing list at all, or even better, as having
>> the opensource spirit, you could have replied to that e-mail asking
>> Dan or anyone of us sending what ever info you missed and all of us
>> would be more than delighted to help and get you into the picture with
>> us, but seems again you are only trying the easy way complaining which
>> is not open-source nor Apache spirit at all.
>
> That's exactly what I did - asking for a place to find the info.
> What's wrong with that?
> I can't see me complaining in this specific quote-
>
>>Again I will take OpenEJB
>> as an example, most if not all of the information are in mailing lists
>> or on the Wiki, but sometimes people are new to Apache and they get
>> lost where to find what they want, but instead of complaining they ask
>> for help and help they have with delight from every and each member of
>> OpenEJB.
>>>
>>>>I also
>>>> described the different builds supported: mvn clean install and mvn
>>>> site-deploy, x-refing the wiki for details.
>>>>
>>>> We also talking briefly about the fact that we'll need to decide on a v0.1
>>>> release, what's to go into it, and when to aim for. I promised to put some
>>>> posts on the ML about this (which I've still to do).
>>>
>>> Releasing is a pretty important aspect for any project. Time would
>>> have been spent much better posting to the ML directly instead of
>>> discussing it on skype and then waiting a week until posting.
>> Again _wrong_, what we discussed in the call is just that we raised
>> the issue, we didn't get into details, which took Dan to collect such
>> details and then discuss it _on_the_mailing_list_publicly_ cause such
>> details can't live in calls only, which is one regulation we
>> understand and respect and follow.
>
> The statement I was referring to could have been read otherwise. But
> you have now clarified that, thanks.
>
>>> As was emphasized elsewhere, off-list communication is not forbidden
>>> and it will happen - as a matter of fact. I just want to point out its
>>> disadvantages.
>> Sorry Bernd, with all the respect I have to you, I disagree with you
>> about the "pointing out" this, it can't be this way, also IMHO it
>> should be through mentors of this project which is an educational
>> point in itself so new people to Apache can understand how things are
>> going.
>
> No. The PMC is tasked with bringing the podling into the foundation,
> not the mentors. The mentors are just a means to ensure there are
> enough eyeballs for every podling.
> Everybody is free to publicly state his point of view. Thanks for
> tolerating that, even if you disagree.
>
>> I am sorry if the tone of the e-mail might seem defensive but, the
>> issue could be handled in much simpler way than all that talking
>> happened.
>
> How? Shutting up?
No but you could ask mentors to do that as they already know what is
going on in Isis :).
>
> Bernd
>
--
Thanks
- Mohammad Nour
Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User Guide)
http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
- LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
- Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
----
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
- Albert Einstein
"Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
than your best."
- Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
"Stay hungry, stay foolish."
- Steve Jobs
Re: skype conf call write-up...
Posted by Bernd Fondermann <be...@googlemail.com>.
On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 13:28, Mohammad Nour El-Din
<no...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Bernd...
>
> Although the "Skype call worries" thing has taken a lot of time
> discussing only _some_fears_ of_things_that_might_happen_, but your
> comments showed that you didn't understand what the call was about
> _at_all_, please read my comments below:
I can only judge from what I read from the post, thanks for clearing things up.
> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Bernd Fondermann
> <be...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> As I said on the incubator-general list, I think having conference
>> calls for incubating projects or Apache projects in general is not an
>> overwhelmingly good idea. More details inline.
> Totally disagree with you, take for example IRC is one real-time
> communication tool that has been so useful, not only for committers
> but also for users and other people interested in digging into more
> details about something and when they need it fast, this happens a lot
> in OpenEJB, and guess what users really appreciate that a lot,
> actually we gained one more committer because of this and he has been
> so active since.
I don't think IRC is helpful at all, and I detest reading IRC logs,
but in general I don't disagree with you.
I specifically commented on skype and I am aware of the fact that
others think it's helpful - now that's where I think they are wrong.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 00:15, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Somewhat belatedly, just capturing a few notes from the skype conf call that
>>> took place last Thu (crikey ... a week ago!)
>>>
>> <snip/>
>>>
>>> We then went around the "table" and introduced ourselves. Sorry, I didn't
>>> take detailed notes, but my impression (and from following mails on
>>> isis-dev) was that this was really worthwhile, and helped the community feel
>>> like, well, a community.
>>
>> Except that for those not on the call, we now feel like not being part
>> of the community.
>> The community is here on-list and includes those lurkers and users not
>> actively participating. At open source projects, committers typically
>> represent less than 10% of the community, as you can derive from
>> mailing list subscriber numbers.
> _not_true_, again the call was announced on isis-dev@ and there has
> been a vote for the best time that suits all of us, and again guess
> what all of the members involved in the project attended the call and
> even more, 2 new interested members attended also and they all enjoyed
> the call very much and they had a boost in the project which helped
> them get into the same picture as the rest of the team almost in no
> time. And tell you what, opensource is about doing the best you can to
> the project you love, take for example OpenEJB most of the time I have
> to wake up till 4 or 5 or even 6am so I can catch with other
> OpenEJBers living in USA, w/ no complain cause this is the way chose
> and this is what I love to offer to the project I love, opensource is
> about passion to join what you really find yourself in, it is not a
> job, and people when they join such projects with people working in
> different time zones, they know in advance that there will be
> sometimes they will miss a meeting or two as long as they can catch
> that later through an e-mail sent to brief the call or issues
> discussed are detailed on the Wiki, which happened in our case.
What are you trying to say here? You're pointing out the disadvantages
of how OpenEJB deals with working together and you personally chose to
live with them - while others won't. That's the committers in OpenEJB
you won't ever get on board.
>>> I then did a screenshare to the call, and did a run-through of the key
>>> elements of the architecture: core, defaults, alternatives, viewer; and
>>> referencing JSR-299 for the terminology of "defaults" and "alternatives"
>>> (we're hoping to refactor towards JSR-299 during incubation).
>>
>> Wow, this seems to be pretty important stuff for anyone interested in
>> the project. Where can I find that information? In the ML archives? On
>> the website? (Sorry, I'm new to the project.)
> Yes it is on the mailing list, and it seems you didn't give it
> sometime to read the mailing list at all, or even better, as having
> the opensource spirit, you could have replied to that e-mail asking
> Dan or anyone of us sending what ever info you missed and all of us
> would be more than delighted to help and get you into the picture with
> us, but seems again you are only trying the easy way complaining which
> is not open-source nor Apache spirit at all.
That's exactly what I did - asking for a place to find the info.
What's wrong with that?
I can't see me complaining in this specific quote-
>Again I will take OpenEJB
> as an example, most if not all of the information are in mailing lists
> or on the Wiki, but sometimes people are new to Apache and they get
> lost where to find what they want, but instead of complaining they ask
> for help and help they have with delight from every and each member of
> OpenEJB.
>>
>>>I also
>>> described the different builds supported: mvn clean install and mvn
>>> site-deploy, x-refing the wiki for details.
>>>
>>> We also talking briefly about the fact that we'll need to decide on a v0.1
>>> release, what's to go into it, and when to aim for. I promised to put some
>>> posts on the ML about this (which I've still to do).
>>
>> Releasing is a pretty important aspect for any project. Time would
>> have been spent much better posting to the ML directly instead of
>> discussing it on skype and then waiting a week until posting.
> Again _wrong_, what we discussed in the call is just that we raised
> the issue, we didn't get into details, which took Dan to collect such
> details and then discuss it _on_the_mailing_list_publicly_ cause such
> details can't live in calls only, which is one regulation we
> understand and respect and follow.
The statement I was referring to could have been read otherwise. But
you have now clarified that, thanks.
>> As was emphasized elsewhere, off-list communication is not forbidden
>> and it will happen - as a matter of fact. I just want to point out its
>> disadvantages.
> Sorry Bernd, with all the respect I have to you, I disagree with you
> about the "pointing out" this, it can't be this way, also IMHO it
> should be through mentors of this project which is an educational
> point in itself so new people to Apache can understand how things are
> going.
No. The PMC is tasked with bringing the podling into the foundation,
not the mentors. The mentors are just a means to ensure there are
enough eyeballs for every podling.
Everybody is free to publicly state his point of view. Thanks for
tolerating that, even if you disagree.
> I am sorry if the tone of the e-mail might seem defensive but, the
> issue could be handled in much simpler way than all that talking
> happened.
How? Shutting up?
Bernd
Re: skype conf call write-up...
Posted by Mohammad Nour El-Din <no...@gmail.com>.
OK, all members, except James, but you knew about it in advance
nothing gone in secrete and IMO we can't cancel the whole vote cause
only one member could not attend, provided that what has been
discussed will go on the ML at the end, and as I said, for each call
there will be a vote and IMO instead of not voting at all you could
have proposed a new time and see what will be the replies on it might
work with us all, the blamed one here is you :D for not proposing a
new time and date that suites you and also might suite others as well
:D.
On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 3:05 PM, James Carman
<ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 7:28 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
> <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> _not_true_, again the call was announced on isis-dev@ and there has
>> been a vote for the best time that suits all of us, and again guess
>> what all of the members involved in the project attended the call
>
> _not_true_, I did not attend the call. I didn't "vote" on the time
> because none of the proposed times worked for me (even though I have a
> pretty open schedule) and I didn't want to stand in the way.
>
--
Thanks
- Mohammad Nour
Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User Guide)
http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
- LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
- Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
----
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
- Albert Einstein
"Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
than your best."
- Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
"Stay hungry, stay foolish."
- Steve Jobs
Re: skype conf call write-up...
Posted by James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com>.
On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 7:28 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
<no...@gmail.com> wrote:
> _not_true_, again the call was announced on isis-dev@ and there has
> been a vote for the best time that suits all of us, and again guess
> what all of the members involved in the project attended the call
_not_true_, I did not attend the call. I didn't "vote" on the time
because none of the proposed times worked for me (even though I have a
pretty open schedule) and I didn't want to stand in the way.
Re: skype conf call write-up...
Posted by Mohammad Nour El-Din <no...@gmail.com>.
Hi Bernd...
Although the "Skype call worries" thing has taken a lot of time
discussing only _some_fears_ of_things_that_might_happen_, but your
comments showed that you didn't understand what the call was about
_at_all_, please read my comments below:
On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 1:47 PM, Bernd Fondermann
<be...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> As I said on the incubator-general list, I think having conference
> calls for incubating projects or Apache projects in general is not an
> overwhelmingly good idea. More details inline.
Totally disagree with you, take for example IRC is one real-time
communication tool that has been so useful, not only for committers
but also for users and other people interested in digging into more
details about something and when they need it fast, this happens a lot
in OpenEJB, and guess what users really appreciate that a lot,
actually we gained one more committer because of this and he has been
so active since.
>
> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 00:15, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Somewhat belatedly, just capturing a few notes from the skype conf call that
>> took place last Thu (crikey ... a week ago!)
>>
> <snip/>
>>
>> We then went around the "table" and introduced ourselves. Sorry, I didn't
>> take detailed notes, but my impression (and from following mails on
>> isis-dev) was that this was really worthwhile, and helped the community feel
>> like, well, a community.
>
> Except that for those not on the call, we now feel like not being part
> of the community.
> The community is here on-list and includes those lurkers and users not
> actively participating. At open source projects, committers typically
> represent less than 10% of the community, as you can derive from
> mailing list subscriber numbers.
_not_true_, again the call was announced on isis-dev@ and there has
been a vote for the best time that suits all of us, and again guess
what all of the members involved in the project attended the call and
even more, 2 new interested members attended also and they all enjoyed
the call very much and they had a boost in the project which helped
them get into the same picture as the rest of the team almost in no
time. And tell you what, opensource is about doing the best you can to
the project you love, take for example OpenEJB most of the time I have
to wake up till 4 or 5 or even 6am so I can catch with other
OpenEJBers living in USA, w/ no complain cause this is the way chose
and this is what I love to offer to the project I love, opensource is
about passion to join what you really find yourself in, it is not a
job, and people when they join such projects with people working in
different time zones, they know in advance that there will be
sometimes they will miss a meeting or two as long as they can catch
that later through an e-mail sent to brief the call or issues
discussed are detailed on the Wiki, which happened in our case.
>
>> I then did a screenshare to the call, and did a run-through of the key
>> elements of the architecture: core, defaults, alternatives, viewer; and
>> referencing JSR-299 for the terminology of "defaults" and "alternatives"
>> (we're hoping to refactor towards JSR-299 during incubation).
>
> Wow, this seems to be pretty important stuff for anyone interested in
> the project. Where can I find that information? In the ML archives? On
> the website? (Sorry, I'm new to the project.)
Yes it is on the mailing list, and it seems you didn't give it
sometime to read the mailing list at all, or even better, as having
the opensource spirit, you could have replied to that e-mail asking
Dan or anyone of us sending what ever info you missed and all of us
would be more than delighted to help and get you into the picture with
us, but seems again you are only trying the easy way complaining which
is not open-source nor Apache spirit at all. Again I will take OpenEJB
as an example, most if not all of the information are in mailing lists
or on the Wiki, but sometimes people are new to Apache and they get
lost where to find what they want, but instead of complaining they ask
for help and help they have with delight from every and each member of
OpenEJB.
>
>>I also
>> described the different builds supported: mvn clean install and mvn
>> site-deploy, x-refing the wiki for details.
>>
>> We also talking briefly about the fact that we'll need to decide on a v0.1
>> release, what's to go into it, and when to aim for. I promised to put some
>> posts on the ML about this (which I've still to do).
>
> Releasing is a pretty important aspect for any project. Time would
> have been spent much better posting to the ML directly instead of
> discussing it on skype and then waiting a week until posting.
Again _wrong_, what we discussed in the call is just that we raised
the issue, we didn't get into details, which took Dan to collect such
details and then discuss it _on_the_mailing_list_publicly_ cause such
details can't live in calls only, which is one regulation we
understand and respect and follow.
>
> As was emphasized elsewhere, off-list communication is not forbidden
> and it will happen - as a matter of fact. I just want to point out its
> disadvantages.
Sorry Bernd, with all the respect I have to you, I disagree with you
about the "pointing out" this, it can't be this way, also IMHO it
should be through mentors of this project which is an educational
point in itself so new people to Apache can understand how things are
going.
I am sorry if the tone of the e-mail might seem defensive but, the
issue could be handled in much simpler way than all that talking
happened.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bernd
>
--
Thanks
- Mohammad Nour
Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User Guide)
http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
- LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
- Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
----
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
- Albert Einstein
"Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
than your best."
- Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
"Stay hungry, stay foolish."
- Steve Jobs
Re: skype conf call write-up...
Posted by Mohammad Nour El-Din <no...@gmail.com>.
+1 @ Mark :)
On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 2:14 PM, Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de> wrote:
> bernd, there was really _not_ more content as in the transcript!
>
>> > I then did a screenshare to the call, and did a
>> run-through of the key
>> > elements of the architecture: core, defaults,
>> alternatives, viewer; and
>> > referencing JSR-299 for the terminology of "defaults"
>> and "alternatives"
>> > (we're hoping to refactor towards JSR-299 during
>> incubation).
>>
>> Wow, this seems to be pretty important stuff for anyone
>> interested in
>> the project. Where can I find that information? In the ML
>> archives? On
>> the website? (Sorry, I'm new to the project.)
>
> There are 2 books on this topic (Isis, NakedObjects). All what Dan did was to give us a brief interactive intro. But there are also public talks on this topic, e.g. Dan's Devoxx talk for which I posted a parleys link on the mailing list in the past already. All this information got already published on the list weeks ago...
> For the JSR-299 part: we just talked about what we could do and what kind of specced CDI functionality is available in general. Nothing which didn't already got covered on the list also ...
>
> So please lets not make an elephant from a fly :)
>
> LieGrue,
> strub
>
>
> --- On Fri, 11/26/10, Bernd Fondermann <be...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Bernd Fondermann <be...@googlemail.com>
>> Subject: Re: skype conf call write-up...
>> To: isis-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Date: Friday, November 26, 2010, 11:47 AM
>> Hi,
>>
>> As I said on the incubator-general list, I think having
>> conference
>> calls for incubating projects or Apache projects in general
>> is not an
>> overwhelmingly good idea. More details inline.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 00:15, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Somewhat belatedly, just capturing a few notes from
>> the skype conf call that
>> > took place last Thu (crikey ... a week ago!)
>> >
>> <snip/>
>> >
>> > We then went around the "table" and introduced
>> ourselves. Sorry, I didn't
>> > take detailed notes, but my impression (and from
>> following mails on
>> > isis-dev) was that this was really worthwhile, and
>> helped the community feel
>> > like, well, a community.
>>
>> Except that for those not on the call, we now feel like not
>> being part
>> of the community.
>> The community is here on-list and includes those lurkers
>> and users not
>> actively participating. At open source projects, committers
>> typically
>> represent less than 10% of the community, as you can derive
>> from
>> mailing list subscriber numbers.
>>
>> > I then did a screenshare to the call, and did a
>> run-through of the key
>> > elements of the architecture: core, defaults,
>> alternatives, viewer; and
>> > referencing JSR-299 for the terminology of "defaults"
>> and "alternatives"
>> > (we're hoping to refactor towards JSR-299 during
>> incubation).
>>
>> Wow, this seems to be pretty important stuff for anyone
>> interested in
>> the project. Where can I find that information? In the ML
>> archives? On
>> the website? (Sorry, I'm new to the project.)
>>
>> >I also
>> > described the different builds supported: mvn clean
>> install and mvn
>> > site-deploy, x-refing the wiki for details.
>> >
>> > We also talking briefly about the fact that we'll need
>> to decide on a v0.1
>> > release, what's to go into it, and when to aim for.
>> I promised to put some
>> > posts on the ML about this (which I've still to do).
>>
>> Releasing is a pretty important aspect for any project.
>> Time would
>> have been spent much better posting to the ML directly
>> instead of
>> discussing it on skype and then waiting a week until
>> posting.
>>
>> As was emphasized elsewhere, off-list communication is not
>> forbidden
>> and it will happen - as a matter of fact. I just want to
>> point out its
>> disadvantages.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Bernd
>>
>
>
>
>
--
Thanks
- Mohammad Nour
Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User Guide)
http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
- LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
- Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
----
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
- Albert Einstein
"Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
than your best."
- Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
"Stay hungry, stay foolish."
- Steve Jobs
Re: skype conf call write-up...
Posted by Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de>.
bernd, there was really _not_ more content as in the transcript!
> > I then did a screenshare to the call, and did a
> run-through of the key
> > elements of the architecture: core, defaults,
> alternatives, viewer; and
> > referencing JSR-299 for the terminology of "defaults"
> and "alternatives"
> > (we're hoping to refactor towards JSR-299 during
> incubation).
>
> Wow, this seems to be pretty important stuff for anyone
> interested in
> the project. Where can I find that information? In the ML
> archives? On
> the website? (Sorry, I'm new to the project.)
There are 2 books on this topic (Isis, NakedObjects). All what Dan did was to give us a brief interactive intro. But there are also public talks on this topic, e.g. Dan's Devoxx talk for which I posted a parleys link on the mailing list in the past already. All this information got already published on the list weeks ago...
For the JSR-299 part: we just talked about what we could do and what kind of specced CDI functionality is available in general. Nothing which didn't already got covered on the list also ...
So please lets not make an elephant from a fly :)
LieGrue,
strub
--- On Fri, 11/26/10, Bernd Fondermann <be...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> From: Bernd Fondermann <be...@googlemail.com>
> Subject: Re: skype conf call write-up...
> To: isis-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Date: Friday, November 26, 2010, 11:47 AM
> Hi,
>
> As I said on the incubator-general list, I think having
> conference
> calls for incubating projects or Apache projects in general
> is not an
> overwhelmingly good idea. More details inline.
>
> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 00:15, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Somewhat belatedly, just capturing a few notes from
> the skype conf call that
> > took place last Thu (crikey ... a week ago!)
> >
> <snip/>
> >
> > We then went around the "table" and introduced
> ourselves. Sorry, I didn't
> > take detailed notes, but my impression (and from
> following mails on
> > isis-dev) was that this was really worthwhile, and
> helped the community feel
> > like, well, a community.
>
> Except that for those not on the call, we now feel like not
> being part
> of the community.
> The community is here on-list and includes those lurkers
> and users not
> actively participating. At open source projects, committers
> typically
> represent less than 10% of the community, as you can derive
> from
> mailing list subscriber numbers.
>
> > I then did a screenshare to the call, and did a
> run-through of the key
> > elements of the architecture: core, defaults,
> alternatives, viewer; and
> > referencing JSR-299 for the terminology of "defaults"
> and "alternatives"
> > (we're hoping to refactor towards JSR-299 during
> incubation).
>
> Wow, this seems to be pretty important stuff for anyone
> interested in
> the project. Where can I find that information? In the ML
> archives? On
> the website? (Sorry, I'm new to the project.)
>
> >I also
> > described the different builds supported: mvn clean
> install and mvn
> > site-deploy, x-refing the wiki for details.
> >
> > We also talking briefly about the fact that we'll need
> to decide on a v0.1
> > release, what's to go into it, and when to aim for.
> I promised to put some
> > posts on the ML about this (which I've still to do).
>
> Releasing is a pretty important aspect for any project.
> Time would
> have been spent much better posting to the ML directly
> instead of
> discussing it on skype and then waiting a week until
> posting.
>
> As was emphasized elsewhere, off-list communication is not
> forbidden
> and it will happen - as a matter of fact. I just want to
> point out its
> disadvantages.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bernd
>
Re: skype conf call write-up...
Posted by Bernd Fondermann <be...@googlemail.com>.
Hi,
As I said on the incubator-general list, I think having conference
calls for incubating projects or Apache projects in general is not an
overwhelmingly good idea. More details inline.
On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 00:15, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Somewhat belatedly, just capturing a few notes from the skype conf call that
> took place last Thu (crikey ... a week ago!)
>
<snip/>
>
> We then went around the "table" and introduced ourselves. Sorry, I didn't
> take detailed notes, but my impression (and from following mails on
> isis-dev) was that this was really worthwhile, and helped the community feel
> like, well, a community.
Except that for those not on the call, we now feel like not being part
of the community.
The community is here on-list and includes those lurkers and users not
actively participating. At open source projects, committers typically
represent less than 10% of the community, as you can derive from
mailing list subscriber numbers.
> I then did a screenshare to the call, and did a run-through of the key
> elements of the architecture: core, defaults, alternatives, viewer; and
> referencing JSR-299 for the terminology of "defaults" and "alternatives"
> (we're hoping to refactor towards JSR-299 during incubation).
Wow, this seems to be pretty important stuff for anyone interested in
the project. Where can I find that information? In the ML archives? On
the website? (Sorry, I'm new to the project.)
>I also
> described the different builds supported: mvn clean install and mvn
> site-deploy, x-refing the wiki for details.
>
> We also talking briefly about the fact that we'll need to decide on a v0.1
> release, what's to go into it, and when to aim for. I promised to put some
> posts on the ML about this (which I've still to do).
Releasing is a pretty important aspect for any project. Time would
have been spent much better posting to the ML directly instead of
discussing it on skype and then waiting a week until posting.
As was emphasized elsewhere, off-list communication is not forbidden
and it will happen - as a matter of fact. I just want to point out its
disadvantages.
Thanks,
Bernd