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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org> on 2002/08/07 22:59:52 UTC
New committer: Rob Oxspring
As voted on jakarta-general we have a new committer for the Jakarta Project:
- Rob Oxspring <ro...@imapmail.org>
He received a s***load of +1 votes and no -1s.
Welcome to the family, Rob...
Pier
PS: Root, can you set up his account on cvs.apache.org, please? :) :) :)
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Re: New committer: Rob Oxspring
Posted by Conor MacNeill <co...@cortexebusiness.com.au>.
costinm@covalent.net wrote:
>
> I do hope they'll vote -1 - the more I think the more incomfortable I get.
> We spent several weeks discussing jakarta-commons, and Geir still got
> his 'I told you' few times. There was almost no discussion on the
> rules for jakarta-site, just 'let's do it'.
>
> I don't like taking away something that is 'common' ( not the project,
> just the word ) and making it restricted.
> But the real problem are the rule for 'usual' projects just don't
> apply here.
Site access has been "by request" to date. Costin, as you are advocating
the status quo, I don't think there have been any rules at all for what
content is allowed or otherwise.
Perhaps a veto on content and technology changes might be a good thing.
Conor
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RE: New committer: Rob Oxspring
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
I still cant see why granting a non-coding member write access to the
web-site source, which is what making them a commiter to the jakarta-site
does, isn't;
a) acceptable as a mechanism for granting membership, surely we trust them
as much as any coder to represent the project, and we want to extend
privileges to them.
b) a reasonable solution, is it unresonable to grant this privilege to
anyone we trust enough with a vote, do we secretly not really trust
non-coding members to publicly represent us?
And I fail to see why we need to either alter the method of gaining karma by
existing commiters to other sub-projects (ask) or why we need add the
complexity of another type of voting member.
I can see that we would need to do a *little* work project-ising
jakarta-site, but we don't really need to have strict and complex rules
regarding votes on changes, its not that kind of project. We're not suddenly
going to take leave of our senses just because non-coders have commit access
to jakarta-site2. Are we?
d.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:pier@betaversion.org]
> Sent: 08 August 2002 01:21
> To: Jakarta General List; Jakarta Project Management Committee List
> Subject: Re: New committer: Rob Oxspring
>
>
> Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@adeptra.com> wrote:
>
> > Is there any precedent for "Committer w/o project" anywhere in
> Apache-land?
>
> Sally Khudairi, manages press for the ASF, not a coder, but an
> active member
> of our community at large. Member of the foundation, not a "committer"
> anywhere. (I pointed this out three months ago).
>
> Dirk-Willem van Gulik, original president of the XML project PMC,
> continues
> to be an advisor for them (AFAIK), but he never contributed one
> line of code
> (AFAIK) to any of the XML projects.
>
> > Pier had some good args to me in a private mail regarding reasonable
> > hypothetical members who could be part of the community -
> advisors (legal
> > and otherwise), infrastructure maintainers, although the latter
> seem to be
> > traditionally a 'regular' committer. I'm not sure why they might need
> > committ privs, but it's possible...
>
> I explained my concerns approximately 3 months ago, in exactly
> the same way
> you're doing now, and I was flamed heavily. I re-proposed them
> when I called
> the vote for Rob, and I was turned down. Funny to see how history repeats
> itself. I'll be glad if this time you'll actually get more +1s than -1s.
>
> Pier
>
> --
> [Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp: a billion
> of different
> sublanguages in one monolithic executable. It combines the
> power of C with
> the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San
> Francisco]
>
>
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Re: New committer: Rob Oxspring
Posted by co...@covalent.net.
On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> I explained my concerns approximately 3 months ago, in exactly the same way
> you're doing now, and I was flamed heavily. I re-proposed them when I called
> the vote for Rob, and I was turned down. Funny to see how history repeats
> itself. I'll be glad if this time you'll actually get more +1s than -1s.
3 months ago you proposed people who had cvs access but no right to vote,
at least that's what I remember of your proposal and flames.
Costin
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Re: New committer: Rob Oxspring
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org>.
Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@adeptra.com> wrote:
> Is there any precedent for "Committer w/o project" anywhere in Apache-land?
Sally Khudairi, manages press for the ASF, not a coder, but an active member
of our community at large. Member of the foundation, not a "committer"
anywhere. (I pointed this out three months ago).
Dirk-Willem van Gulik, original president of the XML project PMC, continues
to be an advisor for them (AFAIK), but he never contributed one line of code
(AFAIK) to any of the XML projects.
> Pier had some good args to me in a private mail regarding reasonable
> hypothetical members who could be part of the community - advisors (legal
> and otherwise), infrastructure maintainers, although the latter seem to be
> traditionally a 'regular' committer. I'm not sure why they might need
> committ privs, but it's possible...
I explained my concerns approximately 3 months ago, in exactly the same way
you're doing now, and I was flamed heavily. I re-proposed them when I called
the vote for Rob, and I was turned down. Funny to see how history repeats
itself. I'll be glad if this time you'll actually get more +1s than -1s.
Pier
--
[Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp: a billion of different
sublanguages in one monolithic executable. It combines the power of C with
the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]
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Re: New committer: Rob Oxspring
Posted by co...@covalent.net.
On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> Is there any precedent for "Committer w/o project" anywhere in Apache-land?
>
> Pier had some good args to me in a private mail regarding reasonable
> hypothetical members who could be part of the community - advisors (legal
> and otherwise), infrastructure maintainers, although the latter seem to be
> traditionally a 'regular' committer. I'm not sure why they might need
> committ privs, but it's possible...
I have no problem with creating a jakarta-site 'project' and adding all
those people to it. That's a reasonably clean solution.
The only issue is setting the right rules for this.
IMHO any jakarta commiter should be able to get into jakarta-site -
as it was the case until now, and similar with commons-sandbox. And
all jakarta commiters should vote on issues related to the site.
I would also like to have a review-than-commit system - and some
rules to accept/reject changes to the site. This is a very visible
site, and it was used in the past to post controversial things -
and that should be possible in the future ( i.e. no simple -1 to
block a post ). Probably a majority vote would do it. Same for
the technology and dtd.
Costin
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Re: New committer: Rob Oxspring
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 8/7/02 7:37 PM, "costinm@covalent.net" <co...@covalent.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>>> Is it that we are just short of a PMC majority to get jakarta-site (-site2)
>>> as a project?
>>
>> So what do we do? I am sympathetic to the idea voiced by Costin (and Pier)
>> that jakarta-site(2) is a shared place for all to work on. Further, I am +1
>> for Rob becoming a committer so he can contribute. However, I think that we
>> want to avoid any one-off precedent if we can.
>
> I think there is a majority, I counted 4-1 - that is 2/3 of votes. Do we
> need 2/3 of all members to vote ( that would require another +1 ). In
> any case I think we need to wait for a week or something to give the other
> 2 members time to vote ( I suspect some vacation :-)
>
> I do hope they'll vote -1 - the more I think the more incomfortable I get.
> We spent several weeks discussing jakarta-commons, and Geir still got
> his 'I told you' few times. There was almost no discussion on the
> rules for jakarta-site, just 'let's do it'.
What? What is my 'I told you'? Like an "I told you so!" Yeah, I might
have had a few, but nothing major :) (The current implicit proposal of
adding JSTL's EL as a component w/ a de facto sub-charter is another
interesting case...)
I'm the first to want discussion on this. (As proof, reread he above thing
that you are responding to...)
>
> I don't like taking away something that is 'common' ( not the project,
> just the word ) and making it restricted.
> But the real problem are the rule for 'usual' projects just don't
> apply here.
>
> What is a valid reason for 'veto' ? If you don't like some content ?
> Spelling errors ? Controversial things ( like critics on some company
> or project ) ?
>
> I would like to see some clear rules on how the content for the first
> page is selected/reviewed - and also to have a way to decide what
> technology and DTDs we use, etc. Will this be a majority vote of
> those who happen to be on the avail of jakarta-site ? I think it
> should be the whole jakarta.
>
> Anyway - there is still a chance for this to be turned down and I would
> apreciate you waiting few more days.
I'm happy to revoke my vote for a few days to stop it so we can discuss, but
we still need to do something for Rob.
Is there any precedent for "Committer w/o project" anywhere in Apache-land?
Pier had some good args to me in a private mail regarding reasonable
hypothetical members who could be part of the community - advisors (legal
and otherwise), infrastructure maintainers, although the latter seem to be
traditionally a 'regular' committer. I'm not sure why they might need
committ privs, but it's possible...
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
geirm@adeptra.com
+1-203-247-1713
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Re: New committer: Rob Oxspring
Posted by co...@covalent.net.
On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> > Is it that we are just short of a PMC majority to get jakarta-site (-site2)
> > as a project?
>
> So what do we do? I am sympathetic to the idea voiced by Costin (and Pier)
> that jakarta-site(2) is a shared place for all to work on. Further, I am +1
> for Rob becoming a committer so he can contribute. However, I think that we
> want to avoid any one-off precedent if we can.
I think there is a majority, I counted 4-1 - that is 2/3 of votes. Do we
need 2/3 of all members to vote ( that would require another +1 ). In
any case I think we need to wait for a week or something to give the other
2 members time to vote ( I suspect some vacation :-)
I do hope they'll vote -1 - the more I think the more incomfortable I get.
We spent several weeks discussing jakarta-commons, and Geir still got
his 'I told you' few times. There was almost no discussion on the
rules for jakarta-site, just 'let's do it'.
I don't like taking away something that is 'common' ( not the project,
just the word ) and making it restricted.
But the real problem are the rule for 'usual' projects just don't
apply here.
What is a valid reason for 'veto' ? If you don't like some content ?
Spelling errors ? Controversial things ( like critics on some company
or project ) ?
I would like to see some clear rules on how the content for the first
page is selected/reviewed - and also to have a way to decide what
technology and DTDs we use, etc. Will this be a majority vote of
those who happen to be on the avail of jakarta-site ? I think it
should be the whole jakarta.
Anyway - there is still a chance for this to be turned down and I would
apreciate you waiting few more days.
Costin
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Re: New committer: Rob Oxspring
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 8/7/02 6:55 PM, "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com> wrote:
> On 8/7/02 6:49 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <pi...@betaversion.org> wrote:
>
>> "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not worried about the act of adding his user name to the avail file and
>>> committing it, but rather keeping this process organized...
>>
>> I had a very nice solution, it was voted down, so whatever... Someone just
>> make it happen, as I'm completely pissed-off and don't want to start another
>> flamewar...
>
> What sort of flamewar would you like to start? We're on the same side here,
> so there would be no-one to shoot at...
Pier and I are not in agreement on this one. It's my mistake in stating so,
and I want to correct it.
I also don't want another flame war, as I will then have to moderate all the
traffic, and we just got done with the whole EJB/C#/D-/.NET/.COM/C/D/J2EE
fest...
:)
>
> Creating 'jakarta-site' as a project *and* adding Rob as a committer to it,
> got overwhelming support, if I recall correctly.
>
> Is it that we are just short of a PMC majority to get jakarta-site (-site2)
> as a project?
So what do we do? I am sympathetic to the idea voiced by Costin (and Pier)
that jakarta-site(2) is a shared place for all to work on. Further, I am +1
for Rob becoming a committer so he can contribute. However, I think that we
want to avoid any one-off precedent if we can.
Further ideas?
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
geirm@adeptra.com
+1-203-247-1713
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Re: New committer: Rob Oxspring
Posted by Daniel Rall <dl...@finemaltcoding.com>.
Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org> writes:
> I never said I wanted jakarta-site to be a project. I want people to
> be able to have voting rights despite their status as committers to
> a particular CVS tree... We are _not_ on the same side.
It's a matter of roles and permissions. The Jakarta project currently
only recognizes only a few roles, like PMC member or commiter.
Committers have the vote and commit permissions. Pier is suggesting
taking the voting permission, and establishing a new role which has
only this permission. This is a good thing, but needs to be
officially recognized and made part of our process.
--
Daniel Rall <dl...@finemaltcoding.com>
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Re: New committer: Rob Oxspring
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org>.
"Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com> wrote:
> What sort of flamewar would you like to start?
The same old one. Jakarta Committers vs. Jakarta Members.
> We're on the same side here, so there would be no-one to shoot at...
> Creating 'jakarta-site' as a project *and* adding Rob as a committer to it,
> got overwhelming support, if I recall correctly.
I never said I wanted jakarta-site to be a project. I want people to be able
to have voting rights despite their status as committers to a particular CVS
tree... We are _not_ on the same side.
> Is it that we are just short of a PMC majority to get jakarta-site (-site2)
> as a project?
That's not my problem. I had the same problem for some logo licensing
issues, no one responded and I had to escalate the whole thing to the
board...
Next time you folks elect the PMC, just make sure that you pick people who
can actually be responsive to issues like those. (For the records, I am
_not_ on the PMC).
All I care about is to see Rob given his rights, as he was voted in. For the
rest, I neither have the willingness, nor the time, to do it.
Cheeridooos! :)
Pier
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Re: New committer: Rob Oxspring
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 8/7/02 6:49 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <pi...@betaversion.org> wrote:
> "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm not worried about the act of adding his user name to the avail file and
>> committing it, but rather keeping this process organized...
>
> I had a very nice solution, it was voted down, so whatever... Someone just
> make it happen, as I'm completely pissed-off and don't want to start another
> flamewar...
What sort of flamewar would you like to start? We're on the same side here,
so there would be no-one to shoot at...
Creating 'jakarta-site' as a project *and* adding Rob as a committer to it,
got overwhelming support, if I recall correctly.
Is it that we are just short of a PMC majority to get jakarta-site (-site2)
as a project?
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
geirm@adeptra.com
+1-203-247-1713
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Re: New committer: Rob Oxspring
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org>.
"Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com> wrote:
> I'm not worried about the act of adding his user name to the avail file and
> committing it, but rather keeping this process organized...
I had a very nice solution, it was voted down, so whatever... Someone just
make it happen, as I'm completely pissed-off and don't want to start another
flamewar...
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Re: New committer: Rob Oxspring
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 8/7/02 6:41 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <pi...@betaversion.org> wrote:
> "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com> wrote:
>
>> On 8/7/02 4:59 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <pi...@betaversion.org> wrote:
>>
>>> As voted on jakarta-general we have a new committer for the Jakarta Project:
>>>
>>> - Rob Oxspring <ro...@imapmail.org>
>>>
>>> He received a s***load of +1 votes and no -1s.
>>>
>>> Welcome to the family, Rob...
>>>
>>> Pier
>>>
>>> PS: Root, can you set up his account on cvs.apache.org, please? :) :) :)
>>
>>
>> I think we should get the project he's a committer for straightened out,
>> right, because as far as I know, we don't have 'committers for the Jakarta
>> Project'
>
> Since I'm one of the few who can actually grant karma, that's not a big
> deal.
>
I can do it as well.
I'm not worried about the act of adding his user name to the avail file and
committing it, but rather keeping this process organized...
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
geirm@adeptra.com
+1-203-247-1713
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Re: New committer: Rob Oxspring
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org>.
"Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com> wrote:
> On 8/7/02 4:59 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <pi...@betaversion.org> wrote:
>
>> As voted on jakarta-general we have a new committer for the Jakarta Project:
>>
>> - Rob Oxspring <ro...@imapmail.org>
>>
>> He received a s***load of +1 votes and no -1s.
>>
>> Welcome to the family, Rob...
>>
>> Pier
>>
>> PS: Root, can you set up his account on cvs.apache.org, please? :) :) :)
>
>
> I think we should get the project he's a committer for straightened out,
> right, because as far as I know, we don't have 'committers for the Jakarta
> Project'
Since I'm one of the few who can actually grant karma, that's not a big
deal.
Pier
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Re: New committer: Rob Oxspring
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 8/7/02 4:59 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <pi...@betaversion.org> wrote:
> As voted on jakarta-general we have a new committer for the Jakarta Project:
>
> - Rob Oxspring <ro...@imapmail.org>
>
> He received a s***load of +1 votes and no -1s.
>
> Welcome to the family, Rob...
>
> Pier
>
> PS: Root, can you set up his account on cvs.apache.org, please? :) :) :)
I think we should get the project he's a committer for straightened out,
right, because as far as I know, we don't have 'committers for the Jakarta
Project'
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
geirm@adeptra.com
+1-203-247-1713
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