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Posted to community@apache.org by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@bristowhill.com> on 2005/12/17 02:17:46 UTC
At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
derby-user@db.apache.org has been grappling with someone who delights in
belittling other posters on the list. The topic was raised on women@
(see the thread starting with
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-women/200511.mbox/%3c4371355F.90508@debrunners.com%3e
), but I think it's more appropriate for this list.
We followed Karl Fogel's excellent advice at
http://producingoss.com/html-chunk/setting-tone.html#prevent-rudeness
and still have seen problems. I have little faith at this point that
we'll be able to really nip this in the bud because the poster clearly
enjoys the behavior he's exhibiting.
We're for the most part ignoring jabs, but if he does another personal
attack on someone, I'd like to deny his ability to post for the
following reasons:
1) I have already heard from users who said they're reluctant to post
because they're afraid they'll be the object of his witty retorts.
2) I think the bar should be higher for a user list than a developer
list. Not that personal attacks should be condoned on derby-dev@db
either, but I think developers are more likely to see that behavior for
what it is, roll their eyes, and shrug it off. Users are more likely to
silently disappear without our even knowing.
My questions for this list are:
1) Am I being too protective of the user community?
2) Have any other projects found a need to deny the ability for somebody
to post? I know the commands are listed at
http://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mail-moderate , but how much
do they actually get used?
3) Is there any concern that a denied poster would turn around and flame
the ASF?
regards,
-jean
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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> Below are links to public responses to some of his posts (which are numerous
> enough that they alone would be frustrating to wade through):
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/db-derby-user/200508.mbox/%3C430DECF5.2070609@bristowhill.com%3E
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/db-derby-user/200510.mbox/%3c43622C54.8030502@sun.com%3e
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/db-derby-user/200511.mbox/%3C2EDE6E68-7660-467A-92F4-BC4858E44A3F@sun.com%3E
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/db-derby-user/200512.mbox/%3c439D9A71.4060905@bristowhill.com%3e
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/db-derby-user/200512.mbox/%3c439DC2A5.3010703@sun.com%3e
Have you had an off-list chat with the individual?
Sometimes this kind of thing is just culture-clash; there are places where
his style is more normal (often noted by the constant ;)'s to attempt to
imply joking).
A private word is often a lot more successful in winning someone over to
your culture than trying to deal with it publically.
The classic 'praise in public, criticize in private'.
Hen
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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 2006-01-05 at 19:08 -0500, Ted Husted wrote:
> On 1/5/06, robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org> wrote:
> > i'm not sure that i'll find the time for an article but - if there
> > unfortunately isn't anyone out there with a literary itch to scratch - i
> > will create a basic document over in apache dev so that people can build
> > it up. there's a bit of a tradition of using cool emails in
> > documentation so ted: any objection to your email being used in such a
> > page?
>
> Not in the least: Feel free to fold spindle and mutilate.
grand :)
i've created an outline page that needs some revision here:
http://www.apache.org/dev/project-mailing-lists.html. i hope to be able
to get back and make improvements (could be a few days, though) but at
least it's a start. please feel free to dive in (i'm not particularly
satisfied so there's no need to worry about my feelings ;)
commmitters should be able to check out infrastructure site from
subversion and create patches for it but site karma is required to
commit changes. so, those without karma will need to add patches to the
infrastructure project in JIRA.
- robert
Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 1/5/06, robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org> wrote:
> i'm not sure that i'll find the time for an article but - if there
> unfortunately isn't anyone out there with a literary itch to scratch - i
> will create a basic document over in apache dev so that people can build
> it up. there's a bit of a tradition of using cool emails in
> documentation so ted: any objection to your email being used in such a
> page?
Not in the least: Feel free to fold spindle and mutilate.
-Ted.
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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 2006-01-03 at 16:05 -0800, Will Glass-Husain wrote:
> I've been enjoying reading this discussion. I think many of us have
> struggled with similar issues in the mailing lists.
>
> If someone was interesting in writing an essay that summarized and quoted
> some of the key insights from this thread it would be an interesting article
> for the web site or Wiki.
anyone like to step up?
i'm not sure that i'll find the time for an article but - if there
unfortunately isn't anyone out there with a literary itch to scratch - i
will create a basic document over in apache dev so that people can build
it up. there's a bit of a tradition of using cool emails in
documentation so ted: any objection to your email being used in such a
page?
- robert
Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 1/3/06, Will Glass-Husain <wg...@apache.org> wrote:
> I've been enjoying reading this discussion. I think many of us have
> struggled with similar issues in the mailing lists.
>
> If someone was interesting in writing an essay that summarized and quoted
> some of the key insights from this thread it would be an interesting article
> for the web site or Wiki.
Towards a summary, here are some background links:
* Gentle - http://www.askdavetaylor.com/whats_a_troll_and_a_zombie.html
* Naughty - http://www.urban75.com/Mag/troll.html
* Definitive - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_trolls
-Ted.
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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by Will Glass-Husain <wg...@apache.org>.
I've been enjoying reading this discussion. I think many of us have
struggled with similar issues in the mailing lists.
If someone was interesting in writing an essay that summarized and quoted
some of the key insights from this thread it would be an interesting article
for the web site or Wiki.
Best, WILL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Davanum Srinivas" <da...@gmail.com>
To: <co...@apache.org>; <hu...@apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 6:17 AM
Subject: Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
+10000 We need to document this :)
thanks
-- dims
On 1/1/06, Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/20/05, Jean T. Anderson <jt...@apache.org> wrote:
> > I think potentially *anything* could feed a troll, so then the goal is
> > how to minimize troll effects on the community. I really like Mark's
> > Gandhi approach for setting FUD straight, and I think the humor of your
> > approach definitely merits a place in the anti-troll arsenal.
> >
> > -jean
>
> Gandhi said "You must be the change you wish to see in the world,"
> which, I think, is excellent advice for anyone working in open source,
> especially when dealing with trolls.
>
> Once I determine a poster is a troll, I never, ever feed the troll.
> Usually, I filter the posts directly to the trash. Back in the BBS
> days, we called this a "twit list".
>
> If I do see a flame, I go back to the original poster and respond in a
> helpful way, but without quoting the flame. I do what should have been
> done in the first place: I "be the change".
>
> If there's misinformation in a flame that needs to be corrected, I
> look for another way to reply without quoting the misinformation.
> Sometimes that can be done by responding to someone else in the
> thread. Other times, I will start a new thread to state the correct
> information but without quoting the misinformation. Again: Be the
> change, and don't feed the trolls.
>
> I avoid answering questions about a project off list. If someone can't
> or won't post to the list, and it's a question I want to answer, I'll
> post the question and answer to the list myself, but not to one person
> alone.
>
> If someone sends me a question that they should ask on the list, I
> always reply: "The best place to post a question like this is the User
> list, where there are more people to help an the answers are archived.
> [Link to the mailing list page.]"
>
> If someone asks me about a troll, I suggest that they do what I do:
> Filter the twit to the trash. If that someone then posts to the list,
> I make sure they recieve a helpful response.
>
> When a new committer joins one of my projects, and we've had trouble
> with trolls, I send them this note:
>
> ----
>
> From time to time, all public mailing lists have trouble with trolls
> -- people who delight in complaining for the sake of complaining. And,
> of course Apache mailing lists are no exception.
>
> Trolls have been discussed at length on internal lists, and in the
> end, we are left with the Apache maxim:
>
> * Don't feed the trolls.
>
> We do try listening and we do try reasoning, and when that doesn't
> work we are left with shunning.
>
> It doesn't always make the trolls go away, but it does tend to quiet
> them. Replying only makes it worse, not only because trolls don't
> listen or reason (they only complain), but because it steals time from
> productive work. Time we waste replying to trolls can't be spent
> applying patches or replying to earnest users.
>
> Of course, we are all volunteers here, and we are free to act
> according to our own lights, but it my experience, starving trolls
> does work -- at least as well as anything else does.
>
> ----
>
> In one case, a troll from one project started to post to another. I
> was able to warn the other PMC right away. None of the commtters fell
> for the troll-bait, and the troll went away.
>
> Happy New Year!
>
> -Ted.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
--
Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
+10000 We need to document this :)
thanks
-- dims
On 1/1/06, Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/20/05, Jean T. Anderson <jt...@apache.org> wrote:
> > I think potentially *anything* could feed a troll, so then the goal is
> > how to minimize troll effects on the community. I really like Mark's
> > Gandhi approach for setting FUD straight, and I think the humor of your
> > approach definitely merits a place in the anti-troll arsenal.
> >
> > -jean
>
> Gandhi said "You must be the change you wish to see in the world,"
> which, I think, is excellent advice for anyone working in open source,
> especially when dealing with trolls.
>
> Once I determine a poster is a troll, I never, ever feed the troll.
> Usually, I filter the posts directly to the trash. Back in the BBS
> days, we called this a "twit list".
>
> If I do see a flame, I go back to the original poster and respond in a
> helpful way, but without quoting the flame. I do what should have been
> done in the first place: I "be the change".
>
> If there's misinformation in a flame that needs to be corrected, I
> look for another way to reply without quoting the misinformation.
> Sometimes that can be done by responding to someone else in the
> thread. Other times, I will start a new thread to state the correct
> information but without quoting the misinformation. Again: Be the
> change, and don't feed the trolls.
>
> I avoid answering questions about a project off list. If someone can't
> or won't post to the list, and it's a question I want to answer, I'll
> post the question and answer to the list myself, but not to one person
> alone.
>
> If someone sends me a question that they should ask on the list, I
> always reply: "The best place to post a question like this is the User
> list, where there are more people to help an the answers are archived.
> [Link to the mailing list page.]"
>
> If someone asks me about a troll, I suggest that they do what I do:
> Filter the twit to the trash. If that someone then posts to the list,
> I make sure they recieve a helpful response.
>
> When a new committer joins one of my projects, and we've had trouble
> with trolls, I send them this note:
>
> ----
>
> From time to time, all public mailing lists have trouble with trolls
> -- people who delight in complaining for the sake of complaining. And,
> of course Apache mailing lists are no exception.
>
> Trolls have been discussed at length on internal lists, and in the
> end, we are left with the Apache maxim:
>
> * Don't feed the trolls.
>
> We do try listening and we do try reasoning, and when that doesn't
> work we are left with shunning.
>
> It doesn't always make the trolls go away, but it does tend to quiet
> them. Replying only makes it worse, not only because trolls don't
> listen or reason (they only complain), but because it steals time from
> productive work. Time we waste replying to trolls can't be spent
> applying patches or replying to earnest users.
>
> Of course, we are all volunteers here, and we are free to act
> according to our own lights, but it my experience, starving trolls
> does work -- at least as well as anything else does.
>
> ----
>
> In one case, a troll from one project started to post to another. I
> was able to warn the other PMC right away. None of the commtters fell
> for the troll-bait, and the troll went away.
>
> Happy New Year!
>
> -Ted.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
--
Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 12/20/05, Jean T. Anderson <jt...@apache.org> wrote:
> I think potentially *anything* could feed a troll, so then the goal is
> how to minimize troll effects on the community. I really like Mark's
> Gandhi approach for setting FUD straight, and I think the humor of your
> approach definitely merits a place in the anti-troll arsenal.
>
> -jean
Gandhi said "You must be the change you wish to see in the world,"
which, I think, is excellent advice for anyone working in open source,
especially when dealing with trolls.
Once I determine a poster is a troll, I never, ever feed the troll.
Usually, I filter the posts directly to the trash. Back in the BBS
days, we called this a "twit list".
If I do see a flame, I go back to the original poster and respond in a
helpful way, but without quoting the flame. I do what should have been
done in the first place: I "be the change".
If there's misinformation in a flame that needs to be corrected, I
look for another way to reply without quoting the misinformation.
Sometimes that can be done by responding to someone else in the
thread. Other times, I will start a new thread to state the correct
information but without quoting the misinformation. Again: Be the
change, and don't feed the trolls.
I avoid answering questions about a project off list. If someone can't
or won't post to the list, and it's a question I want to answer, I'll
post the question and answer to the list myself, but not to one person
alone.
If someone sends me a question that they should ask on the list, I
always reply: "The best place to post a question like this is the User
list, where there are more people to help an the answers are archived.
[Link to the mailing list page.]"
If someone asks me about a troll, I suggest that they do what I do:
Filter the twit to the trash. If that someone then posts to the list,
I make sure they recieve a helpful response.
When a new committer joins one of my projects, and we've had trouble
with trolls, I send them this note:
----
>From time to time, all public mailing lists have trouble with trolls
-- people who delight in complaining for the sake of complaining. And,
of course Apache mailing lists are no exception.
Trolls have been discussed at length on internal lists, and in the
end, we are left with the Apache maxim:
* Don't feed the trolls.
We do try listening and we do try reasoning, and when that doesn't
work we are left with shunning.
It doesn't always make the trolls go away, but it does tend to quiet
them. Replying only makes it worse, not only because trolls don't
listen or reason (they only complain), but because it steals time from
productive work. Time we waste replying to trolls can't be spent
applying patches or replying to earnest users.
Of course, we are all volunteers here, and we are free to act
according to our own lights, but it my experience, starving trolls
does work -- at least as well as anything else does.
----
In one case, a troll from one project started to post to another. I
was able to warn the other PMC right away. None of the commtters fell
for the troll-bait, and the troll went away.
Happy New Year!
-Ted.
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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@apache.org>.
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> Mark Thomas wrote:
>
>> Jean T. Anderson wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I think ignoring is an excellent tactic for a developer's list. I worry
>>> that isn't strong enough for a user's list, but I also wouldn't want to
>>> embark on a path that could backfire.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Not exactly the same situation as yours but one of our users went off
>> on one a few months back and it looked like a flame war was about to
>> start. Rather than flame the guy (and boy was I tempted) I found that
>> an extremely polite reply taking every care to be reasonable whilst
>> quietly pointing out where he was wrong worked very well. I actually
>> got half a dozen messages from other users saying something along the
>> lines of "Great reply. I was about to flame the <insert favourite
>> adjective/noun combination here> but your reply was much better." and
>> best of all, not a single flame in response on the users list.
>>
>> For reference, my reply is here.
>> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=tomcat-user&m=113114296007215&w=2
>>
>> Most of the credit for what I wrote should go to those who responded
>> calmly to a similar rant of his on the dev list.
>>
>
>
> Reminds me of something that happened on cocoon-dev. One of the guys
> responsible for the death of Avalon tried to spit his venom in Cocoon.
>
> I replied with a fake SpamAssassin report:
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=109792613001037&w=2
>
> That could seems like feeding the troll, but the fact that it looked
> like an impersonal machine-generated message actually made him disappear.
I think potentially *anything* could feed a troll, so then the goal is
how to minimize troll effects on the community. I really like Mark's
Gandhi approach for setting FUD straight, and I think the humor of your
approach definitely merits a place in the anti-troll arsenal.
-jean
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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org>.
Mark Thomas wrote:
> Jean T. Anderson wrote:
>
>> I think ignoring is an excellent tactic for a developer's list. I worry
>> that isn't strong enough for a user's list, but I also wouldn't want to
>> embark on a path that could backfire.
>>
>
> Not exactly the same situation as yours but one of our users went off
> on one a few months back and it looked like a flame war was about to
> start. Rather than flame the guy (and boy was I tempted) I found that
> an extremely polite reply taking every care to be reasonable whilst
> quietly pointing out where he was wrong worked very well. I actually
> got half a dozen messages from other users saying something along the
> lines of "Great reply. I was about to flame the <insert favourite
> adjective/noun combination here> but your reply was much better." and
> best of all, not a single flame in response on the users list.
>
> For reference, my reply is here.
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=tomcat-user&m=113114296007215&w=2
>
> Most of the credit for what I wrote should go to those who responded
> calmly to a similar rant of his on the dev list.
>
Reminds me of something that happened on cocoon-dev. One of the guys
responsible for the death of Avalon tried to spit his venom in Cocoon.
I replied with a fake SpamAssassin report:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=109792613001037&w=2
That could seems like feeding the troll, but the fact that it looked
like an impersonal machine-generated message actually made him disappear.
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://bluxte.net http://www.anyware-tech.com
Apache Software Foundation Member Research & Technology Director
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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>.
El sáb, 17-12-2005 a las 09:14 -0800, Jean T. Anderson escribió:
> Mark Thomas wrote:
> > Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> >
> >>I think ignoring is an excellent tactic for a developer's list. I worry
> >>that isn't strong enough for a user's list, but I also wouldn't want to
> >>embark on a path that could backfire.
> >
> >
> > Not exactly the same situation as yours but one of our users went off
> > on one a few months back and it looked like a flame war was about to
> > start. Rather than flame the guy (and boy was I tempted) I found that
> > an extremely polite reply taking every care to be reasonable whilst
> > quietly pointing out where he was wrong worked very well. I actually
> > got half a dozen messages from other users saying something along the
> > lines of "Great reply. I was about to flame the <insert favourite
> > adjective/noun combination here> but your reply was much better." and
> > best of all, not a single flame in response on the users list.
> >
> > For reference, my reply is here.
> > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=tomcat-user&m=113114296007215&w=2
> >
> > Most of the credit for what I wrote should go to those who responded
> > calmly to a similar rant of his on the dev list.
>
> thanks for the excellent example.
wow, yes, even right now I feel the urge to flame this guy. ;-)
Nice example, thx.
BTW I reckon it is a very good alternative to the approach Stefano
described (fight fire with fire on the #2 guy). It has the advantage
that you can be the #2 guy and a Gandhi approach is even harder to turn
down.
salu2
--
thorsten
"Together we stand, divided we fall!"
Hey you (Pink Floyd)
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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@apache.org>.
Mark Thomas wrote:
> Jean T. Anderson wrote:
>
>>I think ignoring is an excellent tactic for a developer's list. I worry
>>that isn't strong enough for a user's list, but I also wouldn't want to
>>embark on a path that could backfire.
>
>
> Not exactly the same situation as yours but one of our users went off
> on one a few months back and it looked like a flame war was about to
> start. Rather than flame the guy (and boy was I tempted) I found that
> an extremely polite reply taking every care to be reasonable whilst
> quietly pointing out where he was wrong worked very well. I actually
> got half a dozen messages from other users saying something along the
> lines of "Great reply. I was about to flame the <insert favourite
> adjective/noun combination here> but your reply was much better." and
> best of all, not a single flame in response on the users list.
>
> For reference, my reply is here.
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=tomcat-user&m=113114296007215&w=2
>
> Most of the credit for what I wrote should go to those who responded
> calmly to a similar rant of his on the dev list.
thanks for the excellent example.
-jean
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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>.
Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> I think ignoring is an excellent tactic for a developer's list. I worry
> that isn't strong enough for a user's list, but I also wouldn't want to
> embark on a path that could backfire.
Not exactly the same situation as yours but one of our users went off
on one a few months back and it looked like a flame war was about to
start. Rather than flame the guy (and boy was I tempted) I found that
an extremely polite reply taking every care to be reasonable whilst
quietly pointing out where he was wrong worked very well. I actually
got half a dozen messages from other users saying something along the
lines of "Great reply. I was about to flame the <insert favourite
adjective/noun combination here> but your reply was much better." and
best of all, not a single flame in response on the users list.
For reference, my reply is here.
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=tomcat-user&m=113114296007215&w=2
Most of the credit for what I wrote should go to those who responded
calmly to a similar rant of his on the dev list.
HTH,
Mark
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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>> On Dec 16, 2005, at 5:17 PM, Jean T. Anderson wrote:
>>
>>> derby-user@db.apache.org has been grappling with someone who
>>> delights in belittling other posters on the list. The topic was
>>> raised on women@ (see the thread starting with http://mail-
>>> archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-women/200511.mbox/%3c4371355F.
>>> 90508@debrunners.com%3e ), but I think it's more appropriate for
>>> this list.
>>
>>
>> For crying out loud, would you please supply links to the exact posts
>> you consider to be in poor taste and the person's name? I just wasted
>> 10 minutes trying to follow the bread crumbs. You have to make it
>> easier on reviewers -- everyone seems to be painfully avoiding
>> a pointer to an actual message.
>
> sorry -- I'm not trying to frustrate folks. I considered posting
> specific links, but withdrew them at the end, even though they are links
> to public archives. The name at the core is Michael Segel.
>
> Below are links to public responses to some of his posts (which are
> numerous enough that they alone would be frustrating to wade through):
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/db-derby-user/200508.mbox/%3C430DECF5.2070609@bristowhill.com%3E
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/db-derby-user/200510.mbox/%3c43622C54.8030502@sun.com%3e
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/db-derby-user/200511.mbox/%3C2EDE6E68-7660-467A-92F4-BC4858E44A3F@sun.com%3E
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/db-derby-user/200512.mbox/%3c439D9A71.4060905@bristowhill.com%3e
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/db-derby-user/200512.mbox/%3c439DC2A5.3010703@sun.com%3e
>
>
> The first two posts were disassociated from the offending message and
> the tactic clearly didn't work.
>
> The last two were recent (this week). Off line communication makes me
> believe he has no intention of moderating his behavior, hence the
> question of at what point you unsubscribe/deny a user.
>
>> In general, it is the responsibility of the PMC to govern its own
>> lists. If the PMC decides to boot them, then go ahead. Most
>> groups just shun the user.
>
> One of the DB PMC members was asking about frequency of denial, which is
> an excellent question, which Noel responded to with "Rarely. Really
> really rarely." It's helpful for us to know how other projects at the
> ASF handle such situations. I'm getting questions from users asking why
> we don't just boot him. I'm happy to respond with "The ASF doesn't like
> to do that except for the most extreme cases" if that is the right
> answer. This case is merely very annoying, not extreme.
>
> I think ignoring is an excellent tactic for a developer's list. I worry
> that isn't strong enough for a user's list, but I also wouldn't want to
> embark on a path that could backfire.
One technique that I have applied with very nice success works like this:
1) somebody crosses the line of respect and you see a pattern
[at this point you feel you should say something: *DON'T*]
2) but somebody less clueful will
3) you flame the #2 guy
Now, it sounds pretty weird but this is the rationale:
1) those who cross the line of respect with a pattern do it
intentionally, the motivations are numerous but they are normally asking
for help or they are just looking for a good fight
2) in both cases, replying to him (yes, him, it's *always* a guy) and
tell him what the rules of the community and stuff like "flame-free
zone" are just going to make things worse. If he wants help, he'll start
looking for the fight, if the fight was what he was looking for, he
found it.
3) there is always somebody in the community that doesn't know this
pattern, so they will reply quietly or, even better, they will flame him.
4) if they flame him back, it's easier: just flame the counter-flamer.
The counter-flamer probably has tons of respect for you, because he
(again, a guy) wants to protect the community he cares for. He's just
not seeing the whole picture. So, what you do is tell him that the
original flamer has all the rights in the world to speak in the way he
wants. If #2 doesn't flame (as in your case), it's harder for the
reasons below.
5) let's say you flamed the counter-flamer, this has two consequences:
a) the counter-flamer is a little offended but a private email
explaining this rational would save his ego and also have the benefit of
increasing the trust he has on you as a leader. For sure he will stop
flaming, because that's what he wanted to avoid in the first place and
calling him on that stops it.
b) but more important, the original flaming guy is puzzled. If he
was looking for help, he found out that he doesn't have to tone his
language, he feels more accepted, therefore less defensive, therefore
his language changes and gets easier to deal with. If he was looking for
a fight, he knows he's not going to get it here and leaves.
Now, the *WORST* thing you can do is to reply "this is a flame-free
zone". It's very hard to get out of there, because now the guy feels
cornered and anything you do in relation to his behavior is going to
enforce it.
Kicking him out is going to be even worse: first, he can come back with
another email address and even a nickname, second the community will
fell that the leadership is weak and that they might be next to get
kicked out if they had a bad day and the striking software didn't work
and their bosses kicked their ass (and so on).
So, my personal opinion on your question in the title is: never. The
immediate benefit is very small compared to the price you have to pay
for having that precedent down the road.
How to deal with this guy? ignore him and wait for the counter-flamer :-)
--
Stefano.
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RE: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Jean,
> The name at the core is Michael Segel.
Ah, then people can go to mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/db-derby-user
and view sorted by author. Better still would be to know which ones are
being considered offensive.
I reviewed a dozen or so of his posts, and I saw a few snarky comments, but
for the most part he seemed more clueless, e.g., his participation in the
"Why are classpath databases always read-only ?" thread, than snarky. When
technically challenged on some of his clueless bits, he tended to turn
snarky as a form of defense. So he seems to be a bit on the clueless side,
defensive about it, and just a somewhat of a snarky personality to boot,
since he had a few gratuitously snarky sign-offs directed at no one in
particular.
Of course, since he's promoting himself as some sort of consulting expert,
he's seriously not doing himself any favors. I mean, how inspired would
*you* be to contract Michael Segel Consulting Corp? Or anyone else, once
they review his writings in the archives, to want that attitude and mode of
expression in their place of business?
--- Noel
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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <an...@apache.org>.
Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> Well, yes, but what I asked for was the posts that you consider to be
> in poor taste, not responses to those posts. But now that I know who
> you are talking about I could use the view-by-author and see that this
> person is better than the typical troll with diarrhea of the fingers.
lol.
> He is usually right, even when though he would fail miserably as a
> strategist, and most of his posts in October were both useful
> and normal. In others, he slides into troll mode on responses.
+1
Also +1 to "Banning is not a good idea".
I remember 2 interesting "tips" that helped a lot in our community [1]:
4) be respectful of other's opinion: your email will be stored forever,
archived in several locations around the world, indexed by Google,
locked in magnetic tapes into the NSA caves and so on. Just keep this in
mind before you hit "send", this will keep your ego honest :)
5) admit your incapacity/ignorance/mistakes: there is nothing more
appreciated in a community that someone that can stand up and apologize
for something. Remember: if you don't make mistakes, you can't learn.
And if you don't admit you made it, nobody knows you are learning :)
Perhaps next time, try to send a remainer to this hints. ;-)
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo.
[1] http://cocoon.apache.org/community/mail-lists.html
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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 16 Dec 2005, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> On Dec 16, 2005, at 6:28 PM, Jean T. Anderson wrote:
>>> For crying out loud, would you please supply links to the exact posts
>>> you consider to be in poor taste and the person's name? I just wasted
>>> 10 minutes trying to follow the bread crumbs. You have to make it
>>> easier on reviewers -- everyone seems to be painfully avoiding
>>> a pointer to an actual message.
>>
>> sorry -- I'm not trying to frustrate folks. I considered posting specific
>> links, but withdrew them at the end, even though they are links to public
>> archives. The name at the core is Michael Segel.
>>
>> Below are links to public responses to some of his posts (which are
>> numerous enough that they alone would be frustrating to wade through):
>
> Well, yes, but what I asked for was the posts that you consider to be
> in poor taste, not responses to those posts. But now that I know who
> you are talking about I could use the view-by-author and see that this
> person is better than the typical troll with diarrhea of the fingers.
> He is usually right, even when though he would fail miserably as a
> strategist, and most of his posts in October were both useful
> and normal. In others, he slides into troll mode on responses.
>
> The answer is to ask your community not to feed the troll when it
> gets grumpy and just ignore him,
This is what we try to do on the Struts lists, where we have an annoying
troll who keeps claiming he's leaving for elsewhere but never actually
does it. Ignoring him doesn't keep him away, but it does keep him at bay,
minimising the continuation of threads from his posts onwards.
As someone else has pointed out, throwing someone off the list isn't
effective. For one thing, it's only going to get their back up even more,
and for another, they can just create a new mail account, perhaps with a
different name, and come right back. (Our Struts troll has at least 3
different identities that we know of.)
--
Martin Cooper
> and to limit discussion to the
> topic of the list. Yes, he is an annoying troll, but on balance
> he hasn't done anything truly disruptive or offensive that I could find.
>
> Personally, if I had been on the list when he started inventing big
> words about GPL and IBM, I would have flamed him to a crisp so badly
> that he would have unsubscribed (and I probably would have been
> banned outright). Your calls for politeness will only restrain those
> who care.
>
>> The last two were recent (this week). Off line communication makes me
>> believe he has no intention of moderating his behavior, hence the question
>> of at what point you unsubscribe/deny a user.
>
> When his presence is worse than his absence, you can deny him, but
> it is better to ask everyone in the community to simply shun him.
> He doesn't start off in troll mode.
>
>> One of the DB PMC members was asking about frequency of denial, which is an
>> excellent question, which Noel responded to with "Rarely. Really really
>> rarely." It's helpful for us to know how other projects at the ASF handle
>> such situations. I'm getting questions from users asking why we don't just
>> boot him. I'm happy to respond with "The ASF doesn't like to do that except
>> for the most extreme cases" if that is the right answer. This case is
>> merely very annoying, not extreme.
>>
>> I think ignoring is an excellent tactic for a developer's list. I worry
>> that isn't strong enough for a user's list, but I also wouldn't want to
>> embark on a path that could backfire.
>
> Then feel free to delete the users list. I am serious.
>
> ....Roy
>
>
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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 2005-12-17 at 09:07 -0800, Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> robert burrell donkin wrote:
> I'll look at the jakarta lists for how the OT FUD was handled.
LOL!
i hope you're going to be looking for anti-patterns :)
IIRC jakarta didn't exactly have a good record for avoiding flamewars.
back in the good old bad old days, general@jakarta used to be a high
octane list with an audience of thousands, scores of trolls and dozens
of committers with huge egos where anything which didn't seem likely to
start a flamewar was seemed to be considered off topic ;)
so, i wasn't really trying to advocate adopting the same approaches,
just proposing that it's possible to learn from our mistakes...
i'll try to explain the substance (of my last point) a little better
this time: if a flamewar is really necessary (which can sometimes be the
case if someone aggressively starts posting FUD which the ASF needs to
address) then it usually ends better if it's done by an outsider rather
than a developer who's regularly on list. now that the ASF has moved to
a flatter structure, it might be better for top level projects to raise
matters like that on here community rather than tackling it themselves.
- robert
Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@apache.org>.
robert burrell donkin wrote:
> ...
> i think perhaps that this is an issues of strategic aims verses
> effective tactics. a good atmosphere on the user list is vital and IMO
> jean is right to be concerned that those who could be contributing to
> the community are being scared away by the troll.
This is the crux of my concern. I'm not concerned about the people he
has personally poked so far -- they are seasoned developers who shrug
and roll their eyes. I grew concerned when I started receiving off list
questions that users didn't want to post on list and a couple outright
complaints that his behavior was inhibiting participation.
It's ironic because at the derby BoF at ApacheCon in Stuttgart two users
mentioned they prefer to send questions off lists to the key developers
because of flame wars (they didn't say which lists). I assured them that
derby didn't have flame problems -- famous last words. :-) We just
avoided it for a while.
All this feedback is helpful -- thanks to all (not just to Robert on
this reply). I'm convinced that unsubscribe/deny is a complete waste of
time and will abandon that notion.
I should mention that a couple ignore strategies we have used include
(1) respond to a post in the thread that raises a given issue without
including anything the troll has posted (2) delete the trollish phrases
in a reply. I think both of these are solid. I'll look at the jakarta
lists for how the OT FUD was handled.
thanks for all the tips and suggestions,
-jean
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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 2005-12-16 at 19:22 -0800, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> On Dec 16, 2005, at 6:28 PM, Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> >> For crying out loud, would you please supply links to the exact posts
> >> you consider to be in poor taste and the person's name? I just
> >> wasted
> >> 10 minutes trying to follow the bread crumbs. You have to make it
> >> easier on reviewers -- everyone seems to be painfully avoiding
> >> a pointer to an actual message.
> >
> > sorry -- I'm not trying to frustrate folks. I considered posting
> > specific links, but withdrew them at the end, even though they are
> > links to public archives. The name at the core is Michael Segel.
> >
> > Below are links to public responses to some of his posts (which are
> > numerous enough that they alone would be frustrating to wade through):
>
> Well, yes, but what I asked for was the posts that you consider to be
> in poor taste, not responses to those posts. But now that I know who
> you are talking about I could use the view-by-author and see that this
> person is better than the typical troll with diarrhea of the fingers.
> He is usually right, even when though he would fail miserably as a
> strategist, and most of his posts in October were both useful
> and normal. In others, he slides into troll mode on responses.
+1
he's actually seems well behaved for a troll. he does a reasonable job
of signalling when he thinks he's sliding into troll mode and does
answer user questions.
not only has banning been generally very ineffectual for trolls (it only
draws attention to them, gives them a grievance to use against you at
some later time and prevents worries about their reputation from
limiting their negative behaviour) but the presence of a manageable
troll prevents other, nastier trolls from invading you list. IIRC the
few times that banning has worked is against cross-marketing trolls
(typically these need to post under their actual names).
> The answer is to ask your community not to feed the troll when it
> gets grumpy and just ignore him, and to limit discussion to the
> topic of the list. Yes, he is an annoying troll, but on balance
> he hasn't done anything truly disruptive or offensive that I could find.
+1
AFAICT when he gets grumpy, he starts going off topic for the user list.
faced with a similar situation, i'd probably rename the troll part of
each thread to [OT] and ask him politely to continue the issue on the
dev list.
> Personally, if I had been on the list when he started inventing big
> words about GPL and IBM, I would have flamed him to a crisp so badly
> that he would have unsubscribed (and I probably would have been
> banned outright).
hehehe
all the flame retarding tags in the world wouldn't have saved him ;)
> Your calls for politeness will only restrain those
> who care.
i think perhaps that this is an issues of strategic aims verses
effective tactics. a good atmosphere on the user list is vital and IMO
jean is right to be concerned that those who could be contributing to
the community are being scared away by the troll.
IMHO this atmosphere is fostered best by the attitude of those
developers who regularly answer questions on the user list. asking (or
demanding) politeness will therefore probably be less effective than the
developers demonstrating politeness even in the face of provocation. so,
it's probably better to stop feeding the troll and to pointedly stick on
topic (for a user list which is helping users solve their problems and
not a critical debate about design). the energy saved can be more
effectively used reassuring users.
but there is some OT FUD that does really need addressing. it may be
necessary to tolerate some grumpiness in order to be able to effectively
draw a line in the sand which is unacceptable to cross. however, some
users can start to feel intimidated and insecure if someone who answers
a lot of user questions engages in a flame war. so, it can often more
effective for a relative outsider to handle an OT flamewar. (a little
like good cop, bad cop.)
before jakarta was flattened, there were a number of people who were
pretty good at spotting and tackling OT FUD. perhaps (as apache tries to
scale) we need to start highlighting more OT FUD issues on this list...
- robert
Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Mark Thomas wrote:
>>Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>>what thickness of skin should be required of participants on our lists?
>
>>Thick enough to take to criticism, whether it be right or wrong, and
>>to respond in a positive manner.
>>
>>Personal attacks of any form or degree are not acceptable behaviour
>>and therefore we should not require people to have thick enough skin
>>to ignore them.
>
> Can you elaborate on this, framing it in terms of policy and practice?
I'll try.
Policy:
1. Criticism must be constructive and include a justification.
2. Criticism must never be personal. Criticise the proposal, not the
person making it.
3. Personal attacks are never acceptable.
Practice:
Following the above, providing one counts to ten before responding to
the more inflammatory posts, isn't too difficult. The difficult part
is what to do when someone crosses the line. I don't think a standard
response can be developed as the right response will vary on a case by
case basis. Possible factors to consider when framing a response may
include context, motivation, nature of transgression, etc.
Generally I would advocate (in no particular order):
1. Lead by example (mainly aimed at committers).
2. Remember that Apache is world-wide community and that each person's
understanding of the nuances of the English language may be different.
3. Give people the benefit of the doubt. E-mail is a very impersonal
communication medium and it is very easy for something meant as an
off-hand joke to be seen as offensive. If a comment can be taken two
ways, assume the more positive one was intended.
4. Expect to make embarrassing mistakes and to have them pointed out
in public. This is the nature of open source.
5. If attacked, don't attack back.
6. Always be polite.
Mark
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RE: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Mark Thomas wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > what thickness of skin should be required of participants on our lists?
> Thick enough to take to criticism, whether it be right or wrong, and
> to respond in a positive manner.
> Personal attacks of any form or degree are not acceptable behaviour
> and therefore we should not require people to have thick enough skin
> to ignore them.
Can you elaborate on this, framing it in terms of policy and practice?
--- Noel
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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> We may disagree as his clueful:clueless ratio, but we can agree that he is
> just snarky. But on a related note, what thickness of skin should be
> required of participants on our lists?
Thick enough to take to criticism, whether it be right or wrong, and
to respond in a positive manner.
Personal attacks of any form or degree are not acceptable behaviour
and therefore we should not require people to have thick enough skin
to ignore them.
Mark
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RE: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> The answer is to ask your community not to feed the troll when it
> gets grumpy and just ignore him
> When his presence is worse than his absence, you can deny him, but
> it is better to ask everyone in the community to simply shun him.
Perhaps our netiquette FAQ should include telling readers how to configure a
kill-file for various mail readers. If you don't want to read someone,
kill-file them. That will lead to the obvious comment that you might see
some of their droppings in a reply, but that permits us to comment both on
proper quoting and on not feeding trolls.
> Yes, he is an annoying troll, but on balance he hasn't done anything
> truly disruptive or offensive that I could find.
We may disagree as his clueful:clueless ratio, but we can agree that he is
just snarky. But on a related note, what thickness of skin should be
required of participants on our lists?
--- Noel
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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
On Dec 16, 2005, at 6:28 PM, Jean T. Anderson wrote:
>> For crying out loud, would you please supply links to the exact posts
>> you consider to be in poor taste and the person's name? I just
>> wasted
>> 10 minutes trying to follow the bread crumbs. You have to make it
>> easier on reviewers -- everyone seems to be painfully avoiding
>> a pointer to an actual message.
>
> sorry -- I'm not trying to frustrate folks. I considered posting
> specific links, but withdrew them at the end, even though they are
> links to public archives. The name at the core is Michael Segel.
>
> Below are links to public responses to some of his posts (which are
> numerous enough that they alone would be frustrating to wade through):
Well, yes, but what I asked for was the posts that you consider to be
in poor taste, not responses to those posts. But now that I know who
you are talking about I could use the view-by-author and see that this
person is better than the typical troll with diarrhea of the fingers.
He is usually right, even when though he would fail miserably as a
strategist, and most of his posts in October were both useful
and normal. In others, he slides into troll mode on responses.
The answer is to ask your community not to feed the troll when it
gets grumpy and just ignore him, and to limit discussion to the
topic of the list. Yes, he is an annoying troll, but on balance
he hasn't done anything truly disruptive or offensive that I could find.
Personally, if I had been on the list when he started inventing big
words about GPL and IBM, I would have flamed him to a crisp so badly
that he would have unsubscribed (and I probably would have been
banned outright). Your calls for politeness will only restrain those
who care.
> The last two were recent (this week). Off line communication makes
> me believe he has no intention of moderating his behavior, hence
> the question of at what point you unsubscribe/deny a user.
When his presence is worse than his absence, you can deny him, but
it is better to ask everyone in the community to simply shun him.
He doesn't start off in troll mode.
> One of the DB PMC members was asking about frequency of denial,
> which is an excellent question, which Noel responded to with
> "Rarely. Really really rarely." It's helpful for us to know how
> other projects at the ASF handle such situations. I'm getting
> questions from users asking why we don't just boot him. I'm happy
> to respond with "The ASF doesn't like to do that except for the
> most extreme cases" if that is the right answer. This case is
> merely very annoying, not extreme.
>
> I think ignoring is an excellent tactic for a developer's list. I
> worry that isn't strong enough for a user's list, but I also
> wouldn't want to embark on a path that could backfire.
Then feel free to delete the users list. I am serious.
....Roy
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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@apache.org>.
Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> On Dec 16, 2005, at 5:17 PM, Jean T. Anderson wrote:
>
>> derby-user@db.apache.org has been grappling with someone who delights
>> in belittling other posters on the list. The topic was raised on
>> women@ (see the thread starting with http://mail-
>> archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-women/200511.mbox/%3c4371355F.
>> 90508@debrunners.com%3e ), but I think it's more appropriate for this
>> list.
>
>
> For crying out loud, would you please supply links to the exact posts
> you consider to be in poor taste and the person's name? I just wasted
> 10 minutes trying to follow the bread crumbs. You have to make it
> easier on reviewers -- everyone seems to be painfully avoiding
> a pointer to an actual message.
sorry -- I'm not trying to frustrate folks. I considered posting
specific links, but withdrew them at the end, even though they are links
to public archives. The name at the core is Michael Segel.
Below are links to public responses to some of his posts (which are
numerous enough that they alone would be frustrating to wade through):
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/db-derby-user/200508.mbox/%3C430DECF5.2070609@bristowhill.com%3E
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/db-derby-user/200510.mbox/%3c43622C54.8030502@sun.com%3e
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/db-derby-user/200511.mbox/%3C2EDE6E68-7660-467A-92F4-BC4858E44A3F@sun.com%3E
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/db-derby-user/200512.mbox/%3c439D9A71.4060905@bristowhill.com%3e
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/db-derby-user/200512.mbox/%3c439DC2A5.3010703@sun.com%3e
The first two posts were disassociated from the offending message and
the tactic clearly didn't work.
The last two were recent (this week). Off line communication makes me
believe he has no intention of moderating his behavior, hence the
question of at what point you unsubscribe/deny a user.
> In general, it is the responsibility of the PMC to govern its own
> lists. If the PMC decides to boot them, then go ahead. Most
> groups just shun the user.
One of the DB PMC members was asking about frequency of denial, which is
an excellent question, which Noel responded to with "Rarely. Really
really rarely." It's helpful for us to know how other projects at the
ASF handle such situations. I'm getting questions from users asking why
we don't just boot him. I'm happy to respond with "The ASF doesn't like
to do that except for the most extreme cases" if that is the right
answer. This case is merely very annoying, not extreme.
I think ignoring is an excellent tactic for a developer's list. I worry
that isn't strong enough for a user's list, but I also wouldn't want to
embark on a path that could backfire.
-jean
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Re: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
On Dec 16, 2005, at 5:17 PM, Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> derby-user@db.apache.org has been grappling with someone who
> delights in belittling other posters on the list. The topic was
> raised on women@ (see the thread starting with http://mail-
> archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-women/200511.mbox/%3c4371355F.
> 90508@debrunners.com%3e ), but I think it's more appropriate for
> this list.
For crying out loud, would you please supply links to the exact posts
you consider to be in poor taste and the person's name? I just wasted
10 minutes trying to follow the bread crumbs. You have to make it
easier on reviewers -- everyone seems to be painfully avoiding
a pointer to an actual message.
In general, it is the responsibility of the PMC to govern its own
lists. If the PMC decides to boot them, then go ahead. Most
groups just shun the user.
....Roy
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RE: At what point do you unsubscribe/deny a misbehaving user?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> derby-user@db.apache.org has been grappling with someone who delights in
> belittling other posters on the list.
> The topic was raised on women@ (see the thread starting with
>
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-women/200511.mbox/%3c4371355F.9
0508@debrunners.com%3e
Another good starting point would seem to be
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-women/200511.mbox/%3c4371566A.6
080108@bristowhill.com%3e, but I'd really like to see URLs to some of the
messages to which you are responding.
> I think it's more appropriate for this list.
Probably.
> if he does another personal attack on someone, I'd like to deny
> his ability to post for the following reasons
You can add his e-mail address to the deny list, but it can be hard to
really block someone, since they can get another address (or spoof one).
> 1) Am I being too protective of the user community?
Probably not. If users are complaining, there is an issue.
> 2) Have any other projects found a need to deny the ability for somebody
> to post?
Rarely. Really really rarely.
--- Noel
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