Advantages of Diversity and Inclusion

[Awasum Yannick <aw...@apache.org>]

Hi All,

Do we have resources on the advantages of D&I to the Foundation and Tech
industry in general?

I know this has been touched in different threads all over the lists but I
wanted a separate thread to really understand the advantages.

Is it about under represented people participating and contributing their
opinions and experience to make a project, product or community better?

I am interesting in the real benefit of D&I to people who are well
represented. What will motivate an over represented person to do D&I work?
Is there a logical advantage or benefit to them?

Sorry, if this is off topic but I have not been able to answer it from the
perspective of an over represented person. Because, I keep asking myself
why will someone who enjoy privilege be willing to change things if they
dont see a benefit for them(self interest).


Thanks.
Awasum.

Re: Advantages of Diversity and Inclusion

[Gris Cuevas <gr...@apache.org>]

On 2019/07/13 18:51:52, Awasum Yannick <aw...@apache.org> wrote: 
> Hi All,
> 
> I am interesting in the real benefit of D&I to people who are well
> represented. What will motivate an over represented person to do D&I work?
> Is there a logical advantage or benefit to them?
> 
> [...] Because, I keep asking myself
> why will someone who enjoy privilege be willing to change things if they
> dont see a benefit for them(self interest).


Hi Awasum, 

I like the intent of your question, working on articulating the need of a more inclusive and diverse ASF is the goals I have for this committee in 2019. 
(For context I started [1] & [2] JIRAs to collect input on fundamental information to do this). 

You asked: 

> Do we have resources on the advantages of D&I to the Foundation and Tech
> industry in general?

The short answer is we do have some resources, and Justin, Myrle and Niclas have shared examples and some data points. However we do not have hard scientific data and that's why we want to work on the three projects we have pitched to the board and president: 1) A survey to collect quantitative data, 2) a research to collect qualitative data and 3) a complimentary practical research (Outreachy) to compliment qualitative data.

My intention is that at the end of 2019 we can have this input to articulate the value of a more diverse and inclusive community to the Foundation and its projects. 

In the meantime, I can share this deck [3], which has an articulated story on why I'm organizing an OSS contributor summit in Latin America with the objective to increase Latinx representation in OSS. I share the benefits for the ecosystem and the individuals. These benefits could be the arguments you're looking for. 

I can also recommend you look at the work done by the folks in CHAOSS [5] who have started to lay the ground on measuring the impact of D&I effort in tech. 

If you want to help build these resources, joining the committee would be a good idea.

Cheers, 
G

[1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/projects/DI/issues/DI-5
[2] https://issues.apache.org/jira/projects/DI/issues/DI-6
[3] https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1axdjBtPCOtWX-lwtMGGNez_xt7HPjLZUHXrEQY0Sato/edit#slide=id.g5d1e7ea227_7_0
[4] https://chaoss.community/

Re: Advantages of Diversity and Inclusion

[Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>]

On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 6:25 PM Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:

> Yes, I am thinking about the China originating projects. My point was that
> the remain China-dominated for a long time, and it is not because they are
> unwelcoming to straight white males, nor that the straight white males are
> sensitive, or have issues getting to computers on campus that was suggested
> somewhere.
>
> My point is, and I think this is highly relevant to the D&I effort, is that
> I suspect that "project origin" is much more important than anything else.
> And practically all ASF projects originates outside the ASF, which is part
> of how we do things. And the question would then rise; Who starts projects
> elsewhere? What are the demographics there? Why do some of those get
> traction? Why do some come to ASF?
>

Hey Niclas,

I suspect you're right about project origin playing an important role in
the make up of a community.

Currently however both you and I are basing that assertion on anecdotal
evidence (and Justin is basing it on name-based guessing which is probably
slightly better).  I would like us to get a more precise view of our
current situation.  More details might bring a few surprises, and might
help us find potential paths to increase our diversity.  Exploring these
questions is the purpose of the survey re-design.  Are you interested in
participating?

And if we *are* right, this would make the incubator an important source of
overall diversity at the ASF, and would also make the projects among each
other a potential source of diversity within projects.  Knowing this could
help us decide which avenues to explore in the search for solutions.

Best Regards,
Myrle

Re: Advantages of Diversity and Inclusion

[Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>]

Yes, I am thinking about the China originating projects. My point was that
the remain China-dominated for a long time, and it is not because they are
unwelcoming to straight white males, nor that the straight white males are
sensitive, or have issues getting to computers on campus that was suggested
somewhere.

My point is, and I think this is highly relevant to the D&I effort, is that
I suspect that "project origin" is much more important than anything else.
And practically all ASF projects originates outside the ASF, which is part
of how we do things. And the question would then rise; Who starts projects
elsewhere? What are the demographics there? Why do some of those get
traction? Why do some come to ASF?

Niclas

On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 9:52 AM Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > c) straight, white males is an under represented group in some projects
>
> I’d be curious to know which projects, (Perhaps ones, originating out of
> China like Dubbo?) but I’m not sure it’s hugely relevant if that's is only
> a few projects out of the 200+ we have.
>
> Some actual data. I did some analysis of the 7000 or so committer names,
> which can clearly indicate gender. There's not a single project that has
> more than 25% females on it. The average is 95% male.
>
> You can also make some analysis of ethnicity based on names and while I’ve
> not done this in detail, but a quick check shows (of 2000 committers) shows
> 65% of committers have European names.
>
> I let you draw your own conclusions from that. My personal conclusion is
> that there is an issue here at the ASF and further study is needed to work
> out why this might be so. Hence the survey done a few years back [1] and
> the new one being planned.  The results above match with the old survey
> where responses indicated 5% women and 67% caucasian/white which is not
> typical of our industry as a whole or other foundations.
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
>
> 1.
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016



-- 
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://polygene.apache.org - New Energy for Java

Re: Advantages of Diversity and Inclusion

[Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com>]

Hi,

> c) straight, white males is an under represented group in some projects

I’d be curious to know which projects, (Perhaps ones, originating out of China like Dubbo?) but I’m not sure it’s hugely relevant if that's is only a few projects out of the 200+ we have.

Some actual data. I did some analysis of the 7000 or so committer names, which can clearly indicate gender. There's not a single project that has more than 25% females on it. The average is 95% male. 

You can also make some analysis of ethnicity based on names and while I’ve not done this in detail, but a quick check shows (of 2000 committers) shows 65% of committers have European names.

I let you draw your own conclusions from that. My personal conclusion is that there is an issue here at the ASF and further study is needed to work out why this might be so. Hence the survey done a few years back [1] and the new one being planned.  The results above match with the old survey where responses indicated 5% women and 67% caucasian/white which is not typical of our industry as a whole or other foundations.

Thanks,
Justin

1. https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016

Re: Advantages of Diversity and Inclusion

[Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>]

On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 11:11 PM Jim Jagielski <ji...@apache.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 2019/07/14 06:11:46, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Nicolas,
> >
>
> > A great example of this is ASCII. The developers (English
> > speakers in the US in the late 50's and early 60's) saw no real problem
> > with omitting ü, å, ø and ñ.
>
> Certainly some of that was likely the limitation of the technology itself,
> what with 8 bit chars. It was including the lowest common denominator that
> fit within a technology derived limit. Also, I you design something just
> for English speaking people, for example, and what you create becomes so
> popular that others wish to use it, I’m not sure if you can assign 20/20
> hindsight.
>

8 bits is plenty for something like ISO-8859-1 to support a large swathe of
these characters.

There was a small advantage in terms of character lookup size. Of course,
devices didn't actually need to display all the characters.

There was a small advantage in terms of the ability to use the high order
bit for control purposes. But that was minuscule.

On the other hand, I lived through the conversion and it was very painful.
I was working on machine translation, information retrieval and language
coding problems. We still have problems with all kinds of character sets
because the first solutions were so broken.

So yes, designing for just English speakers is a great example of having
limited goals because you have smaller diversity in your goal setters. And
it is a great example of how things would have been easier if we had
started with a broader awareness of what people needed.

Re: Advantages of Diversity and Inclusion

[Jim Jagielski <ji...@apache.org>]

On 2019/07/14 06:11:46, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> Nicolas,
> 

> A great example of this is ASCII. The developers (English
> speakers in the US in the late 50's and early 60's) saw no real problem
> with omitting ü, å, ø and ñ. 

Certainly some of that was likely the limitation of the technology itself, what with 8 bit chars. It was including the lowest common denominator that fit within a technology derived limit. Also, I you design something just for English speaking people, for example, and what you create becomes so popular that others wish to use it, I’m not sure if you can assign 20/20 hindsight. 

Re: Advantages of Diversity and Inclusion

[Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>]

Niclas,

Interesting that you mention projects like Kylin because I was a champion
and mentor for Kylin. And for Singa. In large part, my motivation in doing
so was to increase the diversity of projects in Apache.


On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 9:31 AM Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:

> Yes, I was referring to Kylin et al.
>
> And I see that you also completely missed my point, not even attempting to
> see it, but I won't beat dead horses.
>
> Niclas
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 2:12 PM Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Nicolas,
> >
> > We do have enormous parts of the world which do not participate much in
> > Apache (and thus are isolated)
> >
> > There are limits to participation ... perhaps not EXplicit limits, but
> > there are definitely IMplicit limitations.
> >
> > And please provide some basis for your claim that there are Apache
> projects
> > are do not have a majority of straight white males. In fact, I will up
> the
> > ante .. let's say straight white males from the US and western Europe.
> Are
> > you thinking of a few groups like Singa or Kylin that have a surprisingly
> > large number of participants from Asia? Those are almost the exception
> that
> > proves the rule.
> >
> > And, by the way, the argument for diversity is a bit more substantial
> than
> > your strawman argument. The real argument is that diverse experience and
> > expertise leads to better solutions because with a community made up of
> > nearly identical members, these members will tend to have very similar
> > blindspots. A great example of this is ASCII. The developers (English
> > speakers in the US in the late 50's and early 60's) saw no real problem
> > with omitting ü, å, ø and ñ. Even when the community broadened to include
> > speakers of German, Danish, French, Spanish, Swedish and other languages,
> > it took many decades to correct the limitations of ASCII. More diversity
> > earlier would have saved some of that pain. I have seen many other
> examples
> > in my career where early designs had horrendous problems that could have
> > easily been avoided with a bit broader set of points of view. A
> > mono-culture may get started more quickly and be more comfortable early
> on,
> > but a diverse community is likely to give us a much better result.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 6:14 PM Niclas Hedhman <ni...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > > The argument goes something like this (strawman warning); By expanding
> > our
> > > communities with identifiably under-represented groups (that should
> have
> > an
> > > interest in what the ASF is doing) will bring additional points of
> view,
> > > new ideas, ways to do things, cultural input to the software and such.
> > >
> > > Personally, I don't think our communities are like society as a whole,
> > > because a) we are not isolated geographically, b) has no limitation on
> > > joining our efforts and c) straight, white males is an under
> represented
> > > group in some projects, and answering "why?" for that, will most likely
> > > answer the question on a broader scale for what makes ASF different.
> But
> > > that is probably a too sensitive topic to touch on...
> > >
> > > Niclas
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 2:52 AM Awasum Yannick <aw...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi All,
> > > >
> > > > Do we have resources on the advantages of D&I to the Foundation and
> > Tech
> > > > industry in general?
> > > >
> > > > I know this has been touched in different threads all over the lists
> > but
> > > I
> > > > wanted a separate thread to really understand the advantages.
> > > >
> > > > Is it about under represented people participating and contributing
> > their
> > > > opinions and experience to make a project, product or community
> better?
> > > >
> > > > I am interesting in the real benefit of D&I to people who are well
> > > > represented. What will motivate an over represented person to do D&I
> > > work?
> > > > Is there a logical advantage or benefit to them?
> > > >
> > > > Sorry, if this is off topic but I have not been able to answer it
> from
> > > the
> > > > perspective of an over represented person. Because, I keep asking
> > myself
> > > > why will someone who enjoy privilege be willing to change things if
> > they
> > > > dont see a benefit for them(self interest).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks.
> > > > Awasum.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> > > http://polygene.apache.org - New Energy for Java
> > >
> >
>
>
> --
> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> http://polygene.apache.org - New Energy for Java
>

Re: Advantages of Diversity and Inclusion

[Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>]

Hey Niclas,

Your comment to Ted below assumed ill-will, was redundant to your previous
comments, and seems likely to provoke an angry response.

dev@diversity is a working list intended for coordinating tasks such as
survey design, and Outreachy coordination.  I would ask two things of you:
a.) That you move your discussion about the justification of a diversity
effort at Apache to diversity@apache.org.
b.) That you make it a personal goal to engage constructively, with the
intention both to learn and to teach, and with the assumption that you are
able to do both.

If you want to better understand my first request: This is akin to my
asking you to move a question about how NetBeans is better than Eclipse to
the user@netbeans list.  diversity@apache.org is intended for questions and
requests by consumers and potential consumers of the work product of the
Diversity group.

Best Regards,
Myrle

BTW: I was the moderator who rejected your previous comment to private@.  I
have decided that was a mistake on my part.  Because the Diversity group
had not chosen to place you "on moderation," moderating your comment was an
overstep on my part.  If you *had* been "on moderation", I would have
rejected the comment below for the reasons I have described in this
e-mail.  However you would still have had the opportunity to rephrase your
e-mail and resend it.

On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 6:31 PM Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:

> Yes, I was referring to Kylin et al.
>
> And I see that you also completely missed my point, not even attempting to
> see it, but I won't beat dead horses.
>
> Niclas
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 2:12 PM Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Nicolas,
> >
> > We do have enormous parts of the world which do not participate much in
> > Apache (and thus are isolated)
> >
> > There are limits to participation ... perhaps not EXplicit limits, but
> > there are definitely IMplicit limitations.
> >
> > And please provide some basis for your claim that there are Apache
> projects
> > are do not have a majority of straight white males. In fact, I will up
> the
> > ante .. let's say straight white males from the US and western Europe.
> Are
> > you thinking of a few groups like Singa or Kylin that have a surprisingly
> > large number of participants from Asia? Those are almost the exception
> that
> > proves the rule.
> >
> > And, by the way, the argument for diversity is a bit more substantial
> than
> > your strawman argument. The real argument is that diverse experience and
> > expertise leads to better solutions because with a community made up of
> > nearly identical members, these members will tend to have very similar
> > blindspots. A great example of this is ASCII. The developers (English
> > speakers in the US in the late 50's and early 60's) saw no real problem
> > with omitting ü, å, ø and ñ. Even when the community broadened to include
> > speakers of German, Danish, French, Spanish, Swedish and other languages,
> > it took many decades to correct the limitations of ASCII. More diversity
> > earlier would have saved some of that pain. I have seen many other
> examples
> > in my career where early designs had horrendous problems that could have
> > easily been avoided with a bit broader set of points of view. A
> > mono-culture may get started more quickly and be more comfortable early
> on,
> > but a diverse community is likely to give us a much better result.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 6:14 PM Niclas Hedhman <ni...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > > The argument goes something like this (strawman warning); By expanding
> > our
> > > communities with identifiably under-represented groups (that should
> have
> > an
> > > interest in what the ASF is doing) will bring additional points of
> view,
> > > new ideas, ways to do things, cultural input to the software and such.
> > >
> > > Personally, I don't think our communities are like society as a whole,
> > > because a) we are not isolated geographically, b) has no limitation on
> > > joining our efforts and c) straight, white males is an under
> represented
> > > group in some projects, and answering "why?" for that, will most likely
> > > answer the question on a broader scale for what makes ASF different.
> But
> > > that is probably a too sensitive topic to touch on...
> > >
> > > Niclas
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 2:52 AM Awasum Yannick <aw...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi All,
> > > >
> > > > Do we have resources on the advantages of D&I to the Foundation and
> > Tech
> > > > industry in general?
> > > >
> > > > I know this has been touched in different threads all over the lists
> > but
> > > I
> > > > wanted a separate thread to really understand the advantages.
> > > >
> > > > Is it about under represented people participating and contributing
> > their
> > > > opinions and experience to make a project, product or community
> better?
> > > >
> > > > I am interesting in the real benefit of D&I to people who are well
> > > > represented. What will motivate an over represented person to do D&I
> > > work?
> > > > Is there a logical advantage or benefit to them?
> > > >
> > > > Sorry, if this is off topic but I have not been able to answer it
> from
> > > the
> > > > perspective of an over represented person. Because, I keep asking
> > myself
> > > > why will someone who enjoy privilege be willing to change things if
> > they
> > > > dont see a benefit for them(self interest).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks.
> > > > Awasum.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> > > http://polygene.apache.org - New Energy for Java
> > >
> >
>
>
> --
> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> http://polygene.apache.org - New Energy for Java
>

Re: Advantages of Diversity and Inclusion

[Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>]

Yes, I was referring to Kylin et al.

And I see that you also completely missed my point, not even attempting to
see it, but I won't beat dead horses.

Niclas



On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 2:12 PM Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Nicolas,
>
> We do have enormous parts of the world which do not participate much in
> Apache (and thus are isolated)
>
> There are limits to participation ... perhaps not EXplicit limits, but
> there are definitely IMplicit limitations.
>
> And please provide some basis for your claim that there are Apache projects
> are do not have a majority of straight white males. In fact, I will up the
> ante .. let's say straight white males from the US and western Europe. Are
> you thinking of a few groups like Singa or Kylin that have a surprisingly
> large number of participants from Asia? Those are almost the exception that
> proves the rule.
>
> And, by the way, the argument for diversity is a bit more substantial than
> your strawman argument. The real argument is that diverse experience and
> expertise leads to better solutions because with a community made up of
> nearly identical members, these members will tend to have very similar
> blindspots. A great example of this is ASCII. The developers (English
> speakers in the US in the late 50's and early 60's) saw no real problem
> with omitting ü, å, ø and ñ. Even when the community broadened to include
> speakers of German, Danish, French, Spanish, Swedish and other languages,
> it took many decades to correct the limitations of ASCII. More diversity
> earlier would have saved some of that pain. I have seen many other examples
> in my career where early designs had horrendous problems that could have
> easily been avoided with a bit broader set of points of view. A
> mono-culture may get started more quickly and be more comfortable early on,
> but a diverse community is likely to give us a much better result.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 6:14 PM Niclas Hedhman <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > The argument goes something like this (strawman warning); By expanding
> our
> > communities with identifiably under-represented groups (that should have
> an
> > interest in what the ASF is doing) will bring additional points of view,
> > new ideas, ways to do things, cultural input to the software and such.
> >
> > Personally, I don't think our communities are like society as a whole,
> > because a) we are not isolated geographically, b) has no limitation on
> > joining our efforts and c) straight, white males is an under represented
> > group in some projects, and answering "why?" for that, will most likely
> > answer the question on a broader scale for what makes ASF different. But
> > that is probably a too sensitive topic to touch on...
> >
> > Niclas
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 2:52 AM Awasum Yannick <aw...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > Do we have resources on the advantages of D&I to the Foundation and
> Tech
> > > industry in general?
> > >
> > > I know this has been touched in different threads all over the lists
> but
> > I
> > > wanted a separate thread to really understand the advantages.
> > >
> > > Is it about under represented people participating and contributing
> their
> > > opinions and experience to make a project, product or community better?
> > >
> > > I am interesting in the real benefit of D&I to people who are well
> > > represented. What will motivate an over represented person to do D&I
> > work?
> > > Is there a logical advantage or benefit to them?
> > >
> > > Sorry, if this is off topic but I have not been able to answer it from
> > the
> > > perspective of an over represented person. Because, I keep asking
> myself
> > > why will someone who enjoy privilege be willing to change things if
> they
> > > dont see a benefit for them(self interest).
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > > Awasum.
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> > http://polygene.apache.org - New Energy for Java
> >
>


-- 
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://polygene.apache.org - New Energy for Java

Re: Advantages of Diversity and Inclusion

[Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>]

Nicolas,

We do have enormous parts of the world which do not participate much in
Apache (and thus are isolated)

There are limits to participation ... perhaps not EXplicit limits, but
there are definitely IMplicit limitations.

And please provide some basis for your claim that there are Apache projects
are do not have a majority of straight white males. In fact, I will up the
ante .. let's say straight white males from the US and western Europe. Are
you thinking of a few groups like Singa or Kylin that have a surprisingly
large number of participants from Asia? Those are almost the exception that
proves the rule.

And, by the way, the argument for diversity is a bit more substantial than
your strawman argument. The real argument is that diverse experience and
expertise leads to better solutions because with a community made up of
nearly identical members, these members will tend to have very similar
blindspots. A great example of this is ASCII. The developers (English
speakers in the US in the late 50's and early 60's) saw no real problem
with omitting ü, å, ø and ñ. Even when the community broadened to include
speakers of German, Danish, French, Spanish, Swedish and other languages,
it took many decades to correct the limitations of ASCII. More diversity
earlier would have saved some of that pain. I have seen many other examples
in my career where early designs had horrendous problems that could have
easily been avoided with a bit broader set of points of view. A
mono-culture may get started more quickly and be more comfortable early on,
but a diverse community is likely to give us a much better result.







On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 6:14 PM Niclas Hedhman <ni...@apache.org> wrote:

> The argument goes something like this (strawman warning); By expanding our
> communities with identifiably under-represented groups (that should have an
> interest in what the ASF is doing) will bring additional points of view,
> new ideas, ways to do things, cultural input to the software and such.
>
> Personally, I don't think our communities are like society as a whole,
> because a) we are not isolated geographically, b) has no limitation on
> joining our efforts and c) straight, white males is an under represented
> group in some projects, and answering "why?" for that, will most likely
> answer the question on a broader scale for what makes ASF different. But
> that is probably a too sensitive topic to touch on...
>
> Niclas
>
> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 2:52 AM Awasum Yannick <aw...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Do we have resources on the advantages of D&I to the Foundation and Tech
> > industry in general?
> >
> > I know this has been touched in different threads all over the lists but
> I
> > wanted a separate thread to really understand the advantages.
> >
> > Is it about under represented people participating and contributing their
> > opinions and experience to make a project, product or community better?
> >
> > I am interesting in the real benefit of D&I to people who are well
> > represented. What will motivate an over represented person to do D&I
> work?
> > Is there a logical advantage or benefit to them?
> >
> > Sorry, if this is off topic but I have not been able to answer it from
> the
> > perspective of an over represented person. Because, I keep asking myself
> > why will someone who enjoy privilege be willing to change things if they
> > dont see a benefit for them(self interest).
> >
> >
> > Thanks.
> > Awasum.
> >
>
>
> --
> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> http://polygene.apache.org - New Energy for Java
>

Re: Advantages of Diversity and Inclusion

[Niclas Hedhman <ni...@apache.org>]

The argument goes something like this (strawman warning); By expanding our
communities with identifiably under-represented groups (that should have an
interest in what the ASF is doing) will bring additional points of view,
new ideas, ways to do things, cultural input to the software and such.

Personally, I don't think our communities are like society as a whole,
because a) we are not isolated geographically, b) has no limitation on
joining our efforts and c) straight, white males is an under represented
group in some projects, and answering "why?" for that, will most likely
answer the question on a broader scale for what makes ASF different. But
that is probably a too sensitive topic to touch on...

Niclas

On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 2:52 AM Awasum Yannick <aw...@apache.org> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Do we have resources on the advantages of D&I to the Foundation and Tech
> industry in general?
>
> I know this has been touched in different threads all over the lists but I
> wanted a separate thread to really understand the advantages.
>
> Is it about under represented people participating and contributing their
> opinions and experience to make a project, product or community better?
>
> I am interesting in the real benefit of D&I to people who are well
> represented. What will motivate an over represented person to do D&I work?
> Is there a logical advantage or benefit to them?
>
> Sorry, if this is off topic but I have not been able to answer it from the
> perspective of an over represented person. Because, I keep asking myself
> why will someone who enjoy privilege be willing to change things if they
> dont see a benefit for them(self interest).
>
>
> Thanks.
> Awasum.
>


-- 
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://polygene.apache.org - New Energy for Java