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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com> on 2008/01/12 15:10:14 UTC
Process Question: Draft Mentors Onto IPMC...? [WAS: [docs] Started pre-drafting]
On Jan 12, 2008 2:00 PM, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 1, 2008 4:58 PM, Robert Burrell Donkin
> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 31, 2007 9:14 PM, Craig L Russell <Cr...@sun.com> wrote:
<snip>
> > > It would be good if
> > > we update this guide to be as complete as the http://
> > > incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html guide.
> > >
> > > WDYT?
> >
> > +1
> >
> > get cracking :-)
>
> i've started to pull something together by writing up what i need to
> do to set RAT up. see
> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/mentor.html#bootstrap. it's at a
> very early stage. i'll try to update as i go rather than wait and
> write up. so feel free to jump in with patches.
1. IIRC mentors are drafted onto the IPMC. do i recall correctly?
2. or, is it just that mentors who are members need to ask for
themselves to be added?
3. does this need to be the first step in podling creation?
- robert
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RE: Process Question: Draft Mentors Onto IPMC...? [WAS: [docs] Started pre-drafting]
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> AFAIR, Mentors must be Incubator PMC members.
Correct.
> For ASF Members to be Mentors, they ask to be added to the IPMC.
> For non-Members, they must [be] voted into the IPMC> prior to
> becoming Mentors.
Also correct.
--- Noel
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Re: Process Question: Draft Mentors Onto IPMC...? [WAS: [docs] Started pre-drafting]
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Saturday 12 January 2008 22:10, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> 1. IIRC mentors are drafted onto the IPMC. do i recall correctly?
> 2. or, is it just that mentors who are members need to ask for
> themselves to be added?
> 3. does this need to be the first step in podling creation?
AFAIR, Mentors must be Incubator PMC members. For ASF Members to be Mentors,
they ask to be added to the IPMC. For non-Members, they must have already
been voted into the IPMC prior to becoming Mentors.
Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
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Re: Process Question: Draft Mentors Onto IPMC...? [WAS: [docs] Started pre-drafting]
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Jan 16, 2008 11:17 PM, Craig L Russell <Cr...@sun.com> wrote:
> The wording in the Policy was deliberately non-procedural, as the
> Incubator PMC decided that policy belongs in the policy document and
> process belongs elsewhere. So as far as I'm concerned, this discussion
> is not supposed to have an answer.
ok
i've added a step to
http://incubator.apache.org/guides/mentor.html#bootstrap. mentors are
going to need incubator karma so really should apply ASAP. take a look
and see if it's ok.
> So Bill's analysis is as valid as anyone else's. I'd suggest that one
> of the discussion issues for a proposal for a new podling is to look
> at the proposed Mentors and discuss whether the proposed Mentors
> should be voted into the incubator PMC before the proposal itself is
> voted on. Not policy, mind you. Just something for those who know to
> know.
+1
- robert
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Re: Process Question: Draft Mentors Onto IPMC...? [WAS: [docs] Started
pre-drafting]
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
The wording in the Policy was deliberately non-procedural, as the
Incubator PMC decided that policy belongs in the policy document and
process belongs elsewhere. So as far as I'm concerned, this discussion
is not supposed to have an answer.
So Bill's analysis is as valid as anyone else's. I'd suggest that one
of the discussion issues for a proposal for a new podling is to look
at the proposed Mentors and discuss whether the proposed Mentors
should be voted into the incubator PMC before the proposal itself is
voted on. Not policy, mind you. Just something for those who know to
know.
Craig
On Jan 16, 2008, at 2:38 PM, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
>> the IPMC votes on a proposal including the names of nominated
>> Mentors.
>> one of the proposed Mentors must be an Apache member. the others MUST
>> be members of the IPMC.
>> are we saying that:
>> either A) as a result of the proposal vote, nominated Mentors are
>> drafted on the IPMC by virtue of that vote
>> or B) that once the vote is passed propective Mentors need to ask
>> for election to the IPMC. any which are rejected must withdraw,
>> A or B seem to me to be mutally exclusive. which is it to be?
>
> They do, don't they? I'd suggest the answer is C) they must be IPMC
> members to float their names as mentors. This is so easily remedied
> for ASF members that it's not an issue. As for non-Member IPMC folks,
> I continue to argue that its generally not a wise idea in the first
> place, and the last membership nominations backed up my opinion.
>
> This shouldn't discourage people from offering to help, but Mentor
> has a very specific meaning that requires some experience, which being
> a Member already validates, and previously serving on an existing PMC
> hints at. Helpers of all sorts are always welcome in new podlings as
> they find their ASF legs and set off on their quest to become TLPs.
>
> Bill
>
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>
Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: Process Question: Draft Mentors Onto IPMC...? [WAS: [docs] Started
pre-drafting]
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
>
> the IPMC votes on a proposal including the names of nominated Mentors.
> one of the proposed Mentors must be an Apache member. the others MUST
> be members of the IPMC.
>
> are we saying that:
>
> either A) as a result of the proposal vote, nominated Mentors are
> drafted on the IPMC by virtue of that vote
> or B) that once the vote is passed propective Mentors need to ask
> for election to the IPMC. any which are rejected must withdraw,
>
> A or B seem to me to be mutally exclusive. which is it to be?
They do, don't they? I'd suggest the answer is C) they must be IPMC
members to float their names as mentors. This is so easily remedied
for ASF members that it's not an issue. As for non-Member IPMC folks,
I continue to argue that its generally not a wise idea in the first
place, and the last membership nominations backed up my opinion.
This shouldn't discourage people from offering to help, but Mentor
has a very specific meaning that requires some experience, which being
a Member already validates, and previously serving on an existing PMC
hints at. Helpers of all sorts are always welcome in new podlings as
they find their ASF legs and set off on their quest to become TLPs.
Bill
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RE: Process Question: Draft Mentors Onto IPMC...? [WAS: [docs] Started pre-drafting]
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > > 1. IIRC mentors are drafted onto the IPMC. do i recall correctly?
> > > Yep, although that's subject to a vote so they could be rejected.
Unless
> > > they're members.
> >
> > Not quite entirely accurate. As a matter of Incubator PMC policy, ASF
> > Members can become Incubator PMC Members upon their request and Board
> > acknowledgement, however there is provision for calling a vote on the
issue.
> > It has never been invoked, but does exist.
> >
> > > A non-member can mentor as well as long as there's also a member
mentor
> > > for the podling.
> >
> > And if the non-Member has been elected to the Incubator PMC.
> let me go through this one more time...
:-)
> A Podling has one or more Mentors, one of which MUST be an Apache
> Member.
OK
> Mentors are chosen by the Sponsor [...]
That's a bit dubious, actually. See below.
> All Mentors must be members of the Incubator PMC.
Correct. And the phrasing could be "Mentors are members of the Incubator
PMC who are chosen to ..."
> the IPMC votes on a proposal including the names of nominated Mentors.
> one of the proposed Mentors must be an Apache member. the others MUST
> be members of the IPMC.
OK.
> are we saying that:
> either A) as a result of the proposal vote, nominated Mentors are
> drafted on the IPMC by virtue of that vote
They are not Mentors until/unless they are elected to the Incubator PMC.
That is not part and parcel of a vote called to incubate a project. The
vote would have to be explicitly put forth as an omnibus vote, which I might
well vote against on principle. Hence my comment above about the dubious
comment about being chosen by the Sponsor.
> or B) that once the vote is passed propective Mentors need to ask
> for election to the IPMC.
Anyone who isn't an Incubator PMC Member and wants to be a Mentor, must seek
election to the Incubator PMC. And I don't consider it to be a low barrier
to entry election.
--- Noel
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Re: Process Question: Draft Mentors Onto IPMC...? [WAS: [docs] Started pre-drafting]
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Jan 13, 2008 10:47 PM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> > > 1. IIRC mentors are drafted onto the IPMC. do i recall correctly?
> > Yep, although that's subject to a vote so they could be rejected. Unless
> > they're members.
>
> Not quite entirely accurate. As a matter of Incubator PMC policy, ASF
> Members can become Incubator PMC Members upon their request and Board
> acknowledgement, however there is provision for calling a vote on the issue.
> It has never been invoked, but does exist.
>
> A non-member can mentor as well as long as there's also a member mentor
> > for the podling.
>
> And if the non-Member has been elected to the Incubator PMC.
let me go through this one more time...
policy states:
<blockquote cite='http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html#Mentor'>
A Podling has one or more Mentors, one of which MUST be an Apache
Member. Mentors are chosen by the Sponsor to actively monitor the
podling, guide the podling in the Apache Way, and report its status
to the Sponsor and the Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be members of
the Incubator PMC. A Mentor has responsibilities toward the Incubator
PMC, the Sponsor, and the community of the assigned Podling.
</blockquote>
the IPMC votes on a proposal including the names of nominated Mentors.
one of the proposed Mentors must be an Apache member. the others MUST
be members of the IPMC.
are we saying that:
either A) as a result of the proposal vote, nominated Mentors are
drafted on the IPMC by virtue of that vote
or B) that once the vote is passed propective Mentors need to ask
for election to the IPMC. any which are rejected must withdraw,
A or B seem to me to be mutally exclusive. which is it to be?
- robert
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RE: Process Question: Draft Mentors Onto IPMC...? [WAS: [docs] Started pre-drafting]
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> > 1. IIRC mentors are drafted onto the IPMC. do i recall correctly?
> Yep, although that's subject to a vote so they could be rejected. Unless
> they're members.
Not quite entirely accurate. As a matter of Incubator PMC policy, ASF
Members can become Incubator PMC Members upon their request and Board
acknowledgement, however there is provision for calling a vote on the issue.
It has never been invoked, but does exist.
A non-member can mentor as well as long as there's also a member mentor
> for the podling.
And if the non-Member has been elected to the Incubator PMC.
--- Noel
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Re: Process Question: Draft Mentors Onto IPMC...? [WAS: [docs] Started pre-drafting]
Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@offthelip.org>.
On Jan 12, 2008 6:10 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin <
robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 12, 2008 2:00 PM, Robert Burrell Donkin
> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 1, 2008 4:58 PM, Robert Burrell Donkin
> > <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Dec 31, 2007 9:14 PM, Craig L Russell <Cr...@sun.com>
> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > > > It would be good if
> > > > we update this guide to be as complete as the http://
> > > > incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html guide.
> > > >
> > > > WDYT?
> > >
> > > +1
> > >
> > > get cracking :-)
> >
> > i've started to pull something together by writing up what i need to
> > do to set RAT up. see
> > http://incubator.apache.org/guides/mentor.html#bootstrap. it's at a
> > very early stage. i'll try to update as i go rather than wait and
> > write up. so feel free to jump in with patches.
>
> 1. IIRC mentors are drafted onto the IPMC. do i recall correctly?
Yep, although that's subject to a vote so they could be rejected. Unless
they're members.
2. or, is it just that mentors who are members need to ask for
> themselves to be added?
That too I think. Members and non-members are two different cases. A non
member can mentor as well as long as there's also a member mentor for the
podling.
>
> 3. does this need to be the first step in podling creation?
>
Dunno, the timing is tricky because if the candidate is not a member (like I
was) he/she needs to be voted IPMC first. I guess if he/she gets rejected
then a new mentor can be found to get the minimum of 3.
Matthieu
> - robert
>
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>