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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by Henri Yandell <ba...@apache.org> on 2005/03/19 19:18:21 UTC
[draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Due to the timeliness of this, I plan to send it Sunday night. Given that
we're on a weekend, I doubt it will be read until Monday.
Any opinions?
-------------
To: kadams@cmp.com
Cc: board@apache.org
Subject: Tomcat 5.0 error in JOLT announcement
Hi Kate,
I'm writing to let you know about a serious error on your JOLT product
excellence awards press release, and I assume in your forthcoming June
2005 issue:
http://www.sdmagazine.com/pressroom/jolt_winners_2005.pdf
You've incorrectly attributed Apache's Tomcat 5.0 product to "The Apache
Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss".
There are two, very big, problems with this.
The first is that Apache does not have a concept of leading contributors,
it is completely out of sync with the very philosophies that lie at the
heart of the Apache Software Foundation (ASF).
The second is that JBoss are not a contributor to Tomcat. Two Tomcat
committers are employed by JBoss Inc, but they commit to projects at the
ASF as individuals and not as members of a company. This is true of all
committers to the ASF, whether the company be Sun, IBM or Fred Bloggs Inc.
We would like to request that this be changed to:
Tomcat 5.0 (The Apache Software Foundation)
in both the press release (pdf url above) and the forthcoming June 2005
issue.
Thanks,
Henri Yandell
V.P., Apache Jakarta
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 19 Mar 2005, Daniel Quinlan wrote:
> Added carbon copy to PRC. Left original message more or less intact so
> they can follow. ;-)
Thanks Daniel, all good stuff. I'll incorporate it and send a new version
to all three lists sometime tonight.
Hen
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Posted by Daniel Quinlan <qu...@pathname.com>.
Added carbon copy to PRC. Left original message more or less intact so
they can follow. ;-)
Henri Yandell <ba...@apache.org> writes:
> Due to the timeliness of this, I plan to send it Sunday night. Given that
> we're on a weekend, I doubt it will be read until Monday.
Still, I'd send earlier if you can. ;-)
> Any opinions?
>
> -------------
> To: kadams@cmp.com
> Cc: board@apache.org
> Subject: Tomcat 5.0 error in JOLT announcement
>
> Hi Kate,
Start by thanking her for the award or announcement ... or something.
> I'm writing to let you know about a serious error on your JOLT product
> excellence awards press release, and I assume in your forthcoming June
> 2005 issue:
... press release because I'm concerned some or all of the error might
be reproduced in your forthcoming June 2005 issue.
> http://www.sdmagazine.com/pressroom/jolt_winners_2005.pdf
>
> You've incorrectly attributed Apache's Tomcat 5.0 product to "The Apache
> Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss".
The article incorrectly attributes...
> There are two, very big, problems with this.
There are two very big problems with this attribution.
> The first is that Apache does not have a concept of leading contributors,
> it is completely out of sync with the very philosophies that lie at the
> heart of the Apache Software Foundation (ASF).
Maybe add something like: There are a total of N committers to the
project, many of whom are employed by other companies or contribute
individually.
> The second is that JBoss are not a contributor to Tomcat. Two Tomcat
> committers are employed by JBoss Inc, but they commit to projects at the
> ASF as individuals and not as members of a company. This is true of all
> committers to the ASF, whether the company be Sun, IBM or Fred Bloggs Inc.
>
> We would like to request that this be changed to:
>
> Tomcat 5.0 (The Apache Software Foundation)
>
> in both the press release (pdf url above) and the forthcoming June 2005
> issue.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Henri Yandell
> V.P., Apache Jakarta
+1 in general
Daniel
--
Daniel Quinlan
http://www.pathname.com/~quinlan/
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
This was brought up separately on board@apache too. I'll take that as a
second +1 and go ahead and change it to Apache Tomcat 5.0.
There was also a need to change 'whether the company be Sun' to 'whether
their company be Sun'. Grammar screw-up on my part.
Hen
On Sat, 19 Mar 2005, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> I did consider it, but thought that a request for:
>
> Apache Tomcat 5.0 (The Apache Software Foundation)
>
> would be overkill. In much the same way that they have:
>
> Flash Lite 1.1 (Macromedia)
>
> and yet it's correctly referred to as Macromedia Flash.
>
> I can happily add it if there's a few +1s for doing so.
>
> Hen
>
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005, Will Glass-Husain wrote:
>
>> Good note.
>>
>> It surprises me you don't want to mention the branding issue ("Apache
>> Tomcat" vs "Tomcat"). I'd think that'd be a point that a publication and
>> commercial enterprise like SD Magazine would understand well and be
>> completely sympathetic to.
>>
>> It's entirely possible the SD magazine intended to honor both the product
>> (Apache Tomcat) and the JBoss organization. Whether they should link the
>> two is subject to debate. But the fact that the product should be "Apache
>> Tomcat 5.0" not "Tomcat 5.0" is inarguable.
>>
>> regards,
>> WILL
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henri Yandell" <ba...@apache.org>
>> To: <bo...@apache.org>
>> Cc: <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 10:18 AM
>> Subject: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Due to the timeliness of this, I plan to send it Sunday night. Given that
>>> we're on a weekend, I doubt it will be read until Monday.
>>>
>>> Any opinions?
>>>
>>> -------------
>>> To: kadams@cmp.com
>>> Cc: board@apache.org
>>> Subject: Tomcat 5.0 error in JOLT announcement
>>>
>>> Hi Kate,
>>>
>>> I'm writing to let you know about a serious error on your JOLT product
>>> excellence awards press release, and I assume in your forthcoming June
>>> 2005 issue:
>>>
>>> http://www.sdmagazine.com/pressroom/jolt_winners_2005.pdf
>>>
>>> You've incorrectly attributed Apache's Tomcat 5.0 product to "The Apache
>>> Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss".
>>>
>>> There are two, very big, problems with this.
>>>
>>> The first is that Apache does not have a concept of leading contributors,
>>> it is completely out of sync with the very philosophies that lie at the
>>> heart of the Apache Software Foundation (ASF).
>>>
>>> The second is that JBoss are not a contributor to Tomcat. Two Tomcat
>>> committers are employed by JBoss Inc, but they commit to projects at the
>>> ASF as individuals and not as members of a company. This is true of all
>>> committers to the ASF, whether the company be Sun, IBM or Fred Bloggs Inc.
>>>
>>> We would like to request that this be changed to:
>>>
>>> Tomcat 5.0 (The Apache Software Foundation)
>>>
>>> in both the press release (pdf url above) and the forthcoming June 2005
>>> issue.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Henri Yandell
>>> V.P., Apache Jakarta
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Posted by Will Glass-Husain <wg...@forio.com>.
Not a big deal, just thought it might set a good precedent. Interestingly,
while they list "Contribute (Macromedia)" in the awards they also refer to
"Macromedia Flex (Macromedia)". The split seems to be about 50/50.
Also, I suggest you start the letter with a note of thanks for selecting
Tomcat as a winner. As an enthusiastic user of Tomcat, I personally am
thrilled to see my favorite servlet container continue to receive
recognition and honors.
Best,
WILL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Henri Yandell" <ba...@generationjava.com>
To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
>
> I did consider it, but thought that a request for:
>
> Apache Tomcat 5.0 (The Apache Software Foundation)
>
> would be overkill. In much the same way that they have:
>
> Flash Lite 1.1 (Macromedia)
>
> and yet it's correctly referred to as Macromedia Flash.
>
> I can happily add it if there's a few +1s for doing so.
>
> Hen
>
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005, Will Glass-Husain wrote:
>
>> Good note.
>>
>> It surprises me you don't want to mention the branding issue ("Apache
>> Tomcat" vs "Tomcat"). I'd think that'd be a point that a publication and
>> commercial enterprise like SD Magazine would understand well and be
>> completely sympathetic to.
>>
>> It's entirely possible the SD magazine intended to honor both the product
>> (Apache Tomcat) and the JBoss organization. Whether they should link the
>> two is subject to debate. But the fact that the product should be
>> "Apache Tomcat 5.0" not "Tomcat 5.0" is inarguable.
>>
>> regards,
>> WILL
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henri Yandell" <ba...@apache.org>
>> To: <bo...@apache.org>
>> Cc: <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 10:18 AM
>> Subject: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Due to the timeliness of this, I plan to send it Sunday night. Given
>>> that we're on a weekend, I doubt it will be read until Monday.
>>>
>>> Any opinions?
>>>
>>> -------------
>>> To: kadams@cmp.com
>>> Cc: board@apache.org
>>> Subject: Tomcat 5.0 error in JOLT announcement
>>>
>>> Hi Kate,
>>>
>>> I'm writing to let you know about a serious error on your JOLT product
>>> excellence awards press release, and I assume in your forthcoming June
>>> 2005 issue:
>>>
>>> http://www.sdmagazine.com/pressroom/jolt_winners_2005.pdf
>>>
>>> You've incorrectly attributed Apache's Tomcat 5.0 product to "The Apache
>>> Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss".
>>>
>>> There are two, very big, problems with this.
>>>
>>> The first is that Apache does not have a concept of leading
>>> contributors, it is completely out of sync with the very philosophies
>>> that lie at the heart of the Apache Software Foundation (ASF).
>>>
>>> The second is that JBoss are not a contributor to Tomcat. Two Tomcat
>>> committers are employed by JBoss Inc, but they commit to projects at the
>>> ASF as individuals and not as members of a company. This is true of all
>>> committers to the ASF, whether the company be Sun, IBM or Fred Bloggs
>>> Inc.
>>>
>>> We would like to request that this be changed to:
>>>
>>> Tomcat 5.0 (The Apache Software Foundation)
>>>
>>> in both the press release (pdf url above) and the forthcoming June 2005
>>> issue.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Henri Yandell
>>> V.P., Apache Jakarta
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
I did consider it, but thought that a request for:
Apache Tomcat 5.0 (The Apache Software Foundation)
would be overkill. In much the same way that they have:
Flash Lite 1.1 (Macromedia)
and yet it's correctly referred to as Macromedia Flash.
I can happily add it if there's a few +1s for doing so.
Hen
On Sat, 19 Mar 2005, Will Glass-Husain wrote:
> Good note.
>
> It surprises me you don't want to mention the branding issue ("Apache Tomcat"
> vs "Tomcat"). I'd think that'd be a point that a publication and commercial
> enterprise like SD Magazine would understand well and be completely
> sympathetic to.
>
> It's entirely possible the SD magazine intended to honor both the product
> (Apache Tomcat) and the JBoss organization. Whether they should link the two
> is subject to debate. But the fact that the product should be "Apache Tomcat
> 5.0" not "Tomcat 5.0" is inarguable.
>
> regards,
> WILL
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henri Yandell" <ba...@apache.org>
> To: <bo...@apache.org>
> Cc: <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 10:18 AM
> Subject: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
>
>
>>
>> Due to the timeliness of this, I plan to send it Sunday night. Given that
>> we're on a weekend, I doubt it will be read until Monday.
>>
>> Any opinions?
>>
>> -------------
>> To: kadams@cmp.com
>> Cc: board@apache.org
>> Subject: Tomcat 5.0 error in JOLT announcement
>>
>> Hi Kate,
>>
>> I'm writing to let you know about a serious error on your JOLT product
>> excellence awards press release, and I assume in your forthcoming June 2005
>> issue:
>>
>> http://www.sdmagazine.com/pressroom/jolt_winners_2005.pdf
>>
>> You've incorrectly attributed Apache's Tomcat 5.0 product to "The Apache
>> Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss".
>>
>> There are two, very big, problems with this.
>>
>> The first is that Apache does not have a concept of leading contributors,
>> it is completely out of sync with the very philosophies that lie at the
>> heart of the Apache Software Foundation (ASF).
>>
>> The second is that JBoss are not a contributor to Tomcat. Two Tomcat
>> committers are employed by JBoss Inc, but they commit to projects at the
>> ASF as individuals and not as members of a company. This is true of all
>> committers to the ASF, whether the company be Sun, IBM or Fred Bloggs Inc.
>>
>> We would like to request that this be changed to:
>>
>> Tomcat 5.0 (The Apache Software Foundation)
>>
>> in both the press release (pdf url above) and the forthcoming June 2005
>> issue.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Henri Yandell
>> V.P., Apache Jakarta
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Posted by Will Glass-Husain <wg...@forio.com>.
Good note.
It surprises me you don't want to mention the branding issue ("Apache
Tomcat" vs "Tomcat"). I'd think that'd be a point that a publication and
commercial enterprise like SD Magazine would understand well and be
completely sympathetic to.
It's entirely possible the SD magazine intended to honor both the product
(Apache Tomcat) and the JBoss organization. Whether they should link the
two is subject to debate. But the fact that the product should be "Apache
Tomcat 5.0" not "Tomcat 5.0" is inarguable.
regards,
WILL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Henri Yandell" <ba...@apache.org>
To: <bo...@apache.org>
Cc: <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 10:18 AM
Subject: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
>
> Due to the timeliness of this, I plan to send it Sunday night. Given that
> we're on a weekend, I doubt it will be read until Monday.
>
> Any opinions?
>
> -------------
> To: kadams@cmp.com
> Cc: board@apache.org
> Subject: Tomcat 5.0 error in JOLT announcement
>
> Hi Kate,
>
> I'm writing to let you know about a serious error on your JOLT product
> excellence awards press release, and I assume in your forthcoming June
> 2005 issue:
>
> http://www.sdmagazine.com/pressroom/jolt_winners_2005.pdf
>
> You've incorrectly attributed Apache's Tomcat 5.0 product to "The Apache
> Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss".
>
> There are two, very big, problems with this.
>
> The first is that Apache does not have a concept of leading contributors,
> it is completely out of sync with the very philosophies that lie at the
> heart of the Apache Software Foundation (ASF).
>
> The second is that JBoss are not a contributor to Tomcat. Two Tomcat
> committers are employed by JBoss Inc, but they commit to projects at the
> ASF as individuals and not as members of a company. This is true of all
> committers to the ASF, whether the company be Sun, IBM or Fred Bloggs Inc.
>
> We would like to request that this be changed to:
>
> Tomcat 5.0 (The Apache Software Foundation)
>
> in both the press release (pdf url above) and the forthcoming June 2005
> issue.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Henri Yandell
> V.P., Apache Jakarta
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Sun, 20 Mar 2005, Giorgio Gallo wrote:
>
> --Foreword
>
> Hi all, I never wrote to this list before today - though I've been lurking it
> since some time ago.
Brave topic to make your first email :)
> I'm not a committer/contributor of any of ASF projects. My interest in this
> list is because I'm working (privately) on something I paln to donate when it
> will be a bit finished (if it doesn't prove a stupid idea).
> My opinion therefore does not count as a +1/-1 of sort (I imagine).
Perfect counterweight to other opinions as you're not part of the core of
the community (ie committers), so very worthwhile. Unless it comes down to
an actual vote, it's as +1 /-1 as anyone elses I think.
> --Message
>
> I assume SD Magazine seems about to make a mistake which will upset some
> their readers (besides the ASF and -if any- the other companies wich
> "contribute" to tomcat): the "...and its leading contributor..." part is just
> plain wrong and senseless and I imagine SD will be more than happy to correct
> it.
>
> The correct way to credit a company for its de facto contributions to tomcat
> should be to mention it somwhere in the article (or to institute a "special
> prize") w/o attributing a product to the wrong entity - JBoss could request
> such a recognition from SD if it deemed appropriate.
>
> Also, I would not insist on having tomcat called "Apache Tomcat": after all,
> Jakarta itself refers to tomcat just as "Tomcat" and SD should be free to
> avoid utter redundancy in it's pages - their article is informational and not
> legal.
>
> So I would completely agree with Henri's original proposal regarding the
> naming, if my opinion meant anything ;)
Good to hear :) Pushing for the 'Apache' in 'Apache Tomcat' in this
instance seems a 50/50 choice.
> As of what concerns JBoss giving the correct credit to tomcat, I think their
> current attitude is more than satisfactory: just say they have a link to
> jakarta in their home page! (which, be it said without complaining, Jonas
> does *not* have).
> Well - it's under "JBoss projects" but doesn't it really mean they spend
> money on tomcat? Note it's not "JBoss products".
>
> Besides, does Hivemind in its homepage give credit to JBoss for using
> javassist? And does BMW give credit to Brembo for providing brakes?
If they did though, they would have to give the credit in a correct legal
way.
> Of course JBoss has a return on linking to Tomcat, but I think it's a problem
> of their marketing department whether the wording gives the impression of "we
> support tomcat" or "tomcat is ours" - ie: I don't think many of jboss'
> customers would appreciate the second interpretation and it's hard to believe
> that one of them ignores tomcat is an ASF product (if they do, they will
> discover it at the very moment they get a stack trace "org.apache.[...]").
>
> My opinion is that JBoss is an "Honest Company wotking with open source": I
> don't know if there are companies trying to backstabbing ASF, but I think
> that for sure JBoss is none of them.
I truly believe that it's just a case of aggressive marketing for their
own products, which they have to do to defeat the huge monoliths that are
IBM, BEA, Sun etc, leaking into how they market their involvement of our
product, which can sometimes creep into the realm of distasteful.
> I would greatly appreciate an official ASF point of view regarding JBoss'
> current policy to be published in this list sometime in the near future -
> thanks
I'll focus on resolving the issues, in both directions. I suspect that the
ASF CCLA (company contributions agreement) is legally confusing and that
the ASF need to explain/rethink how it is handled.
Many thanks for the reply,
Hen
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Posted by Giorgio Gallo <gi...@overlord.it>.
--Foreword
Hi all, I never wrote to this list before today - though I've been
lurking it since some time ago.
I'm not a committer/contributor of any of ASF projects. My interest in
this list is because I'm working (privately) on something I paln to
donate when it will be a bit finished (if it doesn't prove a stupid idea).
My opinion therefore does not count as a +1/-1 of sort (I imagine).
--Message
I assume SD Magazine seems about to make a mistake which will upset some
their readers (besides the ASF and -if any- the other companies wich
"contribute" to tomcat): the "...and its leading contributor..." part is
just plain wrong and senseless and I imagine SD will be more than happy
to correct it.
The correct way to credit a company for its de facto contributions to
tomcat should be to mention it somwhere in the article (or to institute
a "special prize") w/o attributing a product to the wrong entity - JBoss
could request such a recognition from SD if it deemed appropriate.
Also, I would not insist on having tomcat called "Apache Tomcat": after
all, Jakarta itself refers to tomcat just as "Tomcat" and SD should be
free to avoid utter redundancy in it's pages - their article is
informational and not legal.
So I would completely agree with Henry's original proposal regarding the
naming, if my opinion meant anything ;)
As of what concerns JBoss giving the correct credit to tomcat, I think
their current attitude is more than satisfactory: just say they have a
link to jakarta in their home page! (which, be it said without
complaining, Jonas does *not* have).
Well - it's under "JBoss projects" but doesn't it really mean they spend
money on tomcat? Note it's not "JBoss products".
Besides, does Hivemind in its homepage give credit to JBoss for using
javassist? And does BMW give credit to Brembo for providing brakes?
Of course JBoss has a return on linking to Tomcat, but I think it's a
problem of their marketing department whether the wording gives the
impression of "we support tomcat" or "tomcat is ours" - ie: I don't
think many of jboss' customers would appreciate the second
interpretation and it's hard to believe that one of them ignores tomcat
is an ASF product (if they do, they will discover it at the very moment
they get a stack trace "org.apache.[...]").
My opinion is that JBoss is an "Honest Company wotking with open
source": I don't know if there are companies trying to backstabbing ASF,
but I think that for sure JBoss is none of them.
I would greatly appreciate an official ASF point of view regarding
JBoss' current policy to be published in this list sometime in the near
future - thanks
Regards,
Giorgio
Remy Maucherat wrote:
> Henri Yandell wrote:
>
>> Due to the timeliness of this, I plan to send it Sunday night. Given
>> that we're on a weekend, I doubt it will be read until Monday.
>>
>> Any opinions?
>
>
> I am definitely contributing to Tomcat as part of my employment at
> JBoss. I am not contributing on my own free time to Tomcat as an
> individual at the moment, and (as far as I can remember, as it was a
> while ago ...) have submitted a company CLA reflecting that
> (http://www.apache.org/licenses/#clas). Anyway, it is obvious Apache has
> the notion of company contributions. Stating otherwise is wrong, and
> does not match the legal documents the ASF uses.
>
> I think continuing with the current attitude would only lead my company
> to reevaluate its involvement in ASF projects, and I could not really
> blame them if they did. Of course, this may be what some people here
> seek (hopefully, it is not and it's just my paranoia at work).
>
> Rémy
>
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Posted by Phil Steitz <ph...@steitz.com>.
Henri Yandell wrote:
<snip/>
>
> You've pointed out that JBoss are the contributor in your commits,
> rather than yourself as an individual. I assume other JBoss employees
> are in the same situation. How does that change the email? Do I need
> to drop the paragraph about JBoss not being a contributor
I have asked for clarification of what the CCLA means on legal-discuss,
but it makes no sense to me that your statement below can be false:
"Two Tomcat committers are employed by JBoss Inc, but they commit to
projects at the ASF as individuals and not as members of a company. This
is true of all committers to the ASF, whether the company be Sun, IBM or
Fred Bloggs Inc."
If companies can in fact contribute directly, then it would seem to me
that a) we should be voting them in as committers / PMC members and b)
we should have policies and procedures for extending oversight to them.
To my knowledge we (ASF) have no way of doing either of these things nor
intention to develop them.
Phil
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Sat, 19 Mar 2005, Remy Maucherat wrote:
> Henri Yandell wrote:
>> Due to the timeliness of this, I plan to send it Sunday night. Given that
>> we're on a weekend, I doubt it will be read until Monday.
>>
>> Any opinions?
>
> I am definitely contributing to Tomcat as part of my employment at JBoss. I
> am not contributing on my own free time to Tomcat as an individual at the
> moment, and (as far as I can remember, as it was a while ago ...) have
> submitted a company CLA reflecting that
> (http://www.apache.org/licenses/#clas). Anyway, it is obvious Apache has the
> notion of company contributions. Stating otherwise is wrong, and does not
> match the legal documents the ASF uses.
Wasn't aware that you'd submitted a CCLA. I'll find out what the status is
with that and change what I say accordingly.
> I think continuing with the current attitude would only lead my company to
> reevaluate its involvement in ASF projects, and I could not really blame them
> if they did. Of course, this may be what some people here seek (hopefully, it
> is not and it's just my paranoia at work).
Definitely not my intent.
If we (Jakarta) feel that the SD magazine pdf is wrong, then I'm happy to
send them an email pointing that out. If we don't have consensus, then I
shouldn't do anything.
On the -1's (or at least the negative opinions to this), we have Tim who
thinks that it's a waste to talk to SD and we should focus on making sure
the branding message is clearer.
You've pointed out that JBoss are the contributor in your commits, rather
than yourself as an individual. I assume other JBoss employees are in the
same situation. How does that change the email? Do I need to drop the
paragraph about JBoss not being a contributor, or are you -1 to the email
itself?
Hen
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Posted by Torsten Curdt <tc...@apache.org>.
> I think continuing with the current attitude would only lead my company
> to reevaluate its involvement in ASF projects, and I could not really
> blame them if they did. Of course, this may be what some people here
> seek (hopefully, it is not and it's just my paranoia at work).
I am sure the community is thankful for the individual
contributions and therefor is also thankful for the
companies letting their employees spend time for working
on Apache projects. But...
Usually companies don't let their employees spend
so much time (and therefor money) just for the good
of mankind. Usually they have an interest in fixing
certain things because they want to benefit from a
product being developed and maintained by a large
number of developers they *don't* have to pay.
As a matter of fact we have quite some committers
in our community that are sponsored by the companies
they are working for. Who is able to define whether
who is the "leading" or "main" contributor? I would
not want to risk picking the wrong one and pissing
off other contributors. So either name them all or
drop this classification. Terms like "main" or "leading"
are a problem.
Naming them all for such an award is very inappropriate
IMO. No problem listing all the companies that contribute
to a certain project somewhere. A contributors file ...or
even on the website. But refering to JBoss as the main
contributor is not in the spirit of the community IMO.
So that's why we should ask for the change.
Assuming JBoss will respect the community this
should be no problem at all ...and be no reason
to "reevaluate the involvement".
cheers
--
Torsten
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Posted by Costin Manolache <cm...@yahoo.com>.
Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> Rémy,
>
> You will probably need to resend the CCLA...i can't find in the
> regular location where ccla's are recorded.
>
> - Can u please explain what you mean by "current attitude"?
It's already 'explained' in various mailing list archives, including
this thread :-)
> - Are u saying that Tomcat is *NOT* really "Apache Tomcat"?
I thought it's "Jakarta Tomcat" :-) I checked the web site - it says
'Apache Jakarta Tomcat' - but most of the docs and packages are
jakarta-tomcat or just tomcat.
There are quite a few books, articles and many sites out there using
either 'tomcat' or 'jakarta tomcat' - should we ask for a change as
well, or is it only for jboss ?
> - Are you saying that we need to formalize a mechanism to figure out
> which company is a leading contributor to a certain project?
I would say each company and contributor is a 'leading contributor' :-),
but it is true that some companies contribute more - Jboss and Sun in
particular for tomcat ( at some point it was Sun and IBM ), and I think
they deserve credit for spending money on this.
Formally - each contributor has the same voting and veto rights in any
project, and is free to 'lead' with his contributions.
How people outside apache see the fact that few individuals contribute
more is a different story. It happens in all projects - even httpd -
that at some point 3-4 people are extremely active and contribute more
than the average. Is it fair to say they 'drive the project' or are
making 'leading contributions' ? That's the reality - may not be
politically correct in apache culture ( we all know
board/pmc/philosophy/oversight/abstract community are the 'leading
contributors' in any project, not individuals :-)
I've seen a lot of cases where people or companies have claimed a
'leading' role in various apache projects. This is the first time there
is a rush to correct this. Is jboss a factor ?
Costin
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Rémy,
You will probably need to resend the CCLA...i can't find in the
regular location where ccla's are recorded.
- Can u please explain what you mean by "current attitude"?
- Are u saying that Tomcat is *NOT* really "Apache Tomcat"?
- Are you saying that we need to formalize a mechanism to figure out
which company is a leading contributor to a certain project?
thanks,
dims
PS: Remember, i was with you last time there was a blow up about
certain contributions to Tomcat.
On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 21:04:44 +0100, Remy Maucherat <re...@apache.org> wrote:
> Henri Yandell wrote:
> > Due to the timeliness of this, I plan to send it Sunday night. Given
> > that we're on a weekend, I doubt it will be read until Monday.
> >
> > Any opinions?
>
> I am definitely contributing to Tomcat as part of my employment at
> JBoss. I am not contributing on my own free time to Tomcat as an
> individual at the moment, and (as far as I can remember, as it was a
> while ago ...) have submitted a company CLA reflecting that
> (http://www.apache.org/licenses/#clas). Anyway, it is obvious Apache has
> the notion of company contributions. Stating otherwise is wrong, and
> does not match the legal documents the ASF uses.
>
> I think continuing with the current attitude would only lead my company
> to reevaluate its involvement in ASF projects, and I could not really
> blame them if they did. Of course, this may be what some people here
> seek (hopefully, it is not and it's just my paranoia at work).
>
> Rémy
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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>
>
--
Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Posted by Will Glass-Husain <wg...@forio.com>.
> I think one of the great things about the ASF is that it does allow
> commercial involvement in their projects. I'd love us to figure out how
> we ARE comfortable thanking JBoss, IBM, etc.. rather than only reacting
> when we feel a line is crossed.
Amen!
(said as a commiter involved in a commercial enterprise that both makes me
highly thankful for Apache/Jakarta, and also motivates my participation in
the community)
As an aside, nice job, Henri in facilitating a quick but inclusive
discussion of a potentially emotional charged issue.
WILL
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RE: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Serge Knystautas wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>> Remy Maucherat wrote:
>>>it is obvious Apache has the notion of company contributions.
>> Companies authorize individuals where their employment agreement might be
in
>> conflict with a CLA, and companies can provide a Software Grant in the
case
>> where the existing IP is owned by the company. This applies equally to
IBM,
>> Sun, BEA, Gluecode, DevTech, or JBoss.
> This is an accurate legal description but not really an issue to me.
I was addressing only that aspect of it. The positioning aspect is much
more contentious. I agree with your expression of discomfort at how
companies --- not just JBoss --- market their relationships, but that's
something I would be happy to defer to the PRC.
> I think one of the great things about the ASF is that it does allow
> commercial involvement in their projects. I'd love us to figure out how
we ARE comfortable thanking JBoss, IBM, etc.. rather than only reacting
when we feel a line is crossed.
+1
--- Noel
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Posted by Serge Knystautas <se...@lokitech.com>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Remy Maucherat wrote:
>>it is obvious Apache has the notion of company contributions.
>
> Companies authorize individuals where their employment agreement might be in
> conflict with a CLA, and companies can provide a Software Grant in the case
> where the existing IP is owned by the company. This applies equally to IBM,
> Sun, BEA, Gluecode, DevTech, or JBoss.
This is an accurate legal description but not really an issue to me.
Clarifying the IP flow of company -> committer -> ASF would suggest that
we would be ok to say "Tomcat by Apache and lead contributor JBoss via
Remy."
> None of this is new. It has been discussed at length, and is fairly well
> established. This is a legal distinction having nothing to do with the
> promotional wording of the Jolt awards.
Big +1 to Jolt needing a correction.
I don't quite know how to feel JBoss's desire to promote their
contributions to the ASF. I'm guessing IBM, Sun, and BEA contribute
more to the ASF than JBoss does, but these larger contributions come
from companies that do not have a strategic goal of marketing themselves
as open source leaders.
I think one of the great things about the ASF is that it does allow
commercial involvement in their projects. I'd love us to figure out how
we ARE comfortable thanking JBoss, IBM, etc.. rather than only reacting
when we feel a line is crossed.
--
Serge Knystautas
Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com
p. 301.656.5501
e. sergek@lokitech.com
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RE: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Remy Maucherat wrote:
> I am definitely contributing to Tomcat as part of my employment at
> JBoss. I am not contributing on my own free time to Tomcat as an
> individual at the moment
If you look at the CLA, you'll see that all contributions are made by
individuals, irrespective of motivation or employment status.
> and (as far as I can remember, as it was a while ago ...) have
> submitted a company CLA reflecting that
A CCLA simply authorizes each employee to perform under the terms of their
CLA.
> it is obvious Apache has the notion of company contributions.
Companies authorize individuals where their employment agreement might be in
conflict with a CLA, and companies can provide a Software Grant in the case
where the existing IP is owned by the company. This applies equally to IBM,
Sun, BEA, Gluecode, DevTech, or JBoss.
None of this is new. It has been discussed at length, and is fairly well
established. This is a legal distinction having nothing to do with the
promotional wording of the Jolt awards.
--- Noel
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Posted by Remy Maucherat <re...@apache.org>.
Henri Yandell wrote:
> Due to the timeliness of this, I plan to send it Sunday night. Given
> that we're on a weekend, I doubt it will be read until Monday.
>
> Any opinions?
I am definitely contributing to Tomcat as part of my employment at
JBoss. I am not contributing on my own free time to Tomcat as an
individual at the moment, and (as far as I can remember, as it was a
while ago ...) have submitted a company CLA reflecting that
(http://www.apache.org/licenses/#clas). Anyway, it is obvious Apache has
the notion of company contributions. Stating otherwise is wrong, and
does not match the legal documents the ASF uses.
I think continuing with the current attitude would only lead my company
to reevaluate its involvement in ASF projects, and I could not really
blame them if they did. Of course, this may be what some people here
seek (hopefully, it is not and it's just my paranoia at work).
Rémy
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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Posted by Torsten Curdt <tc...@apache.org>.
Sounds good +1
cheers
--
Torsten
Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
+1
On Mar 19, 2005, at 1:18 PM, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> Due to the timeliness of this, I plan to send it Sunday night. Given
> that we're on a weekend, I doubt it will be read until Monday.
>
> Any opinions?
>
> -------------
> To: kadams@cmp.com
> Cc: board@apache.org
> Subject: Tomcat 5.0 error in JOLT announcement
>
> Hi Kate,
>
> I'm writing to let you know about a serious error on your JOLT product
> excellence awards press release, and I assume in your forthcoming June
> 2005 issue:
>
> http://www.sdmagazine.com/pressroom/jolt_winners_2005.pdf
>
> You've incorrectly attributed Apache's Tomcat 5.0 product to "The
> Apache Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss".
>
> There are two, very big, problems with this.
>
> The first is that Apache does not have a concept of leading
> contributors, it is completely out of sync with the very philosophies
> that lie at the heart of the Apache Software Foundation (ASF).
>
> The second is that JBoss are not a contributor to Tomcat. Two Tomcat
> committers are employed by JBoss Inc, but they commit to projects at
> the ASF as individuals and not as members of a company. This is true
> of all committers to the ASF, whether the company be Sun, IBM or Fred
> Bloggs Inc.
>
> We would like to request that this be changed to:
>
> Tomcat 5.0 (The Apache Software Foundation)
>
> in both the press release (pdf url above) and the forthcoming June
> 2005 issue.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Henri Yandell
> V.P., Apache Jakarta
>
>
--
=======================================================================
Jim Jagielski [|] jim@jaguNET.com [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/
"There 10 types of people: those who read binary and everyone else."
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