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Posted to dev@cordova.apache.org by Chris Brody <ch...@gmail.com> on 2018/07/31 17:10:03 UTC
Better discussion forum?
I would really love to see a better discussion forum for ideas. I
think the mail list is not so handy for forums with cross-referencing
and cordova-discuss proved to be a failure. npm.community seems to
have nailed it, though it may have been meant to solve another
problem. Any comments?
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Re: Better discussion forum?
Posted by Jan Piotrowski <pi...@gmail.com>.
It's an Apache thing:
> Apache projects use mailing lists to coordinate development of the software and administration of the organization. Mailing lists also serve as a primary support channel where users can help each other learn to use the software.
https://apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html
2018-07-31 19:10 GMT+02:00 Chris Brody <ch...@gmail.com>:
> I would really love to see a better discussion forum for ideas. I
> think the mail list is not so handy for forums with cross-referencing
> and cordova-discuss proved to be a failure. npm.community seems to
> have nailed it, though it may have been meant to solve another
> problem. Any comments?
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
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Re: Better discussion forum?
Posted by "Terence M. Bandoian" <te...@tmbsw.com>.
+1
On 7/31/2018 12:57 PM, Darryl Pogue wrote:
> To expand on this a bit more, annoying as the mailing list might be, I
> think the project would be better for having a more active mailing
> list and not having discussions spread across lists and multiple
> GitHub repos and Slack and JIRA and various Google Docs. I'm
> definitely guilty of adding to that spread of information because it's
> convenient, but it does impose a bit of a barrier for participation.
>
> The idea is that all decisions have to happen on the mailing list,
> because this is the one place that all Cordova devs are supposed to be
> subscribed. This is the one place that everyone can watch to keep on
> top of what's happening in the project.
>
> We've been *terrible* at that over the years, and it's made it hard to
> provide feedback on changes because I didn't know they were happening.
> Roadmaps were discussed in face-to-face meetings or video calls and
> not brought back to the list for review, and it was hard to find out
> what was being worked on short of stumbling upon tasks in JIRA or
> watching peoples' personal GitHub forks.
> I don't say that to put blame on anyone, because they were doing what
> they'd always done and there wasn't (and isn't) a culture of bringing
> things back to the list. But I do say it because I think we can
> improve and I think it's worthwhile to try to use the list as the
> place for discussions so that there's a recorded history of decisions.
>
> I know plaintext email doesn't offer nearly as much in the way of
> formatting, so at the very least it would be good to send a link to
> proposal documents to the list, and ask for feedback to be posted in
> that thread.
>
> On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 10:32 AM Darryl Pogue <dv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Apache Software Foundation projects use mailing lists for communication.
>> It is The Apache Way.
>>
>> See http://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#communication
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 10:10 AM Chris Brody <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I would really love to see a better discussion forum for ideas. I
>>> think the mail list is not so handy for forums with cross-referencing
>>> and cordova-discuss proved to be a failure. npm.community seems to
>>> have nailed it, though it may have been meant to solve another
>>> problem. Any comments?
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>>
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Re: Better discussion forum?
Posted by Jesse <pu...@gmail.com>.
I think we could do a better job with our guide at [1] which we need to
update anyway with all the github issues going on now.
The Apache site also has some really good text on lazy-consensus [2]
Ultimately though, I think it comes down to all of us just doing it. If
someone shows up on this list, and we are all following a clear process, it
is probably pretty easy to jump in.
[1] https://cordova.apache.org/contribute/contribute_guidelines.html
[2] http://community.apache.org/committers/index.html
@purplecabbage
risingj.com
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 10:30 PM, Chris Brody <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks Jesse, that "one rule" was not clear to me until just now.
>
> Any suggestions about how we should this clear to new contributors,
> new committers, and new Cordova developers in general?
> On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 1:22 AM Jesse <pu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > We actually used to be a lot stricter with this, but I think the one rule
> > is, was, and for always should be "If it didn't happen on the list, it
> > didn't happen."
> >
> > When Cordova was being driven by larger entities, the
> > Adobe/IBM/Google/Intel/Microsoft years, we had tons of contentious
> > decisions as companies to some extent were also representing their own
> > interests in the library. In this era, everything had to be finalized on
> > the list. We would discuss elsewhere, collaborate where-ever, but the
> > decision always came back to the list, so everyone had a chance to be
> > involved.
> >
> > There are many other mediums which make collaboration flow better, and we
> > should continue to embrace them, just bring it back to the list as a
> > discuss thread here so there are no surprises. The list also serves as a
> > living record of every decision we have made over the years, and
> hopefully
> > will become a book someday, if not a movie ...
> >
> >
> > @purplecabbage
> > risingj.com
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 10:57 AM, Darryl Pogue <dv...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > To expand on this a bit more, annoying as the mailing list might be, I
> > > think the project would be better for having a more active mailing
> > > list and not having discussions spread across lists and multiple
> > > GitHub repos and Slack and JIRA and various Google Docs. I'm
> > > definitely guilty of adding to that spread of information because it's
> > > convenient, but it does impose a bit of a barrier for participation.
> > >
> > > The idea is that all decisions have to happen on the mailing list,
> > > because this is the one place that all Cordova devs are supposed to be
> > > subscribed. This is the one place that everyone can watch to keep on
> > > top of what's happening in the project.
> > >
> > > We've been *terrible* at that over the years, and it's made it hard to
> > > provide feedback on changes because I didn't know they were happening.
> > > Roadmaps were discussed in face-to-face meetings or video calls and
> > > not brought back to the list for review, and it was hard to find out
> > > what was being worked on short of stumbling upon tasks in JIRA or
> > > watching peoples' personal GitHub forks.
> > > I don't say that to put blame on anyone, because they were doing what
> > > they'd always done and there wasn't (and isn't) a culture of bringing
> > > things back to the list. But I do say it because I think we can
> > > improve and I think it's worthwhile to try to use the list as the
> > > place for discussions so that there's a recorded history of decisions.
> > >
> > > I know plaintext email doesn't offer nearly as much in the way of
> > > formatting, so at the very least it would be good to send a link to
> > > proposal documents to the list, and ask for feedback to be posted in
> > > that thread.
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 10:32 AM Darryl Pogue <dv...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Apache Software Foundation projects use mailing lists for
> communication.
> > > > It is The Apache Way.
> > > >
> > > > See http://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#communication
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 10:10 AM Chris Brody <ch...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I would really love to see a better discussion forum for ideas. I
> > > > > think the mail list is not so handy for forums with
> cross-referencing
> > > > > and cordova-discuss proved to be a failure. npm.community seems to
> > > > > have nailed it, though it may have been meant to solve another
> > > > > problem. Any comments?
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> > > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> > >
> > >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
Re: Better discussion forum?
Posted by Chris Brody <ch...@gmail.com>.
Thanks Jesse, that "one rule" was not clear to me until just now.
Any suggestions about how we should this clear to new contributors,
new committers, and new Cordova developers in general?
On Wed, Aug 1, 2018 at 1:22 AM Jesse <pu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> We actually used to be a lot stricter with this, but I think the one rule
> is, was, and for always should be "If it didn't happen on the list, it
> didn't happen."
>
> When Cordova was being driven by larger entities, the
> Adobe/IBM/Google/Intel/Microsoft years, we had tons of contentious
> decisions as companies to some extent were also representing their own
> interests in the library. In this era, everything had to be finalized on
> the list. We would discuss elsewhere, collaborate where-ever, but the
> decision always came back to the list, so everyone had a chance to be
> involved.
>
> There are many other mediums which make collaboration flow better, and we
> should continue to embrace them, just bring it back to the list as a
> discuss thread here so there are no surprises. The list also serves as a
> living record of every decision we have made over the years, and hopefully
> will become a book someday, if not a movie ...
>
>
> @purplecabbage
> risingj.com
>
> On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 10:57 AM, Darryl Pogue <dv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > To expand on this a bit more, annoying as the mailing list might be, I
> > think the project would be better for having a more active mailing
> > list and not having discussions spread across lists and multiple
> > GitHub repos and Slack and JIRA and various Google Docs. I'm
> > definitely guilty of adding to that spread of information because it's
> > convenient, but it does impose a bit of a barrier for participation.
> >
> > The idea is that all decisions have to happen on the mailing list,
> > because this is the one place that all Cordova devs are supposed to be
> > subscribed. This is the one place that everyone can watch to keep on
> > top of what's happening in the project.
> >
> > We've been *terrible* at that over the years, and it's made it hard to
> > provide feedback on changes because I didn't know they were happening.
> > Roadmaps were discussed in face-to-face meetings or video calls and
> > not brought back to the list for review, and it was hard to find out
> > what was being worked on short of stumbling upon tasks in JIRA or
> > watching peoples' personal GitHub forks.
> > I don't say that to put blame on anyone, because they were doing what
> > they'd always done and there wasn't (and isn't) a culture of bringing
> > things back to the list. But I do say it because I think we can
> > improve and I think it's worthwhile to try to use the list as the
> > place for discussions so that there's a recorded history of decisions.
> >
> > I know plaintext email doesn't offer nearly as much in the way of
> > formatting, so at the very least it would be good to send a link to
> > proposal documents to the list, and ask for feedback to be posted in
> > that thread.
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 10:32 AM Darryl Pogue <dv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Apache Software Foundation projects use mailing lists for communication.
> > > It is The Apache Way.
> > >
> > > See http://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#communication
> > >
> > > On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 10:10 AM Chris Brody <ch...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I would really love to see a better discussion forum for ideas. I
> > > > think the mail list is not so handy for forums with cross-referencing
> > > > and cordova-discuss proved to be a failure. npm.community seems to
> > > > have nailed it, though it may have been meant to solve another
> > > > problem. Any comments?
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> > > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >
> >
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
Re: Better discussion forum?
Posted by Jesse <pu...@gmail.com>.
We actually used to be a lot stricter with this, but I think the one rule
is, was, and for always should be "If it didn't happen on the list, it
didn't happen."
When Cordova was being driven by larger entities, the
Adobe/IBM/Google/Intel/Microsoft years, we had tons of contentious
decisions as companies to some extent were also representing their own
interests in the library. In this era, everything had to be finalized on
the list. We would discuss elsewhere, collaborate where-ever, but the
decision always came back to the list, so everyone had a chance to be
involved.
There are many other mediums which make collaboration flow better, and we
should continue to embrace them, just bring it back to the list as a
discuss thread here so there are no surprises. The list also serves as a
living record of every decision we have made over the years, and hopefully
will become a book someday, if not a movie ...
@purplecabbage
risingj.com
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 10:57 AM, Darryl Pogue <dv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> To expand on this a bit more, annoying as the mailing list might be, I
> think the project would be better for having a more active mailing
> list and not having discussions spread across lists and multiple
> GitHub repos and Slack and JIRA and various Google Docs. I'm
> definitely guilty of adding to that spread of information because it's
> convenient, but it does impose a bit of a barrier for participation.
>
> The idea is that all decisions have to happen on the mailing list,
> because this is the one place that all Cordova devs are supposed to be
> subscribed. This is the one place that everyone can watch to keep on
> top of what's happening in the project.
>
> We've been *terrible* at that over the years, and it's made it hard to
> provide feedback on changes because I didn't know they were happening.
> Roadmaps were discussed in face-to-face meetings or video calls and
> not brought back to the list for review, and it was hard to find out
> what was being worked on short of stumbling upon tasks in JIRA or
> watching peoples' personal GitHub forks.
> I don't say that to put blame on anyone, because they were doing what
> they'd always done and there wasn't (and isn't) a culture of bringing
> things back to the list. But I do say it because I think we can
> improve and I think it's worthwhile to try to use the list as the
> place for discussions so that there's a recorded history of decisions.
>
> I know plaintext email doesn't offer nearly as much in the way of
> formatting, so at the very least it would be good to send a link to
> proposal documents to the list, and ask for feedback to be posted in
> that thread.
>
> On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 10:32 AM Darryl Pogue <dv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Apache Software Foundation projects use mailing lists for communication.
> > It is The Apache Way.
> >
> > See http://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#communication
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 10:10 AM Chris Brody <ch...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I would really love to see a better discussion forum for ideas. I
> > > think the mail list is not so handy for forums with cross-referencing
> > > and cordova-discuss proved to be a failure. npm.community seems to
> > > have nailed it, though it may have been meant to solve another
> > > problem. Any comments?
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> > >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>
Re: Better discussion forum?
Posted by Darryl Pogue <dv...@gmail.com>.
To expand on this a bit more, annoying as the mailing list might be, I
think the project would be better for having a more active mailing
list and not having discussions spread across lists and multiple
GitHub repos and Slack and JIRA and various Google Docs. I'm
definitely guilty of adding to that spread of information because it's
convenient, but it does impose a bit of a barrier for participation.
The idea is that all decisions have to happen on the mailing list,
because this is the one place that all Cordova devs are supposed to be
subscribed. This is the one place that everyone can watch to keep on
top of what's happening in the project.
We've been *terrible* at that over the years, and it's made it hard to
provide feedback on changes because I didn't know they were happening.
Roadmaps were discussed in face-to-face meetings or video calls and
not brought back to the list for review, and it was hard to find out
what was being worked on short of stumbling upon tasks in JIRA or
watching peoples' personal GitHub forks.
I don't say that to put blame on anyone, because they were doing what
they'd always done and there wasn't (and isn't) a culture of bringing
things back to the list. But I do say it because I think we can
improve and I think it's worthwhile to try to use the list as the
place for discussions so that there's a recorded history of decisions.
I know plaintext email doesn't offer nearly as much in the way of
formatting, so at the very least it would be good to send a link to
proposal documents to the list, and ask for feedback to be posted in
that thread.
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 10:32 AM Darryl Pogue <dv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Apache Software Foundation projects use mailing lists for communication.
> It is The Apache Way.
>
> See http://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#communication
>
> On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 10:10 AM Chris Brody <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I would really love to see a better discussion forum for ideas. I
> > think the mail list is not so handy for forums with cross-referencing
> > and cordova-discuss proved to be a failure. npm.community seems to
> > have nailed it, though it may have been meant to solve another
> > problem. Any comments?
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >
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Re: Better discussion forum?
Posted by Darryl Pogue <dv...@gmail.com>.
Apache Software Foundation projects use mailing lists for communication.
It is The Apache Way.
See http://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#communication
On Tue, Jul 31, 2018 at 10:10 AM Chris Brody <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I would really love to see a better discussion forum for ideas. I
> think the mail list is not so handy for forums with cross-referencing
> and cordova-discuss proved to be a failure. npm.community seems to
> have nailed it, though it may have been meant to solve another
> problem. Any comments?
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org