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Posted to jmeter-dev@jakarta.apache.org by Michael Stover <ms...@apache.org> on 2004/03/15 17:30:42 UTC
becoming top-level
The latest apache craze is for mature projects to become "top-level"
projects. For instance, it seems struts will probably go top-level, and
HttpClient is trying to as well. I'm not exactly sure of all the issues
involved, but being top-level essentially means the project has a peer
relationship to Jakarta, rather then a child relationship. So, top
level projects have to form a project management committee of their own,
and get a XXX.apache.org namespace on the webserver.
I'm generally of the opinion that if it doesn't help me write code I'm
not much interested, but I figure people should know what our options
are, as well as the direction jakarta is trying to push projects like
JMeter. I guess, in theory, we're not supposed to hang out under the
jakarta banner forever and are expected to "graduate". Still, it's a
move I would put off until forced to do otherwise.
--
Michael Stover <ms...@apache.org>
Apache Software Foundation
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Re: becoming top-level
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004, Michael Stover <ms...@apache.org> wrote:
> For instance, it seems struts will probably go top-level, and
> HttpClient is trying to as well.
No, httpclient wants to become a Jakarta project, it currently is
nested a level deeper into Jakarta Commons.
> Still, it's a move I would put off until forced to do otherwise.
I wouldn't expect such a push.
Note that if you want to remain under the auspices of the Jakarta PMC,
only the Jakarta PMC can decide whether you are allowed to make a
release or not. The PMC has never taken any steps to veto a release
AFAIK, but legally only the PMC has binding votes on releases. If you
want to stay a Jakarta project, make sure that all/most of your
committers are on the Jakarta PMC.
Stefan
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Re: becoming top-level
Posted by mstover <ms...@rochester.rr.com>.
Yes, this matches what I've seen from jakarta's pmc - they theoretically
want all committers on the pmc, and they're eager to have more thorough
oversight of the projects in jakarta.
Right now, JMeter seems to fly under the radar and not get much
attention, which seems to be something most of us like. Moving to top
level would probably change that.
-Mike
On Mon, 2004-03-15 at 17:32, Scott Eade wrote:
> My understanding is that the jakarta project is comming under pressure
> from the ASF board to increase oversight which is currently seen as
> lacking because the pmc is so small as compared to the number of
> committers - the point being that the pmc is the official eyes and ears
> of the board when it comes to things like ensuring that copyright is
> handled correctly and future direction is being set.
>
> I may not be totally correct on all of this stuff, but I believe the
> jakarta pmc is actively encouraging jakarta committers to volunteer to
> become members of the pmc to address the concerns of the board. At the
> same time it is assisting those projects that wish to be promoted to
> top-level projects to do so.
>
> One thing that has come out of all of the discussion is that it is the
> pmc and not committers who have binding votes on determining if releases
> occur and when new committers come on board. Also, by being part of the
> jakarta pmc you are collectively responsible for all of jakarta, not
> just the bits that you work on. I think these are the issues that would
> sway me towards a top level project.
>
> Now all of this said, I would suggest that unless there were one or more
> other pieces of jakarta that could fit with jmeter into a new top level
> project with some common thread, that jakarta is probably the best place
> for jmeter at present.
>
> I don't think becoming a member of the jakarta pmc is anything to be
> afraid of, in fact I think that until recently most committers would
> have assumed they had most of the responsibilities that actually lie
> with the pmc anyway (though perhaps limited to the projects to which
> they have commit access).
>
> I haven't contributed anything to jmeter in quite a while (and didn't
> really contribute that much when I was active), but I must say that I am
> really impressed with the level of development activity going on at
> present and the community that is supporting it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Scott
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Re: becoming top-level
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004, Scott Eade <se...@backstagetech.com.au> wrote:
> My understanding is that the jakarta project is comming under
> pressure from the ASF board to increase oversight which is currently
> seen as lacking because the pmc is so small as compared to the
> number of committers - the point being that the pmc is the official
> eyes and ears of the board when it comes to things like ensuring
> that copyright is handled correctly and future direction is being
> set.
The Jakarta PMC is expanding to address this. Mike is on the Jakarta
PMC and he can (and should) nominate additional PMC members from the
JMeter committer crew - unless you are clear you'd want to leave
Jakarta so this would be redundant.
> I may not be totally correct on all of this stuff, but I believe the
> jakarta pmc is actively encouraging jakarta committers to volunteer
> to become members of the pmc to address the concerns of the board.
Absolutely.
> One thing that has come out of all of the discussion is that it is
> the pmc and not committers who have binding votes on determining if
> releases occur and when new committers come on board.
This is correct.
> Also, by being part of the jakarta pmc you are collectively
> responsible for all of jakarta, not just the bits that you work on.
As well as that.
> Now all of this said, I would suggest that unless there were one or
> more other pieces of jakarta that could fit with jmeter into a new
> top level project with some common thread, that jakarta is probably
> the best place for jmeter at present.
You may think beyond Jakarta and maybe beyond Java ...
Cheers
Stefan
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Re: becoming top-level
Posted by Scott Eade <se...@backstagetech.com.au>.
My understanding is that the jakarta project is comming under pressure
from the ASF board to increase oversight which is currently seen as
lacking because the pmc is so small as compared to the number of
committers - the point being that the pmc is the official eyes and ears
of the board when it comes to things like ensuring that copyright is
handled correctly and future direction is being set.
I may not be totally correct on all of this stuff, but I believe the
jakarta pmc is actively encouraging jakarta committers to volunteer to
become members of the pmc to address the concerns of the board. At the
same time it is assisting those projects that wish to be promoted to
top-level projects to do so.
One thing that has come out of all of the discussion is that it is the
pmc and not committers who have binding votes on determining if releases
occur and when new committers come on board. Also, by being part of the
jakarta pmc you are collectively responsible for all of jakarta, not
just the bits that you work on. I think these are the issues that would
sway me towards a top level project.
Now all of this said, I would suggest that unless there were one or more
other pieces of jakarta that could fit with jmeter into a new top level
project with some common thread, that jakarta is probably the best place
for jmeter at present.
I don't think becoming a member of the jakarta pmc is anything to be
afraid of, in fact I think that until recently most committers would
have assumed they had most of the responsibilities that actually lie
with the pmc anyway (though perhaps limited to the projects to which
they have commit access).
I haven't contributed anything to jmeter in quite a while (and didn't
really contribute that much when I was active), but I must say that I am
really impressed with the level of development activity going on at
present and the community that is supporting it.
Cheers,
Scott
--
Scott Eade
Backstage Technologies Pty. Ltd.
http://www.backstagetech.com.au
Michael Stover wrote:
>The latest apache craze is for mature projects to become "top-level"
>projects. For instance, it seems struts will probably go top-level, and
>HttpClient is trying to as well. I'm not exactly sure of all the issues
>involved, but being top-level essentially means the project has a peer
>relationship to Jakarta, rather then a child relationship. So, top
>level projects have to form a project management committee of their own,
>and get a XXX.apache.org namespace on the webserver.
>
>I'm generally of the opinion that if it doesn't help me write code I'm
>not much interested, but I figure people should know what our options
>are, as well as the direction jakarta is trying to push projects like
>JMeter. I guess, in theory, we're not supposed to hang out under the
>jakarta banner forever and are expected to "graduate". Still, it's a
>move I would put off until forced to do otherwise.
>
>
>
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Re: becoming top-level
Posted by peter lin <jm...@yahoo.com>.
hehe. I guess it's my personal adversion toward management roles :)
peter
Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org> wrote:
Some comments from an outsider.
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004, peter lin wrote:
> I don't have a preference either way, unless it means I have to be a
> PMC. I don't really want to be a PMC and would rather focus on
> coding. feels like apache is becoming more corporate.
I think your perception is wrong, or at least it could be wrong,
depends on what you (the JMeter developers) want to make of it.
I'm member of three PMCs and the chairman of one, so let's assume I
know what I'm talking about. 8-)
Being on a PMC may mean exactly nothing else than (1) being a
developer of the project, (2) being legally backed by the ASF for
anything that's part of the project and (3) no longer be encumbered by
the Jakarta PMC (if you felt that way).
After the initial steps, the Ant PMC does more or less exactly
nothing. We have to put together a quaterly report (well, Conor does)
and that's all. Nothing else happens on the PMC list. I fully expect
the same to be true for the Gump PMC. The Jakarta PMC is a different
beast, but it all comes down to how you want to run your PMC.
> I vote for putting off until Jakarta PMC kicks JMeter up to top
> level.
IMHO this will never happen. The Jakarta PMC has stated many times
that it (we) encourages projects that want to leave the Jakarta
umbrella, but that it will not force any project to take that step.
Cheers
Stefan
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Re: becoming top-level
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
Some comments from an outsider.
On Mon, 15 Mar 2004, peter lin <jm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I don't have a preference either way, unless it means I have to be a
> PMC. I don't really want to be a PMC and would rather focus on
> coding. feels like apache is becoming more corporate.
I think your perception is wrong, or at least it could be wrong,
depends on what you (the JMeter developers) want to make of it.
I'm member of three PMCs and the chairman of one, so let's assume I
know what I'm talking about. 8-)
Being on a PMC may mean exactly nothing else than (1) being a
developer of the project, (2) being legally backed by the ASF for
anything that's part of the project and (3) no longer be encumbered by
the Jakarta PMC (if you felt that way).
After the initial steps, the Ant PMC does more or less exactly
nothing. We have to put together a quaterly report (well, Conor does)
and that's all. Nothing else happens on the PMC list. I fully expect
the same to be true for the Gump PMC. The Jakarta PMC is a different
beast, but it all comes down to how you want to run your PMC.
> I vote for putting off until Jakarta PMC kicks JMeter up to top
> level.
IMHO this will never happen. The Jakarta PMC has stated many times
that it (we) encourages projects that want to leave the Jakarta
umbrella, but that it will not force any project to take that step.
Cheers
Stefan
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Re: becoming top-level
Posted by peter lin <jm...@yahoo.com>.
I don't have a preference either way, unless it means I have to be a PMC. I don't really want to be a PMC and would rather focus on coding. feels like apache is becoming more corporate.
I vote for putting off until Jakarta PMC kicks JMeter up to top level.
peter
Michael Stover <ms...@apache.org> wrote:
The latest apache craze is for mature projects to become "top-level"
projects. For instance, it seems struts will probably go top-level, and
HttpClient is trying to as well. I'm not exactly sure of all the issues
involved, but being top-level essentially means the project has a peer
relationship to Jakarta, rather then a child relationship. So, top
level projects have to form a project management committee of their own,
and get a XXX.apache.org namespace on the webserver.
I'm generally of the opinion that if it doesn't help me write code I'm
not much interested, but I figure people should know what our options
are, as well as the direction jakarta is trying to push projects like
JMeter. I guess, in theory, we're not supposed to hang out under the
jakarta banner forever and are expected to "graduate". Still, it's a
move I would put off until forced to do otherwise.
--
Michael Stover
Apache Software Foundation
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