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Posted to general@commons.apache.org by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org> on 2002/10/25 01:30:42 UTC
languages (was: Why Apache Commons?)
On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 01:32:46PM -0400, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> brain dump, and probably not politically correct. oh, well.
>
> Scott Sanders wrote:
> > The only thing I actually worry about is getting too many j-c'ers
> > over here, and not having an equivalent viewpoint from the non-java
> > side. If the c/perl/python/yal side is not represented here, we
> > may have the same amount of 'brokeness' that exists in j-c today
> > in some people's minds.
>
> [perl i think is a non-starter here because of cpan. :-)]
> greg is a rabid python person;
You got that right :-) Yes, the Python aspect will be well-represented. In
fact, I already have modules "in the wings" that I have never been able to
donate to the ASF simply because they didn't have a home. Now... oh yah!
Here are several items (all can be found in the ViewCVS distro) that I can
think of which make sense (to me) as part of Apache Commons:
* ezt.py -- a easy little templating system
* vclib -- a package for working with different version control systems
* rcsparse -- a package for parsing CVS/RCS ,v files
If I went scrounging, I could probably find other interesting bits, but
those modules are actually quite useful components. The ezt module, in
particular, I've been using in all my CGI apps recently.
I would also like to add ViewCVS, but that is an application, so I don't see
how it can be construed as matching the goals of Commons. It also doesn't
have any other home at the ASF, so it'll just sit where it is...
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: languages (was: Why Apache Commons?)
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Oct 25, 2002 at 09:21:12AM +0200, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
...
> >anakia is just a single ant task that uses velocity. More akin to
> >xalan than forrest. However jakarta-site2/ has a bunch of xsl/velocity
> >templates that are kinda similar in purpose to forrest.
>
> I'd add that the xdocs in Forrest are very very similar to the ones of
> Anakia.
>
> The most notable
>
> <s1><s2><s3><s4> -> <section>
> <a> -> <link>
> <s1 title="blah"> -> <section><title>blah</title></section>
The most notable difference is that Forrest actually HAS a DTD. The XML
behind jakarta.apache.org is most accurately described as stripped-down,
well-formed HTML. No pretence of separating content from presentation.
The xml-site2 files contain <b>, <i>, <hr>, <font>, @valign, @align,
@size, <h1>, <h2>, etc. I'm not sure why they even bothered with XML.
There, I feel much better :)
--Jeff
(trying to write a stylesheet to convert that stuff into Forrest's
format, for the Maven plugin, and not feeling kindly towards anakia's XML
format..)
Re: languages (was: Why Apache Commons?)
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Peter Donald wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:07, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 25 Oct 2002, Peter Donald wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:53, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>>>
>>>Just in case you are not aware there is also a bunch of other tool
>>>related code at jakarta/xml. Of those that I am aware;
>>>
>>>* gump: continuous integration tool
>>>* ant: build tool
>>>* maven: build and infrastructure tool
>>>* forrest: documentation infrastructure tool
>>
>>anakia? all that xdoc stuff that does my head in. Or is that the same as
>>forrest?
>
>
> anakia is just a single ant task that uses velocity. More akin to xalan than
> forrest. However jakarta-site2/ has a bunch of xsl/velocity templates that
> are kinda similar in purpose to forrest.
I'd add that the xdocs in Forrest are very very similar to the ones of
Anakia.
The most notable
<s1><s2><s3><s4> -> <section>
<a> -> <link>
<s1 title="blah"> -> <section><title>blah</title></section>
It's really easy to use Forrest.
Just install it ala-Ant (ie make FORREST_HOME and put the bin dir in you
path), then cd in the project dir and run
forrest
Simple as that.
There is a major feature though, that is that Forrest can be used as a
webapp, in Tomcat for example.
So you can simply point to the live local site, and when you want to see
the changes you doon't need to run a script to regen it all, just hit
reload on the browser :-)
We are now working on embedding the webserver and adding editing
capability in the browser, but that will be in some weeks time.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: languages (was: Why Apache Commons?)
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On 10/25/02 1:46 AM, "Peter Donald" <pe...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:07, Henri Yandell wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Oct 2002, Peter Donald wrote:
>>> On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:53, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>>>
>>> Just in case you are not aware there is also a bunch of other tool
>>> related code at jakarta/xml. Of those that I am aware;
>>>
>>> * gump: continuous integration tool
>>> * ant: build tool
>>> * maven: build and infrastructure tool
>>> * forrest: documentation infrastructure tool
>>
>> anakia? all that xdoc stuff that does my head in. Or is that the same as
>> forrest?
>
> anakia is just a single ant task that uses velocity. More akin to xalan than
> forrest. However jakarta-site2/ has a bunch of xsl/velocity templates that
> are kinda similar in purpose to forrest.
Just to pile on - DVSL is an alternative to anakia that uses the same
document format :)
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
geirm@adeptra.com +1-203-355-2219 (w)
Adeptra Inc. +1-203-247-1713 (m)
Re: languages (was: Why Apache Commons?)
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:07, Henri Yandell wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Oct 2002, Peter Donald wrote:
> > On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:53, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> >
> > Just in case you are not aware there is also a bunch of other tool
> > related code at jakarta/xml. Of those that I am aware;
> >
> > * gump: continuous integration tool
> > * ant: build tool
> > * maven: build and infrastructure tool
> > * forrest: documentation infrastructure tool
>
> anakia? all that xdoc stuff that does my head in. Or is that the same as
> forrest?
anakia is just a single ant task that uses velocity. More akin to xalan than
forrest. However jakarta-site2/ has a bunch of xsl/velocity templates that
are kinda similar in purpose to forrest.
--
Cheers,
Peter Donald
-------------------------------------------------------
To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme
excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the
enemy's resistance without fighting. - Sun Tzu, 300 B.C.
-------------------------------------------------------
Re: languages (was: Why Apache Commons?)
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Fri, 25 Oct 2002, Peter Donald wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:53, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>
> Just in case you are not aware there is also a bunch of other tool related
> code at jakarta/xml. Of those that I am aware;
>
> * gump: continuous integration tool
> * ant: build tool
> * maven: build and infrastructure tool
> * forrest: documentation infrastructure tool
anakia? all that xdoc stuff that does my head in. Or is that the same as
forrest?
Hen
Re: languages (was: Why Apache Commons?)
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:53, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> --On Thursday, October 24, 2002 4:30 PM -0700 Greg Stein
>
> <gs...@lyra.org> wrote:
> > I would also like to add ViewCVS, but that is an application, so I
> > don't see how it can be construed as matching the goals of Commons.
> > It also doesn't have any other home at the ASF, so it'll just sit
> > where it is...
>
> If you ask me, ViewCVS is a 'tool that promotes reusability.' Note
> the phrase 'creation and maintenance' in the charter. It might be a
> stretch, but I'm not sure by how much though. So, I believe I could
> construe how ViewCVS fits under commons. I'd like to find a home for
> my libtool-replacement as well - it's sort of in the same boat as
> ViewCVS.
>
> A tools project might be sufficient, but I definitely see how we
> could start with a tools component/section in commons. If enough
> code comes by under 'tools,' we spin it off into a tools top-level
> project. At this point, I definitely don't want to start yet another
> top-level project. I'm not sure I can handle the email load... --
> justin
Just in case you are not aware there is also a bunch of other tool related
code at jakarta/xml. Of those that I am aware;
* gump: continuous integration tool
* ant: build tool
* maven: build and infrastructure tool
* forrest: documentation infrastructure tool
And affiliated but not Apache would be centipede.
And these are just the bigger ones live ones. There are plenty of little
smaller bits such as;
jxr/jxr2 etc (a cross referencing tool for java code).
jrcs (RCS parser and diff engine)
jjar (if still alive?)
And there is also graveyard stuff ala;
* stylebook
* alexandria
It is probably a bit much to try and break out another top-level project now
but it is something to think about in the future.
--
Cheers,
Peter Donald
Einstein argued that there must be simplified explanations of nature, because
God is not capricious or arbitrary. No such faith comforts the software
engineer.
- Fred Brooks, Jr.
Re: languages (was: Why Apache Commons?)
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 09:53:17PM -0700, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> If you ask me, ViewCVS is a 'tool that promotes reusability.' Note
> the phrase 'creation and maintenance' in the charter. It might be a
> stretch, but I'm not sure by how much though. So, I believe I could
> construe how ViewCVS fits under commons. I'd like to find a home for
> my libtool-replacement as well - it's sort of in the same boat as
> ViewCVS.
Naw, Greg has it right. Neither of these fit within the charter
given to Commons, IMHO.
We have to be careful not to try and fit round pegs into square holes.
Part of the problem Jakarta is up against is a multiplicity of round
pegs that probably shouldn't have been created under the limited
scope of Jakarta. That doesn't mean there isn't another place for
these projects to live at the ASF.
> A tools project might be sufficient, but I definitely see how we
> could start with a tools component/section in commons. If enough
> code comes by under 'tools,' we spin it off into a tools top-level
> project. At this point, I definitely don't want to start yet another
> top-level project. I'm not sure I can handle the email load... --
Commons is not about spin-off projects. Commons is about a permanent
home for reusable libraries. (all of this is IMHO)
-aaron
Re: languages (was: Why Apache Commons?)
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
--On Thursday, October 24, 2002 4:30 PM -0700 Greg Stein
<gs...@lyra.org> wrote:
> I would also like to add ViewCVS, but that is an application, so I
> don't see how it can be construed as matching the goals of Commons.
> It also doesn't have any other home at the ASF, so it'll just sit
> where it is...
If you ask me, ViewCVS is a 'tool that promotes reusability.' Note
the phrase 'creation and maintenance' in the charter. It might be a
stretch, but I'm not sure by how much though. So, I believe I could
construe how ViewCVS fits under commons. I'd like to find a home for
my libtool-replacement as well - it's sort of in the same boat as
ViewCVS.
A tools project might be sufficient, but I definitely see how we
could start with a tools component/section in commons. If enough
code comes by under 'tools,' we spin it off into a tools top-level
project. At this point, I definitely don't want to start yet another
top-level project. I'm not sure I can handle the email load... --
justin
ViewCVS, WAS: RE: languages (was: Why Apache Commons?)
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
> From: Greg Stein [mailto:gstein@lyra.org]
> Sent: 25 October 2002 01:31
> I would also like to add ViewCVS, but that is an application, so I don't see
> how it can be construed as matching the goals of Commons. It also doesn't
> have any other home at the ASF, so it'll just sit where it is...
That depends on how we view ViewCVS. Is it a 'tool' to help development like
'jlibtool' (needs another name btw)? Can we reach agreement on whether tools
fit in Commons or not?
Sander