Re: 'Just say no to JSP'

[Ea...@EAS.San-Jose.CA.US]

Why has the tomcat-dev list become a Velocity advocacy list??
Isn't the purpose of this list supposed to be for communation between
Tomcat developers?  Is velocity recruiting or something?

=eas=
On  6 Apr, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cmanolache@yahoo.com [mailto:cmanolache@yahoo.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 20:57
> 
>  
>> Arguing what is the best programming language or if interpreted is
>> better than compiled is mostly a waste of time. Some people will
>> prefer to learn VTL, other will prefer to use Java, other will like
>> the XML-like syntax.
> 
> Sure. And compiled is still an open option for Velocity.
> 
> 
>> I think code generation is a good thing, ...
> 
> Sure, some template use problems could be easier to debug if there is
> some intermediate source code and a good debugger.
> 
>> ... and I prefer using Jsp with Java
>> for quick prototypes and taglibs when possible.
> 
>

Re: 'Just say no to JSP'

[Paul Speed <Pa...@metrixpoint.com>]

Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> 
> Earl,
> 
> If you think one should not discuss the merits of JSP here, you should
> not take part on it even if to defend JSP.
> 
> If you agree we should talk about the pros and cons of JSPs, it is hard
> to talk about the cons of JSP in a constructive way without pointing
> alternatives. Can one just say it is bad without pointing alternatives
> and still give worthy input?
> 
> Or do you just want to talk about the pros?
> =;o)
> 
> Clearly, there are some problems with JSPs. Supporting a clear
> separation between logic (scripting) and presentation (templating) is
> not easy to enforce with JSPs. And this is a discussion going on in
> many forums.
> 
> Now, JSPs are nice for scripting stuff (when you want to code and see
> the result with no compiling/restarts). I even thought of using JSPs
> for the scripting with Velocity for templating!!! And this is not such
> new idea since there are people using JSPs with XSLT for the same
> purposes.
> 
> But XSLT just makes things too hard. Too much cost for not enough
> profit. I just converted a XSLT based application to Velocity and I
> sure know what I am talking about.
> 
> Maybe JSPs just need something extra for the templating side. Maybe
> JSPs can learn that from Velocity/WebMacro template engines.
> 
> And this list is one of the best spots to talk about this. The right
> people read this. * Isn't Tomcat the reference JSP implementation? *

	Is is.  But the tomcat team doesn't set the spec, it just
implements it.

	-Paul

> 
> Have fun,
> Paulo Gaspar
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Earl.Stutes@EAS.San-Jose.CA.US
> > [mailto:Earl.Stutes@EAS.San-Jose.CA.US]
> > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 18:48
> >
> > Why has the tomcat-dev list become a Velocity advocacy list??
> > Isn't the purpose of this list supposed to be for communation between
> > Tomcat developers?  Is velocity recruiting or something?
> >
> > =eas=

RE: 'Just say no to JSP'

[Paulo Gaspar <pa...@krankikom.de>]

Earl,


If you think one should not discuss the merits of JSP here, you should
not take part on it even if to defend JSP.

If you agree we should talk about the pros and cons of JSPs, it is hard
to talk about the cons of JSP in a constructive way without pointing 
alternatives. Can one just say it is bad without pointing alternatives 
and still give worthy input?

Or do you just want to talk about the pros?
=;o)

Clearly, there are some problems with JSPs. Supporting a clear 
separation between logic (scripting) and presentation (templating) is
not easy to enforce with JSPs. And this is a discussion going on in 
many forums.

Now, JSPs are nice for scripting stuff (when you want to code and see
the result with no compiling/restarts). I even thought of using JSPs 
for the scripting with Velocity for templating!!! And this is not such
new idea since there are people using JSPs with XSLT for the same 
purposes.

But XSLT just makes things too hard. Too much cost for not enough 
profit. I just converted a XSLT based application to Velocity and I 
sure know what I am talking about.

Maybe JSPs just need something extra for the templating side. Maybe 
JSPs can learn that from Velocity/WebMacro template engines.

And this list is one of the best spots to talk about this. The right
people read this. * Isn't Tomcat the reference JSP implementation? *


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Earl.Stutes@EAS.San-Jose.CA.US
> [mailto:Earl.Stutes@EAS.San-Jose.CA.US]
> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 18:48
> 
> Why has the tomcat-dev list become a Velocity advocacy list??
> Isn't the purpose of this list supposed to be for communation between
> Tomcat developers?  Is velocity recruiting or something?
> 
> =eas=

Re: 'Just say no to JSP'

["Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>]

On Fri, 6 Apr 2001, Jon Stevens wrote:

> on 4/6/01 9:48 AM, "Earl.Stutes@EAS.San-Jose.CA.US"
> <Ea...@EAS.San-Jose.CA.US> wrote:
> 
> > Why has the tomcat-dev list become a Velocity advocacy list??
> > Isn't the purpose of this list supposed to be for communation between
> > Tomcat developers?  Is velocity recruiting or something?
> > 
> > =eas=
> 
> Yes!
> 
> :-)
> 

Velocity advocacy is a fine thing for those interested in it.

Unfortunately, it's off topic for TOMCAT-DEV.  Can we please stop drowning
out the legitimate discussions this list is for?

> -jon
> 
> 
Craig

Re: 'Just say no to JSP'

[Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>]

on 4/6/01 9:48 AM, "Earl.Stutes@EAS.San-Jose.CA.US"
<Ea...@EAS.San-Jose.CA.US> wrote:

> Why has the tomcat-dev list become a Velocity advocacy list??
> Isn't the purpose of this list supposed to be for communation between
> Tomcat developers?  Is velocity recruiting or something?
> 
> =eas=

Yes!

:-)

-jon