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Posted to dev@netbeans.apache.org by Emilian Bold <em...@apache.org> on 2017/06/12 07:35:50 UTC
Commercial Support page
Hello,
I have created with Geertjan the commercial support page for Apache
NetBeans (Incubating):
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Commercial+Support
This is in line with the commercial support pages I've seen on
other[1][2][3][4] Apache projects.
Please add yourself or your company if you are offering commercial
services related to NetBeans.
I believe we can leave the wiki open for all initially. The Apache
TomEE additions policy[5] seems very common sense and could be used as
an inspiration later on:
> The [...P]PMC does not and cannot endorse or recommend any products or services.
>
> All submitted information must be factual and informational in nature and not be a marketing statement. Statements that promote your products and services over other offerings on the page will not be tolerated and will be removed. Such marketing statements can be added to your own pages on your own site.
>
> When in doubt, email the [...P]PMC list [...] and ask. We are be happy to help.
We could also have a commercial support page on the main website.
1. https://wiki.apache.org/hadoop/Support
2. https://mahout.apache.org/general/professional-support.html
3. https://james.apache.org/support.html
4. http://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
5. http://tomee.apache.org/add-my-offering.html
--emi
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>.
> In that case we can add "non breaking space" instead of underscore
Thanks! This did the trick.
--emi
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Tushar Joshi <tu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 5:51 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> > can we change “Applicant_Name” to “Applicant Name”
>>
>> I did that on purpose to force some width to the column. Confluence
>> will split the table header on two lines and leave most of the table
>> width to the 'Details' column...
>
>
> In that case we can add "non breaking space" instead of underscore
>
> with regards
> Tushar
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Tushar Joshi <tu...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 5:51 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> > can we change “Applicant_Name” to “Applicant Name”
>
> I did that on purpose to force some width to the column. Confluence
> will split the table header on two lines and leave most of the table
> width to the 'Details' column...
In that case we can add "non breaking space" instead of underscore
with regards
Tushar
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>.
> can we change “Applicant_Name” to “Applicant Name”
I did that on purpose to force some width to the column. Confluence
will split the table header on two lines and leave most of the table
width to the 'Details' column...
--emi
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Richard Lowery
<Ri...@guilding.com> wrote:
> Just a formatting question… can we change “Applicant_Name” to “Applicant Name” …
>
> --
> Richard H. Lowery
> Guilding IS, LLC
> "Guilding IS Crafting Solutions for Individual and Organizational Success "
> M: 850.559.9923 | E: Richard.H.Lowery@guilding.com
> Linked In: Richard H. Lowery <http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardhlowery>
>
>
>
> On 6/12/17, 7:52 AM, "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > ...I've introduced the additions policy based on the TomEE policy and
> > I've explained that we use alphabetical ordering...
>
> Works for me, thanks!
>
> > ...If the format and rules look OK I'll send another email (on the dev@
> > mailing list?) asking for myself to be (re)added on the 'People and
> > Companies for Hire'...
>
> I think there's no doubt that your company deserves to be listed there ;-)
>
> -Bertrand
>
>
>
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Richard Lowery <Ri...@guilding.com>.
Just a formatting question… can we change “Applicant_Name” to “Applicant Name” …
--
Richard H. Lowery
Guilding IS, LLC
"Guilding IS Crafting Solutions for Individual and Organizational Success "
M: 850.559.9923 | E: Richard.H.Lowery@guilding.com
Linked In: Richard H. Lowery <http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardhlowery>
On 6/12/17, 7:52 AM, "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...I've introduced the additions policy based on the TomEE policy and
> I've explained that we use alphabetical ordering...
Works for me, thanks!
> ...If the format and rules look OK I'll send another email (on the dev@
> mailing list?) asking for myself to be (re)added on the 'People and
> Companies for Hire'...
I think there's no doubt that your company deserves to be listed there ;-)
-Bertrand
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 7:59 AM, Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> ...if we err on the side of being open and accessible,
> that's probably better than being closed off and a blocker to the success
> of contributors to this project...
Agreed - I see two potential problems that this (P)PMC needs to be
careful about:
a) abuse - someone adding their name their just to get a link from an
Apache domain, but they don't belong on that page
b) favoring one vendor or organization over others, which is not ok
for Apache projects
As long as you're careful about those it's great to be as open as
possible, of course.
-Bertrand
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>.
Yes, definitely, and great to see you here, and there on the Commercial
Support page, Oliver.
I think we do still need to figure out a way forward with the Commercial
Support page, though if we err on the side of being open and accessible,
that's probably better than being closed off and a blocker to the success
of contributors to this project.
Gj
On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 7:57 AM, Oliver Rettig <Ol...@orat.de>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > Yes, looks like people are simply adding entries there at the moment.
> >
> > Not sure if this is what we want -- maybe that notice needs to be at the
> > top of the page.
> >
> sorry, I think I am one of the people. I thought this was the idea of the
> wiki page to do this on my own. I do not want to make somebody any
> additional
> work. If I understand the discussion correctly you are afraid the list will
> grow a way with people which are not very experienced with Netbeans.
>
> I think I am not known in the netbeans community because the last 10 years
> I
> have worked mainly on netbeans platform applications, which are not
> commonly
> visible. Projects for companys and mainly scientific desktop applications,
> which are used from a very small biomechanis commuity at university of
> Heidelberg, Zürich and Tübingen.
>
> I am just thinking about to make more customer projects for companys to be
> able to make my biomechanics software open source so that it can be used
> from
> a bigger community. I have spend so much time in this toolchain so that I
> want
> to make useful for more pepole but the biomechanics community is too small
> to
> make it to a product.
>
> The netbeans platform was so useful for my biomechanics research that i
> want
> to give something back. Over the years I have implemented lots of manly
> small
> codefragments for my applications which I think can be useful for the nb
> platform community. So I am very motivated:-)
>
> Hopefully, I cauld explain why I think it is useful to add me on the wiki
> page.
>
> best regards
> Oliver
>
> > Yes, looks like people are simply adding entries there at the moment.
> >
> > Not sure if this is what we want -- maybe that notice needs to be at the
> > top of the page.
> >
> > I also think that maybe there needs to be a column for a GitHub link or a
> > link to a page of with evidence of some kind of work that has been done
> > with, e.g., the NetBeans Platform, though I know that can be difficult in
> > some cases, e.g., quite a lot of NetBeans Platform work is done behind
> the
> > firewall, etc. What's to prevent any random person adding their details
> to
> > the page? I guess this is where the process of first writing to the
> mailing
> > list would come in handy.
> >
> > Gj
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 6:12 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> >
> > wrote:
> > > > > ...If the format and rules look OK I'll send another email (on the
> > > > > dev@
> > > > > mailing list?) asking for myself to be (re)added on the 'People and
> > > > > Companies for Hire'...
> > > >
> > > > I think there's no doubt that your company deserves to be listed
> there
> > >
> > > ;-)
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks! The point was to enforce a given process without exceptions. I
> > > already see two new edits that did not start from the mailing list as
> > > planned...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --emi
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > > bdelacretaz@apache.org
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Emilian Bold <
> emilian.bold@gmail.com>
> > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > ...I've introduced the additions policy based on the TomEE policy
> and
> > > > > I've explained that we use alphabetical ordering...
> > > >
> > > > Works for me, thanks!
> > > >
> > > > > ...If the format and rules look OK I'll send another email (on the
> > > > > dev@
> > > > > mailing list?) asking for myself to be (re)added on the 'People and
> > > > > Companies for Hire'...
> > > >
> > > > I think there's no doubt that your company deserves to be listed
> there
> > >
> > > ;-)
> > >
> > > > -Bertrand
>
>
>
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Oliver Rettig <Ol...@orat.de>.
Hi,
> Yes, looks like people are simply adding entries there at the moment.
>
> Not sure if this is what we want -- maybe that notice needs to be at the
> top of the page.
>
sorry, I think I am one of the people. I thought this was the idea of the
wiki page to do this on my own. I do not want to make somebody any additional
work. If I understand the discussion correctly you are afraid the list will
grow a way with people which are not very experienced with Netbeans.
I think I am not known in the netbeans community because the last 10 years I
have worked mainly on netbeans platform applications, which are not commonly
visible. Projects for companys and mainly scientific desktop applications,
which are used from a very small biomechanis commuity at university of
Heidelberg, Zürich and Tübingen.
I am just thinking about to make more customer projects for companys to be
able to make my biomechanics software open source so that it can be used from
a bigger community. I have spend so much time in this toolchain so that I want
to make useful for more pepole but the biomechanics community is too small to
make it to a product.
The netbeans platform was so useful for my biomechanics research that i want
to give something back. Over the years I have implemented lots of manly small
codefragments for my applications which I think can be useful for the nb
platform community. So I am very motivated:-)
Hopefully, I cauld explain why I think it is useful to add me on the wiki
page.
best regards
Oliver
> Yes, looks like people are simply adding entries there at the moment.
>
> Not sure if this is what we want -- maybe that notice needs to be at the
> top of the page.
>
> I also think that maybe there needs to be a column for a GitHub link or a
> link to a page of with evidence of some kind of work that has been done
> with, e.g., the NetBeans Platform, though I know that can be difficult in
> some cases, e.g., quite a lot of NetBeans Platform work is done behind the
> firewall, etc. What's to prevent any random person adding their details to
> the page? I guess this is where the process of first writing to the mailing
> list would come in handy.
>
> Gj
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 6:12 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
>
> wrote:
> > > > ...If the format and rules look OK I'll send another email (on the
> > > > dev@
> > > > mailing list?) asking for myself to be (re)added on the 'People and
> > > > Companies for Hire'...
> > >
> > > I think there's no doubt that your company deserves to be listed there
> >
> > ;-)
> >
> >
> > Thanks! The point was to enforce a given process without exceptions. I
> > already see two new edits that did not start from the mailing list as
> > planned...
> >
> >
> >
> > --emi
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > bdelacretaz@apache.org
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > > ...I've introduced the additions policy based on the TomEE policy and
> > > > I've explained that we use alphabetical ordering...
> > >
> > > Works for me, thanks!
> > >
> > > > ...If the format and rules look OK I'll send another email (on the
> > > > dev@
> > > > mailing list?) asking for myself to be (re)added on the 'People and
> > > > Companies for Hire'...
> > >
> > > I think there's no doubt that your company deserves to be listed there
> >
> > ;-)
> >
> > > -Bertrand
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@googlemail.com>.
Hi,
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 5:43 PM Geertjan Wielenga <
geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Yes, looks like people are simply adding entries there at the moment.
>
> Not sure if this is what we want -- maybe that notice needs to be at the
> top of the page.
>
What's the criteria for wiki edit access? Personally I'd be happy with the
idea of this being open to anyone who's shown commitment to the project. Is
that enough of a gatekeeping process?
I also think that maybe there needs to be a column for a GitHub link or a
> link to a page of with evidence of some kind of work that has been done
> with, e.g., the NetBeans Platform,
>
+1 and possibly a tags / categories column? Longer term be nice to serve
this up to the static site as JSON or similar for client-side filtering,
and possibly randomized rather than alphabetical order!
Best wishes,
Neil
--
Neil C Smith
Artist & Technologist
www.neilcsmith.net
Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>.
Right. I can imagine that.
However, if you're not able to talk at all about the work you've done with
the NetBeans Platform, how is your interview going to work with a
prospective employer? If someone sees your name on the Commercial Support
page and then contacts you, what evidence will you be able to bring to
prove your years of NetBeans Platform experience and the kind of work
you've done with it?
Gj
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 6:45 PM, Richard Lowery <
Richard.H.Lowery@guilding.com> wrote:
> Yeah, IP terms in employment agreements has been a really big problem for
> some of us.
>
> --
> Richard H. Lowery
> Guilding IS, LLC
> "Guilding IS Crafting Solutions for Individual and Organizational Success "
> M: 850.559.9923 | E: Richard.H.Lowery@guilding.com
> Linked In: Richard H. Lowery <http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardhlowery>
>
>
>
> On 6/12/17, 12:43 PM, "Geertjan Wielenga" <geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.
> com> wrote:
>
> Yes, looks like people are simply adding entries there at the moment.
>
> Not sure if this is what we want -- maybe that notice needs to be at
> the
> top of the page.
>
> I also think that maybe there needs to be a column for a GitHub link
> or a
> link to a page of with evidence of some kind of work that has been done
> with, e.g., the NetBeans Platform, though I know that can be difficult
> in
> some cases, e.g., quite a lot of NetBeans Platform work is done behind
> the
> firewall, etc. What's to prevent any random person adding their
> details to
> the page? I guess this is where the process of first writing to the
> mailing
> list would come in handy.
>
> Gj
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 6:12 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > >
> > > > ...If the format and rules look OK I'll send another email (on
> the dev@
> > > > mailing list?) asking for myself to be (re)added on the 'People
> and
> > > > Companies for Hire'...
> > >
> > > I think there's no doubt that your company deserves to be listed
> there
> > ;-)
> >
> >
> > Thanks! The point was to enforce a given process without exceptions.
> I
> > already see two new edits that did not start from the mailing list as
> > planned...
> >
> >
> >
> > --emi
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > bdelacretaz@apache.org
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Emilian Bold <
> emilian.bold@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > ...I've introduced the additions policy based on the TomEE
> policy and
> > > > I've explained that we use alphabetical ordering...
> > >
> > > Works for me, thanks!
> > >
> > > > ...If the format and rules look OK I'll send another email (on
> the dev@
> > > > mailing list?) asking for myself to be (re)added on the 'People
> and
> > > > Companies for Hire'...
> > >
> > > I think there's no doubt that your company deserves to be listed
> there
> > ;-)
> > >
> > > -Bertrand
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Richard Lowery <Ri...@guilding.com>.
Yeah, IP terms in employment agreements has been a really big problem for some of us.
--
Richard H. Lowery
Guilding IS, LLC
"Guilding IS Crafting Solutions for Individual and Organizational Success "
M: 850.559.9923 | E: Richard.H.Lowery@guilding.com
Linked In: Richard H. Lowery <http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardhlowery>
On 6/12/17, 12:43 PM, "Geertjan Wielenga" <ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
Yes, looks like people are simply adding entries there at the moment.
Not sure if this is what we want -- maybe that notice needs to be at the
top of the page.
I also think that maybe there needs to be a column for a GitHub link or a
link to a page of with evidence of some kind of work that has been done
with, e.g., the NetBeans Platform, though I know that can be difficult in
some cases, e.g., quite a lot of NetBeans Platform work is done behind the
firewall, etc. What's to prevent any random person adding their details to
the page? I guess this is where the process of first writing to the mailing
list would come in handy.
Gj
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 6:12 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> >
> > > ...If the format and rules look OK I'll send another email (on the dev@
> > > mailing list?) asking for myself to be (re)added on the 'People and
> > > Companies for Hire'...
> >
> > I think there's no doubt that your company deserves to be listed there
> ;-)
>
>
> Thanks! The point was to enforce a given process without exceptions. I
> already see two new edits that did not start from the mailing list as
> planned...
>
>
>
> --emi
>
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org
> > wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > ...I've introduced the additions policy based on the TomEE policy and
> > > I've explained that we use alphabetical ordering...
> >
> > Works for me, thanks!
> >
> > > ...If the format and rules look OK I'll send another email (on the dev@
> > > mailing list?) asking for myself to be (re)added on the 'People and
> > > Companies for Hire'...
> >
> > I think there's no doubt that your company deserves to be listed there
> ;-)
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
>
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@apache.org>.
Hm, I was also thinking yesterday that in the new version 'support'
isn't defined. Services sounds better, indeed.
I also find it odd to start offering NetBeans related services and be
virtually unknown and unheard of in the NetBeans community in the past
decade.
But there might be situations where this might happen, like a newly
formed company (although they would have known employees) or maybe
some NATO contractor that was always anonymous on the mailing lists
but now is still able somehow to show some proof of skill/history.
I don't expect such situations to happen too much though. How could
one follow NetBeans development for years and never send or answer
mailing list questions, write on Stack Overflow, report bugs or write
a patch, go to some meetings? How can you not run into any bugs?
But if past involvement is known there should be no need for
involvement under Apache -- the services offered do have some backing.
Speaking of upstream and positive involvement: my customers were
always very open towards me spending billable time on bugs and submit
patches upstream to NetBeans. It makes total economic sense: you don't
want to maintain an in house fork too much -- once upstream it's
officially supported.
Still, it seems to me a bit harsh, unwelcoming, to expressly reject
such requests. We can handle them on a case by case basis on the
mailing list. Perhaps there are exceptions.
--emi
Pe 14 iun. 2017, la 12:01, Neil C Smith <ne...@googlemail.com> a scris:
>> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 9:03 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I don't believe the Commercial Support page should be a reward of some
>> kind.
>>
>> If a company (or individual) is in fact selling commercial support for
>> NetBeans they should be added if they formally ask for it.
>>
>
> I don't see why we should be advertising companies and individuals here who
> do not positively engage with the upstream community. There are many other
> ways they can advertise what they do. "Reward" might be the wrong word,
> but I think it's important that anyone on there is involved with the Apache
> NetBeans community because whether we say it isn't or not it will still be
> seen as some form of endorsement. The other way to word it would be to say
> the "price" of being on there is positive engagement.
>
> The one argument I can think of against that would be about growing the
> overall ecosystem. I'd be interested in your arguments for opening it more
> widely?
>
> Should I update the 1st line on the wiki with something like:
>>
>>> This page is dedicated to individuals or companies available for hire
>> for Apache NetBeans (Incubating) support.
>>
>>
> That seems worse to me than what you had earlier - "support" is a more
> problematic word than services. I don't read that as eg. a company that
> can provide development work building on the platform.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
> --
> Neil C Smith
> Artist & Technologist
> www.neilcsmith.net
>
> Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@googlemail.com>.
On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 9:03 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't believe the Commercial Support page should be a reward of some
> kind.
>
> If a company (or individual) is in fact selling commercial support for
> NetBeans they should be added if they formally ask for it.
>
I don't see why we should be advertising companies and individuals here who
do not positively engage with the upstream community. There are many other
ways they can advertise what they do. "Reward" might be the wrong word,
but I think it's important that anyone on there is involved with the Apache
NetBeans community because whether we say it isn't or not it will still be
seen as some form of endorsement. The other way to word it would be to say
the "price" of being on there is positive engagement.
The one argument I can think of against that would be about growing the
overall ecosystem. I'd be interested in your arguments for opening it more
widely?
Should I update the 1st line on the wiki with something like:
>
> > This page is dedicated to individuals or companies available for hire
> for Apache NetBeans (Incubating) support.
>
>
That seems worse to me than what you had earlier - "support" is a more
problematic word than services. I don't read that as eg. a company that
can provide development work building on the platform.
Best wishes,
Neil
--
Neil C Smith
Artist & Technologist
www.neilcsmith.net
Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>.
One of my ideas for the purpose of the page would be that if I come across
a link like the below, I'd add it to the second table on the page, since
there's a job here for NetBeans Platform developers that I'd like everyone
to know about:
https://www.freelancer.com/projects/Software-Architecture/Fix-Bug-with-Netbean-RCP/
Gj
On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 10:02 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> I don't believe the Commercial Support page should be a reward of some
> kind.
>
> If a company (or individual) is in fact selling commercial support for
> NetBeans they should be added if they formally ask for it.
>
> Still, it is up to the company or individual to be factual about how
> what they are selling is related to NetBeans. Then, it should be
> simple for the PPMC to decide.
>
> I was just thinking that there are multiple aspects here that should
> not be mingled. I just copy-pasted and adapted the first line from the
> Apache TomEE page:
>
> > This page is dedicated to individuals or companies offering products and
> services around or including Apache NetBeans (Incubating).
>
> but I believe now it's too vague.
>
> The Hadoop page (https://wiki.apache.org/hadoop/Support ) is more
> terse and clear:
>
> > The following parties may be available for hire for Hadoop support.
>
> The way I see it IDE users and "Platform users" would visit the
> Commercial Support page to look for commercial services.
>
> An IDE user (individual or company) might want to pay for some
> training or IDE customization.
>
> A (potential) Platform user might want to look for employees and
> contractors that know the Platform APIs or consultants.
>
> I'm still not sure when would listing a commercial product make sense.
>
> We already have the Platform Showcase to list existing (some,
> commercial) Platform apps. But no IDE or Platform user would visit the
> Commercial Support page to learn about a random 3rd party product.
> Maybe an enhanced commercial IDE based on NetBeans, but I can't think
> of other examples.
>
> We have the Plugin Center for smaller plugins which are not commercial
> but usually bridge towards some commercial offering.
>
> So the way the Hadoop Support page puts it makes more sense: support
> is a service and the parties listed should be available for hire.
>
> Should I update the 1st line on the wiki with something like:
>
> > This page is dedicated to individuals or companies available for hire
> for Apache NetBeans (Incubating) support.
>
> ?
>
> --emi
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Neil C Smith
> <ne...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 8:35 PM Geertjan Wielenga <
> > geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Re Neil's points: I suspect a lot of people and organisations may be
> coming
> >> out of the woodworks and that showing commitment to the project in
> order to
> >> add items to the Commercial Support page could be a blocker for
> perfectly
> >> well suited job seekers/vacancy fillers who may not be able to show
> >> commitment to the project.
> >>
> >
> > I've been thinking about this recently in the context of another
> > (admittedly smaller) open-source project. If someone here is given wiki
> > edit access they should be someone with a commitment, knowledge and
> > understanding of the NetBeans project. I'm not sure what requirements it
> > would be fair to add beyond that?
> >
> > At the same time, I'm happy with this being only for people being
> actively
> > involved here - if you want, it's a reward for showing commitment to
> giving
> > as well as taking.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
> > --
> > Neil C Smith
> > Artist & Technologist
> > www.neilcsmith.net
> >
> > Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org
>
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>.
I don't believe the Commercial Support page should be a reward of some kind.
If a company (or individual) is in fact selling commercial support for
NetBeans they should be added if they formally ask for it.
Still, it is up to the company or individual to be factual about how
what they are selling is related to NetBeans. Then, it should be
simple for the PPMC to decide.
I was just thinking that there are multiple aspects here that should
not be mingled. I just copy-pasted and adapted the first line from the
Apache TomEE page:
> This page is dedicated to individuals or companies offering products and services around or including Apache NetBeans (Incubating).
but I believe now it's too vague.
The Hadoop page (https://wiki.apache.org/hadoop/Support ) is more
terse and clear:
> The following parties may be available for hire for Hadoop support.
The way I see it IDE users and "Platform users" would visit the
Commercial Support page to look for commercial services.
An IDE user (individual or company) might want to pay for some
training or IDE customization.
A (potential) Platform user might want to look for employees and
contractors that know the Platform APIs or consultants.
I'm still not sure when would listing a commercial product make sense.
We already have the Platform Showcase to list existing (some,
commercial) Platform apps. But no IDE or Platform user would visit the
Commercial Support page to learn about a random 3rd party product.
Maybe an enhanced commercial IDE based on NetBeans, but I can't think
of other examples.
We have the Plugin Center for smaller plugins which are not commercial
but usually bridge towards some commercial offering.
So the way the Hadoop Support page puts it makes more sense: support
is a service and the parties listed should be available for hire.
Should I update the 1st line on the wiki with something like:
> This page is dedicated to individuals or companies available for hire for Apache NetBeans (Incubating) support.
?
--emi
On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Neil C Smith
<ne...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 8:35 PM Geertjan Wielenga <
> geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Re Neil's points: I suspect a lot of people and organisations may be coming
>> out of the woodworks and that showing commitment to the project in order to
>> add items to the Commercial Support page could be a blocker for perfectly
>> well suited job seekers/vacancy fillers who may not be able to show
>> commitment to the project.
>>
>
> I've been thinking about this recently in the context of another
> (admittedly smaller) open-source project. If someone here is given wiki
> edit access they should be someone with a commitment, knowledge and
> understanding of the NetBeans project. I'm not sure what requirements it
> would be fair to add beyond that?
>
> At the same time, I'm happy with this being only for people being actively
> involved here - if you want, it's a reward for showing commitment to giving
> as well as taking.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
> --
> Neil C Smith
> Artist & Technologist
> www.neilcsmith.net
>
> Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@googlemail.com>.
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 8:35 PM Geertjan Wielenga <
geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Re Neil's points: I suspect a lot of people and organisations may be coming
> out of the woodworks and that showing commitment to the project in order to
> add items to the Commercial Support page could be a blocker for perfectly
> well suited job seekers/vacancy fillers who may not be able to show
> commitment to the project.
>
I've been thinking about this recently in the context of another
(admittedly smaller) open-source project. If someone here is given wiki
edit access they should be someone with a commitment, knowledge and
understanding of the NetBeans project. I'm not sure what requirements it
would be fair to add beyond that?
At the same time, I'm happy with this being only for people being actively
involved here - if you want, it's a reward for showing commitment to giving
as well as taking.
Best wishes,
Neil
--
Neil C Smith
Artist & Technologist
www.neilcsmith.net
Praxis LIVE - hybrid visual IDE for creative coding - www.praxislive.org
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>.
Yes, good points, I think, Richard.
Re Neil's points: I suspect a lot of people and organisations may be coming
out of the woodworks and that showing commitment to the project in order to
add items to the Commercial Support page could be a blocker for perfectly
well suited job seekers/vacancy fillers who may not be able to show
commitment to the project.
Not sure how to handle this -- though I think a message right at the top
along the lines we've been discussing, i.e., 'should you want to appear on
this page, please drop a mail at the following address first, requiring you
to subscribe to it as follows'. That way we can do a tiny bit of vetting
first without blocking anyone too much.
Gj
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 9:12 PM, Richard Lowery <
Richard.H.Lowery@guilding.com> wrote:
> So, I’m still catching up on emails (ok, I went backwards and read more
> leading up)…
> I suggest that Geertjan is right that the “Have an Offering” notice
> should go at the top…
> I also suggest that the email to the Apache NetBeans (Incubating) PPMC
> email address link be in the notice, since it doesn’t “sound” clear that
> dev@ is the same thing.
>
>
> --
> Richard H. Lowery
> Guilding IS, LLC
> "Guilding IS Crafting Solutions for Individual and Organizational Success "
> M: 850.559.9923 | E: Richard.H.Lowery@guilding.com
> Linked In: Richard H. Lowery <http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardhlowery>
>
>
>
> On 6/12/17, 12:43 PM, "Geertjan Wielenga" <geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.
> com> wrote:
>
> Yes, looks like people are simply adding entries there at the moment.
>
> Not sure if this is what we want -- maybe that notice needs to be at
> the
> top of the page.
>
> I also think that maybe there needs to be a column for a GitHub link
> or a
> link to a page of with evidence of some kind of work that has been done
> with, e.g., the NetBeans Platform, though I know that can be difficult
> in
> some cases, e.g., quite a lot of NetBeans Platform work is done behind
> the
> firewall, etc. What's to prevent any random person adding their
> details to
> the page? I guess this is where the process of first writing to the
> mailing
> list would come in handy.
>
> Gj
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 6:12 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > >
> > > > ...If the format and rules look OK I'll send another email (on
> the dev@
> > > > mailing list?) asking for myself to be (re)added on the 'People
> and
> > > > Companies for Hire'...
> > >
> > > I think there's no doubt that your company deserves to be listed
> there
> > ;-)
> >
> >
> > Thanks! The point was to enforce a given process without exceptions.
> I
> > already see two new edits that did not start from the mailing list as
> > planned...
> >
> >
> >
> > --emi
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > bdelacretaz@apache.org
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Emilian Bold <
> emilian.bold@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > ...I've introduced the additions policy based on the TomEE
> policy and
> > > > I've explained that we use alphabetical ordering...
> > >
> > > Works for me, thanks!
> > >
> > > > ...If the format and rules look OK I'll send another email (on
> the dev@
> > > > mailing list?) asking for myself to be (re)added on the 'People
> and
> > > > Companies for Hire'...
> > >
> > > I think there's no doubt that your company deserves to be listed
> there
> > ;-)
> > >
> > > -Bertrand
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Richard Lowery <Ri...@guilding.com>.
So, I’m still catching up on emails (ok, I went backwards and read more leading up)…
I suggest that Geertjan is right that the “Have an Offering” notice should go at the top…
I also suggest that the email to the Apache NetBeans (Incubating) PPMC email address link be in the notice, since it doesn’t “sound” clear that dev@ is the same thing.
--
Richard H. Lowery
Guilding IS, LLC
"Guilding IS Crafting Solutions for Individual and Organizational Success "
M: 850.559.9923 | E: Richard.H.Lowery@guilding.com
Linked In: Richard H. Lowery <http://www.linkedin.com/in/richardhlowery>
On 6/12/17, 12:43 PM, "Geertjan Wielenga" <ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
Yes, looks like people are simply adding entries there at the moment.
Not sure if this is what we want -- maybe that notice needs to be at the
top of the page.
I also think that maybe there needs to be a column for a GitHub link or a
link to a page of with evidence of some kind of work that has been done
with, e.g., the NetBeans Platform, though I know that can be difficult in
some cases, e.g., quite a lot of NetBeans Platform work is done behind the
firewall, etc. What's to prevent any random person adding their details to
the page? I guess this is where the process of first writing to the mailing
list would come in handy.
Gj
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 6:12 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> >
> > > ...If the format and rules look OK I'll send another email (on the dev@
> > > mailing list?) asking for myself to be (re)added on the 'People and
> > > Companies for Hire'...
> >
> > I think there's no doubt that your company deserves to be listed there
> ;-)
>
>
> Thanks! The point was to enforce a given process without exceptions. I
> already see two new edits that did not start from the mailing list as
> planned...
>
>
>
> --emi
>
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org
> > wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > ...I've introduced the additions policy based on the TomEE policy and
> > > I've explained that we use alphabetical ordering...
> >
> > Works for me, thanks!
> >
> > > ...If the format and rules look OK I'll send another email (on the dev@
> > > mailing list?) asking for myself to be (re)added on the 'People and
> > > Companies for Hire'...
> >
> > I think there's no doubt that your company deserves to be listed there
> ;-)
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
>
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>.
Yes, looks like people are simply adding entries there at the moment.
Not sure if this is what we want -- maybe that notice needs to be at the
top of the page.
I also think that maybe there needs to be a column for a GitHub link or a
link to a page of with evidence of some kind of work that has been done
with, e.g., the NetBeans Platform, though I know that can be difficult in
some cases, e.g., quite a lot of NetBeans Platform work is done behind the
firewall, etc. What's to prevent any random person adding their details to
the page? I guess this is where the process of first writing to the mailing
list would come in handy.
Gj
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 6:12 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> >
> > > ...If the format and rules look OK I'll send another email (on the dev@
> > > mailing list?) asking for myself to be (re)added on the 'People and
> > > Companies for Hire'...
> >
> > I think there's no doubt that your company deserves to be listed there
> ;-)
>
>
> Thanks! The point was to enforce a given process without exceptions. I
> already see two new edits that did not start from the mailing list as
> planned...
>
>
>
> --emi
>
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org
> > wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > ...I've introduced the additions policy based on the TomEE policy and
> > > I've explained that we use alphabetical ordering...
> >
> > Works for me, thanks!
> >
> > > ...If the format and rules look OK I'll send another email (on the dev@
> > > mailing list?) asking for myself to be (re)added on the 'People and
> > > Companies for Hire'...
> >
> > I think there's no doubt that your company deserves to be listed there
> ;-)
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
>
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>.
>
> > ...If the format and rules look OK I'll send another email (on the dev@
> > mailing list?) asking for myself to be (re)added on the 'People and
> > Companies for Hire'...
>
> I think there's no doubt that your company deserves to be listed there ;-)
Thanks! The point was to enforce a given process without exceptions. I
already see two new edits that did not start from the mailing list as
planned...
--emi
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > ...I've introduced the additions policy based on the TomEE policy and
> > I've explained that we use alphabetical ordering...
>
> Works for me, thanks!
>
> > ...If the format and rules look OK I'll send another email (on the dev@
> > mailing list?) asking for myself to be (re)added on the 'People and
> > Companies for Hire'...
>
> I think there's no doubt that your company deserves to be listed there ;-)
>
> -Bertrand
>
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...I've introduced the additions policy based on the TomEE policy and
> I've explained that we use alphabetical ordering...
Works for me, thanks!
> ...If the format and rules look OK I'll send another email (on the dev@
> mailing list?) asking for myself to be (re)added on the 'People and
> Companies for Hire'...
I think there's no doubt that your company deserves to be listed there ;-)
-Bertrand
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>.
I've introduced the additions policy based on the TomEE policy and
I've explained that we use alphabetical ordering (same as Hadoop and
others).
I've also introduced the TomEE 'process' where offerings must start on
the mailing list and only be added on the page by the PPMC.
I suggest we implicitly accept an offering within a few days unless
there is a negative vote (similar to
https://community.apache.org/committers/lazyConsensus.html#stating-lazy-consensus
). Does this sound good?
If the format and rules look OK I'll send another email (on the dev@
mailing list?) asking for myself to be (re)added on the 'People and
Companies for Hire'.
--emi
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 1:08 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 9:35 AM, Emilian Bold <em...@apache.org> wrote:
>> ...I believe we can leave the wiki open for all initially. The Apache
>> TomEE additions policy[5] seems very common sense and could be used as
>> an inspiration later on:..
>
> With my incubation mentor hat on I suggest having that right from the start.
>
> If you don't, it's difficult to remove inappropriate entries later on,
> and given the NetBeans reach you're likely to get some of those.
>
> IMO you can copy [5] as is, just credit TomEE for it. Maybe add a link
> to https://community.apache.org/projectIndependence.html to explain
> the ASF's view on this.
>
> I would also define the order in which entries are listed
> (chronological? alphabetical?) as once you get to 150 the first few
> tend to have an advantage ;-)
>
> -Bertrand
>
>> ...5. http://tomee.apache.org/add-my-offering.html
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 9:35 AM, Emilian Bold <em...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...I believe we can leave the wiki open for all initially. The Apache
> TomEE additions policy[5] seems very common sense and could be used as
> an inspiration later on:..
With my incubation mentor hat on I suggest having that right from the start.
If you don't, it's difficult to remove inappropriate entries later on,
and given the NetBeans reach you're likely to get some of those.
IMO you can copy [5] as is, just credit TomEE for it. Maybe add a link
to https://community.apache.org/projectIndependence.html to explain
the ASF's view on this.
I would also define the order in which entries are listed
(chronological? alphabetical?) as once you get to 150 the first few
tend to have an advantage ;-)
-Bertrand
> ...5. http://tomee.apache.org/add-my-offering.html
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Zoran Sevarac <se...@gmail.com>.
Wow, this is a great step! I'm very happy to see this happpening
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Geertjan Wielenga <
geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Excellent. Yes -- and I know organizations out there are looking for
> experienced NetBeans Platform developers, companies, and trainers. So, in
> those cases, add your requests in the 2nd table, while the 1st table is for
> all those offering services of some kind. Once we have a few entries, we'll
> promote it more broadly.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gj
>
> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 9:35 AM, Emilian Bold <em...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I have created with Geertjan the commercial support page for Apache
> > NetBeans (Incubating):
> >
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Commercial+Support
> >
> > This is in line with the commercial support pages I've seen on
> > other[1][2][3][4] Apache projects.
> >
> > Please add yourself or your company if you are offering commercial
> > services related to NetBeans.
> >
> > I believe we can leave the wiki open for all initially. The Apache
> > TomEE additions policy[5] seems very common sense and could be used as
> > an inspiration later on:
> >
> > > The [...P]PMC does not and cannot endorse or recommend any products or
> > services.
> > >
> > > All submitted information must be factual and informational in nature
> > and not be a marketing statement. Statements that promote your products
> and
> > services over other offerings on the page will not be tolerated and will
> be
> > removed. Such marketing statements can be added to your own pages on your
> > own site.
> > >
> > > When in doubt, email the [...P]PMC list [...] and ask. We are be happy
> > to help.
> >
> > We could also have a commercial support page on the main website.
> >
> > 1. https://wiki.apache.org/hadoop/Support
> > 2. https://mahout.apache.org/general/professional-support.html
> > 3. https://james.apache.org/support.html
> > 4. http://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> > 5. http://tomee.apache.org/add-my-offering.html
> >
> > --emi
> >
>
--
Dr Zoran Sevarac, Assistant Professor
Department of Software Engineering
University of Belgrade, Faculty of Organisational Sciences,
http://www.fon.rs
Java Champions, member, https://java-champions.java.net/
NetBeans Dream, member, http://wiki.netbeans.org/NetBeansDreamTeam
Homepage: http://www.zoransevarac.com
Re: Commercial Support page
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com>.
Excellent. Yes -- and I know organizations out there are looking for
experienced NetBeans Platform developers, companies, and trainers. So, in
those cases, add your requests in the 2nd table, while the 1st table is for
all those offering services of some kind. Once we have a few entries, we'll
promote it more broadly.
Thanks,
Gj
On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 9:35 AM, Emilian Bold <em...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have created with Geertjan the commercial support page for Apache
> NetBeans (Incubating):
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Commercial+Support
>
> This is in line with the commercial support pages I've seen on
> other[1][2][3][4] Apache projects.
>
> Please add yourself or your company if you are offering commercial
> services related to NetBeans.
>
> I believe we can leave the wiki open for all initially. The Apache
> TomEE additions policy[5] seems very common sense and could be used as
> an inspiration later on:
>
> > The [...P]PMC does not and cannot endorse or recommend any products or
> services.
> >
> > All submitted information must be factual and informational in nature
> and not be a marketing statement. Statements that promote your products and
> services over other offerings on the page will not be tolerated and will be
> removed. Such marketing statements can be added to your own pages on your
> own site.
> >
> > When in doubt, email the [...P]PMC list [...] and ask. We are be happy
> to help.
>
> We could also have a commercial support page on the main website.
>
> 1. https://wiki.apache.org/hadoop/Support
> 2. https://mahout.apache.org/general/professional-support.html
> 3. https://james.apache.org/support.html
> 4. http://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html
> 5. http://tomee.apache.org/add-my-offering.html
>
> --emi
>