Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[drew jensen <dr...@gmail.com>]

Hi,

Recently there has been some discussion on the projects private ML
regarding issues about native language groups and how best to support
work groups which will by definition be somewhat circumscribed from the
whole by virtue of language without losing the cohesion of a single
project focus.

I invite others pick that up here:

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>]

On 20/05/2012 Rob Weir wrote:
> we should start be listing concrete things that specific volunteers want
> to do now.   Over time then we can notice patterns in these requests

One pattern that already emerged is access to Pootle. We've seen 
volunteers show up on this list, request a proper access to Pootle 
(which now seems to be either "anonymous" or "committer", with no 
intermediate steps) and Juergen having to deliver PO files by e-mail to 
overcome this limitation. So, while there are workarounds, this is one 
area where the project could be more inclusive; it would only be a 
matter of allowing non-committers to register to Pootle as we already do 
for the Wiki, so that we can track and evaluate contributions.

Regards,
   Andrea.

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> When will you be specific?
>
> Are you concerned about the iCLA?
>
> That doesn't stop most people from helping on ooo-users or other lists.  It is not a condition for contributing to the Forums.  It is not a condition for submitting bug reports.  It is a condition for submitting work that is extensive enough to constitute intellectual property.
>
> For what specific purpose do you find an iCLA is required (or election as a committer, beyond that) that is objectionable to you?
>
> I don't think the iCLA matters to most people in the community that you are interested in and it will not arise as a requirement.
>
> Wanting root access to a server in the Apache Infrastructure is a different story.
>
> Please do not over-generalize.
>
> Until you make specific, actionable requests, there is going to be no constructive movement here.
>

+1 .   I think that is the key thing.  Instead of abstract discussions
about unnamed volunteers and the unstated things they want to do, we
should start be listing concrete things that specific volunteers want
to do now.   Over time then we can notice patterns in these requests
and take additional steps to streamline processes where needed.

I never claimed the project was perfect.  We all know that.  My only
point is that we should deal with specific concrete issues before we
try to solve generalities.


>  - Dennis
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paulo de Souza Lima [mailto:paulo.s.lima@varekai.org]
> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 13:29
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams
>
> [ ... ]
>
> Just to be clear:
>
> Do you need to fill a form when you decide to help a friend or someone
> unknown? Most of people don't think they need. So, some of us will submit
> their requests for contributors. Some will not. But they will continue
> spread the " cause" and supporting enthusiastically AOO. They will need
> support and acceptance.
>
> [ ... ]
>

RE: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>]

Thank you.

I see that this is about a past experience with another project.  I have nothing to say about that.

I think Rob is correct that the Apache OpenOffice project must deal with specific situations that the project can influence. 

 - Dennis





-----Original Message-----
From: Paulo de Souza Lima [mailto:paulo.s.lima@varekai.org] 
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 15:01
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; dennis.hamilton@acm.org
Subject: Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

2012/5/20 Dennis E. Hamilton <de...@acm.org>


	Please Paolo,
	
	What does this refer to:
	

	  "Do you need to fill a form when you decide to help a friend
	   or someone unknown? Most of people don't think they need.
	   So, some of us will submit their requests for contributors.
	   Some will not."
	
	
	I have no idea how this relates to the Apache OpenOffice project and those communities that adopt, share and advocate use of the software.
	



Ok. Let me try to explain again. Maybe the language barrier could be making me diffiicult to do that.

1- When OpenOffice.org were living, we had a great and promising community in Brazil.
2 - In that time, we had not to fill any kind of form to contribute and to be accepted as a contributor. Everyone was watching what we were doing and that was enough.
3 - I don't know if you are aware about what has happened to brOffice.org NGO. 
[ ... ]
7 - Some of us are not intending to fill a form in order to became a "contributor". They don't think it's necessary, and I don't think either. despite of that they continue to do a great job marketing AOO, without your knowledge. You don't know them, but we, brazilians, certainly do.
[ ... ]

And Rob... There's no "abstract vollunteers" up here. There are vollunteers you don't know and who are doing a great job, despite the fact you don't know them.


 

	 - Dennis
	


Regards.
 
-- 

Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com <http://almalivre.wordpress.com/> 
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Paulo de Souza Lima <pa...@varekai.org>]

Well I think this issue is quite clear for me, and I feel able to showm how
things work for those who wants to help, here in Brazil.

Thank you very much for your help.

2012/5/20 Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>

> On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 6:00 PM, Paulo de Souza Lima
> <pa...@varekai.org> wrote:
> > 2012/5/20 Dennis E. Hamilton <de...@acm.org>
> >
> >> Please Paolo,
> >>
> >> What does this refer to:
> >>
> >>   "Do you need to fill a form when you decide to help a friend
> >>    or someone unknown? Most of people don't think they need.
> >>    So, some of us will submit their requests for contributors.
> >>    Some will not."
> >>
> >> I have no idea how this relates to the Apache OpenOffice project and
> those
> >> communities that adopt, share and advocate use of the software.
> >>
> >>
> > Ok. Let me try to explain again. Maybe the language barrier could be
> making
> > me diffiicult to do that.
> >
> > 1- When OpenOffice.org were living, we had a great and promising
> community
> > in Brazil.
> > 2 - In that time, we had not to fill any kind of form to contribute and
> to
> > be accepted as a contributor. Everyone was watching what we were doing
> and
> > that was enough.
> > 3 - I don't know if you are aware about what has happened to brOffice.org
> > NGO. It's a long and disgusting story I could tell you in another
> > opportunity. But that divided our community in those who had commercial
> > interests in brazilian market and those who contributed freely and had
> > their work stolen, when TDF was formed.
> > 4 - Suddenly, TDF was requesting that every person who wanted to be
> called
> > a "contributor" should fill a agreement request in order to be
> > "recognized". So we became to be concerned about that huge amount of
> people
> > who contributed and didn't want to fill a formal agreement to a foreign
> > organization that don't speak their language and has a lot of "channels",
> > many of them obscured.
> > 5 - In addition, people who we were fighting bacame key persons in TDF.
> One
> > of them became a "brazilian" member of the BoD, with 70 votes, when
> > brazilian accepted members in Brazil were less than 15 and most of them
> > didn't vote for him.
> > 6 - Facing all those issues, many of us got out. Some have gone to take
> > care of their own lives. Some were seeking some other project to
> contribute
> > for. We are the remains of those who were seeking a project to contribute
> > for.
> > 7 - Some of us are not intending to fill a form in order to became a
> > "contributor". They don't think it's necessary, and I don't think either.
> > despite of that they continue to do a great job marketing AOO, without
> your
> > knowledge. You don't know them, but we, brazilians, certainly do.
> > 8 - This discussion was already made in TDF mailing lists, without
> success
> > for us.
> > 9 - I don't want to bring a polemic issue like that here, because I know
> > you would ask more and more about it, and some answers cannot be exactly
> > what you want to see.
> > 10 - I am tired of discussing this issue. I had a wearing discussion with
> > TDF BoD once and, if brazilian people don't want to speak for themselves,
> > I'll be quiet also, because I am telling you what is/was happening, but I
> > am not a spokesman for anyone.
> >
> > And Rob... There's no "abstract vollunteers" up here. There are
> vollunteers
> > you don't know and who are doing a great job, despite the fact you don't
> > know them.
> >
>
> The issues are abstract until you say person X wants to do Y and
> cannot do it because of Z.
>
> Fill in X, Y and Z and then we have a problem we can solve.
>
> Something else to note:  There are different levels of participation
> for volunteers in an Apache project.  One can be a
> contributor/developers without signing the ICLA and without doing any
> other paper work.  A contributor can participate in any of our mailing
> lists, sign up for a wiki account (on MWiki and Confluence) can create
> a Bugzilla account, can enter translations in Pootle, can even fix
> bugs and submit patches.  So there is a lot that they can do without
> signing the ICLA.
>
> However, to get direct commit access to the source repository, used
> for the source code and the website, you need to be voted in as a
> Committer and sign the ICLA.  There are a few other permissions that
> we only give to Committers, like login rights for Pootle, admin access
> to servers, etc.
>
> So there should not a lot of bureaucracy needed for volunteers to be
> active with the project.  But if I am wrong (and I might be) then the
> best way to argue that point is with a specific example.
>
> -Rob
>
> >
> >
> >
> >>  - Dennis
> >>
> >
> > Regards.
> >
> > --
> > Paulo de Souza Lima
> > http://almalivre.wordpress.com
> > Curitiba - PR
> > Linux User #432358
> > Ubuntu User #28729
>



-- 
Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 6:00 PM, Paulo de Souza Lima
<pa...@varekai.org> wrote:
> 2012/5/20 Dennis E. Hamilton <de...@acm.org>
>
>> Please Paolo,
>>
>> What does this refer to:
>>
>>   "Do you need to fill a form when you decide to help a friend
>>    or someone unknown? Most of people don't think they need.
>>    So, some of us will submit their requests for contributors.
>>    Some will not."
>>
>> I have no idea how this relates to the Apache OpenOffice project and those
>> communities that adopt, share and advocate use of the software.
>>
>>
> Ok. Let me try to explain again. Maybe the language barrier could be making
> me diffiicult to do that.
>
> 1- When OpenOffice.org were living, we had a great and promising community
> in Brazil.
> 2 - In that time, we had not to fill any kind of form to contribute and to
> be accepted as a contributor. Everyone was watching what we were doing and
> that was enough.
> 3 - I don't know if you are aware about what has happened to brOffice.org
> NGO. It's a long and disgusting story I could tell you in another
> opportunity. But that divided our community in those who had commercial
> interests in brazilian market and those who contributed freely and had
> their work stolen, when TDF was formed.
> 4 - Suddenly, TDF was requesting that every person who wanted to be called
> a "contributor" should fill a agreement request in order to be
> "recognized". So we became to be concerned about that huge amount of people
> who contributed and didn't want to fill a formal agreement to a foreign
> organization that don't speak their language and has a lot of "channels",
> many of them obscured.
> 5 - In addition, people who we were fighting bacame key persons in TDF. One
> of them became a "brazilian" member of the BoD, with 70 votes, when
> brazilian accepted members in Brazil were less than 15 and most of them
> didn't vote for him.
> 6 - Facing all those issues, many of us got out. Some have gone to take
> care of their own lives. Some were seeking some other project to contribute
> for. We are the remains of those who were seeking a project to contribute
> for.
> 7 - Some of us are not intending to fill a form in order to became a
> "contributor". They don't think it's necessary, and I don't think either.
> despite of that they continue to do a great job marketing AOO, without your
> knowledge. You don't know them, but we, brazilians, certainly do.
> 8 - This discussion was already made in TDF mailing lists, without success
> for us.
> 9 - I don't want to bring a polemic issue like that here, because I know
> you would ask more and more about it, and some answers cannot be exactly
> what you want to see.
> 10 - I am tired of discussing this issue. I had a wearing discussion with
> TDF BoD once and, if brazilian people don't want to speak for themselves,
> I'll be quiet also, because I am telling you what is/was happening, but I
> am not a spokesman for anyone.
>
> And Rob... There's no "abstract vollunteers" up here. There are vollunteers
> you don't know and who are doing a great job, despite the fact you don't
> know them.
>

The issues are abstract until you say person X wants to do Y and
cannot do it because of Z.

Fill in X, Y and Z and then we have a problem we can solve.

Something else to note:  There are different levels of participation
for volunteers in an Apache project.  One can be a
contributor/developers without signing the ICLA and without doing any
other paper work.  A contributor can participate in any of our mailing
lists, sign up for a wiki account (on MWiki and Confluence) can create
a Bugzilla account, can enter translations in Pootle, can even fix
bugs and submit patches.  So there is a lot that they can do without
signing the ICLA.

However, to get direct commit access to the source repository, used
for the source code and the website, you need to be voted in as a
Committer and sign the ICLA.  There are a few other permissions that
we only give to Committers, like login rights for Pootle, admin access
to servers, etc.

So there should not a lot of bureaucracy needed for volunteers to be
active with the project.  But if I am wrong (and I might be) then the
best way to argue that point is with a specific example.

-Rob

>
>
>
>>  - Dennis
>>
>
> Regards.
>
> --
> Paulo de Souza Lima
> http://almalivre.wordpress.com
> Curitiba - PR
> Linux User #432358
> Ubuntu User #28729

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Paulo de Souza Lima <pa...@varekai.org>]

2012/5/20 Dennis E. Hamilton <de...@acm.org>

> Please Paolo,
>
> What does this refer to:
>
>   "Do you need to fill a form when you decide to help a friend
>    or someone unknown? Most of people don't think they need.
>    So, some of us will submit their requests for contributors.
>    Some will not."
>
> I have no idea how this relates to the Apache OpenOffice project and those
> communities that adopt, share and advocate use of the software.
>
>
Ok. Let me try to explain again. Maybe the language barrier could be making
me diffiicult to do that.

1- When OpenOffice.org were living, we had a great and promising community
in Brazil.
2 - In that time, we had not to fill any kind of form to contribute and to
be accepted as a contributor. Everyone was watching what we were doing and
that was enough.
3 - I don't know if you are aware about what has happened to brOffice.org
NGO. It's a long and disgusting story I could tell you in another
opportunity. But that divided our community in those who had commercial
interests in brazilian market and those who contributed freely and had
their work stolen, when TDF was formed.
4 - Suddenly, TDF was requesting that every person who wanted to be called
a "contributor" should fill a agreement request in order to be
"recognized". So we became to be concerned about that huge amount of people
who contributed and didn't want to fill a formal agreement to a foreign
organization that don't speak their language and has a lot of "channels",
many of them obscured.
5 - In addition, people who we were fighting bacame key persons in TDF. One
of them became a "brazilian" member of the BoD, with 70 votes, when
brazilian accepted members in Brazil were less than 15 and most of them
didn't vote for him.
6 - Facing all those issues, many of us got out. Some have gone to take
care of their own lives. Some were seeking some other project to contribute
for. We are the remains of those who were seeking a project to contribute
for.
7 - Some of us are not intending to fill a form in order to became a
"contributor". They don't think it's necessary, and I don't think either.
despite of that they continue to do a great job marketing AOO, without your
knowledge. You don't know them, but we, brazilians, certainly do.
8 - This discussion was already made in TDF mailing lists, without success
for us.
9 - I don't want to bring a polemic issue like that here, because I know
you would ask more and more about it, and some answers cannot be exactly
what you want to see.
10 - I am tired of discussing this issue. I had a wearing discussion with
TDF BoD once and, if brazilian people don't want to speak for themselves,
I'll be quiet also, because I am telling you what is/was happening, but I
am not a spokesman for anyone.

And Rob... There's no "abstract vollunteers" up here. There are vollunteers
you don't know and who are doing a great job, despite the fact you don't
know them.




>  - Dennis
>

Regards.

-- 
Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

RE: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>]

Please Paolo,

What does this refer to: 

   "Do you need to fill a form when you decide to help a friend 
    or someone unknown? Most of people don't think they need. 
    So, some of us will submit their requests for contributors. 
    Some will not." 

I have no idea how this relates to the Apache OpenOffice project and those communities that adopt, share and advocate use of the software.

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Paulo de Souza Lima [mailto:paulo.s.lima@varekai.org] 
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 14:15
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; dennis.hamilton@acm.org
Subject: Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

2012/5/20 Dennis E. Hamilton <de...@acm.org>

> When will you be specific?
>

When you give me time to write a proper reply


[ ... ]

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Paulo de Souza Lima <pa...@varekai.org>]

2012/5/20 Dennis E. Hamilton <de...@acm.org>

> When will you be specific?
>

When you give me time to write a proper reply


>
> Are you concerned about the iCLA?
>

No I am not.


>
> That doesn't stop most people from helping on ooo-users or other lists.
>  It is not a condition for contributing to the Forums.  It is not a
> condition for submitting bug reports.  It is a condition for submitting
> work that is extensive enough to constitute intellectual property.
>
> For what specific purpose do you find an iCLA is required (or election as
> a committer, beyond that) that is objectionable to you?
>

No it isn't.


>
> I don't think the iCLA matters to most people in the community that you
> are interested in and it will not arise as a requirement.
>

What you think cannot be the real thing, Think about it.


>
> Wanting root access to a server in the Apache Infrastructure is a
> different story.
>

Who said I want it? You're mistaken.


>
> Please do not over-generalize.
>

I am not. You seems to be a lot precipitated.


>
> Until you make specific, actionable requests, there is going to be no
> constructive movement here.
>

Don't worry. I am not interested in more discussions like that.


>
>  - Dennis
>
>
Have a nice day. (or night, or wharever)
-- 
Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

RE: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>]

When will you be specific?

Are you concerned about the iCLA?  

That doesn't stop most people from helping on ooo-users or other lists.  It is not a condition for contributing to the Forums.  It is not a condition for submitting bug reports.  It is a condition for submitting work that is extensive enough to constitute intellectual property.  

For what specific purpose do you find an iCLA is required (or election as a committer, beyond that) that is objectionable to you?  

I don't think the iCLA matters to most people in the community that you are interested in and it will not arise as a requirement.

Wanting root access to a server in the Apache Infrastructure is a different story.

Please do not over-generalize.

Until you make specific, actionable requests, there is going to be no constructive movement here.

 - Dennis


-----Original Message-----
From: Paulo de Souza Lima [mailto:paulo.s.lima@varekai.org] 
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 13:29
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[ ... ]

Just to be clear:

Do you need to fill a form when you decide to help a friend or someone
unknown? Most of people don't think they need. So, some of us will submit
their requests for contributors. Some will not. But they will continue
spread the " cause" and supporting enthusiastically AOO. They will need
support and acceptance.

[ ... ]

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Paulo de Souza Lima <pa...@varekai.org>]

2012/5/20 Dennis E. Hamilton <de...@acm.org>

> The extend of "bureacratic issues" will depend on the extent of support
> and acceptance you require.
>
> Without specific requests, there is no way of knowing what conditions the
> ASF and the Apache OpenOffice project might set.
>
> What do you require that constitutes "acceptance"?
>
> What do you require that is essential as "support"?
>
> With regard to mailing lists, there is a fairly simply process to create
> one.  @incubator.apache.org already has ooo-general-es, ooo-general-ja,
> ooo-progetto-it, ooo-users-de, ooo-users-fr, and ooo-utenti-it.
>  Contributors who arranged to set up and support those lists can answer
> your questions here on ooo-dev.  You can also communicate with -owner of
> those lists (e.g., ooo-utenti-it-owner @incubator.apache.org).  See this:
> <http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/native-lang.html>.
>
> There is no PT or PT-BR (can they not be combined?) on the Apache
> OpenOffice Community Forums.  There are ways to accomplish that as well.  I
> don't know if that would be helpful to your community or not: <
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/>.  Operators of the community forums
> are also found here on ooo-dev.
>

Hi8 Dennis

Just to be clear:

Do you need to fill a form when you decide to help a friend or someone
unknown? Most of people don't think they need. So, some of us will submit
their requests for contributors. Some will not. But they will continue
spread the " cause" and supporting enthusiastically AOO. They will need
support and acceptance.

This is one of the the subjective things Apache Foundation will need to
deal when working with a very popular software like AOO: The boundaries
exceed the technical environment. There's a whole and huge new world out
there.


>  - Dennis
>
>
Regards

-- 
Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

RE: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>]

The extend of "bureacratic issues" will depend on the extent of support and acceptance you require.

Without specific requests, there is no way of knowing what conditions the ASF and the Apache OpenOffice project might set.

What do you require that constitutes "acceptance"?

What do you require that is essential as "support"?

With regard to mailing lists, there is a fairly simply process to create one.  @incubator.apache.org already has ooo-general-es, ooo-general-ja, ooo-progetto-it, ooo-users-de, ooo-users-fr, and ooo-utenti-it.  Contributors who arranged to set up and support those lists can answer your questions here on ooo-dev.  You can also communicate with -owner of those lists (e.g., ooo-utenti-it-owner @incubator.apache.org).  See this: <http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/native-lang.html>.

There is no PT or PT-BR (can they not be combined?) on the Apache OpenOffice Community Forums.  There are ways to accomplish that as well.  I don't know if that would be helpful to your community or not: <http://user.services.openoffice.org/>.  Operators of the community forums are also found here on ooo-dev.

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Paulo de Souza Lima [mailto:paulo.s.lima@varekai.org] 
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 11:58
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[ ... ]
 It would be good if we had a pt-br mailing list,
but we are using a mailing list from Escritorio Livre Community. The most
important for people up here,maybe, would have support and acceptance from
AOO without many "bureaucractic issues". We are proud to help and we help
for fun, without political or economic interests.

I think this could lead to a polemic discussion and I don't wish to be
polemic. Sorry.


[ ... ]

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Paulo de Souza Lima <pa...@varekai.org>]

2012/5/20 Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>

> On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 2:57 PM, Paulo de Souza Lima
>
>
>
<snip>

> So I've seen two requests so far:
>
> 1) Create of a br-pt mailing list.  I think this was approved, yes?
>

Yes. Thank you.


>
> 2) Request for admin access to MWiki.   I don't think this has been
> resolved yet.
>

I think I was misundestood. I am *vollunteer* to perform wiki admin issues
if no one else is skilled enough to do that. I am not requesting an admin
access, unless you think this is the way and wish to agree to my
suggestions.


>
> You are already doing great things with the Twitter and other social
> media accounts.  This is great.
>

Thanks


>
> Was there anything else that the Brazilian volunteers need
> immediately?    What other kinds of "bureaucratic issues" are you
> running into?
>
>
We'll keep you informed when issues raise.

Thanks.


>  -Rob
>
>
-- 
Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 2:57 PM, Paulo de Souza Lima
<pa...@varekai.org> wrote:
> 2012/5/20 Wolf Halton <wo...@gmail.com>
>
>> On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Paulo de Souza Lima <
>> paulo.s.lima@varekai.org> wrote:
>>
>> > 2012/5/20 Paolo Pozzan <pa...@z2z.it>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Reading to all other messages in this thread, I think many missed the
>> > > point.
>> > > The problem is not about what language to use, but how to manage the
>> > > to-be-volunteers which don't or wouldn't have the same skills as ours.
>> > > Volunteers are a big marketing weapon; is like happy workers that
>> freely
>> > > advertise the company they work for. OTOH rejected volunteers (even for
>> > > difficulty of access - e.g. language) will feel the final product less
>> > > theirs, so they will be less willing to marketing that.
>> > >
>> > > Like many "opposers" of AOO Project (incubating) (get it? ;-) say, the
>> > > Apache Software Foundation has a long history of successful software
>> for
>> > > skilled technical users. I bet that the average OpenOffice user don't
>> > even
>> > > know what a programming language exactly is, so I think this is a new
>> > > exciting challenge for the Apache folks.
>> > >
>> > > What I understood in my experience with italian volunteers is that
>> people
>> > > love to contribute in a hassle-free maneer, this means that someone
>> else
>> > > have to show them the way, letting them just do. I know this may sound
>> > > disappointing, but it is not a limit of freedom if someone choose by
>> > > his/her own to follow some rules.
>> > >
>> > > I think that it would be useful to write some basic guidelines for the
>> > > native language teams to know what to do and what not. Letting them
>> know
>> > it
>> > > would eventually lead to the birth of local communities, where "basic"
>> > > contributors will eventually will go there.
>> > > Maybe many of us have still in mind the old OpenOffice.org structure,
>> > > which worked fine for the language teams and to which we can consider
>> > > copying from.
>> > >
>> > > Paolo
>> > >
>> >
>> > That's exactly what is happening to brazilian community. The most of us
>> > have not technical skills. But we are AOO users and we have influence to
>> > convince many people and organizations to give a chance on AOO. And we
>> are
>> > being striked a lot because of that, but we are standing still.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Paulo de Souza Lima
>> > http://almalivre.wordpress.com
>> > Curitiba - PR
>> > Linux User #432358
>> > Ubuntu User #28729
>> >
>>
>> Paulo,
>> I am not sure I understand either.  What is missing that would make it
>> easier for you to do what you want to accomplish?
>>
>
> Hi Wolf.
>
> Nothing at all, actually. It would be good if we had a pt-br mailing list,
> but we are using a mailing list from Escritorio Livre Community. The most
> important for people up here,maybe, would have support and acceptance from
> AOO without many "bureaucractic issues". We are proud to help and we help
> for fun, without political or economic interests.
>

So I've seen two requests so far:

1) Create of a br-pt mailing list.  I think this was approved, yes?

2) Request for admin access to MWiki.   I don't think this has been
resolved yet.

You are already doing great things with the Twitter and other social
media accounts.  This is great.

Was there anything else that the Brazilian volunteers need
immediately?    What other kinds of "bureaucratic issues" are you
running into?

-Rob

> I think this could lead to a polemic discussion and I don't wish to be
> polemic. Sorry.
>
>
>>
>> Wolf
>>
>>
> Regards.
> --
> Paulo de Souza Lima
> http://almalivre.wordpress.com
> Curitiba - PR
> Linux User #432358
> Ubuntu User #28729

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Paulo de Souza Lima <pa...@varekai.org>]

2012/5/20 Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>

> On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 7:51 PM, Paulo de Souza Lima
> <pa...@varekai.org> wrote:
>
<snip>

> >>
> >
> > Me, Claudio, Albino, Raul and Kayo are already doing that. We don't want
> to
> > play the " proxy" role, so we don't have any private lists. All we
> discuss
> > in Brazil is in a public list. So you can also have access to the
> content,
> > using, perhaps, Google Translate.
> >
> >
> >>
> >>  Another possibility is a variety of badges or such for helping out on
> the
> >> NL lists and/or being liaisons .  The NL groups sound like users groups
> to
> >> me, at least historically, so maybe that is a model that should be
> >> considered.
> >>
> >
> > In September there will be 2 large FLOSS events in the same week in
> Brazil.
> > FISL12 and FTSL. People will be there and we want to talk about AOO. Can
> we
> > do that? Of course we are not ASF representatives, but may we talk about
> > the project? Ask for people to join us? Is there some way we can identify
> > ourselves to the project?
> >
>
> +1
>
> For example, I have give such presentations before.  I just say that I
> am, "Rob Weir, a Committer on the Apache OpenOffice project".  I think
> several of us have done this as well.
>
> If someone is not a Committer yet, they could identify themselves a
> "Contributor" or "Developer" or "Translator" or "Volunteer" or
> something like that.
>

That's it ! =)


>
> Taking about the project is fine.  Calling for new volunteers is good
> as well.  These are important conferences.  I've heard great things,
> in particular, about FISL.  So it would be great to have a presence
> there.
>

Claudio and Albino will be there. Unfortunately I can't. =(

>
> I know there was talk, on another thread, of a standard presentation
> template for the project.  Maybe we could have some standard overview
> slides for the project, that could be translated and occasionally
> updated?  That would allow any volunteer to give a presentation to a
> local conference, large or small.
>
>
Claudio submitted some material and will make AOO presence there.


>  -Rob
>
>
-- 
Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 7:51 PM, Paulo de Souza Lima
<pa...@varekai.org> wrote:
> 2012/5/20 win <wm...@gmail.com>
>
>> On 05/20/2012 04:11 PM, Paulo de Souza Lima wrote:
>>
>>> The fact is: there's a lot of people helping AOO and you don't really know
>>> them. And they don't want to fill a form to officially help AOO or Apache
>>> Foundation. But it would be good to see they are recognized as "helpers",
>>> or "contributors", or whatever, some way.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Perhaps those that can use both the NL and English can be liaisons between
>> the the NL community and the community here.  They could help NL users by
>> either assisting with posting here if a subject needs to be brought up
>> here.  As well they could keep local users informed of what is happening in
>> this community.
>>
>
> Me, Claudio, Albino, Raul and Kayo are already doing that. We don't want to
> play the " proxy" role, so we don't have any private lists. All we discuss
> in Brazil is in a public list. So you can also have access to the content,
> using, perhaps, Google Translate.
>
>
>>
>>  Another possibility is a variety of badges or such for helping out on the
>> NL lists and/or being liaisons .  The NL groups sound like users groups to
>> me, at least historically, so maybe that is a model that should be
>> considered.
>>
>
> In September there will be 2 large FLOSS events in the same week in Brazil.
> FISL12 and FTSL. People will be there and we want to talk about AOO. Can we
> do that? Of course we are not ASF representatives, but may we talk about
> the project? Ask for people to join us? Is there some way we can identify
> ourselves to the project?
>

+1

For example, I have give such presentations before.  I just say that I
am, "Rob Weir, a Committer on the Apache OpenOffice project".  I think
several of us have done this as well.

If someone is not a Committer yet, they could identify themselves a
"Contributor" or "Developer" or "Translator" or "Volunteer" or
something like that.

Taking about the project is fine.  Calling for new volunteers is good
as well.  These are important conferences.  I've heard great things,
in particular, about FISL.  So it would be great to have a presence
there.

I know there was talk, on another thread, of a standard presentation
template for the project.  Maybe we could have some standard overview
slides for the project, that could be translated and occasionally
updated?  That would allow any volunteer to give a presentation to a
local conference, large or small.

-Rob

>
>>
>> On a side note, even English users that just want to help are intimidated
>> by many of the same things the NL users are apparently. After months of
>> reading this list, I am just learning how to post here, since I haven't
>> used an email list in ages.  I don't code, or do html/css.  I'll do what I
>> can though, and hope it helps.
>>
>
> =) Welcome to the club!
>
> --
> Paulo de Souza Lima
> http://almalivre.wordpress.com
> Curitiba - PR
> Linux User #432358
> Ubuntu User #28729

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Paulo de Souza Lima <pa...@varekai.org>]

2012/5/20 win <wm...@gmail.com>

> On 05/20/2012 04:11 PM, Paulo de Souza Lima wrote:
>
>> The fact is: there's a lot of people helping AOO and you don't really know
>> them. And they don't want to fill a form to officially help AOO or Apache
>> Foundation. But it would be good to see they are recognized as "helpers",
>> or "contributors", or whatever, some way.
>>
>
>
>
> Perhaps those that can use both the NL and English can be liaisons between
> the the NL community and the community here.  They could help NL users by
> either assisting with posting here if a subject needs to be brought up
> here.  As well they could keep local users informed of what is happening in
> this community.
>

Me, Claudio, Albino, Raul and Kayo are already doing that. We don't want to
play the " proxy" role, so we don't have any private lists. All we discuss
in Brazil is in a public list. So you can also have access to the content,
using, perhaps, Google Translate.


>
>  Another possibility is a variety of badges or such for helping out on the
> NL lists and/or being liaisons .  The NL groups sound like users groups to
> me, at least historically, so maybe that is a model that should be
> considered.
>

In September there will be 2 large FLOSS events in the same week in Brazil.
FISL12 and FTSL. People will be there and we want to talk about AOO. Can we
do that? Of course we are not ASF representatives, but may we talk about
the project? Ask for people to join us? Is there some way we can identify
ourselves to the project?


>
> On a side note, even English users that just want to help are intimidated
> by many of the same things the NL users are apparently. After months of
> reading this list, I am just learning how to post here, since I haven't
> used an email list in ages.  I don't code, or do html/css.  I'll do what I
> can though, and hope it helps.
>

=) Welcome to the club!

-- 
Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[win <wm...@gmail.com>]

On 05/20/2012 04:11 PM, Paulo de Souza Lima wrote:
> The fact is: there's a lot of people helping AOO and you don't really know
> them. And they don't want to fill a form to officially help AOO or Apache
> Foundation. But it would be good to see they are recognized as "helpers",
> or "contributors", or whatever, some way.



Perhaps those that can use both the NL and English can be liaisons 
between the the NL community and the community here.  They could help NL 
users by either assisting with posting here if a subject needs to be 
brought up here.  As well they could keep local users informed of what 
is happening in this community.

  Another possibility is a variety of badges or such for helping out on 
the NL lists and/or being liaisons .  The NL groups sound like users 
groups to me, at least historically, so maybe that is a model that 
should be considered.

On a side note, even English users that just want to help are 
intimidated by many of the same things the NL users are apparently. 
After months of reading this list, I am just learning how to post here, 
since I haven't used an email list in ages.  I don't code, or do 
html/css.  I'll do what I can though, and hope it helps.

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org>]

Hello guys.. very interesting discussion.

I am new to OpenOffice.org and indeed new to Apache and I
am basically the result of both organizations coming together.

On 05/20/12 16:11, Paulo de Souza Lima wrote:
> ...
> Keep in mind the following: OpenOffice.org community has passed through a
> traumatic phase. For BrOffice this phase was much more traumatic, because
> we had many fightings for power. And we are tired of fighting. Contributing
> to Free Software should be for fun for most of us.Suddenly we were involved
> in a war in against some people. I really don't want to relive that
> situation and we decided to get away from LibreOffice and TDF because those
> people we were fighting against became key persons in TDF. We got out and
> founded Escritorio Livre Community. We were seeking some projects to help,
> like Caligra, and others, but when OpenOffice came out from the ashes, we
> thought we could help a lot on it. So, some of us decided to submit their
> agreements to Apache Foundation.

In general I don't follow the LO lists, but it would seem you are not
the only community having a similar situation. I see that there were/are
huge economical interests behind OOo, LO and to certain extent AOO.

The Apache License *is* commercial friendly and that's something we
are not ashamed of. The Apache Foundation has been under attack
since day one for taking this project and, all in all, in that in-fighting
between the different commercial interests, the Apache Foundation
is neutral and will likely continue to be so.

This said, the ASF is not really used to have a project of this type:
many, many users and most of them non-technical but very
enthusiastic. The Apache structures and resources were meant
for another type of modus operandi: more like a technocracy, less
as a user community, and evidently the PPMC has tried hard to
adapt to this new situation but we do need help from people like
you to do a better job.

I do agree we should have native language mailing lists when there
is demand for one. I think everyone is aware that speaking about
development in non-english or local marketing campaigns is something
that will happen in small circles or in companies and for transparency it
would be better for the ASF to have that exchange happen in a public
list and not in private. This said, we don't want to generate many low
traffic lists.

I think you already know how to create a local list: there are processes
and we have to live with them: discussion, call for consensus/vote
then have someone from the PPMC open a JIRA issue. Be patient and
understand it is a process for us too :).





> But the most important is: we want to help AOO (and we can do a lot of
> noise in Brazil) for fun. We don't want to be involved again in economic or
> political issues like we were in TDF/LibreOffice. We are the only brazilian
> community who openly declared support to AOO, who are spreading news,
> presenting lectures and talking about AOO. And who are helping people to
> use AOO. You can see that when we post threads about people like Rogério,
> who is willing to instal AOO 3,4 in thousands of  computer in a digital
> inclusion government project
>
> Today, we are under attack from those people that think TDF and AOO must
> fight till death and have commercial interests in brazilian market. Of
> couse you don't know that, because you don't use to read brazilian FLOSS
> news, despite the fact that Brazil is a huge market for open source office
> suites.
>
> The fact is: there's a lot of people helping AOO and you don't really know
> them. And they don't want to fill a form to officially help AOO or Apache
> Foundation. But it would be good to see they are recognized as "helpers",
> or "contributors", or whatever, some way.

As some have pointed out already the iCLA is not required to
contribute unless you want to become a committer, and most
people don't need it. We can't offer Apache addresses or special
titles but you can use our Wikis for your groups and
with some assistance from a committer (I know I have voted for
brazilians ;) ) you can also add links from the AOO Br website.

Money is another issue; we really don't want to get into the
obscure territory other projects are and we have rules about
the few things we may spend money on (ApacheCon Brazil?),
hopefully you will manage to make your group sustainable
through local activities: one thing is to be a volunteer but to
additionally *have* to finance it is not really fair ;). We also
have no problem with other methods that the previous
license didn't permit: feel free to make your own added value
distribution without redistributing sources (do be careful
with the trademarks of course).

Pedro.

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Paulo de Souza Lima <pa...@varekai.org>]

2012/5/20 Paolo Pozzan <pa...@z2z.it>

> Il 20/05/2012 20:57, Paulo de Souza Lima ha scritto:

<snip>


> Paulo,
>>> I am not sure I understand either.  What is missing that would make it
>>> easier for you to do what you want to accomplish?
>>>
>>
> Maybe is about what must be missed. Asking a volunteer to subscribe to a
> mailing list with hundreds of messages in a month can be very frustrating
> and also annoying.
>
>
>  Hi Wolf.
>>
>> Nothing at all, actually. It would be good if we had a pt-br mailing list,
>> but we are using a mailing list from Escritorio Livre Community. The most
>> important for people up here,maybe, would have support and acceptance from
>> AOO without many "bureaucractic issues". We are proud to help and we help
>> for fun, without political or economic interests.
>>
>> I think this could lead to a polemic discussion and I don't wish to be
>> polemic. Sorry.
>>
>
> Paulo, as long as you are looking for a way to get better processes you
> cannot lead to polemic discussions. Let's find a solution togheter.
>
> Paolo
>

Keep in mind the following: OpenOffice.org community has passed through a
traumatic phase. For BrOffice this phase was much more traumatic, because
we had many fightings for power. And we are tired of fighting. Contributing
to Free Software should be for fun for most of us.Suddenly we were involved
in a war in against some people. I really don't want to relive that
situation and we decided to get away from LibreOffice and TDF because those
people we were fighting against became key persons in TDF. We got out and
founded Escritorio Livre Community. We were seeking some projects to help,
like Caligra, and others, but when OpenOffice came out from the ashes, we
thought we could help a lot on it. So, some of us decided to submit their
agreements to Apache Foundation.

But the most important is: we want to help AOO (and we can do a lot of
noise in Brazil) for fun. We don't want to be involved again in economic or
political issues like we were in TDF/LibreOffice. We are the only brazilian
community who openly declared support to AOO, who are spreading news,
presenting lectures and talking about AOO. And who are helping people to
use AOO. You can see that when we post threads about people like Rogério,
who is willing to instal AOO 3,4 in thousands of  computer in a digital
inclusion government project

Today, we are under attack from those people that think TDF and AOO must
fight till death and have commercial interests in brazilian market. Of
couse you don't know that, because you don't use to read brazilian FLOSS
news, despite the fact that Brazil is a huge market for open source office
suites.

The fact is: there's a lot of people helping AOO and you don't really know
them. And they don't want to fill a form to officially help AOO or Apache
Foundation. But it would be good to see they are recognized as "helpers",
or "contributors", or whatever, some way.

I know it's polemic, I already had a wearing discussion about this issue in
LibO marketing mailing lists, and I don't want to do that again here.
Claudio, Albino and Drew Jensen could give you tips of what happened, if
they want. Anyway, that discussion is public in TDF marketing list (but the
discussions we had in private lists)

Regards.

-- 
Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Paolo Pozzan <pa...@z2z.it>]

Il 20/05/2012 20:57, Paulo de Souza Lima ha scritto:
> 2012/5/20 Wolf Halton<wo...@gmail.com>
>
>> On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Paulo de Souza Lima<
>> paulo.s.lima@varekai.org>  wrote:
>>
>>> 2012/5/20 Paolo Pozzan<pa...@z2z.it>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Reading to all other messages in this thread, I think many missed the
>>>> point.
>>>> The problem is not about what language to use, but how to manage the
>>>> to-be-volunteers which don't or wouldn't have the same skills as ours.
>>>> Volunteers are a big marketing weapon; is like happy workers that
>> freely
>>>> advertise the company they work for. OTOH rejected volunteers (even for
>>>> difficulty of access - e.g. language) will feel the final product less
>>>> theirs, so they will be less willing to marketing that.
>>>>
>>>> Like many "opposers" of AOO Project (incubating) (get it? ;-) say, the
>>>> Apache Software Foundation has a long history of successful software
>> for
>>>> skilled technical users. I bet that the average OpenOffice user don't
>>> even
>>>> know what a programming language exactly is, so I think this is a new
>>>> exciting challenge for the Apache folks.
>>>>
>>>> What I understood in my experience with italian volunteers is that
>> people
>>>> love to contribute in a hassle-free maneer, this means that someone
>> else
>>>> have to show them the way, letting them just do. I know this may sound
>>>> disappointing, but it is not a limit of freedom if someone choose by
>>>> his/her own to follow some rules.
>>>>
>>>> I think that it would be useful to write some basic guidelines for the
>>>> native language teams to know what to do and what not. Letting them
>> know
>>> it
>>>> would eventually lead to the birth of local communities, where "basic"
>>>> contributors will eventually will go there.
>>>> Maybe many of us have still in mind the old OpenOffice.org structure,
>>>> which worked fine for the language teams and to which we can consider
>>>> copying from.
>>>>
>>>> Paolo
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's exactly what is happening to brazilian community. The most of us
>>> have not technical skills. But we are AOO users and we have influence to
>>> convince many people and organizations to give a chance on AOO. And we
>> are
>>> being striked a lot because of that, but we are standing still.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Paulo de Souza Lima
>>> http://almalivre.wordpress.com
>>> Curitiba - PR
>>> Linux User #432358
>>> Ubuntu User #28729
>>>
>>
>> Paulo,
>> I am not sure I understand either.  What is missing that would make it
>> easier for you to do what you want to accomplish?

Maybe is about what must be missed. Asking a volunteer to subscribe to a 
mailing list with hundreds of messages in a month can be very 
frustrating and also annoying.

> Hi Wolf.
>
> Nothing at all, actually. It would be good if we had a pt-br mailing list,
> but we are using a mailing list from Escritorio Livre Community. The most
> important for people up here,maybe, would have support and acceptance from
> AOO without many "bureaucractic issues". We are proud to help and we help
> for fun, without political or economic interests.
>
> I think this could lead to a polemic discussion and I don't wish to be
> polemic. Sorry.

Paulo, as long as you are looking for a way to get better processes you 
cannot lead to polemic discussions. Let's find a solution togheter.

Paolo

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Paulo de Souza Lima <pa...@varekai.org>]

2012/5/20 Wolf Halton <wo...@gmail.com>

> On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Paulo de Souza Lima <
> paulo.s.lima@varekai.org> wrote:
>
> > 2012/5/20 Paolo Pozzan <pa...@z2z.it>
> > >
> > >
> > > Reading to all other messages in this thread, I think many missed the
> > > point.
> > > The problem is not about what language to use, but how to manage the
> > > to-be-volunteers which don't or wouldn't have the same skills as ours.
> > > Volunteers are a big marketing weapon; is like happy workers that
> freely
> > > advertise the company they work for. OTOH rejected volunteers (even for
> > > difficulty of access - e.g. language) will feel the final product less
> > > theirs, so they will be less willing to marketing that.
> > >
> > > Like many "opposers" of AOO Project (incubating) (get it? ;-) say, the
> > > Apache Software Foundation has a long history of successful software
> for
> > > skilled technical users. I bet that the average OpenOffice user don't
> > even
> > > know what a programming language exactly is, so I think this is a new
> > > exciting challenge for the Apache folks.
> > >
> > > What I understood in my experience with italian volunteers is that
> people
> > > love to contribute in a hassle-free maneer, this means that someone
> else
> > > have to show them the way, letting them just do. I know this may sound
> > > disappointing, but it is not a limit of freedom if someone choose by
> > > his/her own to follow some rules.
> > >
> > > I think that it would be useful to write some basic guidelines for the
> > > native language teams to know what to do and what not. Letting them
> know
> > it
> > > would eventually lead to the birth of local communities, where "basic"
> > > contributors will eventually will go there.
> > > Maybe many of us have still in mind the old OpenOffice.org structure,
> > > which worked fine for the language teams and to which we can consider
> > > copying from.
> > >
> > > Paolo
> > >
> >
> > That's exactly what is happening to brazilian community. The most of us
> > have not technical skills. But we are AOO users and we have influence to
> > convince many people and organizations to give a chance on AOO. And we
> are
> > being striked a lot because of that, but we are standing still.
> >
> > --
> > Paulo de Souza Lima
> > http://almalivre.wordpress.com
> > Curitiba - PR
> > Linux User #432358
> > Ubuntu User #28729
> >
>
> Paulo,
> I am not sure I understand either.  What is missing that would make it
> easier for you to do what you want to accomplish?
>

Hi Wolf.

Nothing at all, actually. It would be good if we had a pt-br mailing list,
but we are using a mailing list from Escritorio Livre Community. The most
important for people up here,maybe, would have support and acceptance from
AOO without many "bureaucractic issues". We are proud to help and we help
for fun, without political or economic interests.

I think this could lead to a polemic discussion and I don't wish to be
polemic. Sorry.


>
> Wolf
>
>
Regards.
-- 
Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Wolf Halton <wo...@gmail.com>]

On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Paulo de Souza Lima <
paulo.s.lima@varekai.org> wrote:

> 2012/5/20 Paolo Pozzan <pa...@z2z.it>
> >
> >
> > Reading to all other messages in this thread, I think many missed the
> > point.
> > The problem is not about what language to use, but how to manage the
> > to-be-volunteers which don't or wouldn't have the same skills as ours.
> > Volunteers are a big marketing weapon; is like happy workers that freely
> > advertise the company they work for. OTOH rejected volunteers (even for
> > difficulty of access - e.g. language) will feel the final product less
> > theirs, so they will be less willing to marketing that.
> >
> > Like many "opposers" of AOO Project (incubating) (get it? ;-) say, the
> > Apache Software Foundation has a long history of successful software for
> > skilled technical users. I bet that the average OpenOffice user don't
> even
> > know what a programming language exactly is, so I think this is a new
> > exciting challenge for the Apache folks.
> >
> > What I understood in my experience with italian volunteers is that people
> > love to contribute in a hassle-free maneer, this means that someone else
> > have to show them the way, letting them just do. I know this may sound
> > disappointing, but it is not a limit of freedom if someone choose by
> > his/her own to follow some rules.
> >
> > I think that it would be useful to write some basic guidelines for the
> > native language teams to know what to do and what not. Letting them know
> it
> > would eventually lead to the birth of local communities, where "basic"
> > contributors will eventually will go there.
> > Maybe many of us have still in mind the old OpenOffice.org structure,
> > which worked fine for the language teams and to which we can consider
> > copying from.
> >
> > Paolo
> >
>
> That's exactly what is happening to brazilian community. The most of us
> have not technical skills. But we are AOO users and we have influence to
> convince many people and organizations to give a chance on AOO. And we are
> being striked a lot because of that, but we are standing still.
>
> --
> Paulo de Souza Lima
> http://almalivre.wordpress.com
> Curitiba - PR
> Linux User #432358
> Ubuntu User #28729
>

Paulo,
I am not sure I understand either.  What is missing that would make it
easier for you to do what you want to accomplish?

Wolf

-- 
This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - http://sourcefreedom.com
Open-Source Software in Libraries - http://FOSS4Lib.org
Advancing Libraries Together - http://LYRASIS.org
Apache Open Office Developer wolfhalton@apache.org

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Paulo de Souza Lima <pa...@varekai.org>]

2012/5/20 Paolo Pozzan <pa...@z2z.it>
>
>
> Reading to all other messages in this thread, I think many missed the
> point.
> The problem is not about what language to use, but how to manage the
> to-be-volunteers which don't or wouldn't have the same skills as ours.
> Volunteers are a big marketing weapon; is like happy workers that freely
> advertise the company they work for. OTOH rejected volunteers (even for
> difficulty of access - e.g. language) will feel the final product less
> theirs, so they will be less willing to marketing that.
>
> Like many "opposers" of AOO Project (incubating) (get it? ;-) say, the
> Apache Software Foundation has a long history of successful software for
> skilled technical users. I bet that the average OpenOffice user don't even
> know what a programming language exactly is, so I think this is a new
> exciting challenge for the Apache folks.
>
> What I understood in my experience with italian volunteers is that people
> love to contribute in a hassle-free maneer, this means that someone else
> have to show them the way, letting them just do. I know this may sound
> disappointing, but it is not a limit of freedom if someone choose by
> his/her own to follow some rules.
>
> I think that it would be useful to write some basic guidelines for the
> native language teams to know what to do and what not. Letting them know it
> would eventually lead to the birth of local communities, where "basic"
> contributors will eventually will go there.
> Maybe many of us have still in mind the old OpenOffice.org structure,
> which worked fine for the language teams and to which we can consider
> copying from.
>
> Paolo
>

That's exactly what is happening to brazilian community. The most of us
have not technical skills. But we are AOO users and we have influence to
convince many people and organizations to give a chance on AOO. And we are
being striked a lot because of that, but we are standing still.

-- 
Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

RE: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>]

I fear that we are back where this conversation started:

     Everything can be managed inside
     Apache OpenOffice project.

Even if I change "managed" to "accomplished" I do not see how "Everything" is achieved without *necessary* bureaucracy.

I think it is time to deal with individual specific requests so that the conditions on being "inside Apache OpenOffice" can be applied case-by-case.  With experience, I think it will become clear.

 - Dennis


-----Original Message-----
From: Paulo de Souza Lima [mailto:paulo.s.lima@varekai.org] 
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 10:19
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

2012/5/21 Paolo Pozzan <pa...@z2z.it>

> Il 20/05/2012 21:25, Dennis E. Hamilton ha scritto:
>
>  I want to encourage all that you say here.
>>
>> I am not so confident that the openoffice.org approach (that is, what
>> Sun allowed and supported) is applicable here because the ASF as a
>> foundation must operate differently than a commercial enterprise.
>>
>> That can be a minor thing, once the guidelines are clear.
>>
>> Do you have suggestions on how affiliation with ASF and the Apache
>> OpenOffice project can be reconciled?  Need there be any?  If there is
>> coupling between an NL community and AOO, what arrangement do you request?
>>
>
> Of course there is no need to do exactly what Sun did, just take what we
> miss.
> There are already good examples of working local communities, so that is a
> good starting point.
> While some communities may have their organizations, I don't think there
> is need to affiliation at this point. Everything can be managed inside
> Apache OpenOffice project.
>
> Paolo
>

+1



-- 
Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Paulo de Souza Lima <pa...@varekai.org>]

2012/5/21 Paolo Pozzan <pa...@z2z.it>

> Il 20/05/2012 21:25, Dennis E. Hamilton ha scritto:
>
>  I want to encourage all that you say here.
>>
>> I am not so confident that the openoffice.org approach (that is, what
>> Sun allowed and supported) is applicable here because the ASF as a
>> foundation must operate differently than a commercial enterprise.
>>
>> That can be a minor thing, once the guidelines are clear.
>>
>> Do you have suggestions on how affiliation with ASF and the Apache
>> OpenOffice project can be reconciled?  Need there be any?  If there is
>> coupling between an NL community and AOO, what arrangement do you request?
>>
>
> Of course there is no need to do exactly what Sun did, just take what we
> miss.
> There are already good examples of working local communities, so that is a
> good starting point.
> While some communities may have their organizations, I don't think there
> is need to affiliation at this point. Everything can be managed inside
> Apache OpenOffice project.
>
> Paolo
>

+1



-- 
Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Paolo Pozzan <pa...@z2z.it>]

Il 20/05/2012 21:25, Dennis E. Hamilton ha scritto:
> I want to encourage all that you say here.
>
> I am not so confident that the openoffice.org approach (that is, what Sun allowed and supported) is applicable here because the ASF as a foundation must operate differently than a commercial enterprise.
>
> That can be a minor thing, once the guidelines are clear.
>
> Do you have suggestions on how affiliation with ASF and the Apache OpenOffice project can be reconciled?  Need there be any?  If there is coupling between an NL community and AOO, what arrangement do you request?

Of course there is no need to do exactly what Sun did, just take what we 
miss.
There are already good examples of working local communities, so that is 
a good starting point.
While some communities may have their organizations, I don't think there 
is need to affiliation at this point. Everything can be managed inside 
Apache OpenOffice project.

Paolo

RE: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>]

I want to encourage all that you say here.

I am not so confident that the openoffice.org approach (that is, what Sun allowed and supported) is applicable here because the ASF as a foundation must operate differently than a commercial enterprise.

That can be a minor thing, once the guidelines are clear.

Do you have suggestions on how affiliation with ASF and the Apache OpenOffice project can be reconciled?  Need there be any?  If there is coupling between an NL community and AOO, what arrangement do you request?

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Paolo Pozzan [mailto:paolo@z2z.it] 
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 11:34
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[ ... ]

Reading to all other messages in this thread, I think many missed the point.
The problem is not about what language to use, but how to manage the 
to-be-volunteers which don't or wouldn't have the same skills as ours.
Volunteers are a big marketing weapon; is like happy workers that freely 
advertise the company they work for. OTOH rejected volunteers (even for 
difficulty of access - e.g. language) will feel the final product less 
theirs, so they will be less willing to marketing that.

[ ... ]

What I understood in my experience with italian volunteers is that 
people love to contribute in a hassle-free maneer, this means that 
someone else have to show them the way, letting them just do. I know 
this may sound disappointing, but it is not a limit of freedom if 
someone choose by his/her own to follow some rules.

I think that it would be useful to write some basic guidelines for the 
native language teams to know what to do and what not. Letting them know 
it would eventually lead to the birth of local communities, where 
"basic" contributors will eventually will go there.
Maybe many of us have still in mind the old OpenOffice.org structure, 
which worked fine for the language teams and to which we can consider 
copying from.

Paolo

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Paolo Pozzan <pa...@z2z.it>]

Il 18/05/2012 16:55, drew jensen ha scritto:
> Hi,
>
> Recently there has been some discussion on the projects private ML
> regarding issues about native language groups and how best to support
> work groups which will by definition be somewhat circumscribed from the
> whole by virtue of language without losing the cohesion of a single
> project focus.
>
> I invite others pick that up here:

Reading to all other messages in this thread, I think many missed the point.
The problem is not about what language to use, but how to manage the 
to-be-volunteers which don't or wouldn't have the same skills as ours.
Volunteers are a big marketing weapon; is like happy workers that freely 
advertise the company they work for. OTOH rejected volunteers (even for 
difficulty of access - e.g. language) will feel the final product less 
theirs, so they will be less willing to marketing that.

Like many "opposers" of AOO Project (incubating) (get it? ;-) say, the 
Apache Software Foundation has a long history of successful software for 
skilled technical users. I bet that the average OpenOffice user don't 
even know what a programming language exactly is, so I think this is a 
new exciting challenge for the Apache folks.

What I understood in my experience with italian volunteers is that 
people love to contribute in a hassle-free maneer, this means that 
someone else have to show them the way, letting them just do. I know 
this may sound disappointing, but it is not a limit of freedom if 
someone choose by his/her own to follow some rules.

I think that it would be useful to write some basic guidelines for the 
native language teams to know what to do and what not. Letting them know 
it would eventually lead to the birth of local communities, where 
"basic" contributors will eventually will go there.
Maybe many of us have still in mind the old OpenOffice.org structure, 
which worked fine for the language teams and to which we can consider 
copying from.

Paolo

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Paulo de Souza Lima <pa...@varekai.org>]

2012/5/18 drew jensen <dr...@gmail.com>

> Hi,
>
> Recently there has been some discussion on the projects private ML
> regarding issues about native language groups and how best to support
> work groups which will by definition be somewhat circumscribed from the
> whole by virtue of language without losing the cohesion of a single
> project focus.
>
> I invite others pick that up here:
>
>
That's our case here in Brazil. How can we include people who are not
familiar with English language?


-- 
Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>]

On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 11:44 -0400, Donald Whytock wrote:
> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:38 AM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 11:29 -0400, Donald Whytock wrote:
> >> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:20 AM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> >> > On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 11:08 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> >> >> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 10:55 AM, drew jensen
> >> >> <dr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > Hi,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Recently there has been some discussion on the projects private ML
> >> >> > regarding issues about native language groups and how best to support
> >> >> > work groups which will by definition be somewhat circumscribed from the
> >> >> > whole by virtue of language without losing the cohesion of a single
> >> >> > project focus.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I invite others pick that up here:
> >> >>
> >> >> What we do currently:
> >> >>
> >> >> 1) One big ooo-dev list
> >> >>
> >> >> 2) Some NL-specific lists.  I don't subscribe to them at all, so
> >> >> others would need to say how they are currently being used.
> >> >>
> >> >> 3) We have some emerging procedures for how volunteers can contribute
> >> >> to product and website translations, but this information is scattered
> >> >> in old ooo-dev posts and not easy to find.
> >> >>
> >> >> I wonder whether a good step forward might be to document on our
> >> >> project website (http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg) the
> >> >> procedures from #3 above.  Then when we have a new volunteer on the
> >> >> list we can point them to this information.  This could expand to
> >> >> other NL topics such as local marketing/events, trademark usage,  NL
> >> >> mailing lists, etc.
> >> >
> >> > hmm I would say, eventually yes, but if you mean - one giant dev list is
> >> > already the decided outcome and so just document it as such, then I'd
> >> > say no, not yet.
> >> >
> >> > I do not think this project is such that one can just say 'the Apache
> >> > way' and be done with it - there is about to be a new Apache way me
> >> > thinks.
> >> >
> >> > For instance I wonder how much experience there is in the Apache Way
> >> > with a project which will need to look local in certain places around
> >> > the world (China, Vietnam, Brasil, Venzuela and Bolivia come to mind
> >> > quickly) as without this the local government support goes away and
> >> > without that so does the local project - or at least that is my
> >> > understanding of the situation in those places. I use that only to say
> >> > that IMO this needs some real thought as to how this project is going to
> >> > build itself.
> >>
> >> Has any thought been given to reaching out to language-teaching
> >> communities at colleges for translation assistance?  This would do
> >> dual duty of getting help with translation of top-level site
> >> information and spreading the word about AOO.  There may be teachers
> >> who would consider translation of NL pages extra-credit work for
> >> students.
> >
> > Sounds like a great idea, if, the reason for this project is simply to
> > scratch an itch - in other words if the goal here is to build the
> > software and then not really concern ourselves with who uses it, because
> > that is outside of the scope of this project and left to others to do
> > (and a valid position, perhaps) then I'd say sure, that sounds like one
> > good avenue to work on. In that scenario of the reason for the project
> > we don't care really about building local teams, only in the work
> > product.
> >
> > //drew
> 
> I was thinking of a bootstrap.  At the moment, if all the policies and
> procedures and process descriptions are in English, then all your NL
> communities must start with a person who's capable in both English and
> the target language.  If, on the other hand, you mass-produce
> translations of those policies and procedures and process descriptions
> into multiple languages and put them on NL root pages, you've widened
> your community-founding pool.

Hi Don,

OK, I believe I have it now.


> 
> Yes, scratching an itch.  And prying open a door.
> 

Well, I think I'll go wonder off for a bit and let others have a chance
to pipe in as they see fit.

Thanks,

//drew


> Don
> 

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

On May 18, 2012, at 4:52 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:

> 
> On May 18, 2012, at 8:44 AM, Donald Whytock wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:38 AM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 11:29 -0400, Donald Whytock wrote:
>>>> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:20 AM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 11:08 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 10:55 AM, drew jensen
>>>>>> <dr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Recently there has been some discussion on the projects private ML
>>>>>>> regarding issues about native language groups and how best to support
>>>>>>> work groups which will by definition be somewhat circumscribed from the
>>>>>>> whole by virtue of language without losing the cohesion of a single
>>>>>>> project focus.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I invite others pick that up here:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What we do currently:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1) One big ooo-dev list
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 2) Some NL-specific lists.  I don't subscribe to them at all, so
>>>>>> others would need to say how they are currently being used.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 3) We have some emerging procedures for how volunteers can contribute
>>>>>> to product and website translations, but this information is scattered
>>>>>> in old ooo-dev posts and not easy to find.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I wonder whether a good step forward might be to document on our
>>>>>> project website (http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg) the
>>>>>> procedures from #3 above.  Then when we have a new volunteer on the
>>>>>> list we can point them to this information.  This could expand to
>>>>>> other NL topics such as local marketing/events, trademark usage,  NL
>>>>>> mailing lists, etc.
>>>>> 
>>>>> hmm I would say, eventually yes, but if you mean - one giant dev list is
>>>>> already the decided outcome and so just document it as such, then I'd
>>>>> say no, not yet.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I do not think this project is such that one can just say 'the Apache
>>>>> way' and be done with it - there is about to be a new Apache way me
>>>>> thinks.
>>>>> 
>>>>> For instance I wonder how much experience there is in the Apache Way
>>>>> with a project which will need to look local in certain places around
>>>>> the world (China, Vietnam, Brasil, Venzuela and Bolivia come to mind
>>>>> quickly) as without this the local government support goes away and
>>>>> without that so does the local project - or at least that is my
>>>>> understanding of the situation in those places. I use that only to say
>>>>> that IMO this needs some real thought as to how this project is going to
>>>>> build itself.
>>>> 
>>>> Has any thought been given to reaching out to language-teaching
>>>> communities at colleges for translation assistance?  This would do
>>>> dual duty of getting help with translation of top-level site
>>>> information and spreading the word about AOO.  There may be teachers
>>>> who would consider translation of NL pages extra-credit work for
>>>> students.
>>> 
>>> Sounds like a great idea, if, the reason for this project is simply to
>>> scratch an itch - in other words if the goal here is to build the
>>> software and then not really concern ourselves with who uses it, because
>>> that is outside of the scope of this project and left to others to do
>>> (and a valid position, perhaps) then I'd say sure, that sounds like one
>>> good avenue to work on. In that scenario of the reason for the project
>>> we don't care really about building local teams, only in the work
>>> product.
>>> 
>>> //drew
>> 
>> I was thinking of a bootstrap.  At the moment, if all the policies and
>> procedures and process descriptions are in English, then all your NL
>> communities must start with a person who's capable in both English and
>> the target language.  If, on the other hand, you mass-produce
>> translations of those policies and procedures and process descriptions
>> into multiple languages and put them on NL root pages, you've widened
>> your community-founding pool.
>> 
>> Yes, scratching an itch.  And prying open a door.
> 
> I like your idea here. It can be done. If the translation is bad then a Native Language speaker might scratch their itch for better language.

It may not be very difficult to do this. A script can be written to use Google Translate to make translations of the current brand.mdtext and topnav.mdtext. I've been planning to rewrite the main page as mdtext. If other pages are in mdtext as well then it will be easy to automatically translate. This becomes the first pass.

This itch has been getting stronger, I'm going to need to scratch it next week sometime. $Job needs some time first.

Regards,
Dave


> 
> Regards,
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> Don
> 

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

On May 18, 2012, at 8:44 AM, Donald Whytock wrote:

> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:38 AM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 11:29 -0400, Donald Whytock wrote:
>>> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:20 AM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 11:08 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 10:55 AM, drew jensen
>>>>> <dr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Recently there has been some discussion on the projects private ML
>>>>>> regarding issues about native language groups and how best to support
>>>>>> work groups which will by definition be somewhat circumscribed from the
>>>>>> whole by virtue of language without losing the cohesion of a single
>>>>>> project focus.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I invite others pick that up here:
>>>>> 
>>>>> What we do currently:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1) One big ooo-dev list
>>>>> 
>>>>> 2) Some NL-specific lists.  I don't subscribe to them at all, so
>>>>> others would need to say how they are currently being used.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 3) We have some emerging procedures for how volunteers can contribute
>>>>> to product and website translations, but this information is scattered
>>>>> in old ooo-dev posts and not easy to find.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I wonder whether a good step forward might be to document on our
>>>>> project website (http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg) the
>>>>> procedures from #3 above.  Then when we have a new volunteer on the
>>>>> list we can point them to this information.  This could expand to
>>>>> other NL topics such as local marketing/events, trademark usage,  NL
>>>>> mailing lists, etc.
>>>> 
>>>> hmm I would say, eventually yes, but if you mean - one giant dev list is
>>>> already the decided outcome and so just document it as such, then I'd
>>>> say no, not yet.
>>>> 
>>>> I do not think this project is such that one can just say 'the Apache
>>>> way' and be done with it - there is about to be a new Apache way me
>>>> thinks.
>>>> 
>>>> For instance I wonder how much experience there is in the Apache Way
>>>> with a project which will need to look local in certain places around
>>>> the world (China, Vietnam, Brasil, Venzuela and Bolivia come to mind
>>>> quickly) as without this the local government support goes away and
>>>> without that so does the local project - or at least that is my
>>>> understanding of the situation in those places. I use that only to say
>>>> that IMO this needs some real thought as to how this project is going to
>>>> build itself.
>>> 
>>> Has any thought been given to reaching out to language-teaching
>>> communities at colleges for translation assistance?  This would do
>>> dual duty of getting help with translation of top-level site
>>> information and spreading the word about AOO.  There may be teachers
>>> who would consider translation of NL pages extra-credit work for
>>> students.
>> 
>> Sounds like a great idea, if, the reason for this project is simply to
>> scratch an itch - in other words if the goal here is to build the
>> software and then not really concern ourselves with who uses it, because
>> that is outside of the scope of this project and left to others to do
>> (and a valid position, perhaps) then I'd say sure, that sounds like one
>> good avenue to work on. In that scenario of the reason for the project
>> we don't care really about building local teams, only in the work
>> product.
>> 
>> //drew
> 
> I was thinking of a bootstrap.  At the moment, if all the policies and
> procedures and process descriptions are in English, then all your NL
> communities must start with a person who's capable in both English and
> the target language.  If, on the other hand, you mass-produce
> translations of those policies and procedures and process descriptions
> into multiple languages and put them on NL root pages, you've widened
> your community-founding pool.
> 
> Yes, scratching an itch.  And prying open a door.

I like your idea here. It can be done. If the translation is bad then a Native Language speaker might scratch their itch for better language.

Regards,
Dave



> 
> Don

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Donald Whytock <dw...@gmail.com>]

On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:38 AM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 11:29 -0400, Donald Whytock wrote:
>> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:20 AM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
>> > On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 11:08 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
>> >> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 10:55 AM, drew jensen
>> >> <dr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > Hi,
>> >> >
>> >> > Recently there has been some discussion on the projects private ML
>> >> > regarding issues about native language groups and how best to support
>> >> > work groups which will by definition be somewhat circumscribed from the
>> >> > whole by virtue of language without losing the cohesion of a single
>> >> > project focus.
>> >> >
>> >> > I invite others pick that up here:
>> >>
>> >> What we do currently:
>> >>
>> >> 1) One big ooo-dev list
>> >>
>> >> 2) Some NL-specific lists.  I don't subscribe to them at all, so
>> >> others would need to say how they are currently being used.
>> >>
>> >> 3) We have some emerging procedures for how volunteers can contribute
>> >> to product and website translations, but this information is scattered
>> >> in old ooo-dev posts and not easy to find.
>> >>
>> >> I wonder whether a good step forward might be to document on our
>> >> project website (http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg) the
>> >> procedures from #3 above.  Then when we have a new volunteer on the
>> >> list we can point them to this information.  This could expand to
>> >> other NL topics such as local marketing/events, trademark usage,  NL
>> >> mailing lists, etc.
>> >
>> > hmm I would say, eventually yes, but if you mean - one giant dev list is
>> > already the decided outcome and so just document it as such, then I'd
>> > say no, not yet.
>> >
>> > I do not think this project is such that one can just say 'the Apache
>> > way' and be done with it - there is about to be a new Apache way me
>> > thinks.
>> >
>> > For instance I wonder how much experience there is in the Apache Way
>> > with a project which will need to look local in certain places around
>> > the world (China, Vietnam, Brasil, Venzuela and Bolivia come to mind
>> > quickly) as without this the local government support goes away and
>> > without that so does the local project - or at least that is my
>> > understanding of the situation in those places. I use that only to say
>> > that IMO this needs some real thought as to how this project is going to
>> > build itself.
>>
>> Has any thought been given to reaching out to language-teaching
>> communities at colleges for translation assistance?  This would do
>> dual duty of getting help with translation of top-level site
>> information and spreading the word about AOO.  There may be teachers
>> who would consider translation of NL pages extra-credit work for
>> students.
>
> Sounds like a great idea, if, the reason for this project is simply to
> scratch an itch - in other words if the goal here is to build the
> software and then not really concern ourselves with who uses it, because
> that is outside of the scope of this project and left to others to do
> (and a valid position, perhaps) then I'd say sure, that sounds like one
> good avenue to work on. In that scenario of the reason for the project
> we don't care really about building local teams, only in the work
> product.
>
> //drew

I was thinking of a bootstrap.  At the moment, if all the policies and
procedures and process descriptions are in English, then all your NL
communities must start with a person who's capable in both English and
the target language.  If, on the other hand, you mass-produce
translations of those policies and procedures and process descriptions
into multiple languages and put them on NL root pages, you've widened
your community-founding pool.

Yes, scratching an itch.  And prying open a door.

Don

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>]

On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 11:29 -0400, Donald Whytock wrote:
> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:20 AM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 11:08 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> >> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 10:55 AM, drew jensen
> >> <dr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > Recently there has been some discussion on the projects private ML
> >> > regarding issues about native language groups and how best to support
> >> > work groups which will by definition be somewhat circumscribed from the
> >> > whole by virtue of language without losing the cohesion of a single
> >> > project focus.
> >> >
> >> > I invite others pick that up here:
> >>
> >> What we do currently:
> >>
> >> 1) One big ooo-dev list
> >>
> >> 2) Some NL-specific lists.  I don't subscribe to them at all, so
> >> others would need to say how they are currently being used.
> >>
> >> 3) We have some emerging procedures for how volunteers can contribute
> >> to product and website translations, but this information is scattered
> >> in old ooo-dev posts and not easy to find.
> >>
> >> I wonder whether a good step forward might be to document on our
> >> project website (http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg) the
> >> procedures from #3 above.  Then when we have a new volunteer on the
> >> list we can point them to this information.  This could expand to
> >> other NL topics such as local marketing/events, trademark usage,  NL
> >> mailing lists, etc.
> >
> > hmm I would say, eventually yes, but if you mean - one giant dev list is
> > already the decided outcome and so just document it as such, then I'd
> > say no, not yet.
> >
> > I do not think this project is such that one can just say 'the Apache
> > way' and be done with it - there is about to be a new Apache way me
> > thinks.
> >
> > For instance I wonder how much experience there is in the Apache Way
> > with a project which will need to look local in certain places around
> > the world (China, Vietnam, Brasil, Venzuela and Bolivia come to mind
> > quickly) as without this the local government support goes away and
> > without that so does the local project - or at least that is my
> > understanding of the situation in those places. I use that only to say
> > that IMO this needs some real thought as to how this project is going to
> > build itself.
> 
> Has any thought been given to reaching out to language-teaching
> communities at colleges for translation assistance?  This would do
> dual duty of getting help with translation of top-level site
> information and spreading the word about AOO.  There may be teachers
> who would consider translation of NL pages extra-credit work for
> students.

Sounds like a great idea, if, the reason for this project is simply to
scratch an itch - in other words if the goal here is to build the
software and then not really concern ourselves with who uses it, because
that is outside of the scope of this project and left to others to do
(and a valid position, perhaps) then I'd say sure, that sounds like one
good avenue to work on. In that scenario of the reason for the project
we don't care really about building local teams, only in the work
product.

//drew

> 
> Don
> 

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Donald Whytock <dw...@gmail.com>]

On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:20 AM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 11:08 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
>> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 10:55 AM, drew jensen
>> <dr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > Recently there has been some discussion on the projects private ML
>> > regarding issues about native language groups and how best to support
>> > work groups which will by definition be somewhat circumscribed from the
>> > whole by virtue of language without losing the cohesion of a single
>> > project focus.
>> >
>> > I invite others pick that up here:
>>
>> What we do currently:
>>
>> 1) One big ooo-dev list
>>
>> 2) Some NL-specific lists.  I don't subscribe to them at all, so
>> others would need to say how they are currently being used.
>>
>> 3) We have some emerging procedures for how volunteers can contribute
>> to product and website translations, but this information is scattered
>> in old ooo-dev posts and not easy to find.
>>
>> I wonder whether a good step forward might be to document on our
>> project website (http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg) the
>> procedures from #3 above.  Then when we have a new volunteer on the
>> list we can point them to this information.  This could expand to
>> other NL topics such as local marketing/events, trademark usage,  NL
>> mailing lists, etc.
>
> hmm I would say, eventually yes, but if you mean - one giant dev list is
> already the decided outcome and so just document it as such, then I'd
> say no, not yet.
>
> I do not think this project is such that one can just say 'the Apache
> way' and be done with it - there is about to be a new Apache way me
> thinks.
>
> For instance I wonder how much experience there is in the Apache Way
> with a project which will need to look local in certain places around
> the world (China, Vietnam, Brasil, Venzuela and Bolivia come to mind
> quickly) as without this the local government support goes away and
> without that so does the local project - or at least that is my
> understanding of the situation in those places. I use that only to say
> that IMO this needs some real thought as to how this project is going to
> build itself.

Has any thought been given to reaching out to language-teaching
communities at colleges for translation assistance?  This would do
dual duty of getting help with translation of top-level site
information and spreading the word about AOO.  There may be teachers
who would consider translation of NL pages extra-credit work for
students.

Don

RE: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>]

Rob has provided clear answers to many of the questions raised.  I want to address the choice and use of languages.

I have been on the Apache OpenOffice project since it was proposed to the Apache Software Foundation (ASF) at the beginning of June, 2011.  I am not a Member or officer of the ASF.  I do not speak for the ASF nor for the Apache OpenOffice project.  These are my personal understandings:

 1. THE WORKING LANGUAGE OF THE APACHE OPENOFFICE PROJECT MUST BE ENGLISH
    The operation of ASF as a public-interest foundation makes use of English essential.  A single working language is needed for governance, project accountability, and public oversight of activities.  It is critical for assurance of the integrity of releases, of other deliverables, and operation of infrastructure and support services under the ASF.
    Having a sustainable community -- following the Apache Way -- requires a shared language.
    Having all deliberations be public and visible in one place leads to "if it didn't happen on the [ooo-dev] list, it didn't happen."
    It is challenging to operate this way.  The principles are important.

 2. THERE ARE ACCOMODATIONS AVAILABLE FOR WORKING IN NATIONAL LANGUAGES
    Have multi-lingual, English-comfortable experts provide oversight and accountability to the Apache OpenOffice (AOO) project.  Create governance arrangements that satisfy ASF and AOO requirements.  The arrangement for governance of the OpenOffice Community Forums is an example.  This requires diligent oversight.  Oversight is not management nor is it direct supervision.  It does require active attention.
 
 3. IT IS ALWAYS POSSIBLE TO OPERATE DOWNSTREAM AND CONTRIBUTE UPSTREAM
    At Apache, forking is a feature.  So is creation of downstream support and deliverables.  Being autonomous requires clean separation: the trademarks and licenses of the ASF must be honored.
    Ideally, anything that would improve the common code base and shared materials would be contributed back to the origin project using (1) or (2).  
    To claim operation is part of Apache OpenOffice, the work must be under (1) or, at the least, (2).

It can all be worked out by discussion toward a mutual agreement.

 - Dennis

PS: I understand that my being a native speaker of English is to my advantage in this situation.  It is not in my power to change that.  It is in my power to make every effort to support the participation of non-native English speakers. I believe that strong multinational and multicultural participation in Apache OpenOffice is critical.  It is possible within the constraints that must be honored.  That takes commitment and effort from all of us.  

-----Original Message-----
From: Paulo de Souza Lima [mailto:paulo.s.lima@varekai.org] 
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2012 10:40
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[ ... ]


2 - There's a lot of people here in Brazil willing to help AOO, but they
can't because they can't read/write/speak English. I can count at least
three right now, in our (provisory) mailing list at Escritório Livre.


3 - Some of them, even knowing English language, have difficulties to reach
this list because they feel, let's say, unconfortable in dealing with
"famous people" like many of you. =) Apache seems to be a serious place
(maybe too serious) for those people. They are affraid to be misundestood.

[ ... ]

Sorry but I can't remember the corresponding word in English for the
portuguese word "sisudo", so I placed the word "serious". Maybe someone can
help me because Google Translate couldn't.  =)


>
> IMHO, I believe there is more misunderstanding or even lack of
> knowledge about The Apache Way than there are cases of it not working
> for this project.  Remember, we've grown very quickly, and a good
> portion of the current volunteers did not go through all the learning
> experiences the initial PMC members had last year.
>

That's a fact!


>
> So let's make a list of whatever real current problems we think we
> have.  We might be able to deal with those.  But I doubt there will be
> much time left over to deal with hypothetical problems.
>

Well, those I described above are not hypothetical.


>
> -Rob
>
>
Thanks for this opening.

-- 
Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Paulo de Souza Lima <pa...@varekai.org>]

2012/5/18 Regina Henschel <rb...@t-online.de>

> Hi,
>

<snip>

> It is possible to work on Media-Wiki without English skills. You only need
> a small sheet with basic formatting commands. The UI of the Wiki uses
> native language. I don't know how many languages are supported, but I see a
> lot in the drop down list.
>
> Look at the categories FR, ES, JA, or RU to see what is possible. (BTW,
> you will not see a lot of German content, because we had already
> ooowiki.de before the openoffice-wiki started, and that has >1000 pages.)
> You can put a lot of end-user help into the wiki and go far beyond the
> build-in help.
>
> Kind regards
> Regina
>

It's possible to do more than that. It's possible for users to create pages
using preformated templates and forms.

For example: If a user wishes to include some sort of tutorial in the wiki,
he/she could only fill a form in a page. Once he/she clicks in "Save"
buttom, the corresponding page is created, automaticaly categorized and
displayed in another page containing a preformated semantic search that
shows all related documents together. Without the need to edit pages and
pages of references.

-- 
Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Regina Henschel <rb...@t-online.de>]

Hi,

Rob Weir schrieb:
> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 1:40 PM, Paulo de Souza Lima
> <pa...@varekai.org>  wrote:
>> 2012/5/18 Rob Weir<ro...@apache.org>
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Not really.  I'm not presuming to say what others should or should not
>>> want to do.  And I'm not going to speculate on what "the project"
>>> wants to do, whatever the heck that means.
>>>
>>> Let's not speculate or deal in hypothetical about how some
>>> hypothetical volunteer from Bolivia may or may not want to do for some
>>> hypothetical grant.  We don't need an elaborate apparatus to deal with
>>> such questions that have not actually occurred here.
>>>
>>> Instead, let's ask of the here and now:  Is there anything any
>>> volunteer on the project wants to do, that they believe that they
>>> cannot do?  I'd encourage them to speak up, regardless of country or
>>> language.  Let's make a list.
>>>
>>
>> Well, as long as you've opened a channel, I have something to say about it.
>>
[..]
>> 2 - There's a lot of people here in Brazil willing to help AOO, but they
>> can't because they can't read/write/speak English. I can count at least
>> three right now, in our (provisory) mailing list at Escritório Livre.
>
> What do the volunteers want to do?
>
> If a volunteer wants to contribute code, they need to understand C++.
> If they want to contribute to the website design then they need to
> understand HTML/CSS.  And so on.  There are basic per-requisite skills
> needed.  And across all of these there is the need to be able to
> read/write English.   I don't see how this can be avoided.

It is possible to work on Media-Wiki without English skills. You only 
need a small sheet with basic formatting commands. The UI of the Wiki 
uses native language. I don't know how many languages are supported, but 
I see a lot in the drop down list.

Look at the categories FR, ES, JA, or RU to see what is possible. (BTW, 
you will not see a lot of German content, because we had already 
ooowiki.de before the openoffice-wiki started, and that has >1000 
pages.) You can put a lot of end-user help into the wiki and go far 
beyond the build-in help.

Kind regards
Regina

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

On May 18, 2012, at 11:03 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

>> 3 - Some of them, even knowing English language, have difficulties to reach
>> this list because they feel, let's say, unconfortable in dealing with
>> "famous people" like many of you. =) Apache seems to be a serious place
>> (maybe too serious) for those people. They are affraid to be misundestood.
> 
> My philosophy with this project was to try to be the first person to
> make every possible mistake.  I looked for things that no was trying,
> and did them, just to show that it could be done.  I didn't care if I
> looked foolish.  I think we need more people willing to take that kind
> of risk.  I think you will find that the project is very "forgiving"
> of English learners.

I think this is core to the Apache Way. With humility. I've had a similar philosophy.

For me, one benefit of working on this project is learning how to be more tolerant of those who have to read and write the messages on this list.

And, it can be a lot even for those who speak English as a first language. 

Regards,
Dave

RE: MediaWiki update (was Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams)

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>]

The JIRA Issue has been acknowledged.  INFRA indicates that there are believed to be two Apache OpenOffice project members already able to work on this.  

<https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4816>.

There is no information about priorities and any staging for a MediaWiki upgrade.

Meanwhile, the MediaWiki is available for edits and updates and improvements of content.

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Paulo de Souza Lima [mailto:paulo.s.lima@varekai.org] 
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2012 14:33
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; pfg@apache.org
Subject: Re: MediaWiki update (was Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams)

Hi Pedro.

I am available to help in anything you need. In fact updating and
installing extensions is an easy job. Don't worry.

2012/5/18 Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org>

[ ... ]
> I opened a JIRA issue:
>
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4816
>
> I think infra has actually no obligation to work
> on this as MW is not officially supported here. I
> even volunteered to help but I actually don't have
> any experience with MW so please be prepared to
> provide a listing of the extensions and other
> things that must be taken into account, just as if
> you were doing the update.
>
> Pedro.
>
>


-- 
Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

Re: MediaWiki update (was Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams)

[Paulo de Souza Lima <pa...@varekai.org>]

Hi Pedro.

I am available to help in anything you need. In fact updating and
installing extensions is an easy job. Don't worry.

2012/5/18 Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org>

> Hello;
>
> --- Ven 18/5/12, Paulo de Souza Lima ha scritto:
> ...
> >
> > > But what do you want to do?
> > >
> >
> > I want to upgrade Mediawiki to MW 1.19.x or, if it's not
> > possible, at least to 1.17.4, and install some useful
> > extensions. This shall not impact any actual function,
> > but will provide us tools to make AOO wiki a lot more
> > usable.
> >
>
> I opened a JIRA issue:
>
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4816
>
> I think infra has actually no obligation to work
> on this as MW is not officially supported here. I
> even volunteered to help but I actually don't have
> any experience with MW so please be prepared to
> provide a listing of the extensions and other
> things that must be taken into account, just as if
> you were doing the update.
>
> Pedro.
>
>


-- 
Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

Re: MediaWiki update (was Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams)

[Albino Biasutti Neto <bi...@gmail.com>]

Hi.

2012/5/20 Claudio Filho <fi...@gmail.com>

> 2012/5/18 Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org>:
> > I opened a JIRA issue:
> >
> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4816
>
> Wow! You was more fast that me, Pedro. I was writing now an issue for
> this. :-)
>
>
+1

I voted.

Albino

Re: MediaWiki update (was Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams)

[Claudio Filho <fi...@gmail.com>]

2012/5/18 Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org>:
> I opened a JIRA issue:
>
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4816

Wow! You was more fast that me, Pedro. I was writing now an issue for this. :-)

Thanks,
Claudio

RE: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>]

It seems to me that the volunteers can do what those volunteers wish to do.  As long as there is no contribution to materials and code under the custody of the project, it doesn't matter.  

So is something else wanted, such as identification with Apache OpenOffice?  Some sort of "official" designation?  Then it is difficult to avoid the need to fit into the governance and oversight requirements of ASF and AOO.  Perhaps an "Apache OpenOffice Partner" or "Supporter" or "Affiliate" arrangement might be easier.  Probably not.

For those cases involving sites and materials that are under ASF custody, ASF governance must be considered.  To "have the keys" to administration and the code base, it is necessary to submit bugs and patches and establish a pattern of contribution first.  And for those who are so privileged, it seems to me that the English working language requirement is part of the accountability.

 - Dennis  

-----Original Message-----
From: Paulo de Souza Lima [mailto:paulo.s.lima@varekai.org] 
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2012 12:37
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[ ... ]
> What do the volunteers want to do?
[ ... ]

They can help in spreading AOO, writing articles, helping user support,
lectures, making AOO present in events (soon there will be FISL, and other
large events). All of those things have to be made in Brazil and in
Portuguese. I thought the example we showed yesterday from that guy who
will install AOO in tens of thousands machines for a govenment digital
inclusion project should be enough.

Most of brazilian volunteers have no programming skills, but there are many
other ways they can help. Including some existing ones like UX, wiki, bug
hunting, and so on. Just one example: Miss Fatima Conti is a teacher at
Pará Federal University. She is a respectable figure in Brazilian Open
Source environment. She's more than 70 years old, she's not a programmer,
but many many users read her blog. She used to write articles for our old
BrOffice.org Magazine, but now she's helping to test AOO within her
possibilities. She can do a lot more for AOO, in terms of marketing. But
wait! We have no "marketing" yet. And she doesn't want to join a English
mailing list because she has difficulties with this language. There are a
lot of other examples. Most of people who wish to help are phisicians,
administrators (I am an administrator with some technical skills), lawyers,
teachers, account managers, and so on.


[ ... ]

Re: MediaWiki update (was Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams)

[drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>]

On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 13:30 -0700, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
> Hi Drew;
> 
> --- Ven 18/5/12, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> ha scritto:
> ...
> > > 
> > > I opened a JIRA issue:
> > > 
> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4816
> > > 
> > > I think infra has actually no obligation to work
> > > on this as MW is not officially supported here. I
> > > even volunteered to help but I actually don't have
> > > any experience with MW so please be prepared to
> > > provide a listing of the extensions and other
> > > things that must be taken into account, just as if
> > > you were doing the update.
> > >  
> > Hi Pedro.
> > 
> > There is a pretty detailed explanation (review) of such
> > things done
> > already - I'll go back and find the reference before the
> > weekend is out.
> >
> 
> Please add it to the JIRA issue: it's better to leave all
> the information in some central place.

It might already be attached to JIRA issue, I need to go look.

> 
> Pedro. 
> 
> 

Re: MediaWiki update (was Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams)

[Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org>]

Hi Drew;

--- Ven 18/5/12, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> ha scritto:
...
> > 
> > I opened a JIRA issue:
> > 
> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4816
> > 
> > I think infra has actually no obligation to work
> > on this as MW is not officially supported here. I
> > even volunteered to help but I actually don't have
> > any experience with MW so please be prepared to
> > provide a listing of the extensions and other
> > things that must be taken into account, just as if
> > you were doing the update.
> >  
> Hi Pedro.
> 
> There is a pretty detailed explanation (review) of such
> things done
> already - I'll go back and find the reference before the
> weekend is out.
>

Please add it to the JIRA issue: it's better to leave all
the information in some central place.

Pedro. 

Re: MediaWiki update (was Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams)

[drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>]

On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 13:24 -0700, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
> Hello;
> 
> --- Ven 18/5/12, Paulo de Souza Lima ha scritto:
> ...
> > 
> > > But what do you want to do?
> > >
> > 
> > I want to upgrade Mediawiki to MW 1.19.x or, if it's not
> > possible, at least to 1.17.4, and install some useful
> > extensions. This shall not impact any actual function,
> > but will provide us tools to make AOO wiki a lot more
> > usable.
> > 
> 
> I opened a JIRA issue:
> 
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4816
> 
> I think infra has actually no obligation to work
> on this as MW is not officially supported here. I
> even volunteered to help but I actually don't have
> any experience with MW so please be prepared to
> provide a listing of the extensions and other
> things that must be taken into account, just as if
> you were doing the update.
>  
Hi Pedro.

There is a pretty detailed explanation (review) of such things done
already - I'll go back and find the reference before the weekend is out.

//drew

MediaWiki update (was Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams)

[Pedro Giffuni <pf...@apache.org>]

Hello;

--- Ven 18/5/12, Paulo de Souza Lima ha scritto:
...
> 
> > But what do you want to do?
> >
> 
> I want to upgrade Mediawiki to MW 1.19.x or, if it's not
> possible, at least to 1.17.4, and install some useful
> extensions. This shall not impact any actual function,
> but will provide us tools to make AOO wiki a lot more
> usable.
> 

I opened a JIRA issue:

https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4816

I think infra has actually no obligation to work
on this as MW is not officially supported here. I
even volunteered to help but I actually don't have
any experience with MW so please be prepared to
provide a listing of the extensions and other
things that must be taken into account, just as if
you were doing the update.
 
Pedro.

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Paulo de Souza Lima <pa...@varekai.org>]

2012/5/18 Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>

> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 1:40 PM, Paulo de Souza Lima
> <pa...@varekai.org> wrote:
> > 2012/5/18 Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>
> >
>
> <snip>

> But what do you want to do?
>

I want to upgrade Mediawiki to MW 1.19.x or, if it's not possible, at least
to 1.17.4, and install some useful extensions. This shall not impact any
actual function, but will provide us tools to make AOO wiki a lot more
usable.


>
> Even if you had admin access you should not make major changes without
> first proposing them on the list and seeing if anyone objected.
>

Yes, I know that.


>
> I'd recommend that you start with a proposal for what you want to do.
>  Put it in a new [PROPOSAL] thread on ooo-dev.   Once we've discussed
> the proposal, then we can worry about the access controls.
>
>
Like this one?
http://search.gmane.org/?query=%5BPROPOSAL%5D+Wiki+upgrade&group=gmane.comp.apache.incubator.ooo.devel


>
> > 2 - There's a lot of people here in Brazil willing to help AOO, but they
> > can't because they can't read/write/speak English. I can count at least
> > three right now, in our (provisory) mailing list at Escritório Livre.
>
> What do the volunteers want to do?
>
> If a volunteer wants to contribute code, they need to understand C++.
> If they want to contribute to the website design then they need to
> understand HTML/CSS.  And so on.  There are basic per-requisite skills
> needed.  And across all of these there is the need to be able to
> read/write English.   I don't see how this can be avoided.  But there
> is no need to be fluent.  In fact, I bet we could work via Google
> Translations, if we were patient.  But if someone is good with C++ or
> with HTML or other technical skills, then I think we can find a way
> for them to contribute, even with minimal English skills.
>

They can help in spreading AOO, writing articles, helping user support,
lectures, making AOO present in events (soon there will be FISL, and other
large events). All of those things have to be made in Brazil and in
Portuguese. I thought the example we showed yesterday from that guy who
will install AOO in tens of thousands machines for a govenment digital
inclusion project should be enough.

Most of brazilian volunteers have no programming skills, but there are many
other ways they can help. Including some existing ones like UX, wiki, bug
hunting, and so on. Just one example: Miss Fatima Conti is a teacher at
Pará Federal University. She is a respectable figure in Brazilian Open
Source environment. She's more than 70 years old, she's not a programmer,
but many many users read her blog. She used to write articles for our old
BrOffice.org Magazine, but now she's helping to test AOO within her
possibilities. She can do a lot more for AOO, in terms of marketing. But
wait! We have no "marketing" yet. And she doesn't want to join a English
mailing list because she has difficulties with this language. There are a
lot of other examples. Most of people who wish to help are phisicians,
administrators (I am an administrator with some technical skills), lawyers,
teachers, account managers, and so on.


>
> In other words, we need to be able to communicate together as a
> project -- all of us.   But we don't need to have huge discussion
> threads.  In fact Lazy Consensus and JFDI both encourage getting
> things done over having lengthy discussions about non controversial
> proposals.
>

Yes, I do think so.


>
> > 3 - Some of them, even knowing English language, have difficulties to
> reach
> > this list because they feel, let's say, unconfortable in dealing with
> > "famous people" like many of you. =) Apache seems to be a serious place
> > (maybe too serious) for those people. They are affraid to be
> misundestood.
>
> My philosophy with this project was to try to be the first person to
> make every possible mistake.  I looked for things that no was trying,
> and did them, just to show that it could be done.  I didn't care if I
> looked foolish.  I think we need more people willing to take that kind
> of risk.  I think you will find that the project is very "forgiving"
> of English learners.
>

Again, yes.


>
>
> > 4 - Many of us (90% I believe) came from an experience in LibO. There we
> > faced a lot of issues about using brands, names and logos, because there
> is
> > a lot of misunderstanding about who can or can't use them. Allowing
> people
> > not directly involved with the project to use AOO brand/logo within
> certain
> > clear rules could be very usefull and should help people to spread AOO.
> >
>
> We receive and approve trademark and logo requests all the time.  We
> just need a proposal.  I can't guarantee that every proposal will be
> approved, but at least we have a process for reviewing such proposals:
>  http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/trademarks.html


Ok.


-- 
Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 1:40 PM, Paulo de Souza Lima
<pa...@varekai.org> wrote:
> 2012/5/18 Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>
>
> <snip>
>
>
>>
>> Not really.  I'm not presuming to say what others should or should not
>> want to do.  And I'm not going to speculate on what "the project"
>> wants to do, whatever the heck that means.
>>
>> Let's not speculate or deal in hypothetical about how some
>> hypothetical volunteer from Bolivia may or may not want to do for some
>> hypothetical grant.  We don't need an elaborate apparatus to deal with
>> such questions that have not actually occurred here.
>>
>> Instead, let's ask of the here and now:  Is there anything any
>> volunteer on the project wants to do, that they believe that they
>> cannot do?  I'd encourage them to speak up, regardless of country or
>> language.  Let's make a list.
>>
>
> Well, as long as you've opened a channel, I have something to say about it.
>
> 1 - I think, because I am a brand new vollunteer, and I'm not a commiter, I
> can't get admin access to the wiki, wiki servers and wiki database, in
> order to do what I want/plan to do in it. And I don't know who can do it
> for me, because TJ has told me it's possible that there's no vollunteer
> familiar enough with Mediawiki who can do that in infra team (upgrading and
> installing extensions). So my hands are tied. Just like many users, I am
> unable to find quick answers to my questions and unable to try solving this
> problem =)

But what do you want to do?

Even if you had admin access you should not make major changes without
first proposing them on the list and seeing if anyone objected.

I'd recommend that you start with a proposal for what you want to do.
 Put it in a new [PROPOSAL] thread on ooo-dev.   Once we've discussed
the proposal, then we can worry about the access controls.


> 2 - There's a lot of people here in Brazil willing to help AOO, but they
> can't because they can't read/write/speak English. I can count at least
> three right now, in our (provisory) mailing list at Escritório Livre.

What do the volunteers want to do?

If a volunteer wants to contribute code, they need to understand C++.
If they want to contribute to the website design then they need to
understand HTML/CSS.  And so on.  There are basic per-requisite skills
needed.  And across all of these there is the need to be able to
read/write English.   I don't see how this can be avoided.  But there
is no need to be fluent.  In fact, I bet we could work via Google
Translations, if we were patient.  But if someone is good with C++ or
with HTML or other technical skills, then I think we can find a way
for them to contribute, even with minimal English skills.

In other words, we need to be able to communicate together as a
project -- all of us.   But we don't need to have huge discussion
threads.  In fact Lazy Consensus and JFDI both encourage getting
things done over having lengthy discussions about non controversial
proposals.

> 3 - Some of them, even knowing English language, have difficulties to reach
> this list because they feel, let's say, unconfortable in dealing with
> "famous people" like many of you. =) Apache seems to be a serious place
> (maybe too serious) for those people. They are affraid to be misundestood.

My philosophy with this project was to try to be the first person to
make every possible mistake.  I looked for things that no was trying,
and did them, just to show that it could be done.  I didn't care if I
looked foolish.  I think we need more people willing to take that kind
of risk.  I think you will find that the project is very "forgiving"
of English learners.


> 4 - Many of us (90% I believe) came from an experience in LibO. There we
> faced a lot of issues about using brands, names and logos, because there is
> a lot of misunderstanding about who can or can't use them. Allowing people
> not directly involved with the project to use AOO brand/logo within certain
> clear rules could be very usefull and should help people to spread AOO.
>

We receive and approve trademark and logo requests all the time.  We
just need a proposal.  I can't guarantee that every proposal will be
approved, but at least we have a process for reviewing such proposals:
  http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/trademarks.html

-Rob

> Sorry but I can't remember the corresponding word in English for the
> portuguese word "sisudo", so I placed the word "serious". Maybe someone can
> help me because Google Translate couldn't.  =)
>
>
>>
>> IMHO, I believe there is more misunderstanding or even lack of
>> knowledge about The Apache Way than there are cases of it not working
>> for this project.  Remember, we've grown very quickly, and a good
>> portion of the current volunteers did not go through all the learning
>> experiences the initial PMC members had last year.
>>
>
> That's a fact!
>
>
>>
>> So let's make a list of whatever real current problems we think we
>> have.  We might be able to deal with those.  But I doubt there will be
>> much time left over to deal with hypothetical problems.
>>
>
> Well, those I described above are not hypothetical.
>
>
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>
> Thanks for this opening.
>
> --
> Paulo de Souza Lima
> http://almalivre.wordpress.com
> Curitiba - PR
> Linux User #432358
> Ubuntu User #28729

RE: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>]

Yes, that is a meaning for "dour" in English also.

-----Original Message-----
From: Paulo de Souza Lima [mailto:paulo.s.lima@varekai.org] 
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 15:10
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; dennis.hamilton@acm.org
Subject: Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams



2012/5/20 Dennis E. Hamilton <de...@acm.org>


	I was curious about "sisudo" also:
	
	


Great! =)


Also can mean a person who doesn't smile ever.

=D
 

	  Significado de sisudo no Dicionário inFormal online de
	  Português. O que é sisudo: Sério, firme, enfático.
	  Prudente, sensato.
	
	I think you might have been thinking of "dour" although that word is not used much.  Beside serious, firm, and emphatic there is also prudent and sensible.  But perhaps there is something about stern, harsh, obstinate, and unyielding too?
	
	I apologize for my contribution to that impression.
	

	 - Dennis
	
	-----Original Message-----
	From: Paulo de Souza Lima [mailto:paulo.s.lima@varekai.org]
	
	Sent: Friday, May 18, 2012 10:40
	
	To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
	Subject: Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams
	
	[ ... ]
	
	
	3 - Some of them, even knowing English language, have difficulties to reach
	this list because they feel, let's say, unconfortable in dealing with
	"famous people" like many of you. =) Apache seems to be a serious place
	(maybe too serious) for those people. They are affraid to be misundestood.
	
	[ ... ]
	

	Sorry but I can't remember the corresponding word in English for the
	portuguese word "sisudo", so I placed the word "serious". Maybe someone can
	help me because Google Translate couldn't.  =)
	
	
	
	[ ... ]
	
	




-- 

Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com <http://almalivre.wordpress.com/> 
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Paulo de Souza Lima <pa...@varekai.org>]

2012/5/20 Dennis E. Hamilton <de...@acm.org>

> I was curious about "sisudo" also:
>
>
Great! =)


Also can mean a person who doesn't smile ever.

=D


>   Significado de sisudo no Dicionário inFormal online de
>   Português. O que é sisudo: Sério, firme, enfático.
>   Prudente, sensato.
>
> I think you might have been thinking of "dour" although that word is not
> used much.  Beside serious, firm, and emphatic there is also prudent and
> sensible.  But perhaps there is something about stern, harsh, obstinate,
> and unyielding too?
>
> I apologize for my contribution to that impression.
>
>  - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paulo de Souza Lima [mailto:paulo.s.lima@varekai.org]
> Sent: Friday, May 18, 2012 10:40
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages
> and project teams
>
> [ ... ]
>
> 3 - Some of them, even knowing English language, have difficulties to reach
> this list because they feel, let's say, unconfortable in dealing with
> "famous people" like many of you. =) Apache seems to be a serious place
> (maybe too serious) for those people. They are affraid to be misundestood.
> [ ... ]
>
> Sorry but I can't remember the corresponding word in English for the
> portuguese word "sisudo", so I placed the word "serious". Maybe someone can
> help me because Google Translate couldn't.  =)
>
>
> [ ... ]
>
>


-- 
Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

RE: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>]

I was curious about "sisudo" also:

   Significado de sisudo no Dicionário inFormal online de 
   Português. O que é sisudo: Sério, firme, enfático. 
   Prudente, sensato.

I think you might have been thinking of "dour" although that word is not used much.  Beside serious, firm, and emphatic there is also prudent and sensible.  But perhaps there is something about stern, harsh, obstinate, and unyielding too?

I apologize for my contribution to that impression.

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Paulo de Souza Lima [mailto:paulo.s.lima@varekai.org] 
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2012 10:40
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[ ... ]

3 - Some of them, even knowing English language, have difficulties to reach
this list because they feel, let's say, unconfortable in dealing with
"famous people" like many of you. =) Apache seems to be a serious place
(maybe too serious) for those people. They are affraid to be misundestood.
[ ... ]

Sorry but I can't remember the corresponding word in English for the
portuguese word "sisudo", so I placed the word "serious". Maybe someone can
help me because Google Translate couldn't.  =)


[ ... ]

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Paulo de Souza Lima <pa...@varekai.org>]

2012/5/18 Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>

<snip>


>
> Not really.  I'm not presuming to say what others should or should not
> want to do.  And I'm not going to speculate on what "the project"
> wants to do, whatever the heck that means.
>
> Let's not speculate or deal in hypothetical about how some
> hypothetical volunteer from Bolivia may or may not want to do for some
> hypothetical grant.  We don't need an elaborate apparatus to deal with
> such questions that have not actually occurred here.
>
> Instead, let's ask of the here and now:  Is there anything any
> volunteer on the project wants to do, that they believe that they
> cannot do?  I'd encourage them to speak up, regardless of country or
> language.  Let's make a list.
>

Well, as long as you've opened a channel, I have something to say about it.

1 - I think, because I am a brand new vollunteer, and I'm not a commiter, I
can't get admin access to the wiki, wiki servers and wiki database, in
order to do what I want/plan to do in it. And I don't know who can do it
for me, because TJ has told me it's possible that there's no vollunteer
familiar enough with Mediawiki who can do that in infra team (upgrading and
installing extensions). So my hands are tied. Just like many users, I am
unable to find quick answers to my questions and unable to try solving this
problem =)
2 - There's a lot of people here in Brazil willing to help AOO, but they
can't because they can't read/write/speak English. I can count at least
three right now, in our (provisory) mailing list at Escritório Livre.
3 - Some of them, even knowing English language, have difficulties to reach
this list because they feel, let's say, unconfortable in dealing with
"famous people" like many of you. =) Apache seems to be a serious place
(maybe too serious) for those people. They are affraid to be misundestood.
4 - Many of us (90% I believe) came from an experience in LibO. There we
faced a lot of issues about using brands, names and logos, because there is
a lot of misunderstanding about who can or can't use them. Allowing people
not directly involved with the project to use AOO brand/logo within certain
clear rules could be very usefull and should help people to spread AOO.

Sorry but I can't remember the corresponding word in English for the
portuguese word "sisudo", so I placed the word "serious". Maybe someone can
help me because Google Translate couldn't.  =)


>
> IMHO, I believe there is more misunderstanding or even lack of
> knowledge about The Apache Way than there are cases of it not working
> for this project.  Remember, we've grown very quickly, and a good
> portion of the current volunteers did not go through all the learning
> experiences the initial PMC members had last year.
>

That's a fact!


>
> So let's make a list of whatever real current problems we think we
> have.  We might be able to deal with those.  But I doubt there will be
> much time left over to deal with hypothetical problems.
>

Well, those I described above are not hypothetical.


>
> -Rob
>
>
Thanks for this opening.

-- 
Paulo de Souza Lima
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:48 AM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 11:36 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
>> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:20 AM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
>> > On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 11:08 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
>> >> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 10:55 AM, drew jensen
>> >> <dr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > Hi,
>> >> >
>> >> > Recently there has been some discussion on the projects private ML
>> >> > regarding issues about native language groups and how best to support
>> >> > work groups which will by definition be somewhat circumscribed from the
>> >> > whole by virtue of language without losing the cohesion of a single
>> >> > project focus.
>> >> >
>> >> > I invite others pick that up here:
>> >>
>> >> What we do currently:
>> >>
>> >> 1) One big ooo-dev list
>> >>
>> >> 2) Some NL-specific lists.  I don't subscribe to them at all, so
>> >> others would need to say how they are currently being used.
>> >>
>> >> 3) We have some emerging procedures for how volunteers can contribute
>> >> to product and website translations, but this information is scattered
>> >> in old ooo-dev posts and not easy to find.
>> >>
>> >> I wonder whether a good step forward might be to document on our
>> >> project website (http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg) the
>> >> procedures from #3 above.  Then when we have a new volunteer on the
>> >> list we can point them to this information.  This could expand to
>> >> other NL topics such as local marketing/events, trademark usage,  NL
>> >> mailing lists, etc.
>> >
>> > hmm I would say, eventually yes, but if you mean - one giant dev list is
>> > already the decided outcome and so just document it as such, then I'd
>> > say no, not yet.
>> >
>>
>> What part of "What we do currently" was unclear?
>>
>> > I do not think this project is such that one can just say 'the Apache
>> > way' and be done with it - there is about to be a new Apache way me
>> > thinks.
>> >
>> > For instance I wonder how much experience there is in the Apache Way
>> > with a project which will need to look local in certain places around
>> > the world (China, Vietnam, Brasil, Venzuela and Bolivia come to mind
>> > quickly) as without this the local government support goes away and
>> > without that so does the local project - or at least that is my
>> > understanding of the situation in those places. I use that only to say
>> > that IMO this needs some real thought as to how this project is going to
>> > build itself.
>> >
>>
>> If someone wants to create a domestic redistribution of AOO and market
>> it locally, in order to get local government support, then they should
>> do it.  In fact I'd encourage them to do it.  I guarantee that IBM
>> will be making and distributing our own repackaging of AOO.  Why
>> shouldn't others?  Yes, there are basic trademark issues that will
>> need to be observed, but nothing that would prevent someone from
>> marketing AOO outside of the Apache project.
>>
>> For example, SourceForge put up some banner ads to help promote the
>> AOO 3.4 release.  Did they require PMC approval?  No.  Did they need
>> to discuss their plans in detail on ooo-dev?  No.
>>
>> But for the work that is or becomes part of official Apache releases,
>> the work needs to occur here.  The decision making needs to occur
>> here.  The PMC oversight needs to occur here.   Ditto for anyone who
>> claims to speak on behalf of the project, in whatever location or in
>> whatever language.
>>
> Hi Rob
>
> First - I really am slow at times, so please bear with me.
>
> So you are saying I believe that our new project here is not like the
> old, it is not for this project to market the results of the work, that
> is to be left for other organizations - beyond of course promoting the
> project as a way of gathering new contributors.
>

Not really.  I'm not presuming to say what others should or should not
want to do.  And I'm not going to speculate on what "the project"
wants to do, whatever the heck that means.

Let's not speculate or deal in hypothetical about how some
hypothetical volunteer from Bolivia may or may not want to do for some
hypothetical grant.  We don't need an elaborate apparatus to deal with
such questions that have not actually occurred here.

Instead, let's ask of the here and now:  Is there anything any
volunteer on the project wants to do, that they believe that they
cannot do?  I'd encourage them to speak up, regardless of country or
language.  Let's make a list.

IMHO, I believe there is more misunderstanding or even lack of
knowledge about The Apache Way than there are cases of it not working
for this project.  Remember, we've grown very quickly, and a good
portion of the current volunteers did not go through all the learning
experiences the initial PMC members had last year.

So let's make a list of whatever real current problems we think we
have.  We might be able to deal with those.  But I doubt there will be
much time left over to deal with hypothetical problems.

-Rob

> Is that correct?
>
> Thanks,
>
> //drew
>

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>]

On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 11:36 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:20 AM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 11:08 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> >> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 10:55 AM, drew jensen
> >> <dr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > Recently there has been some discussion on the projects private ML
> >> > regarding issues about native language groups and how best to support
> >> > work groups which will by definition be somewhat circumscribed from the
> >> > whole by virtue of language without losing the cohesion of a single
> >> > project focus.
> >> >
> >> > I invite others pick that up here:
> >>
> >> What we do currently:
> >>
> >> 1) One big ooo-dev list
> >>
> >> 2) Some NL-specific lists.  I don't subscribe to them at all, so
> >> others would need to say how they are currently being used.
> >>
> >> 3) We have some emerging procedures for how volunteers can contribute
> >> to product and website translations, but this information is scattered
> >> in old ooo-dev posts and not easy to find.
> >>
> >> I wonder whether a good step forward might be to document on our
> >> project website (http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg) the
> >> procedures from #3 above.  Then when we have a new volunteer on the
> >> list we can point them to this information.  This could expand to
> >> other NL topics such as local marketing/events, trademark usage,  NL
> >> mailing lists, etc.
> >
> > hmm I would say, eventually yes, but if you mean - one giant dev list is
> > already the decided outcome and so just document it as such, then I'd
> > say no, not yet.
> >
> 
> What part of "What we do currently" was unclear?
> 
> > I do not think this project is such that one can just say 'the Apache
> > way' and be done with it - there is about to be a new Apache way me
> > thinks.
> >
> > For instance I wonder how much experience there is in the Apache Way
> > with a project which will need to look local in certain places around
> > the world (China, Vietnam, Brasil, Venzuela and Bolivia come to mind
> > quickly) as without this the local government support goes away and
> > without that so does the local project - or at least that is my
> > understanding of the situation in those places. I use that only to say
> > that IMO this needs some real thought as to how this project is going to
> > build itself.
> >
> 
> If someone wants to create a domestic redistribution of AOO and market
> it locally, in order to get local government support, then they should
> do it.  In fact I'd encourage them to do it.  I guarantee that IBM
> will be making and distributing our own repackaging of AOO.  Why
> shouldn't others?  Yes, there are basic trademark issues that will
> need to be observed, but nothing that would prevent someone from
> marketing AOO outside of the Apache project.
> 
> For example, SourceForge put up some banner ads to help promote the
> AOO 3.4 release.  Did they require PMC approval?  No.  Did they need
> to discuss their plans in detail on ooo-dev?  No.
> 
> But for the work that is or becomes part of official Apache releases,
> the work needs to occur here.  The decision making needs to occur
> here.  The PMC oversight needs to occur here.   Ditto for anyone who
> claims to speak on behalf of the project, in whatever location or in
> whatever language.
> 
Hi Rob

First - I really am slow at times, so please bear with me.

So you are saying I believe that our new project here is not like the
old, it is not for this project to market the results of the work, that
is to be left for other organizations - beyond of course promoting the
project as a way of gathering new contributors.

Is that correct?

Thanks,

//drew

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 11:20 AM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 11:08 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
>> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 10:55 AM, drew jensen
>> <dr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > Recently there has been some discussion on the projects private ML
>> > regarding issues about native language groups and how best to support
>> > work groups which will by definition be somewhat circumscribed from the
>> > whole by virtue of language without losing the cohesion of a single
>> > project focus.
>> >
>> > I invite others pick that up here:
>>
>> What we do currently:
>>
>> 1) One big ooo-dev list
>>
>> 2) Some NL-specific lists.  I don't subscribe to them at all, so
>> others would need to say how they are currently being used.
>>
>> 3) We have some emerging procedures for how volunteers can contribute
>> to product and website translations, but this information is scattered
>> in old ooo-dev posts and not easy to find.
>>
>> I wonder whether a good step forward might be to document on our
>> project website (http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg) the
>> procedures from #3 above.  Then when we have a new volunteer on the
>> list we can point them to this information.  This could expand to
>> other NL topics such as local marketing/events, trademark usage,  NL
>> mailing lists, etc.
>
> hmm I would say, eventually yes, but if you mean - one giant dev list is
> already the decided outcome and so just document it as such, then I'd
> say no, not yet.
>

What part of "What we do currently" was unclear?

> I do not think this project is such that one can just say 'the Apache
> way' and be done with it - there is about to be a new Apache way me
> thinks.
>
> For instance I wonder how much experience there is in the Apache Way
> with a project which will need to look local in certain places around
> the world (China, Vietnam, Brasil, Venzuela and Bolivia come to mind
> quickly) as without this the local government support goes away and
> without that so does the local project - or at least that is my
> understanding of the situation in those places. I use that only to say
> that IMO this needs some real thought as to how this project is going to
> build itself.
>

If someone wants to create a domestic redistribution of AOO and market
it locally, in order to get local government support, then they should
do it.  In fact I'd encourage them to do it.  I guarantee that IBM
will be making and distributing our own repackaging of AOO.  Why
shouldn't others?  Yes, there are basic trademark issues that will
need to be observed, but nothing that would prevent someone from
marketing AOO outside of the Apache project.

For example, SourceForge put up some banner ads to help promote the
AOO 3.4 release.  Did they require PMC approval?  No.  Did they need
to discuss their plans in detail on ooo-dev?  No.

But for the work that is or becomes part of official Apache releases,
the work needs to occur here.  The decision making needs to occur
here.  The PMC oversight needs to occur here.   Ditto for anyone who
claims to speak on behalf of the project, in whatever location or in
whatever language.

-Rob

> //drew
>
>
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>> >
>>
>
>

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>]

On Fri, 2012-05-18 at 11:08 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 10:55 AM, drew jensen
> <dr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Recently there has been some discussion on the projects private ML
> > regarding issues about native language groups and how best to support
> > work groups which will by definition be somewhat circumscribed from the
> > whole by virtue of language without losing the cohesion of a single
> > project focus.
> >
> > I invite others pick that up here:
> 
> What we do currently:
> 
> 1) One big ooo-dev list
> 
> 2) Some NL-specific lists.  I don't subscribe to them at all, so
> others would need to say how they are currently being used.
> 
> 3) We have some emerging procedures for how volunteers can contribute
> to product and website translations, but this information is scattered
> in old ooo-dev posts and not easy to find.
> 
> I wonder whether a good step forward might be to document on our
> project website (http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg) the
> procedures from #3 above.  Then when we have a new volunteer on the
> list we can point them to this information.  This could expand to
> other NL topics such as local marketing/events, trademark usage,  NL
> mailing lists, etc.

hmm I would say, eventually yes, but if you mean - one giant dev list is
already the decided outcome and so just document it as such, then I'd
say no, not yet.

I do not think this project is such that one can just say 'the Apache
way' and be done with it - there is about to be a new Apache way me
thinks.

For instance I wonder how much experience there is in the Apache Way
with a project which will need to look local in certain places around
the world (China, Vietnam, Brasil, Venzuela and Bolivia come to mind
quickly) as without this the local government support goes away and
without that so does the local project - or at least that is my
understanding of the situation in those places. I use that only to say
that IMO this needs some real thought as to how this project is going to
build itself.

//drew


> 
> -Rob
> 
> >
> 

Re: Dealing with a large and diverse project - Native Languages and project teams

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 10:55 AM, drew jensen
<dr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Recently there has been some discussion on the projects private ML
> regarding issues about native language groups and how best to support
> work groups which will by definition be somewhat circumscribed from the
> whole by virtue of language without losing the cohesion of a single
> project focus.
>
> I invite others pick that up here:

What we do currently:

1) One big ooo-dev list

2) Some NL-specific lists.  I don't subscribe to them at all, so
others would need to say how they are currently being used.

3) We have some emerging procedures for how volunteers can contribute
to product and website translations, but this information is scattered
in old ooo-dev posts and not easy to find.

I wonder whether a good step forward might be to document on our
project website (http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg) the
procedures from #3 above.  Then when we have a new volunteer on the
list we can point them to this information.  This could expand to
other NL topics such as local marketing/events, trademark usage,  NL
mailing lists, etc.

-Rob

>