"Continuations" vs. "Stateful Execuation" (was "Preserving Rhino State")

[Jason Foster <ja...@uwaterloo.ca>]

> I looked on the Rhino code, and also spoke with Christopher Oliver
> (Rhino serialization) and Norris Boyd (Rhino main developer) about
> continuations support in Rhino.

You *have* been busy :)

<snip content="full continuations are out"/>

While I agree with your conclusions, I have to admit that I'm now starting 
to get a little confused about the key points of the flow language.  Going 
from Stefano's recent posting to the cocoon-users group...

> The flowmap syntax, unlike the sitemap where the XML syntax is a perfect
> choice for its intrinsic declarativity, will use a
> programming-language-like syntax since a flow is much more similar to a
> program and will normally be written and managed by programmers which
> are used to more 'procedural' approaches.
>
> The flowmap will also be transparently stateful: writing a web
> application that creates the sum of two numbers will be as easy as doing
>
>  var a = getA();
>  var b = getB();
>  c = a + b;
>  show(c);
>
> the underlying implementation will allow Cocoon to know 'where you left
> out' the execution of your program and restart from there.

Transparently stateful is one thing.  Full support for continuations is 
another.

 From the Rhino code links already mentioned in this thread, it should be 
fairly straightforward to "allow Cocoon to know 'where you left out' the 
execution of your program and restart from there."  This isn't the same as 
continuations, but it does accomplish what Stefano describes.

I guess what I'm wondering is whether, for someone trained in standard 
procedural programming, full support for continuations really offers all 
that much?  Is the goal to change how these developers approach their 
problems, or is it to allow them to use the same languages they already 
know with transparent support for "stateful execution"?

Near as I can tell, the really big thing, other than transparent states, 
will be the abilities to call a Cocoon pipeline for output and to 
construct pipelines on the fly.  <-- deliberate Functionality Syndrome 
provocation, but let's be honest... it *will* happen regardless of whether 
we use Rhino or FlowScript.

I'm not trying to take anything away from continuation-style programming, 
Scheme, or any other language.  I'd actually like to learn about this 
stuff.  What I'm wondering is whether we are pursuing purity at the 
expense of maintainability and comprehension?

Regardless, I can't wait to try out the end result.  Take that WebObjects!

Jason Foster


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Re: "Continuations" vs. "Stateful Execuation" (was "Preserving Rhino State")

[Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>]

Jason Foster wrote:

> What I'm wondering is whether we are pursuing purity at the
> expense of maintainability and comprehension?

All I know is that I don't have enough info to judge this and I would
like to see results before stating anything.

Ovidiu is the master driver on this direction and I fully trust his
judgement. Nevertheless, I'll be picky as hell (count on it!) about what
you describe above (read: really needed functionality vs. FS!), but I
will only when Ovidiu is ready to show something that works.

Before that, I'll just be watching over its progress with much delight,
trying to learn as much as I can before stating my judgement.

Regarding my [status] message on cocoon-users: all I wanted was to show
the users what we are working on and give the a 'flavor' of what Cocoon
will be in the future... It was *on purpose* simple and rather
incomplete, I just wanted to catch their attention.

And of course, nothing I ever write is carved in stone. :)

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
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