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Posted to dev@turbine.apache.org by Henning Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de> on 2003/06/19 15:12:52 UTC
RE: Decimal Number support
I hope that noone will ever regret to get involved with turbine
development. :-)
How can you help? Well, easiest thing would be to ask yourself "which
part of Turbine hurts me most". I'm sure that every turbine developer
would come up with a different part. :-)
If you're somehow seasoned with the maven development tool, one of the
things that we really could need for the 2.3 release would be a simple,
skeletal build environment with some preset configuration files for
turbine, log4j and torque, and a simple way to generate a project.xml
file for "your new turbine project". The current tdk is simply to
cumbersome and aged to really work well. I admire the work that Martin
did to get a 2.2 TDK out but with maven around we might get a simpler,
better working and easier to understand development environment from
maven and a few tools.
So this would be a really cool place to work on. I can send you some
demo apps that I threw together for demonstrating various aspects of
Turbine (you'll find links in the -dev archive, else I can send them to
you) and you would have to put together some build scripts.
What platform do you normally work on? Windows or Unix/Linux? As far as
I can see, we could really need some more people testing the HEAD on
Windows.
Regards
Henning
On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 22:19, Bill wrote:
> Ok, I'm gonna regret this...but how can I help at this point? :)
>
> I dont have a ton of time, but what time I do have, I'd be more than
> willing to give.
>
> I'm probably not nearly as savvy a java coder as the three of you, but
> consider me at your service if I can speed things along.
>
> -b
>
> On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 15:05, Quinton McCombs wrote:
> > I don't recall that discussion although I have only been active on the
> > lists for about 8 - 9 months. I do know that the development of Turbine
> > is not only for support releases. Turbine 2.3 has been the continuation
> > of clean up and bug fixes. There have been very few new features added.
> >
> > Turbine 2.4 should should add Avalonization and a backport pipeline
> > functionality from Turbine 3. Both of these changes are geared to give
> > the user much greater flexibility in extending the product while at the
> > same time reducing the interdependencies between the various services.
> >
> > With the release of 2.4, I think that you will see that it is much
> > easier to change views and persistence layers. You will also be able to
> > use components from other projects in Turbine. For example, if you want
> > to use the quartz scheduler, Hibernate, or a few components from the
> > Plexus/Summit project, they should work without a problem.
> >
> > Turbine is not dead. It is moving rather slowly though. Henning has
> > been committing 90% of all of the changes lately. I have been unable to
> > work on the project for a little over a month now. Eric mainly focuses
> > of his new configuration stuff and unit testing. We are the only three
> > active developers on the project.
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> > Quinton McCombs
> > NequalsOne - HealthCare marketing tools
> > mailto:qmccombs@NequalsOne.com
> > http://www.NequalsOne.com
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bill [mailto:bhalpin@collaborativefusion.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 1:52 PM
> > > To: Quinton McCombs
> > > Subject: RE: Decimal Number support
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm curious...I made that exact point when the original
> > > announcement was made. The response from the list was no one
> > > is using or interested in using FM, and that all future
> > > releases were merely support releases. If Turbine
> > > development is only support releases at this point and we're
> > > moving toward Avalon, it doesnt make sense to add features in my mind.
> > >
> > > However, I have been stuck with a lot of work on the Business
> > > side of things in my company and have not been as attentive
> > > to the list as in the past. Did I miss a change, is this
> > > project now 'alive' again?
> > >
> > > -b
> > >
> > > On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 14:31, Quinton McCombs wrote:
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Bill [mailto:bhalpin@collaborativefusion.com]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 8:15 AM
> > > > > To: Henning P. Schmiedehausen
> > > > > Cc: turbine-user
> > > > > Subject: Re: Decimal Number support
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Henning
> > > > >
> > > > > I think working on Freemarker support would be a waste of the
> > > > > developers valuable time.
> > > >
> > > > It would not be a waste of time is people are interested in
> > > using it.
> > > >
> > > > > However, divorcing Turbine from
> > > > > Velocity to allow more flexibility not only seems like a good
> > > > > idea, it seems absolutely necessary if the I understand the
> > > > > path to Avalonization.
> > > >
> > > > I agree with you that the flexibility would be a very good thing.
> > > >
> > > > Our view architecture is really not very plugable. The problem is
> > > > that once you start writing your actions and screen classes which
> > > > accept RunData and Context as parameters, you are become
> > > tied to the
> > > > view implementation. This was very much a shortcoming of the core
> > > > design of Turbine.
> > > >
> > > > Hennings idea to create a proxy class to represent the context type
> > > > object of the underlying view is indeed a good way to solve this
> > > > problem. It would require deprecating the methods that everyone
> > > > normally overrides in the screen and action classes. The
> > > replacement
> > > > would be virtually the same interface replacing Context
> > > with the new
> > > > class.
> > > >
> > > > Even if we do not decide to support FreeMarker, I think
> > > that it would
> > > > be in our best interests to implement the proxy class for
> > > the context.
> > > > Right now, if your view is JSP and you want to switch to
> > > Velocity or
> > > > visa-versa, you must modify all of your action and screen classes.
> > > > Not fun.
> > > >
> > > > > -b
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 06:41, Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
> > > > > > Jonathan Revusky <jo...@revusky.com> writes:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
> > > > > > >> Hi,
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> is anyone of you needing or missing FreeMarker Support
> > > > > in Turbine
> > > > > > >> 2.2?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >I believe the question should maybe be rephrased:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Is any one of you needing or missing decimal number support in
> > > > > > >Velocity?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ok,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Folks, is anyone of you missing <insert your feature
> > > here that FM
> > > > > > supports and Velocity does not> from the View portion
> > > of Turbine?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You will find a feature complete list on
> > > > > http://www.freemarker.org for
> > > > > > FreeMarker and on http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
> > > for Velocity.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If yes, would you consider a switch from Velocity to
> > > FreeMarker as
> > > > > > View for Turbine or would you get a pull tool to support
> > > > > this feature?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The reason for this (and Jonathans' response): On the
> > > > > Velocity lists,
> > > > > > there has been some rumbling about the current
> > > development state
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > Velocity and talking about alternatives to it. As we
> > > (Turbine) did
> > > > > > remove the (quite aged and not actively maintained)
> > > > > FreeMarker support
> > > > > > post Turbine-2.2, there have been some accusations of doing this
> > > > > > because of "political reasons". As I was not really
> > > > > involved in the FM
> > > > > > stuff or its removal, I'm trying to collect opinions from
> > > > > the Turbine
> > > > > > users about getting FM support back into Turbine. However, if
> > > > > > noone
> > > > > > wants to use it, it wouldn't make much sense and the change
> > > > > itself is
> > > > > > (IMHO) quite a major one to support FM really good.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jonathan, some technical information (which you as a
> > > > > non-Turbine guy
> > > > > > might not have seen yet): Unfortunately the
> > > o.a.velocity.Context
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > buried pretty deep in the Turbine code (this is legacy of
> > > > > the original
> > > > > > turbine developers). So we will have to replace this in every
> > > > > > place
> > > > > > with an Adapter class with plugs either onto the Velocity
> > > > > Context or a
> > > > > > similar class in every other view solution (FreeMarker, WebMacro
> > > > > > etc.).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Doing so, it would be necessary for all of our users to
> > > change the
> > > > > > imports in their self-written classes (Action, Screen),
> > > because the
> > > > > > Context is part of the signature of the methods which are
> > > > > overloaded
> > > > > > by user classes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If we don't do this but just 'bolt FM support on' by using
> > > > > different
> > > > > > classes, there wouldn't be much won, because people would still
> > > > > > use
> > > > > > VelocityScreen, VelocityPage etc. just as in all the
> > > example code
> > > > > > around and the FM code would start to rot (again). I don't
> > > > > want this,
> > > > > > because it wouldn't buy much for the Turbine users. So we
> > > > > would need
> > > > > > some major core changes to allow developers to simply
> > > switch views
> > > > > > without having to rewrite all of their classes later.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If we want to have engine-independent view support which is
> > > > > equal for
> > > > > > all templating solutions (and not heavily Velocity based as the
> > > > > > current view is, which is one of the reasons why noone
> > > > > really uses FM
> > > > > > and/or WebMacro with Turbine and the code started to
> > > rot), we will
> > > > > > have to make this (major) change. This is something that
> > > > > affects all
> > > > > > of our users and we will listen to them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Is anybody missing any of those features?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please send opinions to this list. Turbine 2.3 is pretty much in
> > > > > > feature-freeze state and I want to put out an RC until the
> > > > > end of next
> > > > > > week (Colin, don't worry, your Intake changes will be in
> > > > > :-) ) and I'm
> > > > > > already starting to collect ideas for 2.4-dev. However,
> > > > > moving to the
> > > > > > pipeline and towards Avalon will (for me) stay top priority.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > Henning
> > > > > --
> > > > > Bill <bh...@collaborativefusion.com>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > -
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > turbine-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > turbine-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: turbine-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > turbine-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > > --
> > > Bill <bh...@collaborativefusion.com>
> > >
> > >
> > >
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH hps@intermeta.de
Am Schwabachgrund 22 Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0 info@intermeta.de
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: turbine-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: turbine-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Decimal Number support
Posted by "Henning P. Schmiedehausen" <hp...@intermeta.de>.
"Colin Chalmers" <co...@maxware.nl> writes:
>"We are the only three active developers on the project."
No, Bill sent the message as a personal mail to Eric, Quinton and me and
I took the liberty to Cc my answer to turbine-dev so that all the other
people here get some coverage.
Regards
Henning
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Henning Schmiedehausen [mailto:hps@intermeta.de]
>Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 3:13 PM
>To: Bill
>Cc: Quinton McCombs; Eric Pugh; Turbine Developers List
>Subject: RE: Decimal Number support
>I hope that noone will ever regret to get involved with turbine
>development. :-)
>How can you help? Well, easiest thing would be to ask yourself "which
>part of Turbine hurts me most". I'm sure that every turbine developer
>would come up with a different part. :-)
>If you're somehow seasoned with the maven development tool, one of the
>things that we really could need for the 2.3 release would be a simple,
>skeletal build environment with some preset configuration files for
>turbine, log4j and torque, and a simple way to generate a project.xml
>file for "your new turbine project". The current tdk is simply to
>cumbersome and aged to really work well. I admire the work that Martin
>did to get a 2.2 TDK out but with maven around we might get a simpler,
>better working and easier to understand development environment from
>maven and a few tools.
>So this would be a really cool place to work on. I can send you some
>demo apps that I threw together for demonstrating various aspects of
>Turbine (you'll find links in the -dev archive, else I can send them to
>you) and you would have to put together some build scripts.
>What platform do you normally work on? Windows or Unix/Linux? As far as
>I can see, we could really need some more people testing the HEAD on
>Windows.
> Regards
> Henning
>On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 22:19, Bill wrote:
>> Ok, I'm gonna regret this...but how can I help at this point? :)
>>
>> I dont have a ton of time, but what time I do have, I'd be more than
>> willing to give.
>>
>> I'm probably not nearly as savvy a java coder as the three of you, but
>> consider me at your service if I can speed things along.
>>
>> -b
>>
>> On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 15:05, Quinton McCombs wrote:
>> > I don't recall that discussion although I have only been active on the
>> > lists for about 8 - 9 months. I do know that the development of Turbine
>> > is not only for support releases. Turbine 2.3 has been the continuation
>> > of clean up and bug fixes. There have been very few new features added.
>> >
>> > Turbine 2.4 should should add Avalonization and a backport pipeline
>> > functionality from Turbine 3. Both of these changes are geared to give
>> > the user much greater flexibility in extending the product while at the
>> > same time reducing the interdependencies between the various services.
>> >
>> > With the release of 2.4, I think that you will see that it is much
>> > easier to change views and persistence layers. You will also be able to
>> > use components from other projects in Turbine. For example, if you want
>> > to use the quartz scheduler, Hibernate, or a few components from the
>> > Plexus/Summit project, they should work without a problem.
>> >
>> > Turbine is not dead. It is moving rather slowly though. Henning has
>> > been committing 90% of all of the changes lately. I have been unable to
>> > work on the project for a little over a month now. Eric mainly focuses
>> > of his new configuration stuff and unit testing. We are the only three
>> > active developers on the project.
>> >
>> >
>> > --------------------------------------------
>> > Quinton McCombs
>> > NequalsOne - HealthCare marketing tools
>> > mailto:qmccombs@NequalsOne.com
>> > http://www.NequalsOne.com
>> >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: Bill [mailto:bhalpin@collaborativefusion.com]
>> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 1:52 PM
>> > > To: Quinton McCombs
>> > > Subject: RE: Decimal Number support
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I'm curious...I made that exact point when the original
>> > > announcement was made. The response from the list was no one
>> > > is using or interested in using FM, and that all future
>> > > releases were merely support releases. If Turbine
>> > > development is only support releases at this point and we're
>> > > moving toward Avalon, it doesnt make sense to add features in my mind.
>> > >
>> > > However, I have been stuck with a lot of work on the Business
>> > > side of things in my company and have not been as attentive
>> > > to the list as in the past. Did I miss a change, is this
>> > > project now 'alive' again?
>> > >
>> > > -b
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 14:31, Quinton McCombs wrote:
>> > > > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > > From: Bill [mailto:bhalpin@collaborativefusion.com]
>> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 8:15 AM
>> > > > > To: Henning P. Schmiedehausen
>> > > > > Cc: turbine-user
>> > > > > Subject: Re: Decimal Number support
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Henning
>> > > > >
>> > > > > I think working on Freemarker support would be a waste of the
>> > > > > developers valuable time.
>> > > >
>> > > > It would not be a waste of time is people are interested in
>> > > using it.
>> > > >
>> > > > > However, divorcing Turbine from
>> > > > > Velocity to allow more flexibility not only seems like a good
>> > > > > idea, it seems absolutely necessary if the I understand the
>> > > > > path to Avalonization.
>> > > >
>> > > > I agree with you that the flexibility would be a very good thing.
>> > > >
>> > > > Our view architecture is really not very plugable. The problem is
>> > > > that once you start writing your actions and screen classes which
>> > > > accept RunData and Context as parameters, you are become
>> > > tied to the
>> > > > view implementation. This was very much a shortcoming of the core
>> > > > design of Turbine.
>> > > >
>> > > > Hennings idea to create a proxy class to represent the context type
>> > > > object of the underlying view is indeed a good way to solve this
>> > > > problem. It would require deprecating the methods that everyone
>> > > > normally overrides in the screen and action classes. The
>> > > replacement
>> > > > would be virtually the same interface replacing Context
>> > > with the new
>> > > > class.
>> > > >
>> > > > Even if we do not decide to support FreeMarker, I think
>> > > that it would
>> > > > be in our best interests to implement the proxy class for
>> > > the context.
>> > > > Right now, if your view is JSP and you want to switch to
>> > > Velocity or
>> > > > visa-versa, you must modify all of your action and screen classes.
>> > > > Not fun.
>> > > >
>> > > > > -b
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 06:41, Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
>> > > > > > Jonathan Revusky <jo...@revusky.com> writes:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > >Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
>> > > > > > >> Hi,
>> > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > >> is anyone of you needing or missing FreeMarker Support
>> > > > > in Turbine
>> > > > > > >> 2.2?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > >I believe the question should maybe be rephrased:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > >Is any one of you needing or missing decimal number support in
>> > > > > > >Velocity?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Ok,
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Folks, is anyone of you missing <insert your feature
>> > > here that FM
>> > > > > > supports and Velocity does not> from the View portion
>> > > of Turbine?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > You will find a feature complete list on
>> > > > > http://www.freemarker.org for
>> > > > > > FreeMarker and on http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
>> > > for Velocity.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > If yes, would you consider a switch from Velocity to
>> > > FreeMarker as
>> > > > > > View for Turbine or would you get a pull tool to support
>> > > > > this feature?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > The reason for this (and Jonathans' response): On the
>> > > > > Velocity lists,
>> > > > > > there has been some rumbling about the current
>> > > development state
>> > > > > > of
>> > > > > > Velocity and talking about alternatives to it. As we
>> > > (Turbine) did
>> > > > > > remove the (quite aged and not actively maintained)
>> > > > > FreeMarker support
>> > > > > > post Turbine-2.2, there have been some accusations of doing this
>> > > > > > because of "political reasons". As I was not really
>> > > > > involved in the FM
>> > > > > > stuff or its removal, I'm trying to collect opinions from
>> > > > > the Turbine
>> > > > > > users about getting FM support back into Turbine. However, if
>> > > > > > noone
>> > > > > > wants to use it, it wouldn't make much sense and the change
>> > > > > itself is
>> > > > > > (IMHO) quite a major one to support FM really good.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Jonathan, some technical information (which you as a
>> > > > > non-Turbine guy
>> > > > > > might not have seen yet): Unfortunately the
>> > > o.a.velocity.Context
>> > > > > > is
>> > > > > > buried pretty deep in the Turbine code (this is legacy of
>> > > > > the original
>> > > > > > turbine developers). So we will have to replace this in every
>> > > > > > place
>> > > > > > with an Adapter class with plugs either onto the Velocity
>> > > > > Context or a
>> > > > > > similar class in every other view solution (FreeMarker, WebMacro
>> > > > > > etc.).
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Doing so, it would be necessary for all of our users to
>> > > change the
>> > > > > > imports in their self-written classes (Action, Screen),
>> > > because the
>> > > > > > Context is part of the signature of the methods which are
>> > > > > overloaded
>> > > > > > by user classes.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > If we don't do this but just 'bolt FM support on' by using
>> > > > > different
>> > > > > > classes, there wouldn't be much won, because people would still
>> > > > > > use
>> > > > > > VelocityScreen, VelocityPage etc. just as in all the
>> > > example code
>> > > > > > around and the FM code would start to rot (again). I don't
>> > > > > want this,
>> > > > > > because it wouldn't buy much for the Turbine users. So we
>> > > > > would need
>> > > > > > some major core changes to allow developers to simply
>> > > switch views
>> > > > > > without having to rewrite all of their classes later.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > If we want to have engine-independent view support which is
>> > > > > equal for
>> > > > > > all templating solutions (and not heavily Velocity based as the
>> > > > > > current view is, which is one of the reasons why noone
>> > > > > really uses FM
>> > > > > > and/or WebMacro with Turbine and the code started to
>> > > rot), we will
>> > > > > > have to make this (major) change. This is something that
>> > > > > affects all
>> > > > > > of our users and we will listen to them.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > >Is anybody missing any of those features?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Please send opinions to this list. Turbine 2.3 is pretty much in
>> > > > > > feature-freeze state and I want to put out an RC until the
>> > > > > end of next
>> > > > > > week (Colin, don't worry, your Intake changes will be in
>> > > > > :-) ) and I'm
>> > > > > > already starting to collect ideas for 2.4-dev. However,
>> > > > > moving to the
>> > > > > > pipeline and towards Avalon will (for me) stay top priority.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Regards
>> > > > > > Henning
>> > > > > --
>> > > > > Bill <bh...@collaborativefusion.com>
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > > -
>> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>> > > turbine-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
>> > > turbine-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: turbine-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
>> > > turbine-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>> > > --
>> > > Bill <bh...@collaborativefusion.com>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>--
>Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
>INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH hps@intermeta.de
>Am Schwabachgrund 22 Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0 info@intermeta.de
>D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: turbine-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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RE: Decimal Number support
Posted by Quinton McCombs <qm...@nequalsone.com>.
> On Thu, 2003-06-19 at 15:34, Bill wrote:
> > Henning
> >
> > Not really strong with maven yet, but I'll give it all I
> got if thats
> > where you need help. Why dont you send me the stuff you
> mentioned and
> > I'll go from there. I work exclusively on linux, however I am not
> > above doing windows work if it'll benefit this project.
> >
> > Might take me a day or two to familiarize myself with the developer
> > links and processes, I've never really worked on an OS
> project before.
> >
> > Also, wanted to ask you....way back when, there was
> discussion on the
> > list as to the future of this project. I kinda got the impression
> > that work on Turbine was moving toward focusing on making Turbine a
> > services component for Avalon. Was I entirely mistaken on
> this? The
> > thread kinda jumped around so I was never really sure what
> the outcome
> > of it was.
> >
This is what we are calling Avalonization.
> > -b
> >
> > On Thu, 2003-06-19 at 09:12, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
> > > I hope that noone will ever regret to get involved with turbine
> > > development. :-)
> > >
> > > How can you help? Well, easiest thing would be to ask yourself
> > > "which part of Turbine hurts me most". I'm sure that
> every turbine
> > > developer would come up with a different part. :-)
> > >
> > > If you're somehow seasoned with the maven development
> tool, one of
> > > the things that we really could need for the 2.3 release
> would be a
> > > simple, skeletal build environment with some preset configuration
> > > files for turbine, log4j and torque, and a simple way to
> generate a
> > > project.xml file for "your new turbine project". The
> current tdk is
> > > simply to cumbersome and aged to really work well. I
> admire the work
> > > that Martin did to get a 2.2 TDK out but with maven
> around we might
> > > get a simpler, better working and easier to understand
> development
> > > environment from maven and a few tools.
> > >
> > > So this would be a really cool place to work on. I can
> send you some
> > > demo apps that I threw together for demonstrating various
> aspects of
> > > Turbine (you'll find links in the -dev archive, else I
> can send them
> > > to
> > > you) and you would have to put together some build scripts.
> > >
> > > What platform do you normally work on? Windows or
> Unix/Linux? As far
> > > as I can see, we could really need some more people
> testing the HEAD
> > > on Windows.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Henning
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 22:19, Bill wrote:
> > > > Ok, I'm gonna regret this...but how can I help at this point? :)
> > > >
> > > > I dont have a ton of time, but what time I do have, I'd be more
> > > > than willing to give.
> > > >
> > > > I'm probably not nearly as savvy a java coder as the
> three of you,
> > > > but consider me at your service if I can speed things along.
> > > >
> > > > -b
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 15:05, Quinton McCombs wrote:
> > > > > I don't recall that discussion although I have only
> been active
> > > > > on the lists for about 8 - 9 months. I do know that the
> > > > > development of Turbine is not only for support releases.
> > > > > Turbine 2.3 has been the continuation of clean up and
> bug fixes.
> > > > > There have been very few new features added.
> > > > >
> > > > > Turbine 2.4 should should add Avalonization and a backport
> > > > > pipeline functionality from Turbine 3. Both of these changes
> > > > > are geared to give the user much greater flexibility in
> > > > > extending the product while at the same time reducing the
> > > > > interdependencies between the various services.
> > > > >
> > > > > With the release of 2.4, I think that you will see that it is
> > > > > much easier to change views and persistence layers. You will
> > > > > also be able to use components from other projects in
> Turbine.
> > > > > For example, if you want to use the quartz scheduler,
> Hibernate,
> > > > > or a few components from the Plexus/Summit project,
> they should
> > > > > work without a problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > Turbine is not dead. It is moving rather slowly though.
> > > > > Henning has been committing 90% of all of the changes
> lately. I
> > > > > have been unable to work on the project for a little over a
> > > > > month now. Eric mainly focuses of his new
> configuration stuff
> > > > > and unit testing. We are the only three active developers on
> > > > > the project.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------------------------------
> > > > > Quinton McCombs
> > > > > NequalsOne - HealthCare marketing tools
> > > > > mailto:qmccombs@NequalsOne.com http://www.NequalsOne.com
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Bill [mailto:bhalpin@collaborativefusion.com]
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 1:52 PM
> > > > > > To: Quinton McCombs
> > > > > > Subject: RE: Decimal Number support
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm curious...I made that exact point when the original
> > > > > > announcement was made. The response from the list
> was no one
> > > > > > is using or interested in using FM, and that all future
> > > > > > releases were merely support releases. If Turbine
> > > > > > development is only support releases at this point
> and we're
> > > > > > moving toward Avalon, it doesnt make sense to add
> features in my mind.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, I have been stuck with a lot of work on
> the Business
> > > > > > side of things in my company and have not been as attentive
> > > > > > to the list as in the past. Did I miss a change, is this
> > > > > > project now 'alive' again?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -b
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 14:31, Quinton McCombs wrote:
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > From: Bill [mailto:bhalpin@collaborativefusion.com]
> > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 8:15 AM
> > > > > > > > To: Henning P. Schmiedehausen
> > > > > > > > Cc: turbine-user
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: Decimal Number support
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Henning
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think working on Freemarker support would be
> a waste of
> > > > > > > > the developers valuable time.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It would not be a waste of time is people are
> interested in
> > > > > > using it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > However, divorcing Turbine from
> > > > > > > > Velocity to allow more flexibility not only
> seems like a
> > > > > > > > good
> > > > > > > > idea, it seems absolutely necessary if the I
> understand the
> > > > > > > > path to Avalonization.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I agree with you that the flexibility would be a
> very good
> > > > > > > thing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Our view architecture is really not very plugable. The
> > > > > > > problem is
> > > > > > > that once you start writing your actions and
> screen classes which
> > > > > > > accept RunData and Context as parameters, you are become
> > > > > > tied to the
> > > > > > > view implementation. This was very much a shortcoming of
> > > > > > > the core
> > > > > > > design of Turbine.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hennings idea to create a proxy class to represent the
> > > > > > > context type
> > > > > > > object of the underlying view is indeed a good
> way to solve this
> > > > > > > problem. It would require deprecating the
> methods that everyone
> > > > > > > normally overrides in the screen and action classes. The
> > > > > > replacement
> > > > > > > would be virtually the same interface replacing Context
> > > > > > with the new
> > > > > > > class.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Even if we do not decide to support FreeMarker, I think
> > > > > > that it would
> > > > > > > be in our best interests to implement the proxy class for
> > > > > > the context.
> > > > > > > Right now, if your view is JSP and you want to switch to
> > > > > > Velocity or
> > > > > > > visa-versa, you must modify all of your action and screen
> > > > > > > classes.
> > > > > > > Not fun.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -b
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 06:41, Henning P. Schmiedehausen
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Jonathan Revusky <jo...@revusky.com> writes:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> Hi,
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> is anyone of you needing or missing FreeMarker
> > > > > > > > > >> Support
> > > > > > > > in Turbine
> > > > > > > > > >> 2.2?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >I believe the question should maybe be rephrased:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Is any one of you needing or missing decimal number
> > > > > > > > > >support in Velocity?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Ok,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Folks, is anyone of you missing <insert your feature
> > > > > > here that FM
> > > > > > > > > supports and Velocity does not> from the View portion
> > > > > > of Turbine?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You will find a feature complete list on
> > > > > > > > http://www.freemarker.org for
> > > > > > > > > FreeMarker and on http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
> > > > > > for Velocity.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If yes, would you consider a switch from Velocity to
> > > > > > FreeMarker as
> > > > > > > > > View for Turbine or would you get a pull tool
> to support
> > > > > > > > this feature?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The reason for this (and Jonathans' response): On the
> > > > > > > > Velocity lists,
> > > > > > > > > there has been some rumbling about the current
> > > > > > development state
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > Velocity and talking about alternatives to it. As we
> > > > > > (Turbine) did
> > > > > > > > > remove the (quite aged and not actively maintained)
> > > > > > > > FreeMarker support
> > > > > > > > > post Turbine-2.2, there have been some accusations of
> > > > > > > > > doing this because of "political reasons". As
> I was not
> > > > > > > > > really
> > > > > > > > involved in the FM
> > > > > > > > > stuff or its removal, I'm trying to collect opinions
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > the Turbine
> > > > > > > > > users about getting FM support back into Turbine.
> > > > > > > > > However, if
> > > > > > > > > noone
> > > > > > > > > wants to use it, it wouldn't make much sense
> and the change
> > > > > > > > itself is
> > > > > > > > > (IMHO) quite a major one to support FM really good.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Jonathan, some technical information (which you as a
> > > > > > > > non-Turbine guy
> > > > > > > > > might not have seen yet): Unfortunately the
> > > > > > o.a.velocity.Context
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > buried pretty deep in the Turbine code (this
> is legacy
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > the original
> > > > > > > > > turbine developers). So we will have to
> replace this in
> > > > > > > > > every
> > > > > > > > > place
> > > > > > > > > with an Adapter class with plugs either onto
> the Velocity
> > > > > > > > Context or a
> > > > > > > > > similar class in every other view solution
> (FreeMarker,
> > > > > > > > > WebMacro etc.).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Doing so, it would be necessary for all of
> our users to
> > > > > > change the
> > > > > > > > > imports in their self-written classes
> (Action, Screen),
> > > > > > because the
> > > > > > > > > Context is part of the signature of the methods which
> > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > overloaded
> > > > > > > > > by user classes.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If we don't do this but just 'bolt FM support on' by
> > > > > > > > > using
> > > > > > > > different
> > > > > > > > > classes, there wouldn't be much won, because people
> > > > > > > > > would still
> > > > > > > > > use
> > > > > > > > > VelocityScreen, VelocityPage etc. just as in all the
> > > > > > example code
> > > > > > > > > around and the FM code would start to rot (again). I
> > > > > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > want this,
> > > > > > > > > because it wouldn't buy much for the Turbine
> users. So
> > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > would need
> > > > > > > > > some major core changes to allow developers to simply
> > > > > > switch views
> > > > > > > > > without having to rewrite all of their classes later.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If we want to have engine-independent view
> support which
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > equal for
> > > > > > > > > all templating solutions (and not heavily
> Velocity based
> > > > > > > > > as the current view is, which is one of the
> reasons why
> > > > > > > > > noone
> > > > > > > > really uses FM
> > > > > > > > > and/or WebMacro with Turbine and the code started to
> > > > > > rot), we will
> > > > > > > > > have to make this (major) change. This is
> something that
> > > > > > > > affects all
> > > > > > > > > of our users and we will listen to them.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Is anybody missing any of those features?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Please send opinions to this list. Turbine
> 2.3 is pretty
> > > > > > > > > much in feature-freeze state and I want to
> put out an RC
> > > > > > > > > until the
> > > > > > > > end of next
> > > > > > > > > week (Colin, don't worry, your Intake changes
> will be in
> > > > > > > > :-) ) and I'm
> > > > > > > > > already starting to collect ideas for
> 2.4-dev. However,
> > > > > > > > moving to the
> > > > > > > > > pipeline and towards Avalon will (for me) stay top
> > > > > > > > > priority.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > > > > Henning
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Bill <bh...@collaborativefusion.com>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > ------
> > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > > > turbine-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > > > turbine-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > -------
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > > > > turbine-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > > > turbine-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Bill <bh...@collaborativefusion.com>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> --
> Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen --
> Geschaeftsfuehrer
> INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH hps@intermeta.de
>
> Am Schwabachgrund 22 Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0 info@intermeta.de
> D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20
>
>
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RE: Decimal Number support
Posted by Henning Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de>.
Hi,
could you please send your messages to the
turbine-dev@jakarta.apache.org mailing list, so that all of the
developers get the messages? Thanks. If you're not subscribed there, you
can find instructions on the turbine website on how to join the
developers list. This is an open mailinglist to everyone that's
interested.
Regards
Henning
On Thu, 2003-06-19 at 15:34, Bill wrote:
> Henning
>
> Not really strong with maven yet, but I'll give it all I got if thats
> where you need help. Why dont you send me the stuff you mentioned and
> I'll go from there. I work exclusively on linux, however I am not above
> doing windows work if it'll benefit this project.
>
> Might take me a day or two to familiarize myself with the developer
> links and processes, I've never really worked on an OS project before.
>
> Also, wanted to ask you....way back when, there was discussion on the
> list as to the future of this project. I kinda got the impression that
> work on Turbine was moving toward focusing on making Turbine a services
> component for Avalon. Was I entirely mistaken on this? The thread
> kinda jumped around so I was never really sure what the outcome of it
> was.
>
> -b
>
> On Thu, 2003-06-19 at 09:12, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
> > I hope that noone will ever regret to get involved with turbine
> > development. :-)
> >
> > How can you help? Well, easiest thing would be to ask yourself "which
> > part of Turbine hurts me most". I'm sure that every turbine developer
> > would come up with a different part. :-)
> >
> > If you're somehow seasoned with the maven development tool, one of the
> > things that we really could need for the 2.3 release would be a simple,
> > skeletal build environment with some preset configuration files for
> > turbine, log4j and torque, and a simple way to generate a project.xml
> > file for "your new turbine project". The current tdk is simply to
> > cumbersome and aged to really work well. I admire the work that Martin
> > did to get a 2.2 TDK out but with maven around we might get a simpler,
> > better working and easier to understand development environment from
> > maven and a few tools.
> >
> > So this would be a really cool place to work on. I can send you some
> > demo apps that I threw together for demonstrating various aspects of
> > Turbine (you'll find links in the -dev archive, else I can send them to
> > you) and you would have to put together some build scripts.
> >
> > What platform do you normally work on? Windows or Unix/Linux? As far as
> > I can see, we could really need some more people testing the HEAD on
> > Windows.
> >
> > Regards
> > Henning
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 22:19, Bill wrote:
> > > Ok, I'm gonna regret this...but how can I help at this point? :)
> > >
> > > I dont have a ton of time, but what time I do have, I'd be more than
> > > willing to give.
> > >
> > > I'm probably not nearly as savvy a java coder as the three of you, but
> > > consider me at your service if I can speed things along.
> > >
> > > -b
> > >
> > > On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 15:05, Quinton McCombs wrote:
> > > > I don't recall that discussion although I have only been active on the
> > > > lists for about 8 - 9 months. I do know that the development of Turbine
> > > > is not only for support releases. Turbine 2.3 has been the continuation
> > > > of clean up and bug fixes. There have been very few new features added.
> > > >
> > > > Turbine 2.4 should should add Avalonization and a backport pipeline
> > > > functionality from Turbine 3. Both of these changes are geared to give
> > > > the user much greater flexibility in extending the product while at the
> > > > same time reducing the interdependencies between the various services.
> > > >
> > > > With the release of 2.4, I think that you will see that it is much
> > > > easier to change views and persistence layers. You will also be able to
> > > > use components from other projects in Turbine. For example, if you want
> > > > to use the quartz scheduler, Hibernate, or a few components from the
> > > > Plexus/Summit project, they should work without a problem.
> > > >
> > > > Turbine is not dead. It is moving rather slowly though. Henning has
> > > > been committing 90% of all of the changes lately. I have been unable to
> > > > work on the project for a little over a month now. Eric mainly focuses
> > > > of his new configuration stuff and unit testing. We are the only three
> > > > active developers on the project.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------
> > > > Quinton McCombs
> > > > NequalsOne - HealthCare marketing tools
> > > > mailto:qmccombs@NequalsOne.com
> > > > http://www.NequalsOne.com
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Bill [mailto:bhalpin@collaborativefusion.com]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 1:52 PM
> > > > > To: Quinton McCombs
> > > > > Subject: RE: Decimal Number support
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm curious...I made that exact point when the original
> > > > > announcement was made. The response from the list was no one
> > > > > is using or interested in using FM, and that all future
> > > > > releases were merely support releases. If Turbine
> > > > > development is only support releases at this point and we're
> > > > > moving toward Avalon, it doesnt make sense to add features in my mind.
> > > > >
> > > > > However, I have been stuck with a lot of work on the Business
> > > > > side of things in my company and have not been as attentive
> > > > > to the list as in the past. Did I miss a change, is this
> > > > > project now 'alive' again?
> > > > >
> > > > > -b
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 14:31, Quinton McCombs wrote:
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Bill [mailto:bhalpin@collaborativefusion.com]
> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 8:15 AM
> > > > > > > To: Henning P. Schmiedehausen
> > > > > > > Cc: turbine-user
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Decimal Number support
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Henning
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think working on Freemarker support would be a waste of the
> > > > > > > developers valuable time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It would not be a waste of time is people are interested in
> > > > > using it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > However, divorcing Turbine from
> > > > > > > Velocity to allow more flexibility not only seems like a good
> > > > > > > idea, it seems absolutely necessary if the I understand the
> > > > > > > path to Avalonization.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I agree with you that the flexibility would be a very good thing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Our view architecture is really not very plugable. The problem is
> > > > > > that once you start writing your actions and screen classes which
> > > > > > accept RunData and Context as parameters, you are become
> > > > > tied to the
> > > > > > view implementation. This was very much a shortcoming of the core
> > > > > > design of Turbine.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hennings idea to create a proxy class to represent the context type
> > > > > > object of the underlying view is indeed a good way to solve this
> > > > > > problem. It would require deprecating the methods that everyone
> > > > > > normally overrides in the screen and action classes. The
> > > > > replacement
> > > > > > would be virtually the same interface replacing Context
> > > > > with the new
> > > > > > class.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Even if we do not decide to support FreeMarker, I think
> > > > > that it would
> > > > > > be in our best interests to implement the proxy class for
> > > > > the context.
> > > > > > Right now, if your view is JSP and you want to switch to
> > > > > Velocity or
> > > > > > visa-versa, you must modify all of your action and screen classes.
> > > > > > Not fun.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -b
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 06:41, Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
> > > > > > > > Jonathan Revusky <jo...@revusky.com> writes:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> Hi,
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> is anyone of you needing or missing FreeMarker Support
> > > > > > > in Turbine
> > > > > > > > >> 2.2?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >I believe the question should maybe be rephrased:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >Is any one of you needing or missing decimal number support in
> > > > > > > > >Velocity?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ok,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Folks, is anyone of you missing <insert your feature
> > > > > here that FM
> > > > > > > > supports and Velocity does not> from the View portion
> > > > > of Turbine?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You will find a feature complete list on
> > > > > > > http://www.freemarker.org for
> > > > > > > > FreeMarker and on http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
> > > > > for Velocity.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If yes, would you consider a switch from Velocity to
> > > > > FreeMarker as
> > > > > > > > View for Turbine or would you get a pull tool to support
> > > > > > > this feature?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The reason for this (and Jonathans' response): On the
> > > > > > > Velocity lists,
> > > > > > > > there has been some rumbling about the current
> > > > > development state
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > Velocity and talking about alternatives to it. As we
> > > > > (Turbine) did
> > > > > > > > remove the (quite aged and not actively maintained)
> > > > > > > FreeMarker support
> > > > > > > > post Turbine-2.2, there have been some accusations of doing this
> > > > > > > > because of "political reasons". As I was not really
> > > > > > > involved in the FM
> > > > > > > > stuff or its removal, I'm trying to collect opinions from
> > > > > > > the Turbine
> > > > > > > > users about getting FM support back into Turbine. However, if
> > > > > > > > noone
> > > > > > > > wants to use it, it wouldn't make much sense and the change
> > > > > > > itself is
> > > > > > > > (IMHO) quite a major one to support FM really good.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Jonathan, some technical information (which you as a
> > > > > > > non-Turbine guy
> > > > > > > > might not have seen yet): Unfortunately the
> > > > > o.a.velocity.Context
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > buried pretty deep in the Turbine code (this is legacy of
> > > > > > > the original
> > > > > > > > turbine developers). So we will have to replace this in every
> > > > > > > > place
> > > > > > > > with an Adapter class with plugs either onto the Velocity
> > > > > > > Context or a
> > > > > > > > similar class in every other view solution (FreeMarker, WebMacro
> > > > > > > > etc.).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Doing so, it would be necessary for all of our users to
> > > > > change the
> > > > > > > > imports in their self-written classes (Action, Screen),
> > > > > because the
> > > > > > > > Context is part of the signature of the methods which are
> > > > > > > overloaded
> > > > > > > > by user classes.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If we don't do this but just 'bolt FM support on' by using
> > > > > > > different
> > > > > > > > classes, there wouldn't be much won, because people would still
> > > > > > > > use
> > > > > > > > VelocityScreen, VelocityPage etc. just as in all the
> > > > > example code
> > > > > > > > around and the FM code would start to rot (again). I don't
> > > > > > > want this,
> > > > > > > > because it wouldn't buy much for the Turbine users. So we
> > > > > > > would need
> > > > > > > > some major core changes to allow developers to simply
> > > > > switch views
> > > > > > > > without having to rewrite all of their classes later.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If we want to have engine-independent view support which is
> > > > > > > equal for
> > > > > > > > all templating solutions (and not heavily Velocity based as the
> > > > > > > > current view is, which is one of the reasons why noone
> > > > > > > really uses FM
> > > > > > > > and/or WebMacro with Turbine and the code started to
> > > > > rot), we will
> > > > > > > > have to make this (major) change. This is something that
> > > > > > > affects all
> > > > > > > > of our users and we will listen to them.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >Is anybody missing any of those features?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Please send opinions to this list. Turbine 2.3 is pretty much in
> > > > > > > > feature-freeze state and I want to put out an RC until the
> > > > > > > end of next
> > > > > > > > week (Colin, don't worry, your Intake changes will be in
> > > > > > > :-) ) and I'm
> > > > > > > > already starting to collect ideas for 2.4-dev. However,
> > > > > > > moving to the
> > > > > > > > pipeline and towards Avalon will (for me) stay top priority.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > > > Henning
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Bill <bh...@collaborativefusion.com>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > > turbine-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > > turbine-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: turbine-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > > turbine-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > > > > --
> > > > > Bill <bh...@collaborativefusion.com>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH hps@intermeta.de
Am Schwabachgrund 22 Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0 info@intermeta.de
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20
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RE: Decimal Number support
Posted by Colin Chalmers <co...@maxware.nl>.
"We are the only three active developers on the project."
Hhmm, that's not much. If my patches were to get checked in I could probably
work on a few other bits & pieces. I have a lull between projects at the
moment.
Colin
-----Original Message-----
From: Henning Schmiedehausen [mailto:hps@intermeta.de]
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 3:13 PM
To: Bill
Cc: Quinton McCombs; Eric Pugh; Turbine Developers List
Subject: RE: Decimal Number support
I hope that noone will ever regret to get involved with turbine
development. :-)
How can you help? Well, easiest thing would be to ask yourself "which
part of Turbine hurts me most". I'm sure that every turbine developer
would come up with a different part. :-)
If you're somehow seasoned with the maven development tool, one of the
things that we really could need for the 2.3 release would be a simple,
skeletal build environment with some preset configuration files for
turbine, log4j and torque, and a simple way to generate a project.xml
file for "your new turbine project". The current tdk is simply to
cumbersome and aged to really work well. I admire the work that Martin
did to get a 2.2 TDK out but with maven around we might get a simpler,
better working and easier to understand development environment from
maven and a few tools.
So this would be a really cool place to work on. I can send you some
demo apps that I threw together for demonstrating various aspects of
Turbine (you'll find links in the -dev archive, else I can send them to
you) and you would have to put together some build scripts.
What platform do you normally work on? Windows or Unix/Linux? As far as
I can see, we could really need some more people testing the HEAD on
Windows.
Regards
Henning
On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 22:19, Bill wrote:
> Ok, I'm gonna regret this...but how can I help at this point? :)
>
> I dont have a ton of time, but what time I do have, I'd be more than
> willing to give.
>
> I'm probably not nearly as savvy a java coder as the three of you, but
> consider me at your service if I can speed things along.
>
> -b
>
> On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 15:05, Quinton McCombs wrote:
> > I don't recall that discussion although I have only been active on the
> > lists for about 8 - 9 months. I do know that the development of Turbine
> > is not only for support releases. Turbine 2.3 has been the continuation
> > of clean up and bug fixes. There have been very few new features added.
> >
> > Turbine 2.4 should should add Avalonization and a backport pipeline
> > functionality from Turbine 3. Both of these changes are geared to give
> > the user much greater flexibility in extending the product while at the
> > same time reducing the interdependencies between the various services.
> >
> > With the release of 2.4, I think that you will see that it is much
> > easier to change views and persistence layers. You will also be able to
> > use components from other projects in Turbine. For example, if you want
> > to use the quartz scheduler, Hibernate, or a few components from the
> > Plexus/Summit project, they should work without a problem.
> >
> > Turbine is not dead. It is moving rather slowly though. Henning has
> > been committing 90% of all of the changes lately. I have been unable to
> > work on the project for a little over a month now. Eric mainly focuses
> > of his new configuration stuff and unit testing. We are the only three
> > active developers on the project.
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> > Quinton McCombs
> > NequalsOne - HealthCare marketing tools
> > mailto:qmccombs@NequalsOne.com
> > http://www.NequalsOne.com
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bill [mailto:bhalpin@collaborativefusion.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 1:52 PM
> > > To: Quinton McCombs
> > > Subject: RE: Decimal Number support
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm curious...I made that exact point when the original
> > > announcement was made. The response from the list was no one
> > > is using or interested in using FM, and that all future
> > > releases were merely support releases. If Turbine
> > > development is only support releases at this point and we're
> > > moving toward Avalon, it doesnt make sense to add features in my mind.
> > >
> > > However, I have been stuck with a lot of work on the Business
> > > side of things in my company and have not been as attentive
> > > to the list as in the past. Did I miss a change, is this
> > > project now 'alive' again?
> > >
> > > -b
> > >
> > > On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 14:31, Quinton McCombs wrote:
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Bill [mailto:bhalpin@collaborativefusion.com]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 8:15 AM
> > > > > To: Henning P. Schmiedehausen
> > > > > Cc: turbine-user
> > > > > Subject: Re: Decimal Number support
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Henning
> > > > >
> > > > > I think working on Freemarker support would be a waste of the
> > > > > developers valuable time.
> > > >
> > > > It would not be a waste of time is people are interested in
> > > using it.
> > > >
> > > > > However, divorcing Turbine from
> > > > > Velocity to allow more flexibility not only seems like a good
> > > > > idea, it seems absolutely necessary if the I understand the
> > > > > path to Avalonization.
> > > >
> > > > I agree with you that the flexibility would be a very good thing.
> > > >
> > > > Our view architecture is really not very plugable. The problem is
> > > > that once you start writing your actions and screen classes which
> > > > accept RunData and Context as parameters, you are become
> > > tied to the
> > > > view implementation. This was very much a shortcoming of the core
> > > > design of Turbine.
> > > >
> > > > Hennings idea to create a proxy class to represent the context type
> > > > object of the underlying view is indeed a good way to solve this
> > > > problem. It would require deprecating the methods that everyone
> > > > normally overrides in the screen and action classes. The
> > > replacement
> > > > would be virtually the same interface replacing Context
> > > with the new
> > > > class.
> > > >
> > > > Even if we do not decide to support FreeMarker, I think
> > > that it would
> > > > be in our best interests to implement the proxy class for
> > > the context.
> > > > Right now, if your view is JSP and you want to switch to
> > > Velocity or
> > > > visa-versa, you must modify all of your action and screen classes.
> > > > Not fun.
> > > >
> > > > > -b
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 06:41, Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
> > > > > > Jonathan Revusky <jo...@revusky.com> writes:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
> > > > > > >> Hi,
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> is anyone of you needing or missing FreeMarker Support
> > > > > in Turbine
> > > > > > >> 2.2?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >I believe the question should maybe be rephrased:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Is any one of you needing or missing decimal number support in
> > > > > > >Velocity?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ok,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Folks, is anyone of you missing <insert your feature
> > > here that FM
> > > > > > supports and Velocity does not> from the View portion
> > > of Turbine?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You will find a feature complete list on
> > > > > http://www.freemarker.org for
> > > > > > FreeMarker and on http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
> > > for Velocity.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If yes, would you consider a switch from Velocity to
> > > FreeMarker as
> > > > > > View for Turbine or would you get a pull tool to support
> > > > > this feature?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The reason for this (and Jonathans' response): On the
> > > > > Velocity lists,
> > > > > > there has been some rumbling about the current
> > > development state
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > Velocity and talking about alternatives to it. As we
> > > (Turbine) did
> > > > > > remove the (quite aged and not actively maintained)
> > > > > FreeMarker support
> > > > > > post Turbine-2.2, there have been some accusations of doing this
> > > > > > because of "political reasons". As I was not really
> > > > > involved in the FM
> > > > > > stuff or its removal, I'm trying to collect opinions from
> > > > > the Turbine
> > > > > > users about getting FM support back into Turbine. However, if
> > > > > > noone
> > > > > > wants to use it, it wouldn't make much sense and the change
> > > > > itself is
> > > > > > (IMHO) quite a major one to support FM really good.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jonathan, some technical information (which you as a
> > > > > non-Turbine guy
> > > > > > might not have seen yet): Unfortunately the
> > > o.a.velocity.Context
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > buried pretty deep in the Turbine code (this is legacy of
> > > > > the original
> > > > > > turbine developers). So we will have to replace this in every
> > > > > > place
> > > > > > with an Adapter class with plugs either onto the Velocity
> > > > > Context or a
> > > > > > similar class in every other view solution (FreeMarker, WebMacro
> > > > > > etc.).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Doing so, it would be necessary for all of our users to
> > > change the
> > > > > > imports in their self-written classes (Action, Screen),
> > > because the
> > > > > > Context is part of the signature of the methods which are
> > > > > overloaded
> > > > > > by user classes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If we don't do this but just 'bolt FM support on' by using
> > > > > different
> > > > > > classes, there wouldn't be much won, because people would still
> > > > > > use
> > > > > > VelocityScreen, VelocityPage etc. just as in all the
> > > example code
> > > > > > around and the FM code would start to rot (again). I don't
> > > > > want this,
> > > > > > because it wouldn't buy much for the Turbine users. So we
> > > > > would need
> > > > > > some major core changes to allow developers to simply
> > > switch views
> > > > > > without having to rewrite all of their classes later.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If we want to have engine-independent view support which is
> > > > > equal for
> > > > > > all templating solutions (and not heavily Velocity based as the
> > > > > > current view is, which is one of the reasons why noone
> > > > > really uses FM
> > > > > > and/or WebMacro with Turbine and the code started to
> > > rot), we will
> > > > > > have to make this (major) change. This is something that
> > > > > affects all
> > > > > > of our users and we will listen to them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Is anybody missing any of those features?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please send opinions to this list. Turbine 2.3 is pretty much in
> > > > > > feature-freeze state and I want to put out an RC until the
> > > > > end of next
> > > > > > week (Colin, don't worry, your Intake changes will be in
> > > > > :-) ) and I'm
> > > > > > already starting to collect ideas for 2.4-dev. However,
> > > > > moving to the
> > > > > > pipeline and towards Avalon will (for me) stay top priority.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > Henning
> > > > > --
> > > > > Bill <bh...@collaborativefusion.com>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > -
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > turbine-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > turbine-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: turbine-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > turbine-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > > --
> > > Bill <bh...@collaborativefusion.com>
> > >
> > >
> > >
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH hps@intermeta.de
Am Schwabachgrund 22 Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0 info@intermeta.de
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20
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