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Posted to dev@forrest.apache.org by Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org> on 2006/03/09 01:22:05 UTC
Forrest history (was Re: svn commit: r384121)
El mié, 08-03-2006 a las 05:19 +0000, crossley@apache.org escribió:
> Author: crossley
> Date: Tue Mar 7 21:19:18 2006
> New Revision: 384121
>
> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs?rev=384121&view=rev
> Log:
> She did this, he did that, none of it would be possible without the rest of us.
> Lets not start claiming ownership. Where would we stop?
>
> Modified:
> forrest/trunk/site-author/content/xdocs/live-sites.xml
>
> Modified: forrest/trunk/site-author/content/xdocs/live-sites.xml
> URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs/forrest/trunk/site-author/content/xdocs/live-sites.xml?rev=384121&r1=384120&r2=384121&view=diff
> ==============================================================================
> --- forrest/trunk/site-author/content/xdocs/live-sites.xml (original)
> +++ forrest/trunk/site-author/content/xdocs/live-sites.xml Tue Mar 7 21:19:18 2006
> @@ -159,7 +159,7 @@
> new features like the theme switcher.</li>
> <li><link href="http://www.target-x.de/">tarGET-X</link> - know the
> unknown. The original idea of this site is to be a service broker. It
> - is the website of the dispatcher inventor: Thorsten Scherler.
> + is the website of Forrest committer: Thorsten Scherler.
> </li>
> <!-- <li><link href=""></link></li> -->
> </ul>
What about http://cocoon.apache.org/history.html?
It is not *ownership* that "is the website of the dispatcher inventor:
Thorsten Scherler" claims but stating the matter of fact. I had the itch
and scratched it (and still do) as a historical fact. ;)
Stefano Mazzocchi is the inventor of cocoon and Sir Berners-Lee is the
inventor of the www, neither one of them claims ownership AFAIK. Another
story is the net and the US government. ;) The initial forrest code is
coming from Nicola Ken Barozzi and Ross Gardler has started the plugins
both do not claim ownership neither do I with views aka v2 aka
dispatcher, still the initial code came from this people.
Doing some research on the forrest history for my presentation I noticed
that we are starting to hide historical facts and motives. I know we
still have all this information but it is well hidden (e.g. [1]).
Why?
I strongly agree with "none of it would be possible without the rest of
us" but one should not confuse one thing from the other.
Like the very first dispatcher site ever online is from Diwaker Gupta
[2], helping us (especially me, back then) to demonstrate that one can
use the dispatcher in production. It was the very first version
codename: view. Thanks again Diwaker.
I like history and the humanity would be nothing if not people would
have kept track when and how something happen.
Do not get me wrong but I would like to start a history page about
forrest (here) and keeping track of who did what, because it helps to
understand us currently as project and where we are heading.
wdyt?
BTW why do we versioning old docu? ;)
salu2
[1] http://forrest.apache.org/docs_0_80/primer.html
[2] http://floatingsun.net/
--
thorsten
"Together we stand, divided we fall!"
Hey you (Pink Floyd)
Re: Forrest history (was Re: svn commit: r384121)
Posted by Ferdinand Soethe <fe...@apache.org>.
Thorsten,
I too wonder where this is headed?
- Forrest as a project had and has a clear policy about (not) crediting
individuals in our official site.
- Your labeling of the reference to your site was at least very
close to breaking that rule, so David had all the right to change
it w/o asking.
- We repeatedly went through all the reasons for this rule and I
didn't get the immpression that many committers are
suggesting to change it.
- As far as a I can tell you are way too intelligent a person not to
understand all of that.
So what are you aiming at?
--
Ferdinand Soethe
Re: Forrest history (was Re: svn commit: r384121)
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> David Crossley escribi??:
> > Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> > >
> > > I never have seen university nor commercial studies providing evidence
> > > for such a relation. Do you have any proof or concrete examples for this
> > > claim?
> >
> > The ASF and its ways is starting to be discussed
> > in such fora, but really we are breaking new ground
> > in community building.
> >
> > It is obvious to me that if we start making a special
> > list of who did what, then we will get into hot water.
> > Listing certain people and not *every* person who
> > made a contribution will cause various troubles.
> > Here are some ...
> >
> > * Inferiority complex.
> >
> > * Mistaken impression about "leadership". There are
> > no leaders in Apache communities. We are essentially
> > all equal developers. The committed ones will eventually
> > become committers.
> >
> > * Maintenance nightmare. Who is going to wade through
> > our history and list all the deserving contributions.
> > Who will keep it up-to-date.
> >
> > * Impossible to determine who is a "deserving contributor".
>
> Hmm, that are some of the well known FUD arguments of it. You have not
> shown me any proof of such relation but rather used the most common FUD
> arguments.
They are not FUD. Thorsten, this is getting silly.
> I still do not understand, why other Apache projects are having a
> history page and you are not concerned enough about it to bring it up in
> those projects (or in the case of cocoon where you are committer, just
> revert it/remove it, like you did with my commit).
>
> Why?
Forrest sucks up all my time. I try to keep up-to-date
at Cocoon-dev but not time to make any commits, let alone
get into discussions like this one.
My main aim at Forrest is to help develop a community
style that acknowledges every contributor and not
just a few people. If i see some documentation or code
that goes against that, then i will change it. Not just
me, we all need to constantly improve our documentation.
Perhaps one day i will have time to help get Cocoon's
community development back on the rails too. Their
progress with Guidelines documentation has stalled.
At the moment Forrest is my focus.
-David
Re: Forrest history (was Re: svn commit: r384121)
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
>I still do not understand, why other Apache projects are having a
>history page and you are not concerned enough about it to bring it up in
>those projects (or in the case of cocoon where you are committer, just
>revert it/remove it, like you did with my commit).
>
>
I can talk for the history of the "cocoon history page" [1]. I took it
from an Stefano interview. I found it quite interesting than decided to
include part of it as the cocoon history in the cocoon website. Note
that it was not Stefano who was pushing the page there. But if this page
is doing a problem, you can request the cocoon dev to remove it.
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo.
[1]
http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/cocoon/site/src/documentation/content/xdocs/history.xml?rev=280061&view=log
Re: Forrest history (was Re: svn commit: r384121)
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>.
El jue, 16-03-2006 a las 19:10 +1100, David Crossley escribió:
> Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> > David Crossley escribi??:
> > ...
> > > >
> > > > I like history and the humanity would be nothing if not people would
> > > > have kept track when and how something happen.
> > > >
> > > > Do not get me wrong but I would like to start a history page about
> > > > forrest (here) and keeping track of who did what, because it helps to
> > > > understand us currently as project and where we are heading.
> > >
> > > I definitely do not want us to start keeping track
> > > of who did what. That is very dangerous in open source
> > > projects. It works against community-building.
> >
> > Well that is your personal opinion.
>
> Every statement is our personal opinion and we
> don't need to keep saying so.
That is not true and you know it. I had a similar case on another list
where a similiar thing happened. If somebody "important" from the
project speaks up it seems for outsider that she is reflecting the
opinion of the project.
Sometimes we need to point out that it is our personal opinion and not
the one of the project!
>
> > I never have seen university nor commercial studies providing evidence
> > for such a relation. Do you have any proof or concrete examples for this
> > claim?
>
> The ASF and its ways is starting to be discussed
> in such fora, but really we are breaking new ground
> in community building.
>
> It is obvious to me that if we start making a special
> list of who did what, then we will get into hot water.
> Listing certain people and not *every* person who
> made a contribution will cause various troubles.
> Here are some ...
>
> * Inferiority complex.
>
> * Mistaken impression about "leadership". There are
> no leaders in Apache communities. We are essentially
> all equal developers. The committed ones will eventually
> become committers.
>
> * Maintenance nightmare. Who is going to wade through
> our history and list all the deserving contributions.
> Who will keep it up-to-date.
>
> * Impossible to determine who is a "deserving contributor".
>
Hmm, that are some of the well known FUD arguments of it. You have not
shown me any proof of such relation but rather used the most common FUD
arguments.
I still do not understand, why other Apache projects are having a
history page and you are not concerned enough about it to bring it up in
those projects (or in the case of cocoon where you are committer, just
revert it/remove it, like you did with my commit).
Why?
salu2
--
thorsten
"Together we stand, divided we fall!"
Hey you (Pink Floyd)
Re: Forrest history (was Re: svn commit: r384121)
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> David Crossley escribi??:
> ...
> > >
> > > I like history and the humanity would be nothing if not people would
> > > have kept track when and how something happen.
> > >
> > > Do not get me wrong but I would like to start a history page about
> > > forrest (here) and keeping track of who did what, because it helps to
> > > understand us currently as project and where we are heading.
> >
> > I definitely do not want us to start keeping track
> > of who did what. That is very dangerous in open source
> > projects. It works against community-building.
>
> Well that is your personal opinion.
Every statement is our personal opinion and we
don't need to keep saying so.
> I never have seen university nor commercial studies providing evidence
> for such a relation. Do you have any proof or concrete examples for this
> claim?
The ASF and its ways is starting to be discussed
in such fora, but really we are breaking new ground
in community building.
It is obvious to me that if we start making a special
list of who did what, then we will get into hot water.
Listing certain people and not *every* person who
made a contribution will cause various troubles.
Here are some ...
* Inferiority complex.
* Mistaken impression about "leadership". There are
no leaders in Apache communities. We are essentially
all equal developers. The committed ones will eventually
become committers.
* Maintenance nightmare. Who is going to wade through
our history and list all the deserving contributions.
Who will keep it up-to-date.
* Impossible to determine who is a "deserving contributor".
-David
Re: Forrest history (was Re: svn commit: r384121)
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>.
El jue, 09-03-2006 a las 12:47 +1100, David Crossley escribió:
...
> >
> > I like history and the humanity would be nothing if not people would
> > have kept track when and how something happen.
> >
> > Do not get me wrong but I would like to start a history page about
> > forrest (here) and keeping track of who did what, because it helps to
> > understand us currently as project and where we are heading.
>
> I definitely do not want us to start keeping track
> of who did what. That is very dangerous in open source
> projects. It works against community-building.
Well that is your personal opinion.
I never have seen university nor commercial studies providing evidence
for such a relation. Do you have any proof or concrete examples for this
claim?
salu2
--
thorsten
"Together we stand, divided we fall!"
Hey you (Pink Floyd)
Re: versioning old docu
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> El jue, 09-03-2006 a las 12:47 +1100, David Crossley escribió:
>
>>>BTW why do we versioning old docu? ;)
>>
>>Please explain what you mean.
>
>
> Older Docs:
> http://forrest.apache.org/docs_0_80/primer.html
> http://forrest.apache.org/docs_0_70/primer.html
>
> As well:
> Libre
> Dream list
> CVS over SSH
>
> Since they are older docs they will not be edited {forrest-version}
> specific any more.
>
> Meaning we should move them out of the versioned docs.
Yeah, you are right. I recall that when David and Ferdinand spent a
whole rotation of the planet sorting out the versioned docs they
summarised their work by stating that (paraphrasing) "it's not perfect
and we need to ensure that everything is in the right place".
Ross
Re: versioning old docu
Posted by Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>.
On 3/9/06, Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org> wrote:
> El jue, 09-03-2006 a las 12:47 +1100, David Crossley escribió:
> > > BTW why do we versioning old docu? ;)
> >
> > Please explain what you mean.
>
> Older Docs:
> http://forrest.apache.org/docs_0_80/primer.html
> http://forrest.apache.org/docs_0_70/primer.html
>
> As well:
> Libre
> Dream list
> CVS over SSH
>
> Since they are older docs they will not be edited {forrest-version}
> specific any more.
Shucks, I thought you meant "why do we version older docs":
version==svn && older docs==user docs. I thought it was an odd
question. I reckon my reply seems odd now;)
> Meaning we should move them out of the versioned docs.
+1
--tim
versioning old docu
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>.
El jue, 09-03-2006 a las 12:47 +1100, David Crossley escribió:
> > BTW why do we versioning old docu? ;)
>
> Please explain what you mean.
Older Docs:
http://forrest.apache.org/docs_0_80/primer.html
http://forrest.apache.org/docs_0_70/primer.html
As well:
Libre
Dream list
CVS over SSH
Since they are older docs they will not be edited {forrest-version}
specific any more.
Meaning we should move them out of the versioned docs.
salu2
--
thorsten
"Together we stand, divided we fall!"
Hey you (Pink Floyd)
Re: Forrest history (was Re: svn commit: r384121)
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > New Revision: 384121
> >
> > URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs?rev=384121&view=rev
> > Log:
> > She did this, he did that, none of it would be possible without the rest of us.
> > Lets not start claiming ownership. Where would we stop?
> >
> > Modified:
> > forrest/trunk/site-author/content/xdocs/live-sites.xml
> >
> > Modified: forrest/trunk/site-author/content/xdocs/live-sites.xml
> > URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs/forrest/trunk/site-author/content/xdocs/live-sites.xml?rev=384121&r1=384120&r2=384121&view=diff
> > ==============================================================================
> > --- forrest/trunk/site-author/content/xdocs/live-sites.xml (original)
> > +++ forrest/trunk/site-author/content/xdocs/live-sites.xml Tue Mar 7 21:19:18 2006
> > @@ -159,7 +159,7 @@
> > new features like the theme switcher.</li>
> > <li><link href="http://www.target-x.de/">tarGET-X</link> - know the
> > unknown. The original idea of this site is to be a service broker. It
> > - is the website of the dispatcher inventor: Thorsten Scherler.
> > + is the website of Forrest committer: Thorsten Scherler.
> > </li>
> > <!-- <li><link href=""></link></li> -->
> > </ul>
>
> What about http://cocoon.apache.org/history.html?
I also disagree with Stefano saying that he invented
Cocoon and Forrest.
> It is not *ownership* that "is the website of the dispatcher inventor:
> Thorsten Scherler" claims but stating the matter of fact. I had the itch
> and scratched it (and still do) as a historical fact. ;)
>
> Stefano Mazzocchi is the inventor of cocoon and Sir Berners-Lee is the
> inventor of the www, neither one of them claims ownership AFAIK. Another
> story is the net and the US government. ;) The initial forrest code is
> coming from Nicola Ken Barozzi and Ross Gardler has started the plugins
> both do not claim ownership neither do I with views aka v2 aka
> dispatcher, still the initial code came from this people.
>
> Doing some research on the forrest history for my presentation I noticed
> that we are starting to hide historical facts and motives. I know we
> still have all this information but it is well hidden (e.g. [1]).
>
> Why?
>
> I strongly agree with "none of it would be possible without the rest of
> us" but one should not confuse one thing from the other.
>
> Like the very first dispatcher site ever online is from Diwaker Gupta
> [2], helping us (especially me, back then) to demonstrate that one can
> use the dispatcher in production. It was the very first version
> codename: view. Thanks again Diwaker.
>
> I like history and the humanity would be nothing if not people would
> have kept track when and how something happen.
>
> Do not get me wrong but I would like to start a history page about
> forrest (here) and keeping track of who did what, because it helps to
> understand us currently as project and where we are heading.
I definitely do not want us to start keeping track
of who did what. That is very dangerous in open source
projects. It works against community-building.
As i said, where will we stop and who will we leave out
and who will we include? Are we going to dig out the
many things that i did for the project? No way.
> wdyt?
I think that it is the wrong approach.
> BTW why do we versioning old docu? ;)
Please explain what you mean.
-David
> [1] http://forrest.apache.org/docs_0_80/primer.html
> [2] http://floatingsun.net/
> --
> thorsten
>
> "Together we stand, divided we fall!"
> Hey you (Pink Floyd)
>
Re: Forrest history (was Re: svn commit: r384121)
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> El mié, 08-03-2006 a las 05:19 +0000, crossley@apache.org escribió:
>
>>Author: crossley
>>Date: Tue Mar 7 21:19:18 2006
>>New Revision: 384121
>>
>>URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs?rev=384121&view=rev
>>Log:
>>She did this, he did that, none of it would be possible without the rest of us.
>>Lets not start claiming ownership. Where would we stop?
>>
>>Modified:
>> forrest/trunk/site-author/content/xdocs/live-sites.xml
>>
>>Modified: forrest/trunk/site-author/content/xdocs/live-sites.xml
>>URL: http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs/forrest/trunk/site-author/content/xdocs/live-sites.xml?rev=384121&r1=384120&r2=384121&view=diff
>>==============================================================================
>>--- forrest/trunk/site-author/content/xdocs/live-sites.xml (original)
>>+++ forrest/trunk/site-author/content/xdocs/live-sites.xml Tue Mar 7 21:19:18 2006
>>@@ -159,7 +159,7 @@
>> new features like the theme switcher.</li>
>> <li><link href="http://www.target-x.de/">tarGET-X</link> - know the
>> unknown. The original idea of this site is to be a service broker. It
>>- is the website of the dispatcher inventor: Thorsten Scherler.
>>+ is the website of Forrest committer: Thorsten Scherler.
>> </li>
>> <!-- <li><link href=""></link></li> -->
>> </ul>
>
>
> What about http://cocoon.apache.org/history.html?
>
> It is not *ownership* that "is the website of the dispatcher inventor:
> Thorsten Scherler" claims but stating the matter of fact. I had the itch
> and scratched it (and still do) as a historical fact. ;)
>
> Stefano Mazzocchi is the inventor of cocoon and Sir Berners-Lee is the
> inventor of the www, neither one of them claims ownership AFAIK. Another
> story is the net and the US government. ;) The initial forrest code is
> coming from Nicola Ken Barozzi and Ross Gardler has started the plugins
> both do not claim ownership neither do I with views aka v2 aka
> dispatcher, still the initial code came from this people.
But...
Ross Gardler has never claimed to be the "inventor of the plugins
architecture". I reused much code from within Forrest (as does the
dispatcher) and I asked for feedback and guidance from the community (as
did you).
For the record, the plugins architecture is the invention of the
community, not Ross Gardler.
> Do not get me wrong but I would like to start a history page about
> forrest (here) and keeping track of who did what, because it helps to
> understand us currently as project and where we are heading.
-1 it *implies* ownership, even if that is not the intention.
Ross
Re: Forrest history (was Re: svn commit: r384121)
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
David Crossley wrote:
> Thanks Tim, your comments are spot on.
>
> Tim Williams wrote:
> [ snip ]
>
>>Having said all this, I personally think that David's change was a bit
>>hasty. We don't sensor anyone else's "live-site" contribution, why
>>would we filter our own fellow committer? If Thorsten wants that to
>>be his tag line for his personal site, what say to do we have in that?
>> It's his personal web site.
>
>
> It wasn't hasty. I thought long and hard about that.
> I don't see it as censoring. It is just the same as
> any change that we make to code or docs. If we see
> something that we reckon is not correct or could be
> improved, then we change it. If other people think
> that it needs discussion or needs to be reverted,
> then say so as we are doing now.
>
> In the past i have made other changes to this
> live-sites doc and to other docs that linked
> to sites that were not relevant. (Not saying
> that this case is not relevant.)
Such as publically correcting my incorrect SVN log entry that seemed to
imply one of my sites was the first dispatcher based site (which it
wasn't) [1].
It wasn't actually David that made this correction, but it is still a
precedent.
Ross
[1] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=forrest-dev&m=112716113510454&w=2
Re: Forrest history (was Re: svn commit: r384121)
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> El jue, 09-03-2006 a las 21:18 +1100, David Crossley escribió:
>
>>Thanks Tim, your comments are spot on.
>>
Agreed.
...
>>Thorsten, don't take any of this personally.
>>We are still a new project and need to set our
>>direction. As before i am using real-life
>>situations to mould that.
>
>
> Well, lucky for me I am not soft-skinned and had enough opportunities to
> grow it thick.
;-) that's good.
> I think we should not change the link texts from live sites.
Perhaps it should have been discussed before being changed. But for the
record I would have been +1 for changing, my reasoning having been
expressed elsewhere in this thread.
I understand your point that live sites is for users but you are not a
user and the comment was referring to you as a developer of Forrest.
What you say on your own private sites, as Tim observed, is a whole
different matter.
>>I see this current situation as an important
>>aspect of community-building.
>
>
> Well, or the opposite. See the mail from Maurice.
Without an understanding of the importance of community one would never
be voted in as a committer. There are many people who do not agree with
the importance of community and they usually join none ASF-like projects.
NOTE: the above comment is *my* opinion, not necessarily that of the
Forrest project, people with conflicting opinions should not feel that
the above *personal* opinion in any way diminishes the importance of
your own views. Please speak up and disagree if you feel it is necessary.
>>It is not about the "history". Anyone who
>>is interested can find that in the archives
>>or we can try to build a concise timeline.
>
>
> With information from the archive and svn/cvs this is *really* time
> consuming. Further how should new people know what to look for? The
> argument "it is all in the archive and in the commit log" is like
> telling somebody looking for a needle in a haystack.
Its not so difficult in http://forrest.apache.org/docs_0_80/changes.html
which is the official published history of the project, the rest are all
artifacts.
Ross
Re: Forrest history (was Re: svn commit: r384121)
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Antonio Gallardo wrote:
> Thorsten Scherler wrote:
>
>> I would like to use the svn log as changes.html.
>>
>>
> IMHO, svn log contains far more info that needed in a change.html. Take
> for example the "fix typo" or "indenting" svn commit logs. Make sense to
> include them into a changes.html? I guess not.
I agree that the commit log is way too deailed.
We already have a mechanism for recording contributions. This mechanism
is in a much more structured fromat than commit messages and so can be
processed moew efficiently afterwards, such as generating a list of
contributors to each release. Distinguishing between new code, new docs,
bug fixes etc.
This mechanism is status.xml (note Davids recent observations about bugs
in this system, minor XSL problems, but problems never the less.
It would be possible to write a post commit script for SVN that would
automatically add relevant commit messages to the changes.xml file. In
this case the commit message would have to contain certain tokens, for
example:
"Added ability to automatically update status.xml from SVN commit logs.
@importance=high
@dev=XYZ
@due-to=ABC
@fixes=FOR-123"
Alternatively an input plugin could be created to build staus.xml from
the SVN ommit logs.
Will I do the work? No. I'm happy with maintaining status.xml properly
(noting Davids observations about committers not doing this properly).
Ross
Re: Forrest history (was Re: svn commit: r384121)
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
>I would like to use the svn log as changes.html.
>
>
IMHO, svn log contains far more info that needed in a change.html. Take
for example the "fix typo" or "indenting" svn commit logs. Make sense to
include them into a changes.html? I guess not.
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo.
>salu2
>
>
Re: Forrest history (was Re: svn commit: r384121)
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>.
El jue, 16-03-2006 a las 19:13 +1100, David Crossley escribió:
> Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> > David Crossley escribi??:
> > > Thanks Tim, your comments are spot on.
> > >
> > > Tim Williams wrote:
> > > [ snip ]
> > > > Having said all this, I personally think that David's change was a bit
> > > > hasty. We don't sensor anyone else's "live-site" contribution, why
> > > > would we filter our own fellow committer? If Thorsten wants that to
> > > > be his tag line for his personal site, what say to do we have in that?
> > > > It's his personal web site.
> > >
> > > It wasn't hasty. I thought long and hard about that.
> > > I don't see it as censoring.
> >
> > Well I actually do see it as censoring and like Tims idea
> >
> > Tim Williams escribi??:
> > > Since we as the PMC actually endorse all other content on the site,
> > > maybe this live-sites page needs a disclaimer at the top saying that
> > > the Forrest PMC, commiters, and developers provide these links for
> > > examples and information only - we do not endorse any particular
> > > product, service, or information linked from this page?
> >
> > > It is just the same as
> > > any change that we make to code or docs. If we see
> > > something that we reckon is not correct or could be
> > > improved, then we change it. If other people think
> > > that it needs discussion or needs to be reverted,
> > > then say so as we are doing now.
> >
> > The live site links are provided from user of forrest.
>
> As i said, there have been various occasions already that
> required a change to their "contribution". For example
> some waffled on for far longer than the other listed sites.
>
...and?
Doing something wrong in the past is not a justification for doing it
wrong in the future!
Like said removing dead or unreleated links are one thing, changing
taglines another!
> > If e.g. nokia uses forrest for they site, it would probably be
> > <li><a href="http://www.nokia.com/">nokia</a> connecting people</li>
> >
> > If you change this because you think "is not correct" then nokia will
> > ask that the link will be changed back or removed. I do not agree that
> > we should change site tags from our user. To use your own words: Where
> > would we stop (or not)?
>
> Committers have every right to do whatever they see fit.
Wow, welcome to the wild wild west, I propose as next to have official
commit shoot outs. ;)
> Ideally we would only change things on this page
> where they might have adverse affects on the health
> of our community. Such was my intent.
>
I am a committer, you know me, WHY did you not asked me? Not having
asked me why do you think I do not take the whole story at least a wee
bit personally when you change my personal site description? Why did you
not brought this up in the ml (and do not answer with your western
philosophy, please)?
Good intention are sometimes destroyed by the form, you know that right?
> > > In the past i have made other changes to this
> > > live-sites doc and to other docs that linked
> > > to sites that were not relevant. (Not saying
> > > that this case is not relevant.)
> >
> > Removing dead links is one thing, changing site descriptions a *totally*
> > different one.
> >
> > > Thorsten, don't take any of this personally.
> > > We are still a new project and need to set our
> > > direction. As before i am using real-life
> > > situations to mould that.
> >
> > Well, lucky for me I am not soft-skinned and had enough opportunities to
> > grow it thick.
> >
> > I think we should not change the link texts from live sites.
> >
> > > I see this current situation as an important
> > > aspect of community-building.
> >
> > Well, or the opposite. See the mail from Maurice.
>
> That email has some incorrect statements that i
> will try to address separately.
>
> > > It is not about the "history". Anyone who
> > > is interested can find that in the archives
> > > or we can try to build a concise timeline.
> >
> > With information from the archive and svn/cvs this is *really* time
> > consuming. Further how should new people know what to look for? The
> > argument "it is all in the archive and in the commit log" is like
> > telling somebody looking for a needle in a haystack.
>
> Perhaps we can try to build a concise timeline
> of events to give them some clues for search.
>
+1
> The changes.html should also provide some clues.
> Committers need to take more care with that
> to ensure that most code/doc contributions are
> acknowledged (including our own).
>
I would like to use the svn log as changes.html.
salu2
--
thorsten
"Together we stand, divided we fall!"
Hey you (Pink Floyd)
Re: Forrest history (was Re: svn commit: r384121)
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> David Crossley escribi??:
> > Thanks Tim, your comments are spot on.
> >
> > Tim Williams wrote:
> > [ snip ]
> > > Having said all this, I personally think that David's change was a bit
> > > hasty. We don't sensor anyone else's "live-site" contribution, why
> > > would we filter our own fellow committer? If Thorsten wants that to
> > > be his tag line for his personal site, what say to do we have in that?
> > > It's his personal web site.
> >
> > It wasn't hasty. I thought long and hard about that.
> > I don't see it as censoring.
>
> Well I actually do see it as censoring and like Tims idea
>
> Tim Williams escribi??:
> > Since we as the PMC actually endorse all other content on the site,
> > maybe this live-sites page needs a disclaimer at the top saying that
> > the Forrest PMC, commiters, and developers provide these links for
> > examples and information only - we do not endorse any particular
> > product, service, or information linked from this page?
>
> > It is just the same as
> > any change that we make to code or docs. If we see
> > something that we reckon is not correct or could be
> > improved, then we change it. If other people think
> > that it needs discussion or needs to be reverted,
> > then say so as we are doing now.
>
> The live site links are provided from user of forrest.
As i said, there have been various occasions already that
required a change to their "contribution". For example
some waffled on for far longer than the other listed sites.
> If e.g. nokia uses forrest for they site, it would probably be
> <li><a href="http://www.nokia.com/">nokia</a> connecting people</li>
>
> If you change this because you think "is not correct" then nokia will
> ask that the link will be changed back or removed. I do not agree that
> we should change site tags from our user. To use your own words: Where
> would we stop (or not)?
Committers have every right to do whatever they see fit.
Ideally we would only change things on this page
where they might have adverse affects on the health
of our community. Such was my intent.
> > In the past i have made other changes to this
> > live-sites doc and to other docs that linked
> > to sites that were not relevant. (Not saying
> > that this case is not relevant.)
>
> Removing dead links is one thing, changing site descriptions a *totally*
> different one.
>
> > Thorsten, don't take any of this personally.
> > We are still a new project and need to set our
> > direction. As before i am using real-life
> > situations to mould that.
>
> Well, lucky for me I am not soft-skinned and had enough opportunities to
> grow it thick.
>
> I think we should not change the link texts from live sites.
>
> > I see this current situation as an important
> > aspect of community-building.
>
> Well, or the opposite. See the mail from Maurice.
That email has some incorrect statements that i
will try to address separately.
> > It is not about the "history". Anyone who
> > is interested can find that in the archives
> > or we can try to build a concise timeline.
>
> With information from the archive and svn/cvs this is *really* time
> consuming. Further how should new people know what to look for? The
> argument "it is all in the archive and in the commit log" is like
> telling somebody looking for a needle in a haystack.
Perhaps we can try to build a concise timeline
of events to give them some clues for search.
The changes.html should also provide some clues.
Committers need to take more care with that
to ensure that most code/doc contributions are
acknowledged (including our own).
-David
Re: Forrest history (was Re: svn commit: r384121)
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>.
El jue, 09-03-2006 a las 21:18 +1100, David Crossley escribió:
> Thanks Tim, your comments are spot on.
>
> Tim Williams wrote:
> [ snip ]
> > Having said all this, I personally think that David's change was a bit
> > hasty. We don't sensor anyone else's "live-site" contribution, why
> > would we filter our own fellow committer? If Thorsten wants that to
> > be his tag line for his personal site, what say to do we have in that?
> > It's his personal web site.
>
> It wasn't hasty. I thought long and hard about that.
> I don't see it as censoring.
Well I actually do see it as censoring and like Tims idea
El mié, 08-03-2006 a las 21:19 -0500, Tim Williams escribió:
> Since we as the PMC actually endorse all other content on the site,
> maybe this live-sites page needs a disclaimer at the top saying that
> the Forrest PMC, commiters, and developers provide these links for
> examples and information only - we do not endorse any particular
> product, service, or information linked from this page?
> It is just the same as
> any change that we make to code or docs. If we see
> something that we reckon is not correct or could be
> improved, then we change it. If other people think
> that it needs discussion or needs to be reverted,
> then say so as we are doing now.
The live site links are provided from user of forrest.
If e.g. nokia uses forrest for they site, it would probably be
<li><a href="http://www.nokia.com/">nokia</a> connecting people</li>
If you change this because you think "is not correct" then nokia will
ask that the link will be changed back or removed. I do not agree that
we should change site tags from our user. To use your own words: Where
would we stop (or not)?
> In the past i have made other changes to this
> live-sites doc and to other docs that linked
> to sites that were not relevant. (Not saying
> that this case is not relevant.)
Removing dead links is one thing, changing site descriptions a *totally*
different one.
>
> Thorsten, don't take any of this personally.
> We are still a new project and need to set our
> direction. As before i am using real-life
> situations to mould that.
Well, lucky for me I am not soft-skinned and had enough opportunities to
grow it thick.
I think we should not change the link texts from live sites.
>
> I see this current situation as an important
> aspect of community-building.
Well, or the opposite. See the mail from Maurice.
>
> It is not about the "history". Anyone who
> is interested can find that in the archives
> or we can try to build a concise timeline.
With information from the archive and svn/cvs this is *really* time
consuming. Further how should new people know what to look for? The
argument "it is all in the archive and in the commit log" is like
telling somebody looking for a needle in a haystack.
salu2
--
thorsten
"Together we stand, divided we fall!"
Hey you (Pink Floyd)
Re: Forrest history (was Re: svn commit: r384121)
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Thanks Tim, your comments are spot on.
Tim Williams wrote:
[ snip ]
> Having said all this, I personally think that David's change was a bit
> hasty. We don't sensor anyone else's "live-site" contribution, why
> would we filter our own fellow committer? If Thorsten wants that to
> be his tag line for his personal site, what say to do we have in that?
> It's his personal web site.
It wasn't hasty. I thought long and hard about that.
I don't see it as censoring. It is just the same as
any change that we make to code or docs. If we see
something that we reckon is not correct or could be
improved, then we change it. If other people think
that it needs discussion or needs to be reverted,
then say so as we are doing now.
In the past i have made other changes to this
live-sites doc and to other docs that linked
to sites that were not relevant. (Not saying
that this case is not relevant.)
Thorsten, don't take any of this personally.
We are still a new project and need to set our
direction. As before i am using real-life
situations to mould that.
I see this current situation as an important
aspect of community-building.
It is not about the "history". Anyone who
is interested can find that in the archives
or we can try to build a concise timeline.
-David
> Since we as the PMC actually endorse all other content on the site,
> maybe this live-sites page needs a disclaimer at the top saying that
> the Forrest PMC, commiters, and developers provide these links for
> examples and information only - we do not endorse any particular
> product, service, or information linked from this page?
>
> --tim
>
> [1] - http://forrest.apache.org/docs_0_80/changes.html
Re: Forrest history (was Re: svn commit: r384121)
Posted by Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>.
I'm probably a unique case in that I don't particular want credit for
anything I've done here. I'm usually dissatisfied with most code I've
written within a couple weeks of having written it so long-lasting
credit for it is the last thing I want. I do, however, like to be
associated with this community.
> What about http://cocoon.apache.org/history.html?
It's worth pointing out that you use a stale page as your example.
Interesting, because that is what any "history" page is likely to
become. Those who know it don't have time or the itch to write it.
> It is not *ownership* that "is the website of the dispatcher inventor:
> Thorsten Scherler" claims but stating the matter of fact.
I could be wrong but I don't think that ownership was what David's
primary concern was - I gather his concern is more about crediting
individual contributions. Specifically about us as a community
putting a high-priority on crediting individual contributions. It's
enough that we're progressing as a community and project - individual
contributions are important but not as important as our collective
progress.
> I had the itch
> and scratched it (and still do) as a historical fact. ;)
And that historical fact will forever be recorded in mail archives,
svn logs, and relevant changes.html. Bottom line: we know who to
[svn] blame;)
> Stefano Mazzocchi is the inventor of cocoon and Sir Berners-Lee is the
> inventor of the www, neither one of them claims ownership AFAIK. Another
> story is the net and the US government. ;) The initial forrest code is
> coming from Nicola Ken Barozzi and Ross Gardler has started the plugins
> both do not claim ownership neither do I with views aka v2 aka
> dispatcher, still the initial code came from this people.
I think the concern is that we shouldn't name the people responsible.
All the above mentioned people are more than welcome to claim their
contributions on a private site, the question seems to be whether
forrest.a.o should highlight individuals' contributions or be content
with highlighting the applications new features (that happened to be
developed by a contributor who is appropriately acknowledged in all
the above mentioned places).
> Doing some research on the forrest history for my presentation I noticed
> that we are starting to hide historical facts and motives.
You seem to be implying something here but I won't take a guess at
what it is. Maybe it's a language thing but questioning "motives" is
fairly serious in implying someone has an ulterior one. I hope that's
not what you really mean...
>I know we
> still have all this information but it is well hidden (e.g. [1]).
Another stale example. That's actually a good example of why what you
suggest at the end of this email is not such a good idea -- it has no
real chance of being maintained.
> Why?
>
> I strongly agree with "none of it would be possible without the rest of
> us" but one should not confuse one thing from the other.
>
> Like the very first dispatcher site ever online is from Diwaker Gupta
> [2], helping us (especially me, back then) to demonstrate that one can
> use the dispatcher in production. It was the very first version
> codename: view. Thanks again Diwaker.
>
> I like history and the humanity would be nothing if not people would
> have kept track when and how something happen.
Forrest has some of the best history I could think of -- *much* better
than any history book I've ever read. It's got SVN logs, SVN blame,
mail archives, and changes.html. If we're ever a famous project the
historian that writes our book will have it too easy;)
> Do not get me wrong but I would like to start a history page about
> forrest (here) and keeping track of who did what, because it helps to
> understand us currently as project and where we are heading.
>
> wdyt?
I think that's a bad idea because it's destined to become an unread,
unmaintained page floating about giving misinformation to the masses.
I think svn logs, svn blame, and mail archives gives the history for
geeks that care. [1] gives the history for the rest of folks.
> BTW why do we versioning old docu? ;)
So that folks can always 'svn revert' when I goof up? ;) Because we
have users that haven't yet upgraded to the latest version.
Having said all this, I personally think that David's change was a bit
hasty. We don't sensor anyone else's "live-site" contribution, why
would we filter our own fellow committer? If Thorsten wants that to
be his tag line for his personal site, what say to do we have in that?
It's his personal web site.
Since we as the PMC actually endorse all other content on the site,
maybe this live-sites page needs a disclaimer at the top saying that
the Forrest PMC, commiters, and developers provide these links for
examples and information only - we do not endorse any particular
product, service, or information linked from this page?
--tim
[1] - http://forrest.apache.org/docs_0_80/changes.html