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Posted to dev@community.apache.org by Spaghetti Roulette <Sp...@mail.com> on 2017/03/19 08:27:51 UTC
Apache and Java
Why do Apache projects use Java so extensively? It looks to me that a lot of projects, if not most of them, are written in Java, and I can't get my head around this fact. Is there any reason, perhaps technical, or is it just coincidence?
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Re: Apache and Java
Posted by Chris Mattmann <ma...@apache.org>.
Folks may want to check out the analysis that Karanjeet Singh and I did with DRAT
regarding Apache projects, and their code diversity:
http://drat.dyndns.org:8080/dratviz/
DRAT is here:
http://github.com/chrismattmann/drat/
Thanks for listening.
Chris
On 3/19/17, 12:57 PM, "Christopher" <ct...@apache.org> wrote:
I think you've got the question backwards. The ASF does not really create
projects. Projects create development communities at ASF. So, I think the
real question should be: what makes Apache so appealing to Java-based
projects?
I think the answer to that question is probably "the same things that make
it appealing to any other project". I don't think the ASF is particularly
suited for Java projects over any other language. The prevalence of Java
here is probably mostly historical, with some projects following the build
tooling (ant, ivy, maven) and dependencies (tomcat, commons), because
they've seen the success of those projects they depend on here.
Java itself also probably has something to do with it... Java is a popular
language and it's going to have a high representation in any sufficiently
large community. Java is also prone to modularization with a high number of
smaller projects than fewer larger ones.
It's also possible that Java is just an easier language to build a
community around?
In short, it's probably not just coincidence; there's probably some causal
reasons, but I don't think it matters much, because the ASF doesn't
prescribe languages.
On Sun, Mar 19, 2017, 04:33 Spaghetti Roulette <Sp...@mail.com>
wrote:
> Why do Apache projects use Java so extensively? It looks to me that a lot
> of projects, if not most of them, are written in Java, and I can't get my
> head around this fact. Is there any reason, perhaps technical, or is it
> just coincidence?
>
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RE: Apache and Java
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <or...@apache.org>.
I think, if you look at the DRAT diagrams that Chris Mattmann provided up-thread, there is another factor that can figure into the someone asking the original question.
If someone, especially a student or recent-graduate, has skills in a particular development and language approach, and is looking for a project where they might be able to contribute (and do some open-source resume building), having Java chops unlocks pay-dirt here. Also, ASF projects are friendly to new contributors (and may support GSOC proposals).
Hence, some of the network effect.
It would be interesting to know what contrast there might be in something like the DRAT analysis of (non-ASF-mirror) GitHub repositories for project that use ALv2 or a Category A license.
- Dennis
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mohammad Noureldin [mailto:nour.mohammad@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2017 13:23
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Apache and Java
[ ... ]
>
> @Spaghetti Roulette: I am wondering why did this confuse you in the
> first
> place ? Do you have an idea that you would like to bring to ASF that is
> implemented in Java ?
>
[ ... ]
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Re: Apache and Java
Posted by Mohammad Noureldin <no...@gmail.com>.
Hi
I believe also it might have to do with timing reasons.
When Open Source software started to prove by time that it can get people
together to produce high quality software that different
businesses/enterprises can trust to operate their business, Java/JEE was
at the center of the hype, and it was adopted by many businesses, and still.
Given Tomcat was becoming more and more popular as a big success story of
Open Source, and the word spread about ASF as a friendly Open Source
community, that helped in attracting more and more projects.
This plus other reasons, already mentioned in this thread and more, might
have played a role in making it look like as ASF is only a place for Java
based projects.
ASF does not mandate or require a project to be implemented in Java more
than any other programming language or platform more than it cares about
making sure that the community built around a project is healthy and
growing (if possible)
@Spaghetti Roulette: I am wondering why did this confuse you in the first
place ? Do you have an idea that you would like to bring to ASF that is not
implemented in Java ?
On Mar 19, 2017 20:57, "Christopher" <ct...@apache.org> wrote:
> I think you've got the question backwards. The ASF does not really create
> projects. Projects create development communities at ASF. So, I think the
> real question should be: what makes Apache so appealing to Java-based
> projects?
>
> I think the answer to that question is probably "the same things that make
> it appealing to any other project". I don't think the ASF is particularly
> suited for Java projects over any other language. The prevalence of Java
> here is probably mostly historical, with some projects following the build
> tooling (ant, ivy, maven) and dependencies (tomcat, commons), because
> they've seen the success of those projects they depend on here.
>
> Java itself also probably has something to do with it... Java is a popular
> language and it's going to have a high representation in any sufficiently
> large community. Java is also prone to modularization with a high number of
> smaller projects than fewer larger ones.
>
> It's also possible that Java is just an easier language to build a
> community around?
>
> In short, it's probably not just coincidence; there's probably some causal
> reasons, but I don't think it matters much, because the ASF doesn't
> prescribe languages.
>
> On Sun, Mar 19, 2017, 04:33 Spaghetti Roulette <SpaghettiRoulette@mail.com
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Why do Apache projects use Java so extensively? It looks to me that a lot
> > of projects, if not most of them, are written in Java, and I can't get my
> > head around this fact. Is there any reason, perhaps technical, or is it
> > just coincidence?
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >
> >
>
Re: Apache and Java
Posted by Christopher <ct...@apache.org>.
I think you've got the question backwards. The ASF does not really create
projects. Projects create development communities at ASF. So, I think the
real question should be: what makes Apache so appealing to Java-based
projects?
I think the answer to that question is probably "the same things that make
it appealing to any other project". I don't think the ASF is particularly
suited for Java projects over any other language. The prevalence of Java
here is probably mostly historical, with some projects following the build
tooling (ant, ivy, maven) and dependencies (tomcat, commons), because
they've seen the success of those projects they depend on here.
Java itself also probably has something to do with it... Java is a popular
language and it's going to have a high representation in any sufficiently
large community. Java is also prone to modularization with a high number of
smaller projects than fewer larger ones.
It's also possible that Java is just an easier language to build a
community around?
In short, it's probably not just coincidence; there's probably some causal
reasons, but I don't think it matters much, because the ASF doesn't
prescribe languages.
On Sun, Mar 19, 2017, 04:33 Spaghetti Roulette <Sp...@mail.com>
wrote:
> Why do Apache projects use Java so extensively? It looks to me that a lot
> of projects, if not most of them, are written in Java, and I can't get my
> head around this fact. Is there any reason, perhaps technical, or is it
> just coincidence?
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
>
Re: Apache and Java
Posted by Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>.
Java is a good language choice if you want object orientated programming
support and are targeting multiple platforms. That is likely to be the
case for many Apache projects.
Apache OpenOffice is mainly C++. It has an unpleasantly complicated
configuration process and multiple sets of build instructions to deal
with generating code for different platforms.
On 03/19/2017 01:27 AM, Spaghetti Roulette wrote:
> Why do Apache projects use Java so extensively? It looks to me that a lot of projects, if not most of them, are written in Java, and I can't get my head around this fact. Is there any reason, perhaps technical, or is it just coincidence?
>
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Re: Apache and Java
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
First of all, we don't want language wars here, and as you correctly point
out, the language is a tool and more often than not it isn't the "problem
at hand" that defines which language to use, but which language most people
in the group are good at. And some languages are harder to be good at, and
that would also indirectly play a role. I seldom see "language features" as
a direct drive, although it happens, such as choosing Erlang for its Actor
model or dynamic types of Ruby or JavaScript. But it is almost always more
common to start "who do we have on the team". Then of course there are some
crazy companies that create their own generic language for their own use (I
worked at one such company that had more than 1 in-house language in their
portfolio)...
For Apache, most projects here had a "start" somewhere else and then "came
to ASF", so there is no "we (the ASF) should have done X in language Y"
instead. However, there are examples of language "regrets" expressed by
project founders or the surviving community. I recall seeing Damien Katz
say he regretted choosing Erlang because of both performance as well as not
easy to find people to help out. Apache Storm is in Clojure and they are
taking a 'clone in java' into the project as their version 2.0, if I
understand it correctly.
In general, projects of any language, or "many languages", are welcome at
Apache. And hopefully we will be able to get that message out better in the
future.
On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 5:10 PM, Sagiruddin Mondal <sa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> A quick thought I want to add .. can we extend this discussion for,
>
> 1. What ASF project should have been done in other language apart from JAVA
> ? and Why ?
> 2. In the current time JAVA is massive but what feature is lacking in java
> which gives other language a chance to this sport event ?
>
>
> PS. I do not see any language matters when we are solving a problem.
> Language is just a medium and all the languages are the more or less in the
> same plane in this case. But a lot of attendees to ASF are quite
> comfortable in JAVA could be another reason. Could not be ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
> Sagir
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>
> wrote:
>
> > I think it is a combination of several factors;
> >
> > * Historical - The first non-httpd project in Apache was Java, followed
> > by a handful of others.
> >
> > * Java is one of the big languages.
> >
> > * Some projects are spin-offs from other ASF projects
> >
> > * External Java projects knows Apache Java projects very well, through
> > Ant, Maven, Commons, Tomcat and many other they use. So if they seek a
> new
> > home, ASF is one of the obvious choices. For C/C++, C#, Ruby and Python,
> > this is not necessarily the case. There is often no natural tie between a
> > random solo project in these languages and ASF.
> >
> > * The above is creating a reinforcement feedback loop, giving the
> > impression that ASF is all about Java and perhaps overlooked for other
> > platforms when seeking a new home.
> >
> >
> > Hope that helps.
> > Niclas
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 4:27 PM, Spaghetti Roulette <
> > SpaghettiRoulette@mail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Why do Apache projects use Java so extensively? It looks to me that a
> lot
> > > of projects, if not most of them, are written in Java, and I can't get
> my
> > > head around this fact. Is there any reason, perhaps technical, or is it
> > > just coincidence?
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> > http://polygene.apache.org <http://zest.apache.org> - New Energy for
> Java
> >
>
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://polygene.apache.org <http://zest.apache.org> - New Energy for Java
Re: Apache and Java
Posted by Sagiruddin Mondal <sa...@gmail.com>.
A quick thought I want to add .. can we extend this discussion for,
1. What ASF project should have been done in other language apart from JAVA
? and Why ?
2. In the current time JAVA is massive but what feature is lacking in java
which gives other language a chance to this sport event ?
PS. I do not see any language matters when we are solving a problem.
Language is just a medium and all the languages are the more or less in the
same plane in this case. But a lot of attendees to ASF are quite
comfortable in JAVA could be another reason. Could not be ?
Best Regards,
Sagir
On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 2:33 PM, Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:
> I think it is a combination of several factors;
>
> * Historical - The first non-httpd project in Apache was Java, followed
> by a handful of others.
>
> * Java is one of the big languages.
>
> * Some projects are spin-offs from other ASF projects
>
> * External Java projects knows Apache Java projects very well, through
> Ant, Maven, Commons, Tomcat and many other they use. So if they seek a new
> home, ASF is one of the obvious choices. For C/C++, C#, Ruby and Python,
> this is not necessarily the case. There is often no natural tie between a
> random solo project in these languages and ASF.
>
> * The above is creating a reinforcement feedback loop, giving the
> impression that ASF is all about Java and perhaps overlooked for other
> platforms when seeking a new home.
>
>
> Hope that helps.
> Niclas
>
> On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 4:27 PM, Spaghetti Roulette <
> SpaghettiRoulette@mail.com> wrote:
>
> > Why do Apache projects use Java so extensively? It looks to me that a lot
> > of projects, if not most of them, are written in Java, and I can't get my
> > head around this fact. Is there any reason, perhaps technical, or is it
> > just coincidence?
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> http://polygene.apache.org <http://zest.apache.org> - New Energy for Java
>
Re: Apache and Java
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
It doesn't matter that the ASF has a lot of Java code. What matters is
that a lot of communities who wrote Java tools decided to come to the
ASF to build their projects here.
The ASF exists to create software for the public good, and we do that by
supporting the projects who want to be here. So we don't 'officially'
go out recruiting for any particular projects - but we can (as we're
doing now) make it clear that the ASF is happy to host any technologies,
as long as their community wants to work in the Apache Way and come to
the ASF.
Herv BOUTEMY wrote on 3/19/17 5:15 AM:
> +1
> just a little addition: "Java at Apache" was called Jakarta
Jakarta was one of the first PMCs at Apache in Sept, 1999, along with
the XML PMC (which is how I got my start at the ASF).
https://jakarta.apache.org/
Jakarta was a great project that got a lot of Java-based tools and
communities started. As it grew, the set of people working on the
various tools diverged so much that it was hard for the PMC to
effectively govern all the different projects together. That's what the
ASF calls an "umbrella project", where there's one PMC, but it's really
many different communities and codebases.
Thus, the various tools spun off into their own top level projects, so
that each PMC community was made of people who regularly worked on their
specific codebase - Ant, Logging, Maven, Struts, etc.
>
> I don't know if newbies know about Jakarta nowadays, but Jakarta was the home
> for so many tools that became later independant Apache Top Level Projects
>
> Regards,
>
> Herv
>
> Le dimanche 19 mars 2017, 17:03:09 CET Niclas Hedhman a crit :
>> I think it is a combination of several factors;
>>
>> * Historical - The first non-httpd project in Apache was Java, followed
>> by a handful of others.
>>
>> * Java is one of the big languages.
>>
>> * Some projects are spin-offs from other ASF projects
>>
>> * External Java projects knows Apache Java projects very well, through
>> Ant, Maven, Commons, Tomcat and many other they use. So if they seek a new
>> home, ASF is one of the obvious choices. For C/C++, C#, Ruby and Python,
>> this is not necessarily the case. There is often no natural tie between a
>> random solo project in these languages and ASF.
>>
>> * The above is creating a reinforcement feedback loop, giving the
>> impression that ASF is all about Java and perhaps overlooked for other
>> platforms when seeking a new home.
>>
>>
>> Hope that helps.
>> Niclas
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 4:27 PM, Spaghetti Roulette <
>>
>> SpaghettiRoulette@mail.com> wrote:
>>> Why do Apache projects use Java so extensively? It looks to me that a lot
>>> of projects, if not most of them, are written in Java, and I can't get my
>>> head around this fact. Is there any reason, perhaps technical, or is it
>>> just coincidence?
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
--
- Shane
https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/resources
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Re: Apache and Java
Posted by Hervé BOUTEMY <he...@free.fr>.
+1
just a little addition: "Java at Apache" was called Jakarta
I don't know if newbies know about Jakarta nowadays, but Jakarta was the home
for so many tools that became later independant Apache Top Level Projects
Regards,
Hervé
Le dimanche 19 mars 2017, 17:03:09 CET Niclas Hedhman a écrit :
> I think it is a combination of several factors;
>
> * Historical - The first non-httpd project in Apache was Java, followed
> by a handful of others.
>
> * Java is one of the big languages.
>
> * Some projects are spin-offs from other ASF projects
>
> * External Java projects knows Apache Java projects very well, through
> Ant, Maven, Commons, Tomcat and many other they use. So if they seek a new
> home, ASF is one of the obvious choices. For C/C++, C#, Ruby and Python,
> this is not necessarily the case. There is often no natural tie between a
> random solo project in these languages and ASF.
>
> * The above is creating a reinforcement feedback loop, giving the
> impression that ASF is all about Java and perhaps overlooked for other
> platforms when seeking a new home.
>
>
> Hope that helps.
> Niclas
>
> On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 4:27 PM, Spaghetti Roulette <
>
> SpaghettiRoulette@mail.com> wrote:
> > Why do Apache projects use Java so extensively? It looks to me that a lot
> > of projects, if not most of them, are written in Java, and I can't get my
> > head around this fact. Is there any reason, perhaps technical, or is it
> > just coincidence?
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
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Re: Apache and Java
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
I think it is a combination of several factors;
* Historical - The first non-httpd project in Apache was Java, followed
by a handful of others.
* Java is one of the big languages.
* Some projects are spin-offs from other ASF projects
* External Java projects knows Apache Java projects very well, through
Ant, Maven, Commons, Tomcat and many other they use. So if they seek a new
home, ASF is one of the obvious choices. For C/C++, C#, Ruby and Python,
this is not necessarily the case. There is often no natural tie between a
random solo project in these languages and ASF.
* The above is creating a reinforcement feedback loop, giving the
impression that ASF is all about Java and perhaps overlooked for other
platforms when seeking a new home.
Hope that helps.
Niclas
On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 4:27 PM, Spaghetti Roulette <
SpaghettiRoulette@mail.com> wrote:
> Why do Apache projects use Java so extensively? It looks to me that a lot
> of projects, if not most of them, are written in Java, and I can't get my
> head around this fact. Is there any reason, perhaps technical, or is it
> just coincidence?
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
>
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://polygene.apache.org <http://zest.apache.org> - New Energy for Java