Friendly RDF and Gremlin

[Danny Ayers <da...@gmail.com>]

Hi Henry,

I did have problems seeing the relevance of your work on friendly RDF
syntax to the Clerezza project, while it's good work the tie-in isn't
obvious. But I just had a demo of Gremlin from danbri, and now I think
there's a way of pulling this stuff together.
Gremlin is a little language for graph traversal which allows you to
walk the Web of data, node by node. The key part is that as you are
going through the graph, HTTP GETs are taking place. Get that into
your Friendly code and it's a winner!

The way I imagine it working is using the command line bits to visit
the parts of the published data from the point of view of a client - a
browser or crawler, hopefully more intelligent things too.

Check Dan's blog post (and the addendums in comments), I think you'll like this:

http://danbri.org/words/2011/05/10/675

Cheers,
Danny.

-- 
http://danny.ayers.name

Re: Friendly RDF and Gremlin

[Henry Story <he...@bblfish.net>]

On 12 May 2011, at 14:10, Danny Ayers wrote:

> Hi Henry,
> 
> I did have problems seeing the relevance of your work on friendly RDF
> syntax to the Clerezza project, while it's good work the tie-in isn't
> obvious.

It is just much nicer to read and write. A bit like the difference between
having to write NTriples and write n3. It makes the code more readable.


> But I just had a demo of Gremlin from danbri, and now I think
> there's a way of pulling this stuff together.
> Gremlin is a little language for graph traversal which allows you to
> walk the Web of data, node by node. The key part is that as you are
> going through the graph, HTTP GETs are taking place. Get that into
> your Friendly code and it's a winner!

I added the WebProxy in Clerezza which can fetch graphs and store them,
so one part of what is needed is done. IF we get XSPARQL, then writeing
transforms from any xml to rdf will be easy.

I am a bit wary of gremlin. It seems like it could eat up your hard drive 
in a very short while. But there is certainly something there.

With a few nicely written methods one could make it easier to walk the web.

Another thing one could do is just use N3. There is swap-scala out there written by Danc
last year. In N3 one can write these kinds of things very nciely.

> 
> The way I imagine it working is using the command line bits to visit
> the parts of the published data from the point of view of a client - a
> browser or crawler, hopefully more intelligent things too.
> 
> Check Dan's blog post (and the addendums in comments), I think you'll like this:
> 
> http://danbri.org/words/2011/05/10/675

thanks for the link. For now I need to focus on the simple things: blogging, pinging,
friends and webid. But those are good ideas to play around with. We should build the infrascructure
to make it possible.

Henry

> 
> Cheers,
> Danny.
> 
> -- 
> http://danny.ayers.name

Social Web Architect
http://bblfish.net/

Re: Friendly RDF and Gremlin

[Reto Bachmann-Gmuer <re...@trialox.org>]

Playing with the RDF DSL on the clerezza console. Accessing the
planet-rdf feed and exploring some nodes using the / and the /-
methods to traverse incoming and outgoing properties

The following works with the most recent launcher:

zz>:silent

zz>val planetRdf = $[TcManager].getGraph("http://planetrdf.com/index.rdf".uri)

zz>val rss = "http://purl.org/rss/1.0/".uri

zz>val preamble = new Preamble(planetRdf)

zz>import preamble._

zz>out.println("http://planetrdf.com/".uri/DC.date*)
2011-05-16T06:05:43.29Z

zz>out.println("http://planetrdf.com/".uri/(rss+'description)*)
It's triples all the way down

zz>out.println(((rss+'item)/-RDF.`type`).size)
28

zz>out.println((rss+'item)/-RDF.`type`/(rss+'title)*)
SPARQL 1.1 Query: negated property sets and the
algebra

zz>for (item <- (rss+'item)/-RDF.`type`) {out.println(item/(rss+'title)*)}
SPARQL 1.1 Query: negated property sets and the
algebra
Editorial ACSRDF2010 online (on RDF in chemistry)
Importing RDF input in R for analysis
Radify – RDFa Annotation Tool
...



Reto



On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 8:07 PM, Danny Ayers <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As usual you're way ahead of me Reto (not a big compliment, the dogs are too).
>
> Didn't know about the DSL.
>
> But clerezza must tick some boxes for it to be worthwhile: science
> project, tick. Blog engine is a tick, but no more a big one, Facebook
> won that game. Doing ID well is a good tick, but not if it's just some
> random project on github.
>
> I like the raw engine of HTTP, but that can be satisfied by sticking a
> 4-bit chip up my dog's bum (sorry Sasha).
>
> Reto, I want to find Clerezza so compelling I have no choice. Hoppity.
>
> On 12 May 2011 19:50, Reto Bachmann-Gmuer <re...@trialox.org> wrote:
>> On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Danny Ayers <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Right, but the auth distinction could be made along similar lines to
>>> http/https - it's orthogonal. I do think at some point we end up
>>> caching graphs (and their provenance to, I hope) but the bit I like
>>> about danbri's Gremlin play is that it's a really stateless wander.
>>> Starting from the assumption that the graph is public, we go and forth
>>> as we choose.
>> I don't think an implementation without caching is possible. What
>> happens when you iterate through properties, an rdf:List or retrieve
>> the properties of neigbouring nodes that have a hash or is bnode, I
>> assume in all these cases only one request is made an then it is
>> cached.
>>
>>>
>>> You know I'm a big fan of SPARQL, but the Gremlin approach really does
>>> seem to render a lot of that redundant. Ok, maybe while you're walking
>>> the Web you might want to pass the data into a local SQL DB (for
>>> example), but being able to walk the paths could be really useful.
>> Tha's exactly the approach of the clerezza RDF DSL you use / and /- to
>> wander through the nodes, adding a virtual Semweb graph (GGG) that
>> dereferences resources is trivial with or without caching (but with no
>> caching at all you would have sever limitations). Curious what the
>> caching policy of Gremlin is.
>>
>>> SPARQL 1.1 has path stuff, looks good on paper, but let's say you've
>>> set up your eCommerce site, being able to walk with data spectacles on
>>> looks good to me.
>> exactly.
>>
>> Reto
>>
>>>
>>> On 12 May 2011 14:57, Reto Bachmann-Gmuer <re...@trialox.org> wrote:
>>>> HI,
>>>>
>>>> The .in .out seem to be equivalent to / and /- in graphnode. Now for
>>>> navigating the web-of data we could simply add a virtual graph that
>>>> dereferences named resources in a triple pattern adding the triples to
>>>> a cache. A simple solution for authority would be the MSG, this
>>>> wouldn't prevent me from saying that you know me and for this triple
>>>> to be in the virtual graph as if you had asserted it but it would
>>>> prevent me from linking two named resource without having authority
>>>> (i.e. control resolution of the uri-space) over at least one of them.
>>>> Another approach would to limit authority to the non-symmetric CBD
>>>> (expanding only objects but not subjects) of the dereferenced
>>>> resource.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Reto
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Danny Ayers <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Henry,
>>>>>
>>>>> I did have problems seeing the relevance of your work on friendly RDF
>>>>> syntax to the Clerezza project, while it's good work the tie-in isn't
>>>>> obvious. But I just had a demo of Gremlin from danbri, and now I think
>>>>> there's a way of pulling this stuff together.
>>>>> Gremlin is a little language for graph traversal which allows you to
>>>>> walk the Web of data, node by node. The key part is that as you are
>>>>> going through the graph, HTTP GETs are taking place. Get that into
>>>>> your Friendly code and it's a winner!
>>>>>
>>>>> The way I imagine it working is using the command line bits to visit
>>>>> the parts of the published data from the point of view of a client - a
>>>>> browser or crawler, hopefully more intelligent things too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Check Dan's blog post (and the addendums in comments), I think you'll like this:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://danbri.org/words/2011/05/10/675
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Danny.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> http://danny.ayers.name
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> http://danny.ayers.name
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://danny.ayers.name
>

Re: Friendly RDF and Gremlin

[Danny Ayers <da...@gmail.com>]

As usual you're way ahead of me Reto (not a big compliment, the dogs are too).

Didn't know about the DSL.

But clerezza must tick some boxes for it to be worthwhile: science
project, tick. Blog engine is a tick, but no more a big one, Facebook
won that game. Doing ID well is a good tick, but not if it's just some
random project on github.

I like the raw engine of HTTP, but that can be satisfied by sticking a
4-bit chip up my dog's bum (sorry Sasha).

Reto, I want to find Clerezza so compelling I have no choice. Hoppity.

On 12 May 2011 19:50, Reto Bachmann-Gmuer <re...@trialox.org> wrote:
> On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Danny Ayers <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Right, but the auth distinction could be made along similar lines to
>> http/https - it's orthogonal. I do think at some point we end up
>> caching graphs (and their provenance to, I hope) but the bit I like
>> about danbri's Gremlin play is that it's a really stateless wander.
>> Starting from the assumption that the graph is public, we go and forth
>> as we choose.
> I don't think an implementation without caching is possible. What
> happens when you iterate through properties, an rdf:List or retrieve
> the properties of neigbouring nodes that have a hash or is bnode, I
> assume in all these cases only one request is made an then it is
> cached.
>
>>
>> You know I'm a big fan of SPARQL, but the Gremlin approach really does
>> seem to render a lot of that redundant. Ok, maybe while you're walking
>> the Web you might want to pass the data into a local SQL DB (for
>> example), but being able to walk the paths could be really useful.
> Tha's exactly the approach of the clerezza RDF DSL you use / and /- to
> wander through the nodes, adding a virtual Semweb graph (GGG) that
> dereferences resources is trivial with or without caching (but with no
> caching at all you would have sever limitations). Curious what the
> caching policy of Gremlin is.
>
>> SPARQL 1.1 has path stuff, looks good on paper, but let's say you've
>> set up your eCommerce site, being able to walk with data spectacles on
>> looks good to me.
> exactly.
>
> Reto
>
>>
>> On 12 May 2011 14:57, Reto Bachmann-Gmuer <re...@trialox.org> wrote:
>>> HI,
>>>
>>> The .in .out seem to be equivalent to / and /- in graphnode. Now for
>>> navigating the web-of data we could simply add a virtual graph that
>>> dereferences named resources in a triple pattern adding the triples to
>>> a cache. A simple solution for authority would be the MSG, this
>>> wouldn't prevent me from saying that you know me and for this triple
>>> to be in the virtual graph as if you had asserted it but it would
>>> prevent me from linking two named resource without having authority
>>> (i.e. control resolution of the uri-space) over at least one of them.
>>> Another approach would to limit authority to the non-symmetric CBD
>>> (expanding only objects but not subjects) of the dereferenced
>>> resource.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Reto
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Danny Ayers <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Henry,
>>>>
>>>> I did have problems seeing the relevance of your work on friendly RDF
>>>> syntax to the Clerezza project, while it's good work the tie-in isn't
>>>> obvious. But I just had a demo of Gremlin from danbri, and now I think
>>>> there's a way of pulling this stuff together.
>>>> Gremlin is a little language for graph traversal which allows you to
>>>> walk the Web of data, node by node. The key part is that as you are
>>>> going through the graph, HTTP GETs are taking place. Get that into
>>>> your Friendly code and it's a winner!
>>>>
>>>> The way I imagine it working is using the command line bits to visit
>>>> the parts of the published data from the point of view of a client - a
>>>> browser or crawler, hopefully more intelligent things too.
>>>>
>>>> Check Dan's blog post (and the addendums in comments), I think you'll like this:
>>>>
>>>> http://danbri.org/words/2011/05/10/675
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Danny.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> http://danny.ayers.name
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://danny.ayers.name
>>
>



-- 
http://danny.ayers.name

Re: Friendly RDF and Gremlin

[Reto Bachmann-Gmuer <re...@trialox.org>]

On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Danny Ayers <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Right, but the auth distinction could be made along similar lines to
> http/https - it's orthogonal. I do think at some point we end up
> caching graphs (and their provenance to, I hope) but the bit I like
> about danbri's Gremlin play is that it's a really stateless wander.
> Starting from the assumption that the graph is public, we go and forth
> as we choose.
I don't think an implementation without caching is possible. What
happens when you iterate through properties, an rdf:List or retrieve
the properties of neigbouring nodes that have a hash or is bnode, I
assume in all these cases only one request is made an then it is
cached.

>
> You know I'm a big fan of SPARQL, but the Gremlin approach really does
> seem to render a lot of that redundant. Ok, maybe while you're walking
> the Web you might want to pass the data into a local SQL DB (for
> example), but being able to walk the paths could be really useful.
Tha's exactly the approach of the clerezza RDF DSL you use / and /- to
wander through the nodes, adding a virtual Semweb graph (GGG) that
dereferences resources is trivial with or without caching (but with no
caching at all you would have sever limitations). Curious what the
caching policy of Gremlin is.

> SPARQL 1.1 has path stuff, looks good on paper, but let's say you've
> set up your eCommerce site, being able to walk with data spectacles on
> looks good to me.
exactly.

Reto

>
> On 12 May 2011 14:57, Reto Bachmann-Gmuer <re...@trialox.org> wrote:
>> HI,
>>
>> The .in .out seem to be equivalent to / and /- in graphnode. Now for
>> navigating the web-of data we could simply add a virtual graph that
>> dereferences named resources in a triple pattern adding the triples to
>> a cache. A simple solution for authority would be the MSG, this
>> wouldn't prevent me from saying that you know me and for this triple
>> to be in the virtual graph as if you had asserted it but it would
>> prevent me from linking two named resource without having authority
>> (i.e. control resolution of the uri-space) over at least one of them.
>> Another approach would to limit authority to the non-symmetric CBD
>> (expanding only objects but not subjects) of the dereferenced
>> resource.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Reto
>>
>> On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Danny Ayers <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi Henry,
>>>
>>> I did have problems seeing the relevance of your work on friendly RDF
>>> syntax to the Clerezza project, while it's good work the tie-in isn't
>>> obvious. But I just had a demo of Gremlin from danbri, and now I think
>>> there's a way of pulling this stuff together.
>>> Gremlin is a little language for graph traversal which allows you to
>>> walk the Web of data, node by node. The key part is that as you are
>>> going through the graph, HTTP GETs are taking place. Get that into
>>> your Friendly code and it's a winner!
>>>
>>> The way I imagine it working is using the command line bits to visit
>>> the parts of the published data from the point of view of a client - a
>>> browser or crawler, hopefully more intelligent things too.
>>>
>>> Check Dan's blog post (and the addendums in comments), I think you'll like this:
>>>
>>> http://danbri.org/words/2011/05/10/675
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Danny.
>>>
>>> --
>>> http://danny.ayers.name
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://danny.ayers.name
>

Re: Friendly RDF and Gremlin

[Danny Ayers <da...@gmail.com>]

Right, but the auth distinction could be made along similar lines to
http/https - it's orthogonal. I do think at some point we end up
caching graphs (and their provenance to, I hope) but the bit I like
about danbri's Gremlin play is that it's a really stateless wander.
Starting from the assumption that the graph is public, we go and forth
as we choose.

You know I'm a big fan of SPARQL, but the Gremlin approach really does
seem to render a lot of that redundant. Ok, maybe while you're walking
the Web you might want to pass the data into a local SQL DB (for
example), but being able to walk the paths could be really useful.
SPARQL 1.1 has path stuff, looks good on paper, but let's say you've
set up your eCommerce site, being able to walk with data spectacles on
looks good to me.

On 12 May 2011 14:57, Reto Bachmann-Gmuer <re...@trialox.org> wrote:
> HI,
>
> The .in .out seem to be equivalent to / and /- in graphnode. Now for
> navigating the web-of data we could simply add a virtual graph that
> dereferences named resources in a triple pattern adding the triples to
> a cache. A simple solution for authority would be the MSG, this
> wouldn't prevent me from saying that you know me and for this triple
> to be in the virtual graph as if you had asserted it but it would
> prevent me from linking two named resource without having authority
> (i.e. control resolution of the uri-space) over at least one of them.
> Another approach would to limit authority to the non-symmetric CBD
> (expanding only objects but not subjects) of the dereferenced
> resource.
>
> Cheers,
> Reto
>
> On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Danny Ayers <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Henry,
>>
>> I did have problems seeing the relevance of your work on friendly RDF
>> syntax to the Clerezza project, while it's good work the tie-in isn't
>> obvious. But I just had a demo of Gremlin from danbri, and now I think
>> there's a way of pulling this stuff together.
>> Gremlin is a little language for graph traversal which allows you to
>> walk the Web of data, node by node. The key part is that as you are
>> going through the graph, HTTP GETs are taking place. Get that into
>> your Friendly code and it's a winner!
>>
>> The way I imagine it working is using the command line bits to visit
>> the parts of the published data from the point of view of a client - a
>> browser or crawler, hopefully more intelligent things too.
>>
>> Check Dan's blog post (and the addendums in comments), I think you'll like this:
>>
>> http://danbri.org/words/2011/05/10/675
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Danny.
>>
>> --
>> http://danny.ayers.name
>>
>



-- 
http://danny.ayers.name

Re: Friendly RDF and Gremlin

[Reto Bachmann-Gmuer <re...@trialox.org>]

HI,

The .in .out seem to be equivalent to / and /- in graphnode. Now for
navigating the web-of data we could simply add a virtual graph that
dereferences named resources in a triple pattern adding the triples to
a cache. A simple solution for authority would be the MSG, this
wouldn't prevent me from saying that you know me and for this triple
to be in the virtual graph as if you had asserted it but it would
prevent me from linking two named resource without having authority
(i.e. control resolution of the uri-space) over at least one of them.
Another approach would to limit authority to the non-symmetric CBD
(expanding only objects but not subjects) of the dereferenced
resource.

Cheers,
Reto

On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Danny Ayers <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Henry,
>
> I did have problems seeing the relevance of your work on friendly RDF
> syntax to the Clerezza project, while it's good work the tie-in isn't
> obvious. But I just had a demo of Gremlin from danbri, and now I think
> there's a way of pulling this stuff together.
> Gremlin is a little language for graph traversal which allows you to
> walk the Web of data, node by node. The key part is that as you are
> going through the graph, HTTP GETs are taking place. Get that into
> your Friendly code and it's a winner!
>
> The way I imagine it working is using the command line bits to visit
> the parts of the published data from the point of view of a client - a
> browser or crawler, hopefully more intelligent things too.
>
> Check Dan's blog post (and the addendums in comments), I think you'll like this:
>
> http://danbri.org/words/2011/05/10/675
>
> Cheers,
> Danny.
>
> --
> http://danny.ayers.name
>