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Posted to users@tomcat.apache.org by John Villar <jo...@florhard.com> on 2004/09/15 22:07:52 UTC
Why tomcat 4 or even 3?
A question to everyone out there..... why does anyone use nowadays
Tomcat 4 branch?..... isn't tomcat 5 branch more bug free, featurefull
and backwards compatible?
that question has haunted me from the beginning of joining this list.....
--
John Villar
Gerente de Proyectos
Computadores Flor Hard Soft 2058 C.A.
www.florhard.com
Re: Why tomcat 4 or even 3?
Posted by er...@swapsimple.com.
On Wed, Sep 15, 2004 at 04:07:52PM -0400, John Villar wrote:
> A question to everyone out there..... why does anyone use nowadays
> Tomcat 4 branch?..... isn't tomcat 5 branch more bug free, featurefull
> and backwards compatible?
Perhaps because the tomcat home page seems to encourage the use
of the old versions? Tomcat 3, 4 and 5 are placed mostly on a equal
footing, especially with the language that says to see "the detail below
to help you determine which one is right for you". Also the table of
Serlet/JSP spec to Tomcat version could imply, at first glance, that
a JSP 1.2 app can't use tomcat 5 (which of course is completely false).
eric
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Re: Why tomcat 4 or even 3?
Posted by Ben Souther <bs...@fwdco.com>.
> RTFM Consulting Services Inc
Beautiful. I wish I thought of it.
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Re: Why tomcat 4 or even 3?
Posted by Chuck Chopp <ch...@rtfmcsi.com>.
Wendy Smoak wrote:
> From: "John Villar" <jo...@florhard.com>
>
>>i don't think that every T4 user has HP-UX
>
>
> No... by my count, I think there are three of us. :)
>
And don't forget me... I'm the guy who runs Tomcat on OpenVMS on an HP Alpha
system [well, really I think of them as DEC Alpha, not as Compaq Alpha or
even as HP Alpha] and I have the same problem with Tomcat v4.1.x being the
only version that HP provides for me to use. As such, I continue to use
Tomcat v4.1.x on my WinXP development system, too. I also run it on
NetWare, and it seems that Tomcat there, too, is still at v4.1.x as v5
hasn't been provided by Novell.
--
Chuck Chopp
ChuckChopp (at) rtfmcsi (dot) com http://www.rtfmcsi.com
RTFM Consulting Services Inc. 864 801 2795 voice & voicemail
103 Autumn Hill Road 864 801 2774 fax
Greer, SC 29651
Do not send me unsolicited commercial email.
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Re: Why tomcat 4 or even 3?
Posted by Wendy Smoak <ja...@wendysmoak.com>.
From: "John Villar" <jo...@florhard.com>
> i don't think that every T4 user has HP-UX
No... by my count, I think there are three of us. :)
--
Wendy Smoak
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Re: Why tomcat 4 or even 3?
Posted by Pablo Lillia <pl...@adea.com.ar>.
Sometimes one dont need to be faster.
I'm talking about a old legacy app (not critical - intranet), running
very well for a couple of years in the same old server.
John Villar escribió:
> Yep, that's true.... but T5 is way faster than T4 or T3.... and is
> comparable to Apache (Yoav's word, not threefold speeds anymore LOL)
>
> John Villar
> Gerente de Proyectos
> Computadores Flor Hard Soft 2058 C.A.
> www.florhard.com
>
>
...
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Re: Why tomcat 4 or even 3?
Posted by John Villar <jo...@florhard.com>.
Yep, that's true.... but T5 is way faster than T4 or T3.... and is
comparable to Apache (Yoav's word, not threefold speeds anymore LOL)
John Villar
Gerente de Proyectos
Computadores Flor Hard Soft 2058 C.A.
www.florhard.com
Pablo Lillia escribió:
> Sometimes there are old sw, in old servers, that was not upgraded for
> some (stupid?) reason.
>
> Some examples:
> - if the client does not pay for the upgrade
> - if there are a old compiled webapp that cannot be replaced
>
> Regards,
> Paul
>
> John Villar escribió:
>
>> Hmm.... that seems a valid argument.... however, i want to know what
>> every other person in the mailing list says..... i don't think that
>> every T4 user has HP-UX (its a posibillity, however, i've seen
>> comments like "i run tomcat 4.1.x on W2K")
>>
>> John Villar
>> Gerente de Proyectos
>> Computadores Flor Hard Soft 2058 C.A.
>> www.florhard.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Wendy Smoak escribió:
>>
>>> From: "John Villar" <jo...@florhard.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>> A question to everyone out there..... why does anyone use nowadays
>>>> Tomcat 4 branch?..... isn't tomcat 5 branch more bug free, featurefull
>>>> and backwards compatible?
>>>> that question has haunted me from the beginning of joining this
>>>> list.....
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Because we're on HP-UX and they have not yet officially blessed
>>> Tomcat 5.
>>> That, and Tomcat 4 works perfectly well, I haven't found sufficient
>>> motivation to test everything on TC5 and start developing with the new
>>> features yet.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
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>
>
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>
>
Re: Why tomcat 4 or even 3?
Posted by Pablo Lillia <pl...@adea.com.ar>.
Sometimes there are old sw, in old servers, that was not upgraded for
some (stupid?) reason.
Some examples:
- if the client does not pay for the upgrade
- if there are a old compiled webapp that cannot be replaced
Regards,
Paul
John Villar escribió:
> Hmm.... that seems a valid argument.... however, i want to know what
> every other person in the mailing list says..... i don't think that
> every T4 user has HP-UX (its a posibillity, however, i've seen comments
> like "i run tomcat 4.1.x on W2K")
>
> John Villar
> Gerente de Proyectos
> Computadores Flor Hard Soft 2058 C.A.
> www.florhard.com
>
>
>
> Wendy Smoak escribió:
>
>> From: "John Villar" <jo...@florhard.com>
>>
>>
>>> A question to everyone out there..... why does anyone use nowadays
>>> Tomcat 4 branch?..... isn't tomcat 5 branch more bug free, featurefull
>>> and backwards compatible?
>>> that question has haunted me from the beginning of joining this
>>> list.....
>>>
>>
>>
>> Because we're on HP-UX and they have not yet officially blessed Tomcat 5.
>> That, and Tomcat 4 works perfectly well, I haven't found sufficient
>> motivation to test everything on TC5 and start developing with the new
>> features yet.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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Re: Why tomcat 4 or even 3?
Posted by John Villar <jo...@florhard.com>.
Hmm.... that seems a valid argument.... however, i want to know what
every other person in the mailing list says..... i don't think that
every T4 user has HP-UX (its a posibillity, however, i've seen comments
like "i run tomcat 4.1.x on W2K")
John Villar
Gerente de Proyectos
Computadores Flor Hard Soft 2058 C.A.
www.florhard.com
Wendy Smoak escribió:
>From: "John Villar" <jo...@florhard.com>
>
>
>>A question to everyone out there..... why does anyone use nowadays
>>Tomcat 4 branch?..... isn't tomcat 5 branch more bug free, featurefull
>>and backwards compatible?
>>that question has haunted me from the beginning of joining this list.....
>>
>>
>
>Because we're on HP-UX and they have not yet officially blessed Tomcat 5.
>That, and Tomcat 4 works perfectly well, I haven't found sufficient
>motivation to test everything on TC5 and start developing with the new
>features yet.
>
>
>
Re: Why tomcat 4 or even 3?
Posted by Tim Funk <fu...@joedog.org>.
I am in the process of moving from 4.0 to 5.0 on HPUX. So far - 5.0 has been
pretty sweet, here were the worst of my problems:
(1) Bad coder karma
<%page import="java.util.*,java.io.*,"%> will cause an error with the
trailing comma
(2) (more bad coder karma) Placing return statements in your JSP should be in
a conditional because if not, there is a much better chance that you'll get a
statement not reachable compile error.
(3) If have custom tags - there probably not tag pooling friendly, so turn
tag pooling off
(4) The incremental gc option on HP blew chunks. At least thats what it
seemed like when I was testing the server with that option turned on. I
haven't gone through extensive tuning yet. In general, if I give enough
memory to the JVM and make sure my kernel params are high enough - I stop
there. Perfomance has always been nice on their servers.
Why go to 5? My main reasons ...
- JSP2.0 -- EL
- User defined functions in EL
JSTL has made our code sooooo much easier to read. With 5 - now I can get rid
of all those <c:out> tags.
-Tim
Wendy Smoak wrote:
> From: "John Villar" <jo...@florhard.com>
>
>>A question to everyone out there..... why does anyone use nowadays
>>Tomcat 4 branch?..... isn't tomcat 5 branch more bug free, featurefull
>>and backwards compatible?
>>that question has haunted me from the beginning of joining this list.....
>
>
> Because we're on HP-UX and they have not yet officially blessed Tomcat 5.
> That, and Tomcat 4 works perfectly well, I haven't found sufficient
> motivation to test everything on TC5 and start developing with the new
> features yet.
>
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Re: Why tomcat 4 or even 3?
Posted by Wendy Smoak <ja...@wendysmoak.com>.
From: "John Villar" <jo...@florhard.com>
> A question to everyone out there..... why does anyone use nowadays
> Tomcat 4 branch?..... isn't tomcat 5 branch more bug free, featurefull
> and backwards compatible?
> that question has haunted me from the beginning of joining this list.....
Because we're on HP-UX and they have not yet officially blessed Tomcat 5.
That, and Tomcat 4 works perfectly well, I haven't found sufficient
motivation to test everything on TC5 and start developing with the new
features yet.
--
Wendy Smoak
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Re: Why tomcat 4 or even 3?
Posted by Pablo Lillia <pl...@adea.com.ar>.
John Villar escribió:
...
> the "recompile" problem: that wouldn't happen if you had a good software
> provider.... i'm against any provider that forces their customers to
> stick to an old dying tomcat revision.....
...
That's right. But, in real life, sometimes we have not choice :D
Good providers may go away too, or even turn in BAD providers...
In open source apps thats is not a big problem... But with closed
source... grasp!
BTW, I always recommend stay upgraded, "if that can be done" ;)
Regards,
Paul
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Re: Why tomcat 4 or even 3?
Posted by John Villar <jo...@florhard.com>.
I think you've got a point with the "afraid to upgrade".... however, i
think that the Tomcat community should fight this way of thinking to
minimize "maintainability", someone has to develop a side by side
Comparative brochure of tomcat 5 benefits..... maybe i'll write one. The
"don't feel the need to upgrade" issue is the principal "i've been
hacked" cause..... that's another benefit of upgrading, malicious users
have had less time to study vulnerabilities (off course, just stick with
the stable releases).....
the only true reason someone may stop from upgrading is the last
one..... however, pity those that depend on a specific tomcat release.....
the "recompile" problem: that wouldn't happen if you had a good software
provider.... i'm against any provider that forces their customers to
stick to an old dying tomcat revision.....
John Villar
Gerente de Proyectos
Computadores Flor Hard Soft 2058 C.A.
www.florhard.com
QM escribió:
>On Wed, Sep 15, 2004 at 04:07:52PM -0400, John Villar wrote:
>: A question to everyone out there..... why does anyone use nowadays
>: Tomcat 4 branch?.....
>
>Some more conservative shops intentionally lag behind on releases. The
>reasons range from "afraid to upgrade" to "don't feel the need to
>upgrade" or even "we've built a sizable architecture on an older rev and
>upgrading will be a monumental effort."
>
>
>
>: isn't tomcat 5 branch more bug free, featurefull
>: and backwards compatible?
>
>Yes and no. Even if the app used no features specific to Tomcat 4, you
>still have to rebuild the app to upgrade.
>
>-QM
>
>
>
Re: Why tomcat 4 or even 3?
Posted by QM <qm...@brandxdev.net>.
On Wed, Sep 15, 2004 at 04:07:52PM -0400, John Villar wrote:
: A question to everyone out there..... why does anyone use nowadays
: Tomcat 4 branch?.....
Some more conservative shops intentionally lag behind on releases. The
reasons range from "afraid to upgrade" to "don't feel the need to
upgrade" or even "we've built a sizable architecture on an older rev and
upgrading will be a monumental effort."
: isn't tomcat 5 branch more bug free, featurefull
: and backwards compatible?
Yes and no. Even if the app used no features specific to Tomcat 4, you
still have to rebuild the app to upgrade.
-QM
--
software -- http://www.brandxdev.net
tech news -- http://www.RoarNetworX.com
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Re: Why tomcat 4 or even 3?
Posted by Norris Shelton <no...@yahoo.com>.
Sometimes "we" developers have no choice on the version that we
run. "We" were upgraded from 4.1.12 to 4.1.30 last weekend.
This only happened because IT wanted to upgrade from SLES7 to
SLES8 and 4.1.30 is the version that YAAST had. If it had been
up to my part of the "We", we would have been on 5.0 a LONG time
ago.
I've only been harping to get a 5.0 development server for a
year and a half. It looks like I'm still at least 2 months
away.
Dang nabbit.
--- John Villar <jo...@florhard.com> wrote:
> A question to everyone out there..... why does anyone use
> nowadays
> Tomcat 4 branch?..... isn't tomcat 5 branch more bug free,
> featurefull
> and backwards compatible?
>
> that question has haunted me from the beginning of joining
> this list.....
>
> --
> John Villar
> Gerente de Proyectos
> Computadores Flor Hard Soft 2058 C.A.
> www.florhard.com
>
>
> >
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=====
Norris Shelton
Software Engineer
Sun Certified Java 1.1 Programmer
Appriss, Inc.
ICQ# 26487421
AIM NorrisEShelton
YIM norrisshelton
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