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Posted to labs@labs.apache.org by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org> on 2017/02/07 10:01:06 UTC
Revitalising Apache Labs
Right Labs subscribers, listen up...
At the last board meeting we were put on notice that we should stir
ourselves into action or be prepared to close down.
So I am looking for volunteers to do some outreach and awareness work with
commiters to see if we can generate wider participation in the debate about
our future, and hopefully from that to a proposal that would make labs
useful and relevant, and volunteers to execute it.
I'd now like to discuss possible activities here, agree a list of tasks and
find volunteers.
My proposal so far has..
First task is to revamp our website, to communicate that we are moving into
this phase.
Second task is to prep some permalinked content describing ourselves, e.g.
an ASF blog post
Third task is to draft an email to commiters@ linking to the blog post,
website, and perhaps a survey.
What do you think?
What other ideas do we have?
D.
Re: Revitalising Apache Labs
Posted by Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Roy T. Fielding <fi...@gbiv.com> wrote:
> FWIW, labs ceased to have any value for me when someone decided to delete the websites of prior labs due to inactivity.
I don't think there was a decision to delete any websites. I suspect
lab-specific sites just got lost in the move to the CMS. In other
words, a bug rather than a decision. Prolly we could ask infra to
hook it up pretty easily...
Thanks,
--tim
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Re: Revitalising Apache Labs
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
FWIW, labs ceased to have any value for me when someone decided to delete the websites of prior labs due to inactivity. I thought that people would understand that a historical archive of web standards development is supposed to be inactive, but I guess not.
+1 to just shut labs down.
....Roy
Re: Revitalising Apache Labs
Posted by Hadrian Zbarcea <hz...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
I see next to zero value in LABS the way they were intended. More inline.
If we were too keep the LABS, I see more value in Veneet Verma's
proposal and I would rather reply to his post.
Hadrian
On 02/07/2017 05:20 AM, jan iversen wrote:
>
>> On 7 Feb 2017, at 11:01, Danny Angus <da...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> Right Labs subscribers, listen up...
>>
>> At the last board meeting we were put on notice that we should stir
>> ourselves into action or be prepared to close down.
>>
>> So I am looking for volunteers to do some outreach and awareness work with
>> commiters to see if we can generate wider participation in the debate about
>> our future, and hopefully from that to a proposal that would make labs
>> useful and relevant, and volunteers to execute it.
>>
>> I'd now like to discuss possible activities here, agree a list of tasks and
>> find volunteers.
> I think we need to have another discussion first, before adding many activities.
>
> Long time ago, I tried approx. what you are trying, and I still believe there is a space for a project like LABS, but we need to have a defined identify.
True. And it was tried more than once.
>
> An important comparison is against GitHub, currently we do not offer any real advantages, but a couple of disadvantages (like the time it takes to create a new project). We could easily provide LABS with some advantages:
> - be a foster home for project too small to start in Incubator and provide e.g. mentoring (something the GitHub totally lacks), with the aim that as the project hopefully grows it enters Incubator.
I cannot see any serious argument for doing that in labs vs github. One
could as easily move the code from github to incubator as it would from
the labs.
> - make more active advertisement of active project among the ASF community to attract more developers.
Not sure I get that, but I think projects already 'advertise' as best as
they can.
> - Remove the \u201cno release\u201d blocker, which was a very good reason not to make a LABS project.
That would imply a direct competition with the Incubator. Interesting
proposal, but I am not sure where it'd go. I can already hear Roman
screaming (and I probably would alongside him).
> Remove might not be the right word, but allow release with a set of restrictions (e.g. clearly mark releases as LABS releases, and not a normal ASF release).
More restrictions? Come on. It's already confusing to the outside world
what an incubator release is, hence the disclaimer that it says little
about the quality of the code, but the health of the community. I am not
sure what the differentiator for a LABS release should be.
>
>>
>> My proposal so far has..
>> First task is to revamp our website, to communicate that we are moving into
>> this phase.
> +1
>>
>> Second task is to prep some permalinked content describing ourselves, e.g.
>> an ASF blog post
> for that we need to know our \u201cidentity"
>>
>> Third task is to draft an email to commiters@ linking to the blog post,
>> website, and perhaps a survey.
> Can be done, but I am unsure what the survey should contain, a total \u201chow do you want our identity to be\u201d, will most likely not provide much information, we can convert to a task list.
>
>>
>> What do you think?
> I hope LABS can be revived.
>
>> What other ideas do we have?
> See above.
>
> rgds
> jan I.
>
>
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Re: Revitalising Apache Labs
Posted by Hadrian Zbarcea <hz...@gmail.com>.
A while ago the ASF accepted target donations, but no project tried to
take advantage of that yet. There are reasons, I won't get into that
now. In Fundraising we are looking at possible solutions for that and
one of them is somewhat related to Vineet's proposal below.
However, this would be a completely different LABS than what was
initially intended and probably the whole PMC would need to be revamped
somehow. This LABS would most address devops, continuous delivery, cloud
computing more and developing a project.
I think that would have significant value and I think it would have the
potential to even bring new revenue streams for the ASF and I would
support it not only as a member but with the fundraising hat on too.
My proposal would be slightly different than Vineet's as I am not sure
that VMs, docker containers and Jenkins pipelines should be the output,
but before we start discussing options the PMC would have to agree on
changing the charter for the LABS or not.
My $0.02,
Hadrian
On 02/07/2017 05:50 AM, Verma, Vineet wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
> I have a suggestion that I had used earlier for my projects and also seen in Oracle Website.
>
> Most projects in apache directory have a learning curve and all have some basic installation steps.
>
> What I was suggesting was as LABS, lets provide Virtual Machines ready built with projects already loaded.
>
> So for example, if you want an Apache Directory example lab, therefore people can download the latest VM with latest Apache Directory installation from LABS to their local machine and test the same.
> The VM can be of Windows/Linux OS. Even Ubuntu or Docker Images can be used for Open Source issues.
>
> Pipelines can be setup in Jenkins or other build tools to generate such VMs using chef and puppet.
>
> Hosting such VMs can be a space issue though but this can become very popular very soon.
>
> Also Labs can contain Custom Images from users who wish to contribute and have applied one or more combination of products.
>
> This way the concept would become popular for try and use concept.
>
> What say..??
>
> Regards
> Vineet Verma
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jan iversen [mailto:jancasacondor@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 15:50
> To: labs@labs.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Revitalising Apache Labs
>
>
>> On 7 Feb 2017, at 11:01, Danny Angus <da...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> Right Labs subscribers, listen up...
>>
>> At the last board meeting we were put on notice that we should stir
>> ourselves into action or be prepared to close down.
>>
>> So I am looking for volunteers to do some outreach and awareness work
>> with commiters to see if we can generate wider participation in the
>> debate about our future, and hopefully from that to a proposal that
>> would make labs useful and relevant, and volunteers to execute it.
>>
>> I'd now like to discuss possible activities here, agree a list of
>> tasks and find volunteers.
> I think we need to have another discussion first, before adding many activities.
>
> Long time ago, I tried approx. what you are trying, and I still believe there is a space for a project like LABS, but we need to have a defined identify.
>
> An important comparison is against GitHub, currently we do not offer any real advantages, but a couple of disadvantages (like the time it takes to create a new project). We could easily provide LABS with some advantages:
> - be a foster home for project too small to start in Incubator and provide e.g. mentoring (something the GitHub totally lacks), with the aim that as the project hopefully grows it enters Incubator.
> - make more active advertisement of active project among the ASF community to attract more developers.
> - Remove the \u201cno release\u201d blocker, which was a very good reason not to make a LABS project.
> Remove might not be the right word, but allow release with a set of restrictions (e.g. clearly mark releases as LABS releases, and not a normal ASF release).
>
>>
>> My proposal so far has..
>> First task is to revamp our website, to communicate that we are moving
>> into this phase.
> +1
>>
>> Second task is to prep some permalinked content describing ourselves, e.g.
>> an ASF blog post
> for that we need to know our \u201cidentity"
>>
>> Third task is to draft an email to commiters@ linking to the blog
>> post, website, and perhaps a survey.
> Can be done, but I am unsure what the survey should contain, a total \u201chow do you want our identity to be\u201d, will most likely not provide much information, we can convert to a task list.
>
>>
>> What do you think?
> I hope LABS can be revived.
>
>> What other ideas do we have?
> See above.
>
> rgds
> jan I.
>
>
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>
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RE: Revitalising Apache Labs
Posted by "Verma, Vineet" <Vi...@ca.com>.
Hi Guys,
I have a suggestion that I had used earlier for my projects and also seen in Oracle Website.
Most projects in apache directory have a learning curve and all have some basic installation steps.
What I was suggesting was as LABS, lets provide Virtual Machines ready built with projects already loaded.
So for example, if you want an Apache Directory example lab, therefore people can download the latest VM with latest Apache Directory installation from LABS to their local machine and test the same.
The VM can be of Windows/Linux OS. Even Ubuntu or Docker Images can be used for Open Source issues.
Pipelines can be setup in Jenkins or other build tools to generate such VMs using chef and puppet.
Hosting such VMs can be a space issue though but this can become very popular very soon.
Also Labs can contain Custom Images from users who wish to contribute and have applied one or more combination of products.
This way the concept would become popular for try and use concept.
What say..??
Regards
Vineet Verma
-----Original Message-----
From: jan iversen [mailto:jancasacondor@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 15:50
To: labs@labs.apache.org
Subject: Re: Revitalising Apache Labs
> On 7 Feb 2017, at 11:01, Danny Angus <da...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Right Labs subscribers, listen up...
>
> At the last board meeting we were put on notice that we should stir
> ourselves into action or be prepared to close down.
>
> So I am looking for volunteers to do some outreach and awareness work
> with commiters to see if we can generate wider participation in the
> debate about our future, and hopefully from that to a proposal that
> would make labs useful and relevant, and volunteers to execute it.
>
> I'd now like to discuss possible activities here, agree a list of
> tasks and find volunteers.
I think we need to have another discussion first, before adding many activities.
Long time ago, I tried approx. what you are trying, and I still believe there is a space for a project like LABS, but we need to have a defined identify.
An important comparison is against GitHub, currently we do not offer any real advantages, but a couple of disadvantages (like the time it takes to create a new project). We could easily provide LABS with some advantages:
- be a foster home for project too small to start in Incubator and provide e.g. mentoring (something the GitHub totally lacks), with the aim that as the project hopefully grows it enters Incubator.
- make more active advertisement of active project among the ASF community to attract more developers.
- Remove the “no release” blocker, which was a very good reason not to make a LABS project.
Remove might not be the right word, but allow release with a set of restrictions (e.g. clearly mark releases as LABS releases, and not a normal ASF release).
>
> My proposal so far has..
> First task is to revamp our website, to communicate that we are moving
> into this phase.
+1
>
> Second task is to prep some permalinked content describing ourselves, e.g.
> an ASF blog post
for that we need to know our “identity"
>
> Third task is to draft an email to commiters@ linking to the blog
> post, website, and perhaps a survey.
Can be done, but I am unsure what the survey should contain, a total “how do you want our identity to be”, will most likely not provide much information, we can convert to a task list.
>
> What do you think?
I hope LABS can be revived.
> What other ideas do we have?
See above.
rgds
jan I.
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Re: Revitalising Apache Labs
Posted by jan iversen <ja...@gmail.com>.
> On 7 Feb 2017, at 11:01, Danny Angus <da...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Right Labs subscribers, listen up...
>
> At the last board meeting we were put on notice that we should stir
> ourselves into action or be prepared to close down.
>
> So I am looking for volunteers to do some outreach and awareness work with
> commiters to see if we can generate wider participation in the debate about
> our future, and hopefully from that to a proposal that would make labs
> useful and relevant, and volunteers to execute it.
>
> I'd now like to discuss possible activities here, agree a list of tasks and
> find volunteers.
I think we need to have another discussion first, before adding many activities.
Long time ago, I tried approx. what you are trying, and I still believe there is a space for a project like LABS, but we need to have a defined identify.
An important comparison is against GitHub, currently we do not offer any real advantages, but a couple of disadvantages (like the time it takes to create a new project). We could easily provide LABS with some advantages:
- be a foster home for project too small to start in Incubator and provide e.g. mentoring (something the GitHub totally lacks), with the aim that as the project hopefully grows it enters Incubator.
- make more active advertisement of active project among the ASF community to attract more developers.
- Remove the “no release” blocker, which was a very good reason not to make a LABS project.
Remove might not be the right word, but allow release with a set of restrictions (e.g. clearly mark releases as LABS releases, and not a normal ASF release).
>
> My proposal so far has..
> First task is to revamp our website, to communicate that we are moving into
> this phase.
+1
>
> Second task is to prep some permalinked content describing ourselves, e.g.
> an ASF blog post
for that we need to know our “identity"
>
> Third task is to draft an email to commiters@ linking to the blog post,
> website, and perhaps a survey.
Can be done, but I am unsure what the survey should contain, a total “how do you want our identity to be”, will most likely not provide much information, we can convert to a task list.
>
> What do you think?
I hope LABS can be revived.
> What other ideas do we have?
See above.
rgds
jan I.
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Re: Revitalising Apache Labs
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
Sorry for revisiting the same topic again. I've been using Labs in the
past. But the lack of releases forced me to move my stuff off from
Labs. IMO, one cannot reasonably expect a project to get off the
ground, if the installation instructions start with "Grab the software
from SVN/Git, and build it." Or, in the case of a Java project: You've
got to distribute your stuff via Maven Central, or it won't be used.
Jochen
On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 8:40 PM, Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 02/07/2017 05:01 AM, Danny Angus wrote:
>> What do you think?
>> What other ideas do we have?
>
> I suppose another way to approach it is to ask the membership, if they
> had this service available (as, likely, most are unaware of it), would
> you in fact use it? Would you start a new project *here*, rather than,
> say, Github, given the specified rules?
>
> If there exist members that would find it useful, then it is indeed a
> worthwhile endeavor to continue with, and we should brush up the
> service, and the documentation, to accommodate those people.
>
> --
> Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
> http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
>
--
The next time you hear: "Don't reinvent the wheel!"
http://www.keystonedevelopment.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/evolution-of-the-wheel-300x85.jpg
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Re: Revitalising Apache Labs
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
On 02/07/2017 05:01 AM, Danny Angus wrote:
> What do you think?
> What other ideas do we have?
I suppose another way to approach it is to ask the membership, if they
had this service available (as, likely, most are unaware of it), would
you in fact use it? Would you start a new project *here*, rather than,
say, Github, given the specified rules?
If there exist members that would find it useful, then it is indeed a
worthwhile endeavor to continue with, and we should brush up the
service, and the documentation, to accommodate those people.
--
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
Re: Revitalising Apache Labs
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
On 02/07/2017 05:01 AM, Danny Angus wrote:
> Right Labs subscribers, listen up...
>
> At the last board meeting we were put on notice that we should stir
> ourselves into action or be prepared to close down.
>
> So I am looking for volunteers to do some outreach and awareness work with
> commiters to see if we can generate wider participation in the debate about
> our future, and hopefully from that to a proposal that would make labs
> useful and relevant, and volunteers to execute it.
>
> I'd now like to discuss possible activities here, agree a list of tasks and
> find volunteers.
>
> My proposal so far has..
> First task is to revamp our website, to communicate that we are moving into
> this phase.
>
> Second task is to prep some permalinked content describing ourselves, e.g.
> an ASF blog post
>
> Third task is to draft an email to commiters@ linking to the blog post,
> website, and perhaps a survey.
>
> What do you think?
> What other ideas do we have?
An important thing to do, I think, is to fix our process, so that
creating a new lab isn't quite so onerous. The current process
(proposal, vote, and so on) raises the bar enough higher than github
that it's hard to see a benefit over just doing it over there.
I think that labs, as labs was intended, would be that an member could
create a lab by wishing it so.
--
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon