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Posted to dev@subversion.apache.org by Julian Foad <ju...@apache.org> on 2021/05/19 18:23:43 UTC
Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Re. https://blog.bofh.it/debian/id_461
tl;dr: Most freenode staff resigned in protest of freenode being sold to an outside entity.
Looks like we might want to move our channels, bots, and so on?
#svn
#svn-dev
#svn-members (defunct)
#svn-dev-watercooler (defunct)
ASFBot
wayita
ilogger2
subversion-bot
irker (if it's still there)
Libera.chat [2] has been posited as a direct replacement.
However, the sane replacement these days is Matrix [1].
Most Freenode and other IRC channels are *already* bridged to Matrix. (So is Gitter, while Mozilla and other FOSS organizations have gone Matrix-native.) I *already* interact with #svn-dev, #svn and other Freenode channels via Matrix. You can, too, following these links:
https://matrix.to/#/#freenode_#svn-dev:matrix.org
https://matrix.to/#/#freenode_#svn:matrix.org
Thus we get a seamless gradual migration.
Matrix is federated, so you can participate with a matrix account registered on any matrix server. With the same account you can also have a WhatsApp-like UI for private conversations with friends and family. Your private communications can stay on your own server if you set it up that way, or you and your contacts can choose any hosted server.
I have been keenly following the advent of Matrix over the past few years and I whole-heartedly commend it.
- Julian
[1] https://matrix.org
[2] https://libera.chat/news/welcome-to-libera-chat
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Stefan Sperling <st...@apache.org>.
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 09:42:36AM +0200, Stefan Sperling wrote:
> On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 08:10:40PM +0000, Daniel Shahaf wrote:
> > I've gone ahead and moved wayita to libera.
> >
> > I wanted to keep a copy on freenode, but forgot to change the pointer to
> > the sqlite database, and I'm not sure whether it's possible to use the
> > same set of factoids for two different IRC servers.
>
> So far there were no objections to moving off freenode.
> Can we go ahead and mark our freenode channels as unofficial or otherwise
> close them somehow?
>
> Be prepared for a possibility of losing control of our freenode channels.
> This morning there were channel takeovers on freenode, of channels which
> mention the competing libera network in their topic. Two examples of many:
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/nl74hc/freenode_has_unilaterally_taken_over_haskell/
>
> https://i.imgur.com/k5xAud4.png
>
I've marked the channels as no longer used and moved to libera.chat
in the topic.
Arfrever had the idea of rendering libera.chat in wide unicode letters
instead of ascii, which might escape a potential freenode channel
takeover script for a while.
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>.
Stefan Sperling wrote on Wed, 26 May 2021 07:42 +00:00:
> Be prepared for a possibility of losing control of our freenode channels.
> This morning there were channel takeovers on freenode, of channels which
> mention the competing libera network in their topic. Two examples of many:
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/nl74hc/freenode_has_unilaterally_taken_over_haskell/
>
> https://i.imgur.com/k5xAud4.png
FWIW:
│Wed 04:15:31 freenode -- | rasengan (~rasengan@freenode/staff/rasengan): [Global Notice] In the recent policy enforcement, some channels were erroneously included. We greatly apologize for the inconvenience. Please contact us in #freenode-services or contact-us@freenode.net. Thanks for your patience and choosing freenode!
Timestamp is UTC, several hours before stsp's mail, but I don't know
whether the channels stsp mentioned fall under "erroneously included" or
not.
(I'm not sure it makes a difference, but that's another kettle of fish.)
Daniel
.oO("free as in node")
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Stefan Sperling <st...@apache.org>.
On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 08:10:40PM +0000, Daniel Shahaf wrote:
> I've gone ahead and moved wayita to libera.
>
> I wanted to keep a copy on freenode, but forgot to change the pointer to
> the sqlite database, and I'm not sure whether it's possible to use the
> same set of factoids for two different IRC servers.
So far there were no objections to moving off freenode.
Can we go ahead and mark our freenode channels as unofficial or otherwise
close them somehow?
Be prepared for a possibility of losing control of our freenode channels.
This morning there were channel takeovers on freenode, of channels which
mention the competing libera network in their topic. Two examples of many:
https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/nl74hc/freenode_has_unilaterally_taken_over_haskell/
https://i.imgur.com/k5xAud4.png
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>.
Martin Edgar Furter Rathod wrote on Wed, 26 May 2021 06:33 +00:00:
> On 25.05.21 01:40, Daniel Shahaf wrote:
> > I've gone ahead and moved wayita to libera.
> >
> > I wanted to keep a copy on freenode, but forgot to change the pointer to
> > the sqlite database, and I'm not sure whether it's possible to use the
> > same set of factoids for two different IRC servers.
>
> The Wayita code doesn't allow to open a database twice. I circumvented
> that check by sharing the factoid object between the connections. But
> then I got every event twice. I had to fix some bugs and do some
> improvements both in wayita and the irclib it uses. Now the bot seems to
> work fine with two connections.
>
> To configure it you have to add a second server alias in the [bot]
> section, duplicate the plugin section and rename the connection and the
> section.
Thanks a lot!
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Martin Edgar Furter Rathod <mf...@borg.ch>.
On 25.05.21 01:40, Daniel Shahaf wrote:
> I've gone ahead and moved wayita to libera.
>
> I wanted to keep a copy on freenode, but forgot to change the pointer to
> the sqlite database, and I'm not sure whether it's possible to use the
> same set of factoids for two different IRC servers.
The Wayita code doesn't allow to open a database twice. I circumvented
that check by sharing the factoid object between the connections. But
then I got every event twice. I had to fix some bugs and do some
improvements both in wayita and the irclib it uses. Now the bot seems to
work fine with two connections.
To configure it you have to add a second server alias in the [bot]
section, duplicate the plugin section and rename the connection and the
section.
- Martin
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>.
I've gone ahead and moved wayita to libera.
I wanted to keep a copy on freenode, but forgot to change the pointer to
the sqlite database, and I'm not sure whether it's possible to use the
same set of factoids for two different IRC servers.
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>.
Branko Čibej wrote on Mon, 24 May 2021 12:14 +00:00:
> On 24.05.2021 10:00, Daniel Sahlberg wrote:
> > The more I think of it, the more I favour a move. But we should do
> > what we can to avoid having the channel considered abandoned.
>
> As long as someone with channel op privileges is on the channel -- if
> they take it away we can raise a stink that Freenode will have a hard
> time surviving. Well, that is, if it survives the stink the new
> "management" is already successfully raising.
I suggest to bless the libera channels as official and leave the
freenode channels "open for business" but clearly marked unofficial
(in /topic, entrymsg, etc). After all, if people want to discuss
Subversion on freenode, I don't see any reason for us to try and
stop them.
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org>.
On 24.05.2021 10:00, Daniel Sahlberg wrote:
> Den mån 24 maj 2021 kl 09:22 skrev Branko Čibej <brane@apache.org
> <ma...@apache.org>>:
>
> Obviously we shouldn't abandon the channel, but I'm sure there's a
> way
> to automagically reply to posts with a link to the Libera channel(s).
> It's debatable whether that amounts to squatting ... but there are
> far
> too many existing links to our presence on Freenode to just ignore.
>
>
> I was thinking of what would cause the channel to be considered
> abandoned. As I'm reading it, moving is equal to abandoning the
> channel. (This sounds like a hostage situation: If you move, we'll
> give your channel to someone else).
Yah. That's why my thesaurus says: "entrepreneur" -> "criminal",
"sociopath", "hypocrite", "self-serving pile of unmentionables".
> The more I think of it, the more I favour a move. But we should do
> what we can to avoid having the channel considered abandoned.
As long as someone with channel op privileges is on the channel -- if
they take it away we can raise a stink that Freenode will have a hard
time surviving. Well, that is, if it survives the stink the new
"management" is already successfully raising.
-- Brane
P.S.: You've all noticed that I'm not in a very diplomatic frame of mind.
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Daniel Sahlberg <da...@gmail.com>.
Den mån 24 maj 2021 kl 09:22 skrev Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org>:
> Obviously we shouldn't abandon the channel, but I'm sure there's a way
> to automagically reply to posts with a link to the Libera channel(s).
> It's debatable whether that amounts to squatting ... but there are far
> too many existing links to our presence on Freenode to just ignore.
>
I was thinking of what would cause the channel to be considered abandoned.
As I'm reading it, moving is equal to abandoning the channel. (This sounds
like a hostage situation: If you move, we'll give your channel to someone
else).
The more I think of it, the more I favour a move. But we should do what we
can to avoid having the channel considered abandoned.
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org>.
On 24.05.2021 08:47, Daniel Sahlberg wrote:
> Den sön 23 maj 2021 kl 21:21 skrev Stefan Sperling <stsp@apache.org
> <ma...@apache.org>>:
>
> On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 03:02:08PM +0200, Branko Čibej wrote:
> > Every time I hear (or read) someone explaining how "one of my
> companies is
> > funding this free service", I grab my wallet and run away.
> "Monetizing"
> > community-lead and -created services has been a thing since
> before the
> > Internet. This is probably no different.
>
> It is going downhill faster than I expected, with policy changes
> like this:
> https://github.com/freenode/web-7.0/pull/513/files#diff-0e382b024f696a3b7a0ff3bce24ae3166cc6f383d059c7cc61e0a3ccdeed522cL87
> <https://github.com/freenode/web-7.0/pull/513/files#diff-0e382b024f696a3b7a0ff3bce24ae3166cc6f383d059c7cc61e0a3ccdeed522cL87>
> You are now welcome to use political, racial, ethnic, religious or
> gender-related slurs on freenode. IRC trolls are going to love this.
>
>
> There is still writing "We do NOT endorse or encourage discrimination
> on the grounds of e.g. race, religion, gender or sexual preference
> [...]" so it could be argued to be de-duplication.
>
> I'm more worried about the other change in the same merge work. I'm
> supposing that after a migration the #svn channel would be considered
> abandoned and thus up for grabs by anyone? Is there anything that can
> be done to mitigate the risk?
Obviously we shouldn't abandon the channel, but I'm sure there's a way
to automagically reply to posts with a link to the Libera channel(s).
It's debatable whether that amounts to squatting ... but there are far
too many existing links to our presence on Freenode to just ignore.
>
> (I'm not following the events closely so I can't provide any input to
> the direction to move).
>
> Kind regards,
> Daniel Sahlberg
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Daniel Sahlberg <da...@gmail.com>.
Den sön 23 maj 2021 kl 21:21 skrev Stefan Sperling <st...@apache.org>:
> On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 03:02:08PM +0200, Branko Čibej wrote:
> > Every time I hear (or read) someone explaining how "one of my companies
> is
> > funding this free service", I grab my wallet and run away. "Monetizing"
> > community-lead and -created services has been a thing since before the
> > Internet. This is probably no different.
>
> It is going downhill faster than I expected, with policy changes like this:
>
> https://github.com/freenode/web-7.0/pull/513/files#diff-0e382b024f696a3b7a0ff3bce24ae3166cc6f383d059c7cc61e0a3ccdeed522cL87
> You are now welcome to use political, racial, ethnic, religious or
> gender-related slurs on freenode. IRC trolls are going to love this.
>
There is still writing "We do NOT endorse or encourage discrimination on
the grounds of e.g. race, religion, gender or sexual preference [...]" so
it could be argued to be de-duplication.
I'm more worried about the other change in the same merge work. I'm
supposing that after a migration the #svn channel would be considered
abandoned and thus up for grabs by anyone? Is there anything that can be
done to mitigate the risk?
(I'm not following the events closely so I can't provide any input to the
direction to move).
Kind regards,
Daniel Sahlberg
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Stefan Sperling <st...@apache.org>.
On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 03:02:08PM +0200, Branko Čibej wrote:
> Every time I hear (or read) someone explaining how "one of my companies is
> funding this free service", I grab my wallet and run away. "Monetizing"
> community-lead and -created services has been a thing since before the
> Internet. This is probably no different.
It is going downhill faster than I expected, with policy changes like this:
https://github.com/freenode/web-7.0/pull/513/files#diff-0e382b024f696a3b7a0ff3bce24ae3166cc6f383d059c7cc61e0a3ccdeed522cL87
You are now welcome to use political, racial, ethnic, religious or
gender-related slurs on freenode. IRC trolls are going to love this.
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org>.
On 21.05.2021 09:22, Stefan Sperling wrote:
> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 04:15:23PM +0100, Julian Foad wrote:
>> For contrast:
>> "The Panic Over Freenode Isn’t Justified and Its Reaction Mostly Disproportionate"
>> http://techrights.org/2021/05/19/freenode-and-cancel-culture/
>>
>> It took me a while to find an article that covered the issue in what seems a more balanced way than most, and I just want to share that. I still don't know how to judge the whole thing.
> This article doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
>
> Obviously the staff who left are very, very angry about issues that
> have been going on for a while.
> I don't believe for a second that a dispute over a sponsorship logo
> on the web site alone would explain this.
Every time I hear (or read) someone explaining how "one of my companies
is funding this free service", I grab my wallet and run away.
"Monetizing" community-lead and -created services has been a thing since
before the Internet. This is probably no different.
-- Brane
P.S.: ICANN and .org, anyone? Different scale, same methods.
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Stefan Sperling <st...@apache.org>.
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 04:15:23PM +0100, Julian Foad wrote:
> For contrast:
> "The Panic Over Freenode Isn’t Justified and Its Reaction Mostly Disproportionate"
> http://techrights.org/2021/05/19/freenode-and-cancel-culture/
>
> It took me a while to find an article that covered the issue in what seems a more balanced way than most, and I just want to share that. I still don't know how to judge the whole thing.
This article doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Obviously the staff who left are very, very angry about issues that
have been going on for a while.
I don't believe for a second that a dispute over a sponsorship logo
on the web site alone would explain this.
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Julian Foad <ju...@foad.me.uk>.
For contrast:
"The Panic Over Freenode Isn’t Justified and Its Reaction Mostly Disproportionate"
http://techrights.org/2021/05/19/freenode-and-cancel-culture/
It took me a while to find an article that covered the issue in what seems a more balanced way than most, and I just want to share that. I still don't know how to judge the whole thing.
--
- Julian
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Johan Corveleyn <jc...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 4:24 PM Nathan Hartman <ha...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 7:18 AM Stefan Sperling <st...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> In order to signal our move to the new IRC service, I believe we should
>> mark our freenode channels as 'moved to libera.chat' in their topic lines,
>> as soon as we have consensus in this project that we indeed want to move.
>>
>> Are there any objections to this?
>
>
>
> No objection from me.
>
> Since channels exist on both services now, I think the freenode channels should be marked "deprecated" and kept around for some period of time; I have no particular suggestion on how long that should be, but I guess until the dust settles and we become confident that libera.chat is stable.
>
+1
I'm a bit slow picking up things these days (or maybe I've always been
slow :-)), but from what I can gather following this from a distance:
sure, migration to libera.chat sounds good (plus some form of
deprecation on freenode), and future avenues remain to be explored.
I'll get there on libera.chat someday in the future :-), but I'm happy
to see some of us have already made it there, and taken control of our
channels over there.
--
Johan
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Daniel Sahlberg <da...@gmail.com>.
I have added a news item and also made a few minor changes building on
Stefan's commit earlier today and the discussion in the thread (r1890232).
I'll sleep on it and merge to publish tomorrow afternoon (CET). Feel free
to comment or improve!
When preparing the merge, I noticed that I've forgotten about the plaintext
password FAQ update (r1887129) and the script. I'll merge the FAQ entry and
try to pick up on the script during the weekend.
Kind regards
Daniel
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Nathan Hartman <ha...@gmail.com>.
Logging by colabti is now moved to our new libera #svn and #svn-dev
channels.
https://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/svn
https://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/svn-dev
Cheers,
Nathan
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>.
Stefan Sperling wrote on Wed, 26 May 2021 15:45 +00:00:
> On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 05:29:49PM +0200, Daniel Sahlberg wrote:
> > I can draft a short news item and put it on staging. I think it should be
> > low key ("we have decided to move"), or does someone think we should make a
> > statement ("we move because XXX is a [insert suitable invective]")?
>
> We don't need to state a reason. I think keeping our official project
> statements short and quiet is the better move in a situation like this.
To clarify my earlier reply: I'm not proposing that we offer an opinion
about the situation or about freenode. I'm just proposing that we give
_some_ context, factual (e.g., "because freenode staff moved"), so users
aren't left thinking .oO( Why? ) after reading "We moved from X to Y".
Cheers,
Daniel
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Stefan Sperling <st...@apache.org>.
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 05:29:49PM +0200, Daniel Sahlberg wrote:
> I can draft a short news item and put it on staging. I think it should be
> low key ("we have decided to move"), or does someone think we should make a
> statement ("we move because XXX is a [insert suitable invective]")?
We don't need to state a reason. I think keeping our official project
statements short and quiet is the better move in a situation like this.
> The SVN book seems to contain "freenode" only in the sample repository
> (which is a copy of the README file in
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/subversion/trunk/README).
>
> Speaking of the README. Would someone like to fix it? It is formally out of
> scope for me but I suppose it would go under obvious-fix rules (related to
> the website changes).
I would consider this as an obvious fix, yes.
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Nathan Hartman <ha...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 11:30 AM Daniel Sahlberg
<da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Den ons 26 maj 2021 kl 17:08 skrev Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>:
>>
>> Nathan Hartman wrote on Wed, 26 May 2021 11:02 +00:00:
>> > Should we announce (and is it appropriate to do so) the change of venue
>> > on our announce@s.a.o list?
>>
>> I don't think it's important enough for announce@, but we could mention
>> it on /index.html, /news.html, on dev@ + users@, and wherever there are
>> links to IRC (including the book).
>
>
> I can draft a short news item and put it on staging. I think it should be low key ("we have decided to move"), or does someone think we should make a statement ("we move because XXX is a [insert suitable invective]")?
Thanks!
I suggest to keep it low key and just state the fact that we have
moved our official #svn and #svn-dev channels, giving the location of
the new channels, and stating that the old channels are retired, i.e.,
no longer the official IRC channels of this project. There isn't any
value to be gained from making statements about the old venue.
> The SVN book seems to contain "freenode" only in the sample repository (which is a copy of the README file in http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/subversion/trunk/README).
>
> Speaking of the README. Would someone like to fix it? It is formally out of scope for me but I suppose it would go under obvious-fix rules (related to the website changes).
Sure, I'll look into it a little later...
Cheers,
Nathan
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>.
Daniel Sahlberg wrote on Wed, 26 May 2021 15:29 +00:00:
>
> Den ons 26 maj 2021 kl 17:08 skrev Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>:
> > Nathan Hartman wrote on Wed, 26 May 2021 11:02 +00:00:
> > > Should we announce (and is it appropriate to do so) the change of venue
> > > on our announce@s.a.o list?
> >
> > I don't think it's important enough for announce@, but we could mention
> > it on /index.html, /news.html, on dev@ + users@, and wherever there are
> > links to IRC (including the book).
>
> I can draft a short news item and put it on staging.
Thanks.
> I think it should be low key ("we have decided to move"), or does
> someone think we should make a statement ("we move because XXX is a
> [insert suitable invective]")?
+1 to the former. State the facts, including factual background to
avoid mysteries. A Wikipedia link might be a good idea.
> The SVN book seems to contain "freenode" only in the sample repository
> (which is a copy of the README file in
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/subversion/trunk/README).
>
> Speaking of the README. Would someone like to fix it? It is formally
> out of scope for me but I suppose it would go under obvious-fix rules
> (related to the website changes).
Yeah, no one would mind if you updated documentation to reflect list
consensus, but in any case, I hereby extend your partial commit access
to include user documentation. sed away! :-)
Cheers,
Daniel
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Daniel Sahlberg <da...@gmail.com>.
Den ons 26 maj 2021 kl 17:08 skrev Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>:
> Nathan Hartman wrote on Wed, 26 May 2021 11:02 +00:00:
> > Should we announce (and is it appropriate to do so) the change of venue
> > on our announce@s.a.o list?
>
> I don't think it's important enough for announce@, but we could mention
> it on /index.html, /news.html, on dev@ + users@, and wherever there are
> links to IRC (including the book).
>
I can draft a short news item and put it on staging. I think it should be
low key ("we have decided to move"), or does someone think we should make a
statement ("we move because XXX is a [insert suitable invective]")?
The SVN book seems to contain "freenode" only in the sample repository
(which is a copy of the README file in
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/subversion/trunk/README).
Speaking of the README. Would someone like to fix it? It is formally out of
scope for me but I suppose it would go under obvious-fix rules (related to
the website changes).
Kind regards,
Daniel
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>.
Nathan Hartman wrote on Wed, 26 May 2021 11:02 +00:00:
> Should we announce (and is it appropriate to do so) the change of venue
> on our announce@s.a.o list?
I don't think it's important enough for announce@, but we could mention
it on /index.html, /news.html, on dev@ + users@, and wherever there are
links to IRC (including the book).
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Nathan Hartman <ha...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 4:58 AM Stefan Sperling <st...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 10:52:42AM +0200, Stefan Sperling wrote:
> > On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 10:41:28AM +0200, Daniel Sahlberg wrote:
> > > Considering latest development (the channel takeovers mentioned by
> Stefan
> > > Sperling in another part of the thread), I'd suggest that we switch the
> > > website. I would go for a more drastic change than Nathan's patch
> (which
> > > looked nice just two days ago) and put libera as the official channel
> and
> > > freenode as "in the past there were also freenode but it has been
> retired
> > > and is no longer used by the project".
> > >
> > > I could look at this tonight unless someone else beat me to it.
> >
> > I have just committed a patch to the staging area which replaces links
> > to freenode with links to libera.chat.
> >
> > Please feel free to take a look at it and merge changes to 'publish' as
> > soon as it is convenient for you to do so :)
>
> And I agree that it would be good to mention our freenode channels
> as having been retired. If you could add a statement to this effect
> on top of my link changes, and/or tweak whatever else you see that
> you think should be added or changed, I would appreciate it.
>
Some projects (e.g., Gentoo, Haiku-OS) have made announcements as to moving
their IRC channels [1], [2].
Should we announce (and is it appropriate to do so) the change of venue on
our announce@s.a.o list?
[1]
https://www.gentoo.org/news/2021/05/23/Moving-to-Libera.html
[2]
https://www.haiku-os.org/news/2021-05-19_haiku_is_moving_to_oftc/
Cheers,
Nathan
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Stefan Sperling <st...@apache.org>.
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 10:52:42AM +0200, Stefan Sperling wrote:
> On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 10:41:28AM +0200, Daniel Sahlberg wrote:
> > Considering latest development (the channel takeovers mentioned by Stefan
> > Sperling in another part of the thread), I'd suggest that we switch the
> > website. I would go for a more drastic change than Nathan's patch (which
> > looked nice just two days ago) and put libera as the official channel and
> > freenode as "in the past there were also freenode but it has been retired
> > and is no longer used by the project".
> >
> > I could look at this tonight unless someone else beat me to it.
>
> I have just committed a patch to the staging area which replaces links
> to freenode with links to libera.chat.
>
> Please feel free to take a look at it and merge changes to 'publish' as
> soon as it is convenient for you to do so :)
And I agree that it would be good to mention our freenode channels
as having been retired. If you could add a statement to this effect
on top of my link changes, and/or tweak whatever else you see that
you think should be added or changed, I would appreciate it.
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Stefan Sperling <st...@apache.org>.
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 10:41:28AM +0200, Daniel Sahlberg wrote:
> Considering latest development (the channel takeovers mentioned by Stefan
> Sperling in another part of the thread), I'd suggest that we switch the
> website. I would go for a more drastic change than Nathan's patch (which
> looked nice just two days ago) and put libera as the official channel and
> freenode as "in the past there were also freenode but it has been retired
> and is no longer used by the project".
>
> I could look at this tonight unless someone else beat me to it.
I have just committed a patch to the staging area which replaces links
to freenode with links to libera.chat.
Please feel free to take a look at it and merge changes to 'publish' as
soon as it is convenient for you to do so :)
Meanwhile, I have also disconnected my IRC client from freenode.
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Daniel Sahlberg <da...@gmail.com>.
Den mån 24 maj 2021 kl 07:23 skrev Nathan Hartman <hartman.nathan@gmail.com
>:
> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 10:24 AM Nathan Hartman
> <ha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Since channels exist on both services now, I think the freenode
> > channels should be marked "deprecated" and kept around for some
> > period of time; I have no particular suggestion on how long that
> > should be, but I guess until the dust settles and we become
> > confident that libera.chat is stable.
>
> People who don't follow this thread (or list) might not be aware that
> we have channels at both services now, but since we do, should the
> website be updated? Attaching a rough-draft patch. Not committing it
> yet because:
>
> It's not currently clear to me which path we wish to take: Move to
> libera and declare the freenode channels deprecated? Stay on both
> indefinitely? Wait longer to see how things play out?
>
> Accessibility: currently freenode provides a web interface and we have
> an archive of those channels; I'm not aware of either for the libera
> channels.
>
> Given the above points, is it too early to update the website?
>
Considering latest development (the channel takeovers mentioned by Stefan
Sperling in another part of the thread), I'd suggest that we switch the
website. I would go for a more drastic change than Nathan's patch (which
looked nice just two days ago) and put libera as the official channel and
freenode as "in the past there were also freenode but it has been retired
and is no longer used by the project".
I could look at this tonight unless someone else beat me to it.
Kind regards,
Daniel
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Nathan Hartman <ha...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 10:24 AM Nathan Hartman
<ha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Since channels exist on both services now, I think the freenode
> channels should be marked "deprecated" and kept around for some
> period of time; I have no particular suggestion on how long that
> should be, but I guess until the dust settles and we become
> confident that libera.chat is stable.
People who don't follow this thread (or list) might not be aware that
we have channels at both services now, but since we do, should the
website be updated? Attaching a rough-draft patch. Not committing it
yet because:
It's not currently clear to me which path we wish to take: Move to
libera and declare the freenode channels deprecated? Stay on both
indefinitely? Wait longer to see how things play out?
Accessibility: currently freenode provides a web interface and we have
an archive of those channels; I'm not aware of either for the libera
channels.
Given the above points, is it too early to update the website?
Cheers,
Nathan
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Nathan Hartman <ha...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 7:18 AM Stefan Sperling <st...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> In order to signal our move to the new IRC service, I believe we should
> mark our freenode channels as 'moved to libera.chat' in their topic lines,
> as soon as we have consensus in this project that we indeed want to move.
>
> Are there any objections to this?
No objection from me.
Since channels exist on both services now, I think the freenode channels
should be marked "deprecated" and kept around for some period of time; I
have no particular suggestion on how long that should be, but I guess until
the dust settles and we become confident that libera.chat is stable.
Cheers,
Nathan
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Julian Foad <ju...@apache.org>.
The topic of the IRC Matrix Bridges room ( https://matrix.to/#/#irc:matrix.org ) now says "A libera.chat bridge is underway - stay tuned..." :-)
Stefan Sperling wrote:
> OK, then let's focus on a possible Freenode -> Libera move first.
>
> Daniel Shahaf and myself have control of #svn and #svn-dev on Libera.
> [...]
> Are there any objections to this?
No objection from me. I've registered on libera.chat and joined the channels. I support it as an immediate step that may be suitable in the medium term for some cases while I still believe the future is better served by matrix.
> My main goal here is to support the former freenode staff. [...]
From what I've read and a gut feeling, I support that goal too.
p.s. A quick observation re. mobile phone access. You mentioned you didn't feel a need to follow IRC on your phone. Nor did I... until I could. Now that I can do so easily and with history, alongside my bridged WhatsApp and Telegram and SMS messages, and control the notification settings for all of them in the same way, I have changed my point of view. It feels natural and convenient and right that I should be able to access all of these on my smallest computer device in the same way as I can on my biggest computer.
--
- Julian
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Stefan Sperling <st...@apache.org>.
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 11:43:43AM +0100, Julian Foad wrote:
> Stefan Sperling wrote:
> > Keeping a matrix bridge to the current freenode channels alive means we're
> > not actually leaving this network. To support the former freenode staff it
> > makes more sense to switch IRC server *and* possibly look into a migration
> > to Matrix. I don't think these are conflicting goals.
>
> Yes, I think those two would go nicely together, and I expect we will see
> Matrix enthusiasts setting up bridging to the replacement alongside the
> original Freenode bridge for everyone. In fact I was surprised they didn't
> blog out about that the same day; I'm sure they will soon.
OK, then let's focus on a possible Freenode -> Libera move first.
Daniel Shahaf and myself have control of #svn and #svn-dev on Libera.
We could wait a little bit and see whether the new service is indeed stable.
Based on what I'm seeing so far it looks like a several communities have
successfully migrated already. The service is runing fine at the moment.
Another channel I run (#gameoftrees) has migrated successfully. This
channel has several users, including bots, who have re-joined our
channel on the new Libera service via their own Matrix bridge.
In order to signal our move to the new IRC service, I believe we should
mark our freenode channels as 'moved to libera.chat' in their topic lines,
as soon as we have consensus in this project that we indeed want to move.
Are there any objections to this?
My main goal here is to support the former freenode staff. I don't expect
that the existing freenode service will see disruption very soon, unless
freenode collapses entirely as a result of mass-migration elsewhere.
We could also decide to stay on freenode for now to wait and see.
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Julian Foad <ju...@apache.org>.
Stefan Sperling wrote:
> First thing I checked was which clients are available for me to install
> on OpenBSD systems. [...]
Apart from web clients (e.g. https://fluffychat.im/web/ , https://app.element.io/ ) which should work "fine" subject to the inherent limitations of web clients, your options on OpenBSD may be limited.
WeeChat+Matrix is said to be good for those who love the IRC style. Here's a how-to on OpenBSD:
https://www.unitedbsd.com/d/322-weechat-with-matrix-python-plugin-on-openbsd-68
Here's a how-to for Synapse (matrix server) on openBSD:
https://robertdherb.com/things/matrix.html
> Keeping a matrix bridge to the current freenode channels alive means we're
> not actually leaving this network. To support the former freenode staff it
> makes more sense to switch IRC server *and* possibly look into a migration
> to Matrix. I don't think these are conflicting goals.
Yes, I think those two would go nicely together, and I expect we will see Matrix enthusiasts setting up bridging to the replacement alongside the original Freenode bridge for everyone. In fact I was surprised they didn't blog out about that the same day; I'm sure they will soon.
> The freenode problem apparently happened because of for-profit investment.
> [...] Matrix development is primarily backed by a for-profit, vector-im.
> By design, and in the long term(!), this structure is vulnerable to the
> same type of problem that just happened to freenode. [...]
Not really. It's much more like the email ecosystem. On the contrary, where Libera.chat is a system with centralized control with corresponding policies such as "We reserve the right to terminate anyone’s access to our services at our discretion." [https://libera.chat/policies], Matrix is a system with federated control which means if you don't like a given service provider's terms and conditions you can choose another or set up your own, either openly federated with others or even as a closed federation, whichever best suits your needs.
Matrix (the open technology standards) is governed by the Matrix Foundation, https://matrix.org/foundation/ . Element.io (previously named vector.im) is a company set up by the group of people who left their previous proprietary-comms jobs to fund creating Matrix as an Open project.
Other non-Element groups, companies and individuals are already producing independent Matrix clients, servers, bridges, and services.
https://matrix.org/docs/projects/try-matrix-now -- a list, filtered by servers, clients, etc.
Matrix servers and services are already operated independently by many large organizations (Mozilla, KDE, GNOME, ...), universities, national governments, and so on.
Thank you for taking a look and posting your observations.
--
- Julian
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Stefan Sperling <st...@apache.org>.
On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 07:23:43PM +0100, Julian Foad wrote:
> Looks like we might want to move our channels, bots, and so on?
> Libera.chat [2] has been posited as a direct replacement.
> However, the sane replacement these days is Matrix [1].
I understand Matrix has more modern technology, and I understand your
motivation in pushing for it. I took this opportunity to take a look.
First thing I checked was which clients are available for me to install
on OpenBSD systems. There's a plugin for pidgin and a client called gomuks.
I suppose gomuks could work. I am currently using irssi. I would now have
to run both irssi (for other IRC channels) and gomuks, or switch to gomuks
completely and rely on bridges for IRC access. There's also the server
component dendrite I could install. I don't think I would want to start
out in Matrix by running my own server, though. I've read somewhere that
Matrix servers require a lot of resources to run, but I don't know if that
is still the case.
Many more clients are listed on the matrix website but I could not easily
install those on OpenBSD without porting them first.
I could install Element on my phone, though I don't think I would ever
really follow svn/svn-dev chatter on the phone.
Compared to the cost of installing and learning to use a new client, the
cost of switching to Libera was almost zero. I could start using this new
drop-in replacement service without even restarting my IRC client, and
channel setup and nick registration were done in less than 30 minutes.
Given that there is still a non-trivial amount of regulars hanging out
in the #svn channel, the cost of switching everyone of them over is not
going to be negligible, no matter what.
Technology aside, some other thoughts:
Keeping a matrix bridge to the current freenode channels alive means we're
not actually leaving this network. To support the former freenode staff it
makes more sense to switch IRC server *and* possibly look into a migration
to Matrix. I don't think these are conflicting goals.
The freenode problem apparently happened because of for-profit investment.
I don't know the details, but as far as I understand a company was registered
and then sold to someone who is now trying to use their monetary influence in
ways that existing community members disagree with.
The new Libera network claims to be operated by an unnamed non-profit
association in Sweden. According to whois, the libera.chat domain is held
by someone in Reykjavik, Iceland. I couldn't find details, but I don't see
a reason to doubt that former freenode staff no what they are doing.
It seems like they intentionally set up a new structure to prevent their
current problem from re-occurring.
Whereas Matrix development is primarily backed by a for-profit, vector-im.
By design, and in the long term(!), this structure is vulnerable to the
same type of problem that just happened to freenode.
I understand that ad-hoc federation can help mitigate this risk, but in
the end we will always have to rely on a healthy community to operate the
service for us, whether the service uses a "modern web" ad-hoc federation
style, or the traditional federation style of IRC which requires close
coordination and bonds of trust between admins.
Cheers,
Stefan
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Julian Foad <ju...@apache.org>.
The owner of the IRC logs [1] is "feb" in the channel #irclogger (or via matrix [2]).
[1] https://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/svn-dev
[2] https://matrix.to/#/#freenode_#irclogger:matrix.org
- Julian
Re: Migrate off Freenode IRC?
Posted by Julian Foad <ju...@apache.org>.
FYI:
The following is a great write-up exploring the messaging system issues facing the GNOME community, commending gradual migration from IRC to Matrix. It has a particular focus on the impossibility of ever perfectly bridging between the two systems, and a wider focus on why this migration makes sense.
https://discourse.gnome.org/t/irc-matrix-and-thanks-for-all-the-kicks/6482
The following is a great summary of Mozilla IRC's transition to Matrix:
https://matrix.org/blog/2019/12/19/welcoming-mozilla-to-matrix
--
- Julian