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Posted to legal-discuss@apache.org by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com> on 2005/09/14 20:47:49 UTC
Java SE IP Issues (affects Apache Harmony)
Folks,
Has anyone here reviewed the following note from SUN?
https://jdk.dev.java.net/jse_ip_issues.html
Thanks,
dims
--
Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/ - Oxygenating The Web Service Platform
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Re: Java SE IP Issues (affects Apache Harmony)
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Sep 14, 2005, at 3:51 PM, Lawrence Rosen wrote:
> Dims asked:
>
>> Has anyone here reviewed the following note from SUN?
>> https://jdk.dev.java.net/jse_ip_issues.html
>>
>
I read it, and while there are a few points that need to be adjusted,
I think this is the standard "thread the needle" positioning we have
had with Sun regarding JCP specifications implemented in open source
since JSPA 2.5.
I'm not worried about it, and will write a response that helps them
clear a few things up.
> Does anyone know the specific "Sun SE IP" that Sun claims? While it
> may be
> fair to demand compatibility as a condition of licensing, I'd need
> to know
> exactly what Sun is licensing first and whether we really need to
> license
> it.
The riff is this - for any Java specification, the spec lead licenses
the collective IP contributed by the expert group to any implementor
that creates a compatible implementation. There is no formal
licensing step for any specific IP aside from the general spec license.
>
>
>> From what Sun wrote, I can't see why anyone would need a license
>> from Sun as
>>
> long as they:
>
> 1. Don't copy any of Sun's code. The implementation must be
> independent.
Yep
>
> 2. Don't use any of Sun's patented technology. What patents?
There are probably patents. As far as I know, there isn't a list
ever given (of anyone's patents, because there is arguably other IP
in J2SE that came from other members of the expert group). There
also is the much-dreaded Kodak activation patent somewhere in the mess.
>
> 3. Don't apply Sun's trademarks to the goods.
Yep, which includes "don't call it Java".
>
> 4. Don't desire to pass Sun's TCK.
Yep.
>
> Nobody should need a license from Sun to make truthful statements
> such as
> "Apache Harmony is Apache's own implementation of Sun's Java SE
> created by
> reading public documentation and by reverse engineering solely to
> obtain
> compatibility."
That's true. We will have a license from Sun for the TCK, as our
implementation will be certified as compatible and can be called
Java. Our users can take that software, make a derivative work, and
do whatever they want, modulo violating Sun's trademarks or other's
patents. (For example, people lose the patent license granted by
contributors to Apache works when they make a derivative work.
Our position at the ASF has been "we license to our users under the
Apache License. Good luck to you Sun for any other ideas you may
have surrounding your specs"
> For example, "Firefox is open source software that does what
> Microsoft's Internet Explorer does, only better."
>
> /Larry
>
> Lawrence Rosen
> Rosenlaw & Einschlag, technology law offices (www.rosenlaw.com)
> 3001 King Ranch Road, Ukiah, CA 95482
> 707-485-1242 * fax: 707-485-1243
> Author of "Open Source Licensing: Software Freedom and
> Intellectual Property Law" (Prentice Hall 2004)
> [Available also at www.rosenlaw.com/oslbook.htm]
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Davanum Srinivas [mailto:davanum@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 11:48 AM
>> To: legal-discuss@apache.org
>> Subject: Java SE IP Issues (affects Apache Harmony)
>>
>> Folks,
>>
>> Has anyone here reviewed the following note from SUN?
>> https://jdk.dev.java.net/jse_ip_issues.html
>>
>> Thanks,
>> dims
>>
>> --
>> Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/ - Oxygenating The Web
>> Service Platform
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and
>> educational only, are not privileged and do not constitute
>> legal advice.
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and educational
> only, are not privileged and do not constitute legal advice.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
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RE: Java SE IP Issues (affects Apache Harmony)
Posted by Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com>.
Dims asked:
> Has anyone here reviewed the following note from SUN?
> https://jdk.dev.java.net/jse_ip_issues.html
Does anyone know the specific "Sun SE IP" that Sun claims? While it may be
fair to demand compatibility as a condition of licensing, I'd need to know
exactly what Sun is licensing first and whether we really need to license
it.
>>From what Sun wrote, I can't see why anyone would need a license from Sun as
long as they:
1. Don't copy any of Sun's code. The implementation must be independent.
2. Don't use any of Sun's patented technology. What patents?
3. Don't apply Sun's trademarks to the goods.
4. Don't desire to pass Sun's TCK.
Nobody should need a license from Sun to make truthful statements such as
"Apache Harmony is Apache's own implementation of Sun's Java SE created by
reading public documentation and by reverse engineering solely to obtain
compatibility." For example, "Firefox is open source software that does what
Microsoft's Internet Explorer does, only better."
/Larry
Lawrence Rosen
Rosenlaw & Einschlag, technology law offices (www.rosenlaw.com)
3001 King Ranch Road, Ukiah, CA 95482
707-485-1242 * fax: 707-485-1243
Author of "Open Source Licensing: Software Freedom and
Intellectual Property Law" (Prentice Hall 2004)
[Available also at www.rosenlaw.com/oslbook.htm]
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Davanum Srinivas [mailto:davanum@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 11:48 AM
> To: legal-discuss@apache.org
> Subject: Java SE IP Issues (affects Apache Harmony)
>
> Folks,
>
> Has anyone here reviewed the following note from SUN?
> https://jdk.dev.java.net/jse_ip_issues.html
>
> Thanks,
> dims
>
> --
> Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/ - Oxygenating The Web
> Service Platform
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and
> educational only, are not privileged and do not constitute
> legal advice.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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