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Posted to community@apache.org by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org> on 2004/06/27 20:09:42 UTC
OASIS
Within the ASF we have a number of projects which deal with formats
and standards close to OASIS.
We've been approached by OASIS to see if it makes sense to join them. This
is a call out to Community to see if that makes sense.
There are a number of obstacles when working with OASIS (or the w3c for
that matter) compared to working with some of the other/normal standards
bodies such as the IETF.
Below are the obstacles to overcome/consider:
-> Face 2 Face meetings and Telecons are important to them;
as are forms of organisation bound voting alien to us.
The ASF developers come from all walks of life; and while
for some their ASF work is directly aligned with their normal
jobs - for others it is not. Asynchronous email is crucial in
allowing all to participate at times fitting; regardless of their
timezone or other commitment. Hence any face to face travel,
or significant teleconferencing requirements generally
lower the quality of the ASF its participation.
-> They have things like NDA and other agreements for
their members, i.e. the ASF, which do not map onto
the agreements the ASF has with its developers.
We are a relatively open organisation; which makes
it hard to adhere to NDA's or other embargo's as under
normal operating procedures anyone can join any (mailing)
list at any time; and their contributions are simply based
on merit rather than as to wether they are a paying
member.
-> Any 'pay to play' is generally an issue for us on fundamental
grounds. Even if a fee is waived - we generally insist that
this is done not just for us - but for the entire open source,
open standards and/or academic community at large.
But having said that - we've been able to resolve these issues in the
past with some other similar organisations.
So - community - do we see enough benefit to start this conversation with
Oasis ? Do we want to be close to some of their standards ?
I'll give this conversation a week or so to build up; and if not - will
send a polite msg to Oasis saying; thanks for the offer but not at this
time.
Thanks,
Dw
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Re: OASIS
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
On Sat, 10 Jul 2004, David N. Welton wrote:
> Mark Johnson <mr...@debian.org> writes:
>
> > Sure, I'd be happy to speak with any (or all) of you. We can do IRC, or a
> > telcon, ..., whatever works best.
> >
> > FWIW, I've found no problems whatsoever regarding our (Debian's)
> > non-profit status w/ regard to our involvement in OASIS projects.
>
> Mark has received nothing from anyone here and is asking me if anyone
> has any questions.
>
> So are we going to join? No? Is it settled? Are you sure you have
> nothing to ask of him?
Darn - I must have missed it; what I was looking for was
-> how is pay to play dealth with ?
-> in reality - are f2f and voting ever an issue ?
i.e. does not beeing able to show up on a f2f or on
a telecon, due to the volunteer having other real-world
roles/constraints, cause issues/imbalance as the corperate
volunteers have more significant backing.
-> how does the processes deal with participants which
are not just volunteers but lack corperate backing
and resources ?
Dw
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Re: OASIS
Posted by "David N. Welton" <da...@dedasys.com>.
Mark Johnson <mr...@debian.org> writes:
> Sure, I'd be happy to speak with any (or all) of you. We can do IRC, or a
> telcon, ..., whatever works best.
>
> FWIW, I've found no problems whatsoever regarding our (Debian's)
> non-profit status w/ regard to our involvement in OASIS projects.
Mark has received nothing from anyone here and is asking me if anyone
has any questions.
So are we going to join? No? Is it settled? Are you sure you have
nothing to ask of him?
--
David N. Welton
Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/
Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/
Photos: http://www.dedasys.com/photos/
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Re: OASIS
Posted by "David N. Welton" <da...@dedasys.com>.
Hi Mark,
I'm writing to you on behalf of the Apache Software Foundation, and as
a fellow member of the Debian project.
In short, we're considering joining the OASIS group, and I mentioned
that Debian has been involved, and thought you might be a good person
for people to chat with a bit, if they had any questions about how
OASIS mixes with non-profits. If you have the time, of course.
davidw@dedasys.com (David N. Welton) writes:
> Debian has been part of the OASIS group for a couple years. If you
> are interested, I can ask the person spearheading that to send a
> message to this list.
In the meanwhile, here's something that was written about OASIS and
Debian:
http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/12323/
Thankyou,
--
David N. Welton
Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/
Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/
Photos: http://www.dedasys.com/photos/
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Re: OASIS
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, David Crossley wrote:
> David N. Welton wrote:
> > Debian has been part of the OASIS group for a couple years. If you
> > are interested, I can ask the person spearheading that to send a
> > message to this list.
>
> I reckon that is a good idea. It would be relevant to hear
> how other opensource groups have managed to participate.
+1
Dw.
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Re: OASIS
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
David N. Welton wrote:
> Debian has been part of the OASIS group for a couple years. If you
> are interested, I can ask the person spearheading that to send a
> message to this list.
I reckon that is a good idea. It would be relevant to hear
how other opensource groups have managed to participate.
--
David Crossley
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Re: OASIS
Posted by "David N. Welton" <da...@dedasys.com>.
Debian has been part of the OASIS group for a couple years. If you
are interested, I can ask the person spearheading that to send a
message to this list.
--
David N. Welton
Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/
Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/
Photos: http://www.dedasys.com/photos/
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Re: OASIS
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jun 2004, Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
>
>>>So, far, are there *ANY* volunteers?
>>
>>If we manage to sort out the infrastructure/logistics and all the other
>>points Dirk correctly raised, count me in.
>
> The volutneers wil be an active part of that - though we'll make sure that
> wee offer as much assistance as needed; and help to make sure that what
> lessons learned during earlier interactions with, say, the JCP process, is
> not lost.
The JCP process was, and remains, a time consuming activity.
Prior to establishing a formal relationship between Apache and the JCP,
there effectively were a number of ASF people who were participating as
"independents" in the JCP process. And there was interest from the ASF
in formalizing this.
If we create a formal relationship with OASIS, I want to ensure that it
is sustainable.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: OASIS
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004, Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
> > So, far, are there *ANY* volunteers?
>
> If we manage to sort out the infrastructure/logistics and all the other
> points Dirk correctly raised, count me in.
The volutneers wil be an active part of that - though we'll make sure that
wee offer as much assistance as needed; and help to make sure that what
lessons learned during earlier interactions with, say, the JCP process, is
not lost.
Dw.
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RE: OASIS
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> Couple of the folks working on implementing WS-SecureConversation
> are interested in joining that TC (if and when it appears in
> OASIS ..).
Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
> If we manage to sort out the infrastructure/logistics and all the
> other points Dirk correctly raised, count me in.
Berin Lautenbach wrote:
> I think I've mentioned in the past I'd be interested in the
> security areas.
And I would expect folks from UDDI, WSRP, possibly POI, etc., to have an
interest.
Is there some way we can start to record and leverage this interest?
--- Noel
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Re: OASIS
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
Couple of the folks working on implementing WS-SecureConversation
are interested in joining that TC (if and when it appears in
OASIS ..).
Sanjiva.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>
To: <co...@apache.org>
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 9:00 PM
Subject: RE: OASIS
> Sam Ruby wrote:
> > Leo Simons wrote:
> >> If there's enough volunteers.
> > So, far, are there *ANY* volunteers?
>
> I would hope that at least folks who are directly involved, particularly
> from our Web Services, Portals and XML-Security projects, would volunteer.
> I have a few specific names in mind.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
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Re: OASIS
Posted by Berin Lautenbach <be...@wingsofhermes.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> I would hope that at least folks who are directly involved, particularly
> from our Web Services, Portals and XML-Security projects, would volunteer.
> I have a few specific names in mind.
<GRIN>. I think I've mentioned in the past I'd be interested in the
security areas.
Cheers,
Berin
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RE: OASIS
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
> Leo Simons wrote:
>> If there's enough volunteers.
> So, far, are there *ANY* volunteers?
I would hope that at least folks who are directly involved, particularly
from our Web Services, Portals and XML-Security projects, would volunteer.
I have a few specific names in mind.
--- Noel
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Re: OASIS
Posted by Gianugo Rabellino <gi...@apache.org>.
On Jun 28, 2004, at 4:13 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Leo Simons wrote:
>
>> If there's enough volunteers.
>
> So, far, are there *ANY* volunteers?
If we manage to sort out the infrastructure/logistics and all the other
points Dirk correctly raised, count me in.
Ciao,
--
Gianugo Rabellino
Pro-netics s.r.l. - http://www.pro-netics.com
Orixo, the XML business alliance: http://www.orixo.com
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Re: OASIS
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Leo Simons wrote:
> If there's enough volunteers.
So, far, are there *ANY* volunteers?
- Sam Ruby
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Re: OASIS
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004, Leo Simons wrote:
> > Within the ASF we have a number of projects which deal with formats
> > and standards close to OASIS.
>
> random examples: docbook, uddi, relax ng.
And POI for the office doc standards; something Oasis is getting into
seriously.
> Do you think it makes sense in light of all the objections you raised?
Well as you say:
> Generally, I think it is good for organisations like the ASF to have a
> say about technological standards. I think the JCP opened up
> significantly thanks to the ASF and if that's an exercise that we can
> repeat without any detrimental effect to the ASF...sure. If there's
> enough volunteers.
Dw
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Re: OASIS
Posted by Leo Simons <ls...@jicarilla.org>.
Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
> Within the ASF we have a number of projects which deal with formats
> and standards close to OASIS.
random examples: docbook, uddi, relax ng.
> We've been approached by OASIS to see if it makes sense to join them. This
> is a call out to Community to see if that makes sense.
Why does Oasis think it makes sense? Just because we implement some of
their standards?
Do you think it makes sense in light of all the objections you raised?
Can you elaborate?
> -> Any 'pay to play' is generally an issue for us on fundamental
> grounds.
exactly. Looking at the current oasis setup, it seems its also "pay more
to play more", which I like even less. (This as opposed to an
organisation like eclipse where its more "pay as you can probably afford
because we really do need some money".)
> But having said that - we've been able to resolve these issues in the
> past with some other similar organisations.
right. I think most differences (like the preferred communication
medium) are easy enough to resolve, as long as there is enough benefit.
> So - community - do we see enough benefit to start this conversation with
> Oasis?
Uhm, no. But so far no-one has even tried to show any benefits and I'm
pretty ignorant so that's not very surprising :-D
> Do we want to be close to some of their standards ?
Me personally, nope.
Generally, I think it is good for organisations like the ASF to have a
say about technological standards. I think the JCP opened up
significantly thanks to the ASF and if that's an exercise that we can
repeat without any detrimental effect to the ASF...sure. If there's
enough volunteers. I'm not particularly interested in most of the OASIS
standards myself.
from the peanut gallery,
- LSD
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Re: OASIS
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@4quarters.com>.
On Jun 27, 2004, at 5:20 PM, Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
>
> On Sun, 27 Jun 2004, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>
>>> I'll give this conversation a week or so to build up; and if not -
>>> will
>>> send a polite msg to Oasis saying; thanks for the offer but not at
>>> this
>>> time.
>>
>> I think you should also provide some list of 'benefits' for ASF to
>
> Ok - personal benefits (without my ASF hat):
>
> -> be able to give excelent feedback to the open
> standards processes, making them better, making
> the asf better and strengthening open standards and
> opensource in general.
And this is important. From my experience with the JCP, it's clear
that "generally clueless" is the way to describe most people when it
comes to open source.
>
> -> prevent the creation of standards which while
> open cannot be realistically implemented or
> maintained in the open source world.
>
+1
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: OASIS
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
On Sun, 27 Jun 2004, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> > I'll give this conversation a week or so to build up; and if not - will
> > send a polite msg to Oasis saying; thanks for the offer but not at this
> > time.
>
> I think you should also provide some list of 'benefits' for ASF to
Ok - personal benefits (without my ASF hat):
-> be able to give excelent feedback to the open
standards processes, making them better, making
the asf better and strengthening open standards and
opensource in general.
-> prevent the creation of standards which while
open cannot be realistically implemented or
maintained in the open source world.
Dw
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Re: OASIS
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
> I'll give this conversation a week or so to build up; and if not - will
> send a polite msg to Oasis saying; thanks for the offer but not at this
> time.
I think you should also provide some list of 'benefits' for ASF to
participate. (Additional work and cost for us, benefitting someone
else, that are not OSS in nature doesn't sound like the natural
marriage for ASF.)
Cheers
Niclas
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Re: OASIS
Posted by Ben Hyde <bh...@pobox.com>.
On Jun 27, 2004, at 2:09 PM, Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
> Within the ASF we have a number of projects which deal with formats
> and standards close to OASIS.
This needed not be an all or nothing enterprise. We could establish a
mailing list who's topic is "OASIS: what's the deal?" Then we
encourage members or committers to join that list who are already
dealing with OASIS wearing other hats. Rather than focus on the specs
being writing in they could focus on the rules that govern OASIS.
What's up with that if you show up you vote rule? How hard is it to
jam a meeting with supporters? Who's actually on the OASIS board and
how much power to they have? What are the IP rules and do they work?
After a bit of that kind of discussion we would be a lot better
prepared to think about the risks and benefits from a real ties to
OASIS.
I have liked that the ASF rendezvous the work around functioning code
more than specs.
- ben
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Re: OASIS
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>.
Torsten Curdt dijo:
>> But having said that - we've been able to resolve these issues in the
>> past with some other similar organisations.
>>
>> So - community - do we see enough benefit to start this conversation
>> with
>> Oasis ? Do we want to be close to some of their standards ?
>
> If the issues can be resolved this doesn't sound
> like a too bad idea. The ASF having a bit more
> influence on some standards sound appealing
> to me.
+1
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo
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Re: OASIS
Posted by Torsten Curdt <tc...@vafer.org>.
> But having said that - we've been able to resolve these issues in the
> past with some other similar organisations.
>
> So - community - do we see enough benefit to start this conversation with
> Oasis ? Do we want to be close to some of their standards ?
If the issues can be resolved this doesn't sound
like a too bad idea. The ASF having a bit more
influence on some standards sound appealing
to me.
my 2 cents
--
Torsten
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RE: OASIS
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> We've been approached by OASIS to see if it makes sense to join them.
> This is a call out to Community to see if that makes sense.
> There are a number of obstacles when working with OASIS (or the w3c for
> that matter) compared to working with some of the other/normal standards
> bodies such as the IETF.
> But having said that - we've been able to resolve these issues in the
> past with some other similar organisations.
We all know how aggravated some people were with various JSRs that were
developed in a less than open fashion. The JCP has changed. There are
issues regarding OSS and TCK compliance claims. People are working on them.
OASIS owns similarly critical things. So, yes, I see that there is enough
benefit, if we have people who are willing to do the heavylifting of taking
a can opener to their processes.
--- Noel
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