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Posted to dev@lucy.apache.org by "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> on 2011/08/21 05:46:45 UTC
[lucy-dev] [DISCUSS] Lucy=>Graduation?
Hey Guys,
With Marvin's recent 0.2.1 RM spearheading, we've got 3 releases of Lucy:
0.1.0
0.2.0
0.2.1
We've elected a new committer (David), and really done a ton of work here
to prove that Lucy can succeed in the Apache way. Sure it's not a huge
community, and yes Marvin is still the driving force, but we consistently get
at least 3 VOTEs for releases and new personnel and such and I think we've
fulfilled the Incubator requirements for graduation.
Thoughts?
Cheers,
Chris
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
Senior Computer Scientist
NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Re: [lucy-dev] [DISCUSS] Lucy=>Graduation?
Posted by Chris Hostetter <ho...@fucit.org>.
: suppose it makes sense for you to part ways with Lucy on graduation, but it
: will be a challenge for us to govern the project in your absence as well as
: steadily and effectively as it was governed while you were here. Others
: community members will have to step up.
Fear not: as and ASF member, I'll be happy to stay on the Lucy PMC mailing
list well after graduation and chime in with any advice that may occur to
me; but PMC Members needs to represent the project community, and I would
not be able to do that.
-Hoss
Re: [lucy-dev] [DISCUSS] Lucy=>Graduation?
Posted by Torsten Curdt <tc...@vafer.org>.
> Of the ten people who are officially Apache Lucy committers, there are three
> who have made sizeable contributions of code: myself, Peter Karman and Joe
> Schaefer. (That report does not reflect the bulk of Peter's code
> contributions, which pre-date the code grant). Nate Kurz has been invaluable
> to the project, but with a few awesome exceptions, he has typically
> contributed design rather than code.
>
> Historically, there have been two other individuals who've made sustained,
> sizable contributions of code (at least several dozen patches over months or
> years) -- Chris Nandor and Father Chrysostomos -- but neither of them are
> active now.
....and that is the problem that I am seeing. If you were to leave the
project today - would the project still survive?
If the answer is "yes" then there is a community and Lucy could be
ready for graduation. Judging from the subversion logs that is not the
case yet. Maybe some of the stats are misleading because of the
initial import - but still. These are the results of a statsvn run and
the dates of the last commits...
marvin 152745 (99.4%) 2011-08-23 05:00
joes 784 (0.5%) 2011-06-01 00:55
karpet 103 (0.1%) 2011-05-24 04:03
mattmann 4 (0.0%) 2011-05-20 22:59
mikemccand 0 (0.0%) 2010-10-14 10:48
> I think the project is
> best served if our energies go towards supporting the people who have somehow
> found a way to contribute rather than worrying over the people who may some
> day find a way to contribute.
But wasn't your argument that incubation hurts finding those future
contributors?
>> Sorry, didn't want to ruin the party :)
>
> A critique is a contribution, and we thank you for it.
I am so looking forward to Lucy being all good and ready - at least
enough so I can help out and use it, too :-p
Marvin, I think you are doing a great job here. I just think we need
more guys like you before Lucy can graduate.
cheers,
Torsten
Re: [lucy-dev] [DISCUSS] Lucy=>Graduation?
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 09:53:51PM +0200, Torsten Curdt wrote:
> I am subscribed to the Lucy list for only a few months (at best) so maybe I
> am missing something (do I?) but frankly speaking as a ASF member I don't
> see Lucy ready as a TLP yet.
TLP or not TLP... FWIW, graduation won't change my routine or my priorities.
I'm still going to be focused on helping self-starters achieve the goals they
set for themselves.
> How many committers are there? How many people subscribed to users?
>
> http://markmail.org/search/?q=lucy#query:lucy%20list%3Aorg.apache.lucene.lucy-commits+page:1+state:facets
Of the ten people who are officially Apache Lucy committers, there are three
who have made sizeable contributions of code: myself, Peter Karman and Joe
Schaefer. (That report does not reflect the bulk of Peter's code
contributions, which pre-date the code grant). Nate Kurz has been invaluable
to the project, but with a few awesome exceptions, he has typically
contributed design rather than code.
Historically, there have been two other individuals who've made sustained,
sizable contributions of code (at least several dozen patches over months or
years) -- Chris Nandor and Father Chrysostomos -- but neither of them are
active now.
> IMO adding more languages (even as a proof of concept) will help to bring
> people on board and help to grow the community. Just going TLP will not
> lower this bar of entry.
It's a good suggestion, and working to make Lucy available from more languages
is already a top priority. Still, we've seen certain people clamber over the
bar to entry (Joe, Brad), while others have blanched. I think the project is
best served if our energies go towards supporting the people who have somehow
found a way to contribute rather than worrying over the people who may some
day find a way to contribute.
> Sorry, didn't want to ruin the party :)
A critique is a contribution, and we thank you for it.
Cheers,
Marvin Humphrey
Re: [lucy-dev] [DISCUSS] Lucy=>Graduation?
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
Hi Torsten,
On Aug 28, 2011, at 12:53 PM, Torsten Curdt wrote:
>>> The only other important question i would wonder about for graduation is
>>> community building. The Lucy community still seems kind of small, so
>>> there is a question to consider of wether being under the incubator is
>>> (still) helping with the visibility of the project to grow the community,
>>> or if near term community growth would be greater if Lucy graduated to a
>>> TLP?
>>
>> I suspect that Lucy's incubating status hinders community growth. I don't
>> think we are reaching many potential recruits via the Incubator we would not
>> otherwise reach via other Apache channels. And I think that the incubation
>> disclaimer plants a seed of doubt in the mind of each newcomer assessing Lucy
>> and determining whether to get involved.
>
> I really doubt that the incubation status is a major factor that
> hinders community growth. I am subscribed to the Lucy list for only a
> few months (at best) so maybe I am missing something (do I?) but
> frankly speaking as a ASF member I don't see Lucy ready as a TLP yet.
>
> How many committers are there? How many people subscribed to users?
The # of committers and people subscribed to users@ (which includes
being an ASF member as well) are things that can increase (or decrease) whether
it's a TLP or not.
>
> http://markmail.org/search/?q=lucy#query:lucy%20list%3Aorg.apache.lucene.lucy-commits+page:1+state:facets
>
> IMO adding more languages (even as a proof of concept) will help to
> bring people on board and help to grow the community. Just going TLP
> will not lower this bar of entry. I don't think graduating based on
> this hope is a good idea.
I don't think that's the driving force (or hope at least in my mind) behind graduation.
I started this thread because I think Lucy has fulfilled criteria that we set out to
when we entered the Incubator:
* Grow a community outside of Lucene, which includes electing new committers [check]
* Make at least one ASF blessed release (which Lucy did not do in its years under the Lucene umbrella) [check]
I still believe those are true. We can wait until we vet the final issues with the parser and JSON
stuff, but those are all actionable, near-term things.
Cheers,
Chris
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
Senior Computer Scientist
NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Re: [lucy-dev] [DISCUSS] Lucy=>Graduation?
Posted by Torsten Curdt <tc...@vafer.org>.
>> The only other important question i would wonder about for graduation is
>> community building. The Lucy community still seems kind of small, so
>> there is a question to consider of wether being under the incubator is
>> (still) helping with the visibility of the project to grow the community,
>> or if near term community growth would be greater if Lucy graduated to a
>> TLP?
>
> I suspect that Lucy's incubating status hinders community growth. I don't
> think we are reaching many potential recruits via the Incubator we would not
> otherwise reach via other Apache channels. And I think that the incubation
> disclaimer plants a seed of doubt in the mind of each newcomer assessing Lucy
> and determining whether to get involved.
I really doubt that the incubation status is a major factor that
hinders community growth. I am subscribed to the Lucy list for only a
few months (at best) so maybe I am missing something (do I?) but
frankly speaking as a ASF member I don't see Lucy ready as a TLP yet.
How many committers are there? How many people subscribed to users?
http://markmail.org/search/?q=lucy#query:lucy%20list%3Aorg.apache.lucene.lucy-commits+page:1+state:facets
IMO adding more languages (even as a proof of concept) will help to
bring people on board and help to grow the community. Just going TLP
will not lower this bar of entry. I don't think graduating based on
this hope is a good idea.
Sorry, didn't want to ruin the party :)
cheers,
Torsten
Re: [lucy-dev] [DISCUSS] Lucy=>Graduation?
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 11:33:28AM -0700, Chris Hostetter wrote:
> The only other important question i would wonder about for graduation is
> community building. The Lucy community still seems kind of small, so
> there is a question to consider of wether being under the incubator is
> (still) helping with the visibility of the project to grow the community,
> or if near term community growth would be greater if Lucy graduated to a
> TLP?
I suspect that Lucy's incubating status hinders community growth. I don't
think we are reaching many potential recruits via the Incubator we would not
otherwise reach via other Apache channels. And I think that the incubation
disclaimer plants a seed of doubt in the mind of each newcomer assessing Lucy
and determining whether to get involved.
> FYI: Although I've enjoyed being a mentor/champion for Lucy, I don't
> really consider myself a Lucy dev or even a user, so I would decline
> membership on the initial Lucy PMC as part of the graduation.
All good things must come to an end. :)
You've provided us with many thought-provoking and insightful emails over the
last year, Hoss. We were just discussing how much we liked your post on
"hats" and CPAN releases on #lucy_dev the other day; it was characteristic of
you to identify an unusually difficult situation, think it through, and
parachute in with clarifying input like that. (To me, it's reminiscent of the
role that Roy Fielding seems to play in the larger Apache organization.) I
suppose it makes sense for you to part ways with Lucy on graduation, but it
will be a challenge for us to govern the project in your absence as well as
steadily and effectively as it was governed while you were here. Others
community members will have to step up.
I don't know whether you will go on to volunteer as a Mentor for other
Incubator projects, but you're both knowledgable and talented and we've been
very fortunate to have you.
> Assuming Marvin is ok with being VP, i think that's fine for graduation;
> but given the significant role Marvin has played historicaly, it would
> probably be a good idea to plan on switching the Chair to someone else
> after no more then a year -- not because of the Chair's
> roles/responsibility to the project are so critical, but because giving
> the job to someone else in the Lucy community helps them learn more about
> the higher levels of the ASF process; like dealing with the board, etc....
+1
I'm honored to be suggested as a candidate for VP and I accept the nomination,
but I believe it is in the best interest of the project that I leave that role
sooner rather than later. There are plenty of other people on the PPMC who
are capable of serving as VP.
> Speaking of switching the chair: even if graduation is a month or two off,
> now is a good time to start thinking about the specifics of the "Lucy
> Charter" to put forth as part of the graduation resolution to the board
> and any "Lucy Bylaws" that the project wnats to have as a TLP.
>
> https://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html#tlp-resolution
> https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/board/templates/podling-tlp-resolution.txt
>
> It seems like 99% of projects just cut/paste the resolution template, and
> 99% of projects don't ever write any project bylaws -- and that's "ok" --
> but if Lucy wants to spell out some rules of how the project shall be run
> (like "The Lucy PMC SHALL hold a vote for the Lucy Chair once a year" or
Hey, that sounds like a good idea. +1
> "All contributers who are voted to be Lucy committers SHALL be offered
> membership on the Lucy PMC", etc...)
I've thought hard about this subject, and I've decided that I prefer the
traditional divide between committers and PMC members. My rationale is that
commit bits should be cheap, and therefore we shouldn't require ourselves to
make a costly assessment as to whether someone would make a good PMC member
when offering them a commit bit.
Marvin Humphrey
Re: [lucy-dev] [DISCUSS] Lucy=>Graduation?
Posted by Chris Hostetter <ho...@fucit.org>.
: > How about we revisit the issue of graduation after a Release Manager other
: > than Mattmann or myself shepherds through an 0.3.0 release which resolves all
: > our remaining licensing issues?
I've not been involved in many incubator projects, but as I understand it:
one rule of thumb is that a project is ready to graduate when the PPMC
starts to feel like dealing with the IPMC is just slowing them down, and
the IPMC stops finding things to worry about and feels like the reports
from the PPMC are just distracting them from other projects that have
problems.
I suspect that once the PPMC feels confortable with all the licensing
issues #1 is likely taken care of. Based on how smoothly the last few
reports/releases have happend, i think #2 is probably already done.
The only other important question i would wonder about for graduation is
community building. The Lucy community still seems kind of small, so
there is a question to consider of wether being under the incubator is
(still) helping with the visibility of the project to grow the community,
or if near term community growth would be greater if Lucy graduated to a
TLP?
: For completeness, I'd nominate Marvin as the VP of the project and include
: the current IPMC mentors, and PPMC members on Lucy's initial PMC.
FYI: Although I've enjoyed being a mentor/champion for Lucy, I don't
really consider myself a Lucy dev or even a user, so I would decline
membership on the initial Lucy PMC as part of the graduation.
Assuming Marvin is ok with being VP, i think that's fine for graduation;
but given the significant role Marvin has played historicaly, it would
probably be a good idea to plan on switching the Chair to someone else
after no more then a year -- not because of the Chair's
roles/responsibility to the project are so critical, but because giving
the job to someone else in the Lucy community helps them learn more about
the higher levels of the ASF process; like dealing with the board, etc....
Speaking of switching the chair: even if graduation is a month or two off,
now is a good time to start thinking about the specifics of the "Lucy
Charter" to put forth as part of the graduation resolution to the board
and any "Lucy Bylaws" that the project wnats to have as a TLP.
https://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html#tlp-resolution
https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/board/templates/podling-tlp-resolution.txt
It seems like 99% of projects just cut/paste the resolution template, and
99% of projects don't ever write any project bylaws -- and that's "ok" --
but if Lucy wants to spell out some rules of how the project shall be run
(like "The Lucy PMC SHALL hold a vote for the Lucy Chair once a year" or
"All contributers who are voted to be Lucy committers SHALL be offered
membership on the Lucy PMC", etc...) now may be a good time to talk about
that.
-Hoss
Re: [lucy-dev] [DISCUSS] Lucy=>Graduation?
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
Hey Guys,
On Aug 20, 2011, at 11:19 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
>
> How about we revisit the issue of graduation after a Release Manager other
> than Mattmann or myself shepherds through an 0.3.0 release which resolves all
> our remaining licensing issues?
Fair enough, but in my mind, not a strict requirement. I'll bring up this thread in a
month or so, but I think we're pretty much there.
For completeness, I'd nominate Marvin as the VP of the project and include
the current IPMC mentors, and PPMC members on Lucy's initial PMC.
Cheers,
Chris
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
Senior Computer Scientist
NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Re: [lucy-dev] [DISCUSS] Lucy=>Graduation?
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 10:55:19PM -0500, Peter Karman wrote:
> Do our remaining dependencies not having IP clearance matter? I'm thinking
> primarily of Parse::RecDescent because Marvin's recent JSON parser code should
> eliminate JSON::XS dependency.
Good call, Peter. I agree that we should eliminate this last licensing issue
prior to graduation. I'd estimate that a new implementation of
Clownfish::Parser based on Lemon rather than Parse::RecDescent can be
finished 2-3 weeks from now.
How about we revisit the issue of graduation after a Release Manager other
than Mattmann or myself shepherds through an 0.3.0 release which resolves all
our remaining licensing issues?
Marvin Humphrey
Re: [lucy-dev] [DISCUSS] Lucy=>Graduation?
Posted by Peter Karman <pe...@peknet.com>.
Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote on 8/20/11 10:46 PM:
> Hey Guys,
>
> With Marvin's recent 0.2.1 RM spearheading, we've got 3 releases of Lucy:
>
> 0.1.0
> 0.2.0
> 0.2.1
>
> We've elected a new committer (David), and really done a ton of work here
> to prove that Lucy can succeed in the Apache way. Sure it's not a huge
> community, and yes Marvin is still the driving force, but we consistently get
> at least 3 VOTEs for releases and new personnel and such and I think we've
> fulfilled the Incubator requirements for graduation.
>
> Thoughts?
Do our remaining dependencies not having IP clearance matter? I'm thinking
primarily of Parse::RecDescent because Marvin's recent JSON parser code should
eliminate JSON::XS dependency.
--
Peter Karman . http://peknet.com/ . peter@peknet.com