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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org> on 2014/05/02 23:26:20 UTC
Re: Native Language and Localization pages on cwiki might benefit
from some organization
On 25/04/2014 Jörg Schmidt wrote:
>> From: Louis Suárez-Potts
>> About the only place where I can see urgency for a kind of
>> plan is in QA and in meeting release dates. There would be
>> urgency simply to sync with the global marketing deadlines.
>> We had a lot of problems with this in OOo days and there is
>> no simple or even wholly satisfying solution. ...
> I think part of the problem are excessive formal requirements that are not always
> fulfilled in practice and then cause that happens nothing.
What requirements do you mean? Is there anything we can do better?
> Of course it is right to organize the marketing on an international level, if this
> is not to create, in some cases, locally organized marketing is better than none.
"Local" is not only better than nothing, it is vital! The fact that we
have an international marketing list does not mean that we only admit
centrally organized marketing activities. By the way, the international
list is way too quiet.
> Germany ... marketing activities (*) are there currently, supported by the PrOOo-Box
> (**), because there is only little local marketing from the AOO project directly.
I don't get the "directly". OpenOffice is marketed by its users, by its
volunteers. When we have the people we don't need anything else, let
alone any "formal" requirements. For example: if a "Free Software
Advocacy" day exists in Germany, with local workshops and presentations,
you just need the people if you want to talk about OpenOffice, you don't
need formal endorsements or so.
The international marketing exists to help local activities, not to kill
them: if you need a presentation about OpenOffice to translate in
German, or if you need someone to design materials that you want to
print and distribute, the marketing list is at your service. The project
can even pay for marketing materials, so feel free to ask.
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: Native Language and Localization pages on cwiki might benefit
from some organization
Posted by Alexandro Colorado <jz...@oooes.org>.
On 5/25/14, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 05/05/2014 Jörg Schmidt wrote:
>> I respect in the presence the existing decisions of the Community
>
> Rescuing this pre-outage discussion too... Note that in most cases these
> are not decisions, just what happens to be active now. And in any case
> we can revise it.
>
>> I think we need another real local communities as part of the
>> international
>> community.
>
> OK, so you mean: not only mailing list (that are easy to setup, for
> example a mailing list in German dedicated to events), but also ways to
> build a community. Here there's almost nothing we can do, say,
> "top-bottom"; this must grow from local events.
End users are usually to too much into participating in mailing lists,
they are more used to a social media type setup which is more related
with web-forums and chat to interact with other users.
Building a community do need those resources as well as other programs
such as the ones ran with other communities like Mozilla or
Canonical's local groups.
Marketing usually works as a way to coordinate activities with these
local groups for capaigns like release parties and party packages.
All this represent costs to the project and also a lot of dedicated
work. Not just from the organization but also community members that
are available to participate on these events.
Feature speakers, event driven organizations like hackatons, bug hunts
and barcamps.
>
>> in not a few cases, we have to decide whether we approve of local
>> activities, even
>> if they are not coordinated internationally, or whether we do without it.
>
> Local activities do not need coordination or approval. When I speak (in
> Italian) about OpenOffice at some nearby event, I don't ask for approval
> on the project lists and I simply clarify, at the event, that I'm not
> officially speaking on behalf of the project. The same holds for you and
> anyone else. We surely doesn't want to control communication at this level.
>
>> A few weeks ago we had on the German mailing list, a discussion in which,
>> for
>> example, Jürgen meant a FAQ website must always also primarily in the
>> project
>> language (English) exist.
>
> This would be a developer's dream but won't work for us. See
> http://www.openoffice.org/
> http://www.openoffice.org/da/
> http://www.openoffice.org/fr/
> http://www.openoffice.org/it/
>
> They evolved with a totally different structure. This looks very bad and
> must be fixed. The most reasonable way to me seems that we will have a
> "common" part (English original, replicate for other languages; this
> includes the layout) and a "specific" part where materials in native
> language will be shown, specific to each language (documentation in
> native language, announces about "local" events... OK there's a mixup
> between languages and countries but you get the idea).
>
>> Another example is that we do not have a German-language forum, and
>> currently no
>> people who want to do it. There are, however, for more than 10 years, the
>> outstanding German Forum http://de.openoffice.info.
>> Would not it be pragmatically useful if we the users completely equal
>> recommend
>> this Forum?
>
> Nothing prevents you from linking to a third party forum, especially if
> we don't have
> an official resource. (Maybe we'll want to check trademarks usage there,
> but this is another issue).
>
>> I myself volunteer worked in the German OOo-community more than 7 years (I
>> mean
>> OpenOffice_.org_ in this case) and I know quite accurately the former
>> costs for
>> marketing in Germany, those were _one year_ significantly above 10,000.00
>> Euros
>
> We don't have that budget available now. We do have a budget for
> OpenOffice events, but it is a one-time budget from which I expect we
> may spend a few thousands Euros/dollars per year. But in the next weeks
Usually on my experience travel expenses were around 2-3k dls per user
a year since usually the distance were much longer in South/North
america. Important events such as Latinoware, FISL, CNSL and
CampusParty involved a lot of miles and logistic. Some with a more
user-centric approach which for our porpouses is what we want to get
at.
LibreOffice Brazil make huge investments in the marketing of the brand
acros Brazil which also result in a large userbase and eventually
recruitment of development. AOO on the other side is still known
(OpenOffice.org former self) but largely ignore on the current status
of the project.
> we will probably see changes about targeted donations (now not used at
> Apache): this may allow to start dedicated fundraising campaigns if we
> find it useful to do so.
>
> Regards,
> Andrea.
>
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>
--
Alexandro Colorado
Apache OpenOffice Contributor
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Re: Local marketing and resources (Re: Native Language and
Localization pages on cwiki might benefit from some organization)
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org> wrote:
> Alexandro Colorado wrote:
>
>> On 5/27/14, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
>>>
>>> http://openoffice.apache.org/press.html that is used to route requests
>>> to the appropriate person depending on the request.
>>
>> Who decides who is the appropriate person? If someone send an email in
>> chineese requesting a contact, would it be routed to the chineese
>> community or to a specific person? Who will that person be? If an
>> event is looking for available speakers, how will press find the
>> correct speaker closest to the location and available to give a talk?
>> Has this situation happened before, how was it handled?
>
>
> We never received this kind of requests. Most of the times press@ is used
> for simple requests, you can read
> http://www.openoffice.org/marketing/press_kit.html
> to have an idea of the most frequently asked questions.
>
> The press@ alias goes to the whole PMC, so it's still a rather large group
> and can deal with no problems with simple requests. If requests like the
> above ones (say, an event in India looking for speakers and contacting
> press@ to find a speaker) occur, the person making the request will maybe be
> told to contact the mailing lists. But nothing like this happened so far.
>
Exactly. We have a single press contact address that goes to the PMC.
That is because we have a single project.
In most cases the request is in English and any of us can respond.
Someone will often draft a response, circulate it for review and then
send it on. In a few cases we've had a request for another language,
like German, in which case we identify a native speaker of that
language when possible.
-Rob
>
> Regards,
> Andrea.
>
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Re: Local marketing and resources (Re: Native Language and Localization
pages on cwiki might benefit from some organization)
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
Alexandro Colorado wrote:
> On 5/27/14, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
>> http://openoffice.apache.org/press.html that is used to route requests
>> to the appropriate person depending on the request.
> Who decides who is the appropriate person? If someone send an email in
> chineese requesting a contact, would it be routed to the chineese
> community or to a specific person? Who will that person be? If an
> event is looking for available speakers, how will press find the
> correct speaker closest to the location and available to give a talk?
> Has this situation happened before, how was it handled?
We never received this kind of requests. Most of the times press@ is
used for simple requests, you can read
http://www.openoffice.org/marketing/press_kit.html
to have an idea of the most frequently asked questions.
The press@ alias goes to the whole PMC, so it's still a rather large
group and can deal with no problems with simple requests. If requests
like the above ones (say, an event in India looking for speakers and
contacting press@ to find a speaker) occur, the person making the
request will maybe be told to contact the mailing lists. But nothing
like this happened so far.
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: Local marketing and resources (Re: Native Language and
Localization pages on cwiki might benefit from some organization)
Posted by Alexandro Colorado <jz...@oooes.org>.
On 5/27/14, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 26/05/2014 Jörg Schmidt wrote:
>> Yes, a local community must grow themselves, but they need structures
>> within the
>> overall international project. ...
>> I think we need to ask ourselves these questions of local structures and
>> _long-term_ need to create such structures.
>
> We don't need to create them in a formal way. At least, Apache tries to
> be as flat as possible here. For a number of reasons, for example,
> Apache has a policy that all project decisions are community decisions,
> and do not depend on an individual.
>
> So personal responsibilities (like: being the "press contact" for
> Germany) are generally not officially granted: rather than having a
> press contact for Germany, we have a generic press alias see
> http://openoffice.apache.org/press.html that is used to route requests
> to the appropriate person depending on the request.
Who decides who is the appropriate person? If someone send an email in
chineese requesting a contact, would it be routed to the chineese
community or to a specific person? Who will that person be? If an
event is looking for available speakers, how will press find the
correct speaker closest to the location and available to give a talk?
Has this situation happened before, how was it handled?
>
> This doesn't forbid that, informally, a person takes responsibility for
> a certain activity. But we don't officially grant the many roles we used
> to grant in the past.
>
>>> "common" part (English original, replicate for other languages; this
>>> includes the layout) and a "specific" part where materials in native
>>> language will be shown, specific to each language (documentation in
>>> native language, announces about "local" events...)
>> That's clear, but please look practice.
>> It is to say, a difference that _should be_ a English original there or it
>> _must
>> be_ a English original there.
>
> There must be some pages common to all languages (translated from the
> English site); and there can be content in German only, or French only,
> that only appears on the German/French website, like the 10-page article
> in German you imagine; then, if this content is good to have in other
> languages, someone can translate it to English and put it on the English
> site; but it is fine, and consistent with what we have now, to host
> language-specific content.
>
>> I am, for example, believe that we could get enough donations for Open
>> Office in
>> Germany to fund our local work and that could be used for general purposes
>> of
>> Apache at the same time still have money left over. But we need clear
>> agreements
>> for it, because of course the donors want their donation is tax
>> deductible, and
>> that's a question of local law.
>
> Jan wrote a couple good points, and I'll add that I'm not sure how
> tax-deductible donations work with foreign organizations. At the moment,
> the biggest obstacle is that Apache never collects money to some
> specific purpose (and here I'm not talking about paying for developers:
> Apache doesn't pay for developers directly and this won't change). A
> massive redesign of the fundraising policy, better suited to OpenOffice
> and in general to those projects that could use many small donations and
> spend them for specific purposes, is coming and it will be one of the
> initial tasks for next year's Apache Board.
>
> Regards,
> Andrea.
>
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>
>
--
Alexandro Colorado
Apache OpenOffice Contributor
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Local marketing and resources (Re: Native Language and Localization
pages on cwiki might benefit from some organization)
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
On 26/05/2014 Jörg Schmidt wrote:
> Yes, a local community must grow themselves, but they need structures within the
> overall international project. ...
> I think we need to ask ourselves these questions of local structures and
> _long-term_ need to create such structures.
We don't need to create them in a formal way. At least, Apache tries to
be as flat as possible here. For a number of reasons, for example,
Apache has a policy that all project decisions are community decisions,
and do not depend on an individual.
So personal responsibilities (like: being the "press contact" for
Germany) are generally not officially granted: rather than having a
press contact for Germany, we have a generic press alias see
http://openoffice.apache.org/press.html that is used to route requests
to the appropriate person depending on the request.
This doesn't forbid that, informally, a person takes responsibility for
a certain activity. But we don't officially grant the many roles we used
to grant in the past.
>> "common" part (English original, replicate for other languages; this
>> includes the layout) and a "specific" part where materials in native
>> language will be shown, specific to each language (documentation in
>> native language, announces about "local" events...)
> That's clear, but please look practice.
> It is to say, a difference that _should be_ a English original there or it _must
> be_ a English original there.
There must be some pages common to all languages (translated from the
English site); and there can be content in German only, or French only,
that only appears on the German/French website, like the 10-page article
in German you imagine; then, if this content is good to have in other
languages, someone can translate it to English and put it on the English
site; but it is fine, and consistent with what we have now, to host
language-specific content.
> I am, for example, believe that we could get enough donations for Open Office in
> Germany to fund our local work and that could be used for general purposes of
> Apache at the same time still have money left over. But we need clear agreements
> for it, because of course the donors want their donation is tax deductible, and
> that's a question of local law.
Jan wrote a couple good points, and I'll add that I'm not sure how
tax-deductible donations work with foreign organizations. At the moment,
the biggest obstacle is that Apache never collects money to some
specific purpose (and here I'm not talking about paying for developers:
Apache doesn't pay for developers directly and this won't change). A
massive redesign of the fundraising policy, better suited to OpenOffice
and in general to those projects that could use many small donations and
spend them for specific purposes, is coming and it will be one of the
initial tasks for next year's Apache Board.
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: Native Language and Localization pages on cwiki might benefit from some organization
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> From: jan i [mailto:jani@apache.org]
> We need to be very careful here. I dont know the german laws,
> but in many
> countries a donation is only tax deductible if given to a non-profit
> foundation (like apache), as soon as the money is "earmarked"
> "targeted"
> they are not considered given to the foundation and therefore not
> deductible.
>
> The background for it is very clear, the tax offices dont
> want companies to
> start a project within a non-profit foundation, and thereby
> get immediate
> tax release (donation is released same year as given). If a
> company does
> development it is considered an invested and the tax release
> comes over
> typically 3-5 years.
You are absolutely right .
It is needless to mention at the moment details, because I did not intend with my suggestion that we should do something in the short term .
I myself am but well informed about these legal issues because they concerned us at the German OOo-community and because we are familiar in the third party project http://www.prooo-box.org with it.
In addition, I would point out that we in the AOO community also have a right German attorney, Michael (its committer id is "mikeadvo").
Gretings,
Jörg
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Re: Native Language and Localization pages on cwiki might benefit
from some organization
Posted by jan i <ja...@apache.org>.
On 26 May 2014 10:37, Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de> wrote:
> Hello Andrea, *,
>
> > From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pescetti@apache.org]
>
> > OK, so you mean: not only mailing list (that are easy to setup, for
> > example a mailing list in German dedicated to events), but
> > also ways to
> > build a community. Here there's almost nothing we can do, say,
> > "top-bottom"; this must grow from local events.
>
> > [...]
>
> > Local activities do not need coordination or approval. When I
> > speak (in
> > Italian) about OpenOffice at some nearby event, I don't ask
> > for approval
> > on the project lists and I simply clarify, at the event, that I'm not
> > officially speaking on behalf of the project. The same holds
> > for you and
> > anyone else. We surely doesn't want to control communication
> > at this level.
>
> That is clear, but that 's not exactly what I mean.
>
> Yes, a local community must grow themselves, but they need structures
> within the
> overall international project.
>
> ( I speak in the following about German, but his statement applies to all
> countries / languages)
>
> First:
> ------
> There is a difference between the German-speaking community [1] and the
> German
> community [2] and the German community does not have a formal structure,
> such as
> because the website de.openoffice.org is not the website of the German
> community
> but only the German translation of the international website.
> What is missing is the function as a part of the structure of the project.
> There,
> for example, missing official local representatives (in OOo these were the
> co-leads).
>
> [1]
> these are people speak German, but do not work locally (for example
> developers)
> [2]
> these are people who work mainly locally
>
>
> In the simplest case could be members of the AOO PMC additionally assume
> this
> function, but that will not work well because "local representative" is a
> full-time job. A good developer does not have the time for it.
> I think we need to ask ourselves these questions of local structures and
> _long-term_ need to create such structures.
>
> Second:
> -------
> I join (mutatis mutandis) to the what Alexandro says: LibreOffice is way
> ahead of
> us in these things and they are it's a question of organization, manpower
> and
> money.
>
> In my work for OOo I know this is manpower important than money, but it
> depends on
> the right combination of money and manpower, both in software development
> as well
> as the local marketing work.
>
> > They evolved with a totally different structure. This looks
> > very bad and
> > must be fixed. The most reasonable way to me seems that we
> > will have a
> > "common" part (English original, replicate for other languages; this
> > includes the layout) and a "specific" part where materials in native
> > language will be shown, specific to each language (documentation in
> > native language, announces about "local" events... OK there's a mixup
> > between languages and countries but you get the idea).
>
> That's clear, but please look practice.
>
> It is to say, a difference that _should be_ a English original there or it
> _must
> be_ a English original there.
> In the worst case, the requirement may, after an English original cause,
> the
> volunteers do without your help.
>
> Why?
> Look at me, I am a professional expert on OpenOffice and it is easy for me
> a
> ten-page article (in German) to write about the Extension Manager. The same
> article, however, in English is very difficult for me.
>
>
> > Nothing prevents you from linking to a third party forum,
> > especially if
> > we don't have
> > an official resource.
>
> OK.
>
> > (Maybe we'll want to check trademarks
> > usage there,
> > but this is another issue).
>
> Yes, clear.
>
> > We don't have that budget available now. We do have a budget for
> > OpenOffice events, but it is a one-time budget from which I expect we
> > may spend a few thousands Euros/dollars per year. But in the
> > next weeks
> > we will probably see changes about targeted donations (now
> > not used at
> > Apache): this may allow to start dedicated fundraising
> > campaigns if we
> > find it useful to do so.
>
> I think there is in practice a major problem, namely the donors want to
> donate
> directly to work on Open Office and not for Apache in general.
>
> It might be helpful for us if we would understand this concern for donors
> and for
> opportunities would open up.
>
> I am, for example, believe that we could get enough donations for Open
> Office in
> Germany to fund our local work and that could be used for general purposes
> of
> Apache at the same time still have money left over. But we need clear
> agreements
> for it, because of course the donors want their donation is tax
> deductible, and
> that's a question of local law.
>
We need to be very careful here. I dont know the german laws, but in many
countries a donation is only tax deductible if given to a non-profit
foundation (like apache), as soon as the money is "earmarked" "targeted"
they are not considered given to the foundation and therefore not
deductible.
The background for it is very clear, the tax offices dont want companies to
start a project within a non-profit foundation, and thereby get immediate
tax release (donation is released same year as given). If a company does
development it is considered an invested and the tax release comes over
typically 3-5 years.
Rgds
jan I.
> Greetings,
> Jörg
>
>
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>
Re: Native Language and Localization pages on cwiki might benefit from some organization
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
Hello Andrea, *,
> From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pescetti@apache.org]
> OK, so you mean: not only mailing list (that are easy to setup, for
> example a mailing list in German dedicated to events), but
> also ways to
> build a community. Here there's almost nothing we can do, say,
> "top-bottom"; this must grow from local events.
> [...]
> Local activities do not need coordination or approval. When I
> speak (in
> Italian) about OpenOffice at some nearby event, I don't ask
> for approval
> on the project lists and I simply clarify, at the event, that I'm not
> officially speaking on behalf of the project. The same holds
> for you and
> anyone else. We surely doesn't want to control communication
> at this level.
That is clear, but that 's not exactly what I mean.
Yes, a local community must grow themselves, but they need structures within the
overall international project.
( I speak in the following about German, but his statement applies to all
countries / languages)
First:
------
There is a difference between the German-speaking community [1] and the German
community [2] and the German community does not have a formal structure, such as
because the website de.openoffice.org is not the website of the German community
but only the German translation of the international website.
What is missing is the function as a part of the structure of the project. There,
for example, missing official local representatives (in OOo these were the
co-leads).
[1]
these are people speak German, but do not work locally (for example developers)
[2]
these are people who work mainly locally
In the simplest case could be members of the AOO PMC additionally assume this
function, but that will not work well because "local representative" is a
full-time job. A good developer does not have the time for it.
I think we need to ask ourselves these questions of local structures and
_long-term_ need to create such structures.
Second:
-------
I join (mutatis mutandis) to the what Alexandro says: LibreOffice is way ahead of
us in these things and they are it's a question of organization, manpower and
money.
In my work for OOo I know this is manpower important than money, but it depends on
the right combination of money and manpower, both in software development as well
as the local marketing work.
> They evolved with a totally different structure. This looks
> very bad and
> must be fixed. The most reasonable way to me seems that we
> will have a
> "common" part (English original, replicate for other languages; this
> includes the layout) and a "specific" part where materials in native
> language will be shown, specific to each language (documentation in
> native language, announces about "local" events... OK there's a mixup
> between languages and countries but you get the idea).
That's clear, but please look practice.
It is to say, a difference that _should be_ a English original there or it _must
be_ a English original there.
In the worst case, the requirement may, after an English original cause, the
volunteers do without your help.
Why?
Look at me, I am a professional expert on OpenOffice and it is easy for me a
ten-page article (in German) to write about the Extension Manager. The same
article, however, in English is very difficult for me.
> Nothing prevents you from linking to a third party forum,
> especially if
> we don't have
> an official resource.
OK.
> (Maybe we'll want to check trademarks
> usage there,
> but this is another issue).
Yes, clear.
> We don't have that budget available now. We do have a budget for
> OpenOffice events, but it is a one-time budget from which I expect we
> may spend a few thousands Euros/dollars per year. But in the
> next weeks
> we will probably see changes about targeted donations (now
> not used at
> Apache): this may allow to start dedicated fundraising
> campaigns if we
> find it useful to do so.
I think there is in practice a major problem, namely the donors want to donate
directly to work on Open Office and not for Apache in general.
It might be helpful for us if we would understand this concern for donors and for
opportunities would open up.
I am, for example, believe that we could get enough donations for Open Office in
Germany to fund our local work and that could be used for general purposes of
Apache at the same time still have money left over. But we need clear agreements
for it, because of course the donors want their donation is tax deductible, and
that's a question of local law.
Greetings,
Jörg
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Re: Native Language and Localization pages on cwiki might benefit
from some organization
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
On 05/05/2014 Jörg Schmidt wrote:
> I respect in the presence the existing decisions of the Community
Rescuing this pre-outage discussion too... Note that in most cases these
are not decisions, just what happens to be active now. And in any case
we can revise it.
> I think we need another real local communities as part of the international
> community.
OK, so you mean: not only mailing list (that are easy to setup, for
example a mailing list in German dedicated to events), but also ways to
build a community. Here there's almost nothing we can do, say,
"top-bottom"; this must grow from local events.
> in not a few cases, we have to decide whether we approve of local activities, even
> if they are not coordinated internationally, or whether we do without it.
Local activities do not need coordination or approval. When I speak (in
Italian) about OpenOffice at some nearby event, I don't ask for approval
on the project lists and I simply clarify, at the event, that I'm not
officially speaking on behalf of the project. The same holds for you and
anyone else. We surely doesn't want to control communication at this level.
> A few weeks ago we had on the German mailing list, a discussion in which, for
> example, Jürgen meant a FAQ website must always also primarily in the project
> language (English) exist.
This would be a developer's dream but won't work for us. See
http://www.openoffice.org/
http://www.openoffice.org/da/
http://www.openoffice.org/fr/
http://www.openoffice.org/it/
They evolved with a totally different structure. This looks very bad and
must be fixed. The most reasonable way to me seems that we will have a
"common" part (English original, replicate for other languages; this
includes the layout) and a "specific" part where materials in native
language will be shown, specific to each language (documentation in
native language, announces about "local" events... OK there's a mixup
between languages and countries but you get the idea).
> Another example is that we do not have a German-language forum, and currently no
> people who want to do it. There are, however, for more than 10 years, the
> outstanding German Forum http://de.openoffice.info.
> Would not it be pragmatically useful if we the users completely equal recommend
> this Forum?
Nothing prevents you from linking to a third party forum, especially if
we don't have
an official resource. (Maybe we'll want to check trademarks usage there,
but this is another issue).
> I myself volunteer worked in the German OOo-community more than 7 years (I mean
> OpenOffice_.org_ in this case) and I know quite accurately the former costs for
> marketing in Germany, those were _one year_ significantly above 10,000.00 Euros
We don't have that budget available now. We do have a budget for
OpenOffice events, but it is a one-time budget from which I expect we
may spend a few thousands Euros/dollars per year. But in the next weeks
we will probably see changes about targeted donations (now not used at
Apache): this may allow to start dedicated fundraising campaigns if we
find it useful to do so.
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: Native Language and Localization pages on cwiki might benefit from some organization
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
before I begin:
-please take into account possible linguistic inaccuracies, my english is not the
best
-please understand that at the moment I do _not_ want to discuss basic things (or
new solutions), I respect in the presence the existing decisions of the Community
on Friday, May 02, 2014 11:26 PM Andrea Pescetti wrote:
> What requirements do you mean? Is there anything we can do better?
I think there is a problem and that is AOO the first Apache software project is
primarily intended for end users, not to experts.
Between a software like the Apache web server and AOO this respect, there is a big
difference.
What is the concrete 'problem'?
Specialists and experts have no problems with international structures, especially
not with English as the project language, but for many end users is to difficult.
They do not understand structures, they can not communicate in English and
therefore they remain in distance to the project.
What could be the solution, especially if one looks at the experience with
OpenOffice.org?
I think we need another real local communities as part of the international
community.
This is not an easy topic that is not an issue we can resolve quickly here, but it
is an important issue which we need to clarify in the next few years.
Yes, I mean "years", because it will take so long because many things must be
discussed with care.
> "Local" is not only better than nothing, it is vital!
Yes, thank you, at this point we are in total agreement.
> I don't get the "directly". OpenOffice is marketed by
> its users, by its volunteers.
It's simple, "directly" is the AOO project, and no, marketing is not made by
users. (because not all users simultaneously project volunteers are)
Not "directly" is also 8for example) the marketing from the PrOOo-box, because
although only OO community members collaborate applies the PrOOo box formally as
'third party', ie not belonging directly to the project.
> The
> fact that we
> have an international marketing list does not mean that we only admit
> centrally organized marketing activities.
This is clear for me, but there is also a practical side:
in not a few cases, we have to decide whether we approve of local activities, even
if they are not coordinated internationally, or whether we do without it.
English To many falls very heavy, so many local helper does not want to help if we
make the to international coordination.
A few weeks ago we had on the German mailing list, a discussion in which, for
example, Jürgen meant a FAQ website must always also primarily in the project
language (English) exist.
I understand this desire , but if we are guided by generally because we lose
potential accomplices , namely those which, although would be willing to create a
German -language FAQ, but not simultaneous are willing to make an English
translation of this FAQ .
Another example is that we do not have a German-language forum, and currently no
people who want to do it. There are, however, for more than 10 years, the
outstanding German Forum http://de.openoffice.info.
Would not it be pragmatically useful if we the users completely equal recommend
this Forum?
If I point to such problems often I get just a shrug.
> The international marketing exists to help local activities,
> not to kill
> them: if you need a presentation about OpenOffice to translate in
> German, or if you need someone to design materials that you want to
> print and distribute, the marketing list is at your service.
> The project
> can even pay for marketing materials, so feel free to ask.
Yes, that is clear.
Even I know that, and Detlef is currently in the process to make a request, but
let me say the following:
Is Apache clear how much money is involved here? It's not just about money for
flyers or similar materials, but also for technical equipment or sometimes money
for travel expenses.
I myself volunteer worked in the German OOo-community more than 7 years (I mean
OpenOffice_.org_ in this case) and I know quite accurately the former costs for
marketing in Germany, those were _one year_ significantly above 10,000.00 Euros
(approximately U.S. $ 13,750.00 at today's exchange rate), only for running costs.
And this money means only the money which has itself collected the German
OOo-community, and not money from SUN or Oracle.
I write this not because we currently need so much money, but I write it to
generally designate how big the financial needs when AOO similar successfully
developed as OOo earlier.
And because we can estimate this, it is time to look for ways like this is to
ensure in the future.
Greetings,
Jörg
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