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Posted to docs@cocoon.apache.org by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au> on 2002/11/01 05:02:16 UTC
Re: [PROPOSAL] Use Forrest to build Cocoon docs
Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
> Diana Shannon wrote:
> > David Crossley wrote:
<snip/>
>
> >> We know that there are
> >> varied issues that needed to be addressed. Those issues
> >> will only be discovered over time.
> >
> > But there are many issues we can discuss right now!
> > Why can't we draft
> > a proposal of how we'd do it right now?
>
> IMHO, Let's get started.
>
> Vadim
Yes, let us get the proposal happening.
Thinking along the lines of Bertrand Delacretaz:
"Using the Wiki for concepts and design"
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=103607167811513
I have been wondering for some time if Wiki would
be a good way to develop a proposal. Perhaps a mix
of cocoon-docs discussion and Wiki would work.
Another way would be a document in CVS plus the
cocoon-docs mailing list. Whichever way, we need
a document at the end of the process.
--David
Re: [PROPOSAL] Use Forrest to build Cocoon docs
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
David Crossley wrote:
>>Are you thinking of a staging website instead?
>>http://cvs.apache.org/~cocoonCommittersAccount/cocoon-staging?
>
>
> Our Apache committer spaces are a good place to demonstrate
> certain stuff that people are working on, but not a production
> staging mechanism.
Jeff has already been using cocoondev.org (the machine) for testing
Forrest prior to release, so maybe we can use it as a staging
environment for this transition.
Just tell me what you need.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://radio.weblogs.com/0103539/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Use Forrest to build Cocoon docs
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> >...
> > Here is the current list of dot-points from the Wiki:
>
> I'm basically ok with this list, some comments below.
>
> > . . .3. Staging mechanism for quality control of website production. . .
>
> I assume the Forrested docs will be generated by ant or a by script from the
> current CVS, isn't this sufficient? This can be reproduced by all of us and
> could be the "staging version" I think, assuming the docs generation process
> is well defined (including Forrest version, see below).
That is certainly sufficient for the initial phase.
This item #3 is there because it was an issue raised
in various threads pointed to by the Wiki. There were
a number of factors which we need to glean from them.
I think that this belongs in the "future" category.
> Are you thinking of a staging website instead?
> http://cvs.apache.org/~cocoonCommittersAccount/cocoon-staging?
Our Apache committer spaces are a good place to demonstrate
certain stuff that people are working on, but not a production
staging mechanism.
To answer your question, i do not know what i am thinking of :-)
I was just noting some concerns that i saw expressed.
--David
Re: [PROPOSAL] Use Forrest to build Cocoon docs
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Nov 15, 2002 at 07:32:45AM +0100, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Friday 15 November 2002 01:54, David Crossley wrote:
> >...
> > Here is the current list of dot-points from the Wiki:
>
> I'm basically ok with this list, some comments below.
>
> > . . .3. Staging mechanism for quality control of website production. . .
>
> I assume the Forrested docs will be generated by ant or a by script from the
> current CVS, isn't this sufficient? This can be reproduced by all of us and
> could be the "staging version" I think, assuming the docs generation process
> is well defined (including Forrest version, see below).
>
> Are you thinking of a staging website instead?
> http://cvs.apache.org/~cocoonCommittersAccount/cocoon-staging?
Icarus JDK is broken. cocoondev.org would be a better place, once it
gets going.
> Also, as Forrest is still moving quickly I think we will need a way to use a
> frozen version of Forrest during a docs "generation/check/staging/publish"
> cycle, which might last a few days if several people check the docs.
> Otherwise changes to Forrest might cause unwanted changes to the published
> docs during the cycle.
>
> How do we do this? Will we define the CVS tag or release date of the Forrest
> version to use?
A 0.2 release is being made in.. 9 hours or so.
--Jeff
> -Bertrand
Re: [PROPOSAL] Use Forrest to build Cocoon docs
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> >...
> > Here is the current list of dot-points from the Wiki:
>
> I'm basically ok with this list, ...<snip/>
I think that there is still valuable stuff in some
of the linked email, especially the ones listed in
the "To Do" section.
http://outerthought.net/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=ForrestProposal
I am gradually going through those, and finding more stuff
each time.
I just did another tidy up and also added some things from
recent email here.
By the way Bertrand, thanks very much for efforts with
the whole Cocoon Wiki, and also with this ForrestProposal.
--David
Re: [PROPOSAL] Use Forrest to build Cocoon docs
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
On Friday 15 November 2002 01:54, David Crossley wrote:
>...
> Here is the current list of dot-points from the Wiki:
I'm basically ok with this list, some comments below.
> . . .3. Staging mechanism for quality control of website production. . .
I assume the Forrested docs will be generated by ant or a by script from the
current CVS, isn't this sufficient? This can be reproduced by all of us and
could be the "staging version" I think, assuming the docs generation process
is well defined (including Forrest version, see below).
Are you thinking of a staging website instead?
http://cvs.apache.org/~cocoonCommittersAccount/cocoon-staging?
Also, as Forrest is still moving quickly I think we will need a way to use a
frozen version of Forrest during a docs "generation/check/staging/publish"
cycle, which might last a few days if several people check the docs.
Otherwise changes to Forrest might cause unwanted changes to the published
docs during the cycle.
How do we do this? Will we define the CVS tag or release date of the Forrest
version to use?
-Bertrand
Re: [PROPOSAL] Use Forrest to build Cocoon docs
Posted by Diana Shannon <sh...@apache.org>.
On Friday, November 15, 2002, at 05:16 AM, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
>> Thanks to you and the Forrest team for your first-rate work!
>
> Actually, you're my doc hero :-)
Gee, thanks Ken (blush) ... but ... anyone who contributes even a
single doc is **my** doc hero.
Diana
Re: [PROPOSAL] Use Forrest to build Cocoon docs
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Diana Shannon wrote:
>
> On Thursday, November 14, 2002, at 07:54 PM, David Crossley wrote:
>
>> Another week has gone by and still no-one is interested
>> in discussing this issue.
>
> Sorry, David. I'm very interested. I'm halfway through a trial run of
> the process (using existing release cvs) and will report back here with
> files/links/impressions later today. I'm also available to make the
> transition happen asap.
Wowowow! :-D
> Thanks to you and the Forrest team for your first-rate work!
Actually, you're my doc hero :-)
I still have to understand how you managed to make all this effort
moving and keep it up!
Kudos! :-)
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [PROPOSAL] Use Forrest to build Cocoon docs
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
The Wiki page at ForrestProposal
http://outerthought.net/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=ForrestProposal
is now getting quite advanced. Thanks to Diana for the recent
re-arrangement and fine-tuning. Today i added a few general
comments and two new items 15-16. I also added a ToDo item
about the next stage.
--David
Re: [PROPOSAL] Use Forrest to build Cocoon docs
Posted by Diana Shannon <sh...@apache.org>.
On Friday, November 15, 2002, at 08:57 PM, David Crossley wrote:
>
>> I'm halfway through a trial run of
>> the process (using existing release cvs) and will report
>> back here with
>> files/links/impressions later today.
I need a bit more time. I'm trying to document what I do to save the
time of any interested Cocoon committer who wants to replicate it (so
that they can understand the implications of the transition (via
existing cvs or separate module). Perhaps it will make a nice How-
To/Case Study for Forrest (expanding on what Jeff wrote under "Seeding
an Existing Project" (http://xml.apache.org/forrest/your-
project.html#N1008F).
I also plan to meet Stefano in Boston today, weather permitting, so I'm
afraid this work, almost finished, will need to wait until Monday.
>
> Do you mean a trial run of Forrest itself? You will be pleased.
No, not only...
> Or do you mean a trial run of our old doc10-to-doc11
> transition process of Cocoon CVS? We need to fix this.
Fixed, although I'm sure it will benefit from your tweaks...
> The old Forrest scratchpad is broken. Nicola Ken has been
> working on xml-forrest/src/resources/convert/* and we need
> to put the old Cocoon stuff in there.
Ok, I'll place files I don't know what to do with there.
I'm using Cocoon's existing cvs's and adding all relevant Forrest files
to it (forrest.properties, etc.) instead of the reverse (grabbing xdocs
and adding them to a simple Forrest project, as we did before). I'm
using the source of our old scratchpad build targets and have edited
them to work with the new ant, build process, etc. I'm building the
result for both head and release docs which I'll post on my site.
It's all ***quite*** impressive Forresters!
Diana
Re: [PROPOSAL] Use Forrest to build Cocoon docs
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Diana Shannon wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
>
> > Another week has gone by and still no-one is interested
> > in discussing this issue.
>
> Sorry, David. I'm very interested.
Sorry from me. I think that i became a little frustrated ...
... should have left out the "interested in" bit. I know that
you and others are.
> I'm halfway through a trial run of
> the process (using existing release cvs) and will report
> back here with
> files/links/impressions later today.
Do you mean a trial run of Forrest itself? You will be pleased.
Or do you mean a trial run of our old doc10-to-doc11
transition process of Cocoon CVS? We need to fix this.
The old Forrest scratchpad is broken. Nicola Ken has been
working on xml-forrest/src/resources/convert/* and we need
to put the old Cocoon stuff in there.
> I'm also available to make the transition happen asap.
Brilliant. I can help out a little too.
> Thanks to you and the Forrest team for your first-rate work!
Ditto.
--David
Re: [PROPOSAL] Use Forrest to build Cocoon docs
Posted by Diana Shannon <sh...@apache.org>.
On Thursday, November 14, 2002, at 07:54 PM, David Crossley wrote:
> Another week has gone by and still no-one is interested
> in discussing this issue.
Sorry, David. I'm very interested. I'm halfway through a trial run of
the process (using existing release cvs) and will report back here with
files/links/impressions later today. I'm also available to make the
transition happen asap.
Thanks to you and the Forrest team for your first-rate work!
Diana
Re: [PROPOSAL] Use Forrest to build Cocoon docs
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Another week has gone by and still no-one is interested
in discussing this issue. So i just sent out a call
to the three important lists to ask people to discuss
it here. Perhaps new blood will help.
Here is the current list of dot-points from the Wiki:
http://outerthought.net/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=ForrestProposal
----
1. Forrest to assist with building Cocoon system documentation.
2. Forrest to automatically (or by manual trigger) generate the
website at xml.apache.org/cocoon/
3. Staging mechanism for quality control of website production
4. Cocoon xdocs need to be transformed to document-v11 DTD.
Forrest has stylesheets, DTDs, anttasks, and XML validation to
assist with this. However those automation facilities still need
some work.
5. After Cocoon xdocs are sucessfully transformed, the xdocs in
CVS will be updated to be document-v11 type.
6. Simultaneously with #5, the Cocoon XSLT stylesheets, DTDs,
and perhaps sitemaps will need to be updated to reflect the
document-v11 from Forrest.
7. Expect a team of people to help, especially during the
transition of xdocs.
8. The documents that are published by Forrest need to be
subsequently checked-in to the xml-site CVS.
9. ... please add more items here ...
----
Re: [PROPOSAL] Use Forrest to build Cocoon docs
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Here is the current list of dot-points from the Wiki:
http://outerthought.net/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=ForrestProposal
----
Outline of requirements and issues
1. Forrest to assist with building Cocoon system documentation.
(Fixme: Find a link to an overview of the Forrest processes.)
2. Forrest to automatically generate the website at
xml.apache.org/cocoon/
3. Staging mechanism for quality control of website production
4. Cocoon xdocs need to be transformed to document-v11 DTD.
Forrest has stylesheets, DTDs, anttasks, and XML validation to
assist with this. However those automation facilities still need
some work.
5. After Cocoon xdocs are sucessfully transformed, the xdocs in
CVS will be updated to be document-v11 type.
6. Simultaneously with #5, the Cocoon XSLT stylesheets, DTDs,
and perhaps sitemaps will need to be updated to reflect the
document-v11 from Forrest.
7. Expect a team of people to help, especially during the
transition of xdocs.
8. ... please add more items here ...
----
--David
Re: [PROPOSAL] Use Forrest to build Cocoon docs
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Diana Shannon wrote:
> Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> >David Crossley wrote:
> >> . . .
> >> I have been wondering for some time if Wiki would
> >> be a good way to develop a proposal. Perhaps a mix
> >> of cocoon-docs discussion and Wiki would work.
> >> . . .
> >
> > I think so. One may ask on the list about changing some part
> > of the proposal that resides on the Wiki and, once agreement
> > is reached, do the changes on the wiki.
> >
> > Using the whiteboard metaphor, the list would be the talk
> > that's going on in the room and the wiki would be the
> > whiteboard itself.
>
> I agree. If no one else volunteers, I'll post the first draft by early
> next week. I still need some time to catch up with the latest version
> of Forrest.
Beat you to it. Here is the initial stuff:
http://outerthought.net/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=ForrestProposal
--David
Re: [PROPOSAL] Use Forrest to build Cocoon docs
Posted by Diana Shannon <sh...@apache.org>.
On Friday, November 1, 2002, at 12:35 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Friday 01 November 2002 05:02, David Crossley wrote:
>> . . .
>> I have been wondering for some time if Wiki would
>> be a good way to develop a proposal. Perhaps a mix
>> of cocoon-docs discussion and Wiki would work.
>> . . .
>
> I think so. One may ask on the list about changing some part of the
> proposal
> that resides on the Wiki and, once agreement is reached, do the changes
> on
> the wiki.
>
> Using the whiteboard metaphor, the list would be the talk that's going
> on in
> the room and the wiki would be the whiteboard itself.
I agree. If no one else volunteers, I'll post the first draft by early
next week. I still need some time to catch up with the latest version
of Forrest.
Diana
Re: [PROPOSAL] Use Forrest to build Cocoon docs
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
On Friday 01 November 2002 05:02, David Crossley wrote:
>. . .
> I have been wondering for some time if Wiki would
> be a good way to develop a proposal. Perhaps a mix
> of cocoon-docs discussion and Wiki would work.
>. . .
I think so. One may ask on the list about changing some part of the proposal
that resides on the Wiki and, once agreement is reached, do the changes on
the wiki.
Using the whiteboard metaphor, the list would be the talk that's going on in
the room and the wiki would be the whiteboard itself.
-Bertrand