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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org> on 2001/10/31 02:48:37 UTC
Small mailing list fix...
I just had a report from a guy who had problems posting from some **********
M$ client (looks like an enterprise version of Outlook for Windoze).
Basically, no matter what he does, the thing keeps sending messages with
content-type set to multipart/alternative with two attachments, one
text/plain and one text/html...
As a cautionary note, now we're accepting multipart/alternative, stripping
out mime bodyparts with content-type set to text/html, text/rtf,
text/enriched, text/x-vcard, multipart/related and application/vcard.
And if after stripping nothing is left, the message bounce...
Please let me know if you see HTML messages here or there. Thanks! :)
Pier
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Re: Comment for Apache.org
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
Frans,
Jakarta has a Project Management Committee, much the same as XML. We are
all run by the Apache Software Foundation, and have the same ground
rules.
http://apache.org/foundation/roles.html
There is a private PMC mailing list, but it is rarely used. Most
communication takes place here, on the General List.
Like XML, all of the Jakarta products are run as Meritocracies. One
committer, one vote. If one committer is busy, any other committer can
step in and do whatever is necessary. There is no formal lead for any of
our products. At least three committers must approve a formal release
before it can be made.
Jakarta has been very popular, and there are thousands of people already
involved with this. We appreciate your support, and hope you will be
able to contribute to one of our products some time.
For more about Jakarta, please visit
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/roles.html
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/guidelines.html
-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
-- Tel +1 716 737-3463
-- http://www.husted.com/struts/
Frans Thamura wrote:
>
> Dear All,,
>
> Do you know where the list for comment the apache.org web site..
>
> Is there a team that responsible for managing the projects of apache
> projects.
>
> Like in Apache XML may be there is a team that manage that.
>
> I have been working several years in IT, and managing the project. There is
> a methodology to make a project clear..
>
> I cannot find it in Apache..
>
> Because as a model of open source development for volunteer.. Apache's
> project can lost his leader or creator.. may be he is busy, or interest in
> several project.
>
> but as an Apache.. you must responsible for managing this..
>
> sample..
>
> Cocoon is create by Stefano, what happen if he is very very busy.. who must
> handle this project. And who will responsible for next release.. only
> stefano or everyone.. who interest.. with VOTE of course..
>
> I love a clear project. and it will easy to understand and follow.. trust
> me.. there will be thousands people involve with this.. if everyone can
> understand and use it easily..
>
> Honestly, Apache project is very great.. i love it.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Frans
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Re: Comment for Apache.org
Posted by Tod Thomas <tt...@chubb.com>.
Ted Husted wrote:
>
> I sometimes wonder if he is not employing reverse psychology on the rest
> of it. For example, it was Jon's flames that gave birth to the Commons
> (like a Phoenix rising from the ashes). He said that saying some of us
> weren't playing nice with others -- so we set up a playpen.
...or maybe its the attention he gets from the comments that provoke his
defense...
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Re: Comment for Apache.org
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On 12/10/01 9:08 AM, "Ted Husted" <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> It is admittedly not a perfect universe, but I think the Jakarta
> Universe would be poorer without Jon Stevens in our midst. Some things
> are a package deal, and Jon seems to be one of them.
>
> I sometimes wonder if he is not employing reverse psychology on the rest
> of it. For example, it was Jon's flames that gave birth to the Commons
> (like a Phoenix rising from the ashes). He said that saying some of us
> weren't playing nice with others -- so we set up a playpen.
Weeellllll.... Not exactly sure about that... :)
>
> lloyd wrote:
>>
>>> Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some logical
>>
>> Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
>> could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.
>>
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>
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--
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System and Software Consulting
Be a giant. Take giant steps. Do giant things...
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RE: Comment for Apache.org
Posted by Paulo Gaspar <pa...@krankikom.de>.
Yes, Jon could improve the package deal a lot if he wanted (just by
cutting the minus side of it) but it does not look like it is going
to happen.
And I still prefer having him around than the alternative.
Just my 2 (Euro) cents.
Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Husted [mailto:husted@apache.org]
> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 3:08 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Comment for Apache.org
>
>
> It is admittedly not a perfect universe, but I think the Jakarta
> Universe would be poorer without Jon Stevens in our midst. Some things
> are a package deal, and Jon seems to be one of them.
>
> I sometimes wonder if he is not employing reverse psychology on the rest
> of it. For example, it was Jon's flames that gave birth to the Commons
> (like a Phoenix rising from the ashes). He said that saying some of us
> weren't playing nice with others -- so we set up a playpen.
>
> lloyd wrote:
> >
> > > Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made
> some logical
> >
> > Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
> > could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
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Re: Comment for Apache.org
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
It is admittedly not a perfect universe, but I think the Jakarta
Universe would be poorer without Jon Stevens in our midst. Some things
are a package deal, and Jon seems to be one of them.
I sometimes wonder if he is not employing reverse psychology on the rest
of it. For example, it was Jon's flames that gave birth to the Commons
(like a Phoenix rising from the ashes). He said that saying some of us
weren't playing nice with others -- so we set up a playpen.
lloyd wrote:
>
> > Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some logical
>
> Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
> could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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Re: Comment for Apache.org
Posted by Scott Tavares <st...@home.com>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "robert burrell donkin" <ro...@mac.com>
<snip>
> if you want things to change, then you need to do something about it (am i
> sounding like jon? ;) if you were to answer newbie questions - to the best
> of your ability - then jon wouldn't have to make time to answer them.
<snip>
Who ever said jon HAD to answer anyone? If he can't answer with some
resemblance of a mature adult instead of like a snotty nosed 12yo brat he
should just shut the hell up and say nothing. But just like a snotty nosed
12yo brat it seems he doesn't have the mental capacity to help himself and
therefore needs to be treated like one.
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Re: Comment for Apache.org
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 11 Dec 2001, robert burrell donkin wrote:
>
> if you want things to change, then you need to do something about it (am i
> sounding like jon? ;) if you were to answer newbie questions - to the best
> of your ability - then jon wouldn't have to make time to answer them.
> there's something in it for you too, since you'll learn far more by
> answering questions than you will by lurking. everybody would be a little
> happier.
>
This version of this same old thread isn't going to accomplish anything.
However, as a person who has been around Apache for a long time (including
working with Jon directly on Apache JServ), as a person who contributes a
lot of code also, and as a person who *does* take the time to do what
Robert suggests and answers user questions (striving to do so in a manner
that is polite and respectful, and *usually* succeeding at that), I'm
going to add one and only one comment.
I vastly respect Jon's contributions to Apache -- but I'm disappointed
that he doesn't seem to care that his approach to email makes the overall
community smaller than it otherwise would be (due to people not being
willing to deal with his style).
Now, I'm going to go back and start writing some more code (and answering
some more user questions). I suggest we all do the same.
> - robert
>
Craig McClanahan
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Re: Comment for Apache.org
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@mac.com>.
On Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 03:19 PM, lloyd wrote:
>> In my opinion, if you haven't contributed anything, then you are
>> just leeching off the hard work of the many individuals behind the
>> Jakarta project
>
>
> What does one's relative standing in the Jakarta project have to do with
> how you conduct yourself with other project members - or even "leeches",
> for that matter? It's not like anyone here stepped out of the womb with
> code to contribute. Presumably they were users first, and then became
> contributors.
jon provides training (in his version) of the way. jon's training methods
might be considered harsh by many but they are educational. people
contribute in many ways, not just by coding. for example, if you'd
answered the original question (before jon had to) then this war would
never have started and the original poster would have gone away a little
bit happier. instead, you decided to post a personal attack on jon.
personal attacks are easy. writing good answers is hard and takes time.
> I have no idea what your past contributions have been, and it isn't
> relevant. The question is: how much talent have you driven away with
> your insults?
development at apache is very much in the open. having to take
responsibility for your contribution - whether it's code or mail posted to
the mailing lists - is very much part of the deal. if you can't take the
heat, then get out of the kitchen.
> I don't expect anything to change, of course, so I guess the best
> recourse is to offer a suggestion to your defenders: please, when this
> happens in the future, contact the original poster immediately and
> explain things.
if you want things to change, then you need to do something about it (am i
sounding like jon? ;) if you were to answer newbie questions - to the best
of your ability - then jon wouldn't have to make time to answer them.
there's something in it for you too, since you'll learn far more by
answering questions than you will by lurking. everybody would be a little
happier.
- robert
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Re: Comment for Apache.org
Posted by lloyd <su...@twilight-systems.com>.
> In my opinion, if you haven't contributed anything, then you are
> just leeching off the hard work of the many individuals behind the
> Jakarta project
What does one's relative standing in the Jakarta project have to do with
how you conduct yourself with other project members - or even "leeches",
for that matter? It's not like anyone here stepped out of the womb with
code to contribute. Presumably they were users first, and then became
contributors.
I have no idea what your past contributions have been, and it isn't
relevant. The question is: how much talent have you driven away with
your insults?
I don't expect anything to change, of course, so I guess the best
recourse is to offer a suggestion to your defenders: please, when this
happens in the future, contact the original poster immediately and
explain things.
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RE: Comment for Apache.org
Posted by Paulo Gaspar <pa...@krankikom.de>.
Man!
This is even worse then MY flame wars with Jon!
=;o)
Have fun,
Paulo
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Re: Comment for Apache.org
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 12/10/01 6:14 PM, "Scott Tavares" <st...@home.com> wrote:
> You also know that I haven't contributed to the Jakarta project in close to
> three years now because you insulted me one too many times.
Lame excuse. Life is full of people you may not like. If you use that as
your excuse for not participating in things, then you might as well not
leave your house either.
The Jakarta project also isn't just me, there are more than enough projects
here that I don't participate in at all and since this is a Meritocracy
founded around the developers, your voice (and complaints) do not have any
weight unless you actually contribute something. People need to realize that
this is not a democracy.
In my opinion, if you haven't contributed anything, then you are just
leeching off the hard work of the many individuals behind the Jakarta
project and using emails from me that you may not like as your excuse. I
find that far more offensive than anything I could flame you about.
-jon
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Re: Comment for Apache.org
Posted by Scott Tavares <st...@home.com>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Stevens" <jo...@latchkey.com>
To: <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: Comment for Apache.org
> on 12/10/01 4:43 PM, "Scott Tavares" <st...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > Nope!!! jon is a complete ASSHOLE!!!!! If YAFF happens it is jon's
fault!
> > Put the responsibility where it belongs... on jon. It's him that keeps
> > creating these commotions needlessly.
ttp://jakarta.apache.org/site/jon.html>
>
> p.s. Scott, I love you too.
>
> -jon
>
>
Yes jon, I know how much you love me. My reply to the link is this: Why
should
I contribute anything if all i'm going to get is insulted for my efforts?
You also know that I haven't contributed to the Jakarta project in close to
three years now because you insulted me one too many times.
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Re: Comment for Apache.org
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 12/10/01 4:43 PM, "Scott Tavares" <st...@home.com> wrote:
> Nope!!! jon is a complete ASSHOLE!!!!! If YAFF happens it is jon's fault!
> Put the responsibility where it belongs... on jon. It's him that keeps
> creating these commotions needlessly.
<http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jon.html>
p.s. Scott, I love you too.
-jon
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Re: Comment for Apache.org
Posted by Scott Tavares <st...@home.com>.
Nope!!! jon is a complete ASSHOLE!!!!! If YAFF happens it is jon's fault!
Put the responsibility where it belongs... on jon. It's him that keeps
creating these commotions needlessly.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Berin Loritsch" <bl...@apache.org>
To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 8:28 AM
Subject: Re: Comment for Apache.org
> lloyd wrote:
>
> >>Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some
logical
> >>
> >
> > Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
> > could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.
>
>
> Not again.
>
> People, even if you don't like Jon, can we just let this one go please?
> I don't want to see YAFF (Yet Another Flame Fest) on netiquette.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
> deserve neither liberty nor safety."
> - Benjamin Franklin
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
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Re: Comment for Apache.org
Posted by Punky Tse <pu...@yahoo.com>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Berin Loritsch" <bl...@apache.org>
> lloyd wrote:
>
> >>Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some
logical
> >>
> >
> > Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
> > could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.
>
>
> Not again.
>
> People, even if you don't like Jon, can we just let this one go please?
> I don't want to see YAFF (Yet Another Flame Fest) on netiquette.
>
>
Never mind, if people want to flame with jon, just go for it. But at the
end of the day, they will learn *a lot* ;-)
I'd seen this before, in jserv, tomcat-dev and now general list, people had
flamed with jon and still stayed in the list is now getting more mature(and
so does jon), and still willing to contribute to the community with their
technical excellence.
I got this impression is that a few months ago, while jon was on a flame
with another guy, one contributor/committer humorously stated jon was "still
a pain in the *ss". That contributor/committer had a endless flame with jon
before (may be almost a year before?). But at that moment, I felt that the
two guys seems to have certain respect with each other.... ;-)
And I would say, seeing a true story like this, it was a great joy.
Punky
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Re: Comment for Apache.org
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
lloyd wrote:
>>Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some logical
>>
>
> Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
> could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.
Not again.
People, even if you don't like Jon, can we just let this one go please?
I don't want to see YAFF (Yet Another Flame Fest) on netiquette.
--
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Comment for Apache.org
Posted by Endre Stølsvik <En...@Stolsvik.com>.
On 10 Dec 2001, Kevin A. Burton - burtonator wrote:
| Give jon a break. With all the hard work he has done he at least deserves the
| benefit of the doubt on all these e-mails.
What about the times when there is no doubt? When he just behaves totally
assholeish?
|
| When you come close to 1/5th the amount of work he has done for Apache then you
| can judge.
This is the stuff I just cannot understand. Being a good coder and good
committer actually gives you the _right_ to be an a.... .. not nice to
other people on the Jakarta email lists? People that come here for the
first time, doing the wrong thing, posting to the wrong list or something,
they should only expect to be flogged hard by Jon, right? Because he has
earned the right to be rude?
I don't get that.
You jakarta folks should post this on your website, something like: "After
serving the Apache and Jakarta community for about 5 years, you earn the
right to be an asshole. This not only gives you unlimited possibilities to
hurl shit into all Jakarta email lists, but your fellow Jakarta members
will even defend your opinions and your new-earned rights to the bitter
end."
But this time I don't think Jon was that bad, though.. Just a bit rude.
Not a complete asshole, as many other times..
--
Mvh,
Endre
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Re: Comment for Apache.org
Posted by "Kevin A. Burton - burtonator" <bu...@openprivacy.org>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
lloyd <su...@twilight-systems.com> writes:
> > Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some logical
>
> Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
> could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.
Give jon a break. With all the hard work he has done he at least deserves the
benefit of the doubt on all these e-mails.
When you come close to 1/5th the amount of work he has done for Apache then you
can judge.
I have no problem with you expressing your viewpoint but calling jon an
"*sshole" was over the top.
If you don't like it, unsubscribe.
Kevin
- --
Kevin A. Burton ( burton@apache.org, burton@openprivacy.org, burtonator@acm.org )
Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
Jabber - burtonator@jabber.org, Web - http://relativity.yi.org/
A Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer is to computing what a McDonalds
Certified Food Specialist is to fine cuisine.
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Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt
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RE: Comment for Apache.org
Posted by Gerhard Froehlich <g-...@gmx.de>.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: lloyd [mailto:subscr001@twilight-systems.com]
>Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 1:43 PM
>To: Jakarta General List
>Subject: Re: Comment for Apache.org
>
>
>
>> Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some logical
>
>Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
>could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.
>
Great mate, flame on :-(((
Gerhard
--------------------------------------------
Give me ambiguity or give me something else.
--------------------------------------------
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Re: Comment for Apache.org
Posted by lloyd <su...@twilight-systems.com>.
> Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some logical
Having lurked on this list for awhile, I'd say it would be great if you
could get through one e-mail exchange without being an asshole.
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Re: Comment for Apache.org
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
Wow. It would be really great if you wrote an email that made some logical
sense.
-jon
on 12/9/01 3:57 AM, "Frans Thamura" <ft...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear All,,
>
> Do you know where the list for comment the apache.org web site..
>
> Is there a team that responsible for managing the projects of apache
> projects.
>
> Like in Apache XML may be there is a team that manage that.
>
> I have been working several years in IT, and managing the project. There is
> a methodology to make a project clear..
>
> I cannot find it in Apache..
>
> Because as a model of open source development for volunteer.. Apache's
> project can lost his leader or creator.. may be he is busy, or interest in
> several project.
>
> but as an Apache.. you must responsible for managing this..
>
> sample..
>
> Cocoon is create by Stefano, what happen if he is very very busy.. who must
> handle this project. And who will responsible for next release.. only
> stefano or everyone.. who interest.. with VOTE of course..
>
> I love a clear project. and it will easy to understand and follow.. trust
> me.. there will be thousands people involve with this.. if everyone can
> understand and use it easily..
>
> Honestly, Apache project is very great.. i love it.
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Frans
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Comment for Apache.org
Posted by Frans Thamura <ft...@yahoo.com>.
Dear All,,
Do you know where the list for comment the apache.org web site..
Is there a team that responsible for managing the projects of apache
projects.
Like in Apache XML may be there is a team that manage that.
I have been working several years in IT, and managing the project. There is
a methodology to make a project clear..
I cannot find it in Apache..
Because as a model of open source development for volunteer.. Apache's
project can lost his leader or creator.. may be he is busy, or interest in
several project.
but as an Apache.. you must responsible for managing this..
sample..
Cocoon is create by Stefano, what happen if he is very very busy.. who must
handle this project. And who will responsible for next release.. only
stefano or everyone.. who interest.. with VOTE of course..
I love a clear project. and it will easy to understand and follow.. trust
me.. there will be thousands people involve with this.. if everyone can
understand and use it easily..
Honestly, Apache project is very great.. i love it.
Thanks.
Frans
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RE: Small mailing list fix...
Posted by Conor MacNeill <co...@cortexebusiness.com.au>.
Pier,
I had a similar report from a user wanting to send mail to ant-user.
I referred him to this page
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/micromail.html
Conor
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:pier@betaversion.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, 31 October 2001 12:49 PM
> To: Jakarta General List; infrastructure@apache.org
> Subject: Small mailing list fix...
>
>
> I just had a report from a guy who had problems posting from some
> **********
> M$ client (looks like an enterprise version of Outlook for Windoze).
> Basically, no matter what he does, the thing keeps sending messages with
> content-type set to multipart/alternative with two attachments, one
> text/plain and one text/html...
>
> As a cautionary note, now we're accepting multipart/alternative, stripping
> out mime bodyparts with content-type set to text/html, text/rtf,
> text/enriched, text/x-vcard, multipart/related and application/vcard.
>
> And if after stripping nothing is left, the message bounce...
>
> Please let me know if you see HTML messages here or there. Thanks! :)
>
> Pier
>
>
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RE: Small mailing list fix...
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@thought.co.uk>.
If its relevant ..
An RTF message has snuck onto the James user list.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:pier@betaversion.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 1:49 AM
> To: Jakarta General List; infrastructure@apache.org
> Subject: Small mailing list fix...
>
>
> I just had a report from a guy who had problems posting from some
> **********
> M$ client (looks like an enterprise version of Outlook for Windoze).
> Basically, no matter what he does, the thing keeps sending messages with
> content-type set to multipart/alternative with two attachments, one
> text/plain and one text/html...
>
> As a cautionary note, now we're accepting multipart/alternative, stripping
> out mime bodyparts with content-type set to text/html, text/rtf,
> text/enriched, text/x-vcard, multipart/related and application/vcard.
>
> And if after stripping nothing is left, the message bounce...
>
> Please let me know if you see HTML messages here or there. Thanks! :)
>
> Pier
>
>
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